Absolutely. You have done nothing but to help and advise me. Didn't mean to throw shade or come across as accusing or anything. We are all exhausted. Love ya

I think this pretty much sums up the dilemma and difficulties of forum moderation. It's a task I've had in the past, and you can never please everyone. In any given emergency, some will accuse you of acting too soon or too harshly, others will say you took to long and didn't do enough. Some want anything and everything to be fine for debate no matter how contraversial, others want every little topic they don't like (for whatever reason, genuine or ridiculous) instantly banned from discussion. I long ago came to the conclusion that if about 50% are more or less OK with how things went and the rest are split about 50/50 with varying degrees of 'too much' or 'not enough', you probably got it about right.

Additionally, we should never forget hindsight is (usually!) 20/20. How we look back on an event, with all the should/could/would have done differently analysis, can never capture the turmoil of the being in the middle of it as it actually happens. Yes, it is VERY important to look back with a constructively critical eye and see what could be improved in case such a scenario happens again, even though we hope it won't. Being better prepared is always good. However, with the best will in the world you can't be prepared for everything, and there are always some things that will catch you completely off guard and you end up having to figure out what to do on the fly.

Personally I think this was handled reasonably well all things considered. Communication from the outset could perhaps have been better, and may have avoided some of the misunderstandings about why links were removed whilst the story was checked out. Don't get me wrong, sexual assault is appalling and I'm very glad the perpertrator has been outed and removed from UMD and hope a lot more consequences head their way too, but when an accusation like this comes along you do HAVE to be certain it's not mistaken identity. A note to the effect of "This is all news to us and we're looking in to it, please bear with us whilst we check the facts" would have let folks know something was going on behind the scenes and maybe avoided the unwarrented accusations of a cover up. And once it was verified, a quick comment on how long it might take to sort the complicated behind the scenes admin side of things (as I know that stuff takes time) could have helped also. Some of this may have happened, of course - I'm still catchng up - so my apologies if I've missed stuff!

As to allowing discussion and debate about it, I think that was the correct decision. No, it's not been easy, but personally I think it would have been worse to close the threads, remove the accounts etc. and just make an annoucement about the ban. Talking about this stuff is hard, but not talking about it leaves too much open to speculation. Because the debate was had, we now know a lot more about how much lying was done, that it wasn't a minor or isolated incident, that a total disconnect with that person is more than appropriate and not an kneejerk overeaction, that it hasn't been kept quiet or overed up. And there was also a community consensus reached on how to handle the tricky case of those who had unwittingly worked with him in order to produce their own content, plus a few other ill-minded individuals have been identified and booted.

I will add that I have no personal axe to grind either way here. I'm a sensual wammer, not sexual, so purchasing videos isn't really a thing for me. I hang out here because there aren't that many places on the internet where people actually understand why your idea of a fun relaxing evening involves half a dozen pies and a bucket of porridge rather than going out on the town. However, sexual assault of any kind is always inexcusable, and I'm glad this has been dealt with openly and swiftly. No model (or anyone) should ever suffer because someone they are supposed to be able to trust enough to put themselves in a very vulnerable position with can't draw the line between fantasy and reality.

Finally, get some sleep MM!

I think it's worth mentioning , just food for thought, Leon has been producing for a very long time. All this, inevitably, would have come out eventually. Too many contacts, associations and fans for that not to happen. It may have taken longer - but it would have happened.
As out of control as this has got (mainly due to some inflammatory posters), isn't it better that this has been limited to a handful of specific and specifically moderated posts?

Please don't misunderstand me - a great deal of hurt and damage has come from this, but I feel like this could have been exponentially worse if it had been left to gossip and rumour

Last last last point - I promise...
I (unfortunately) feel I need to say this. As a straight male in a solid, long term relationship... we're not all like that.
Most of us can separate fantasy from reality. And there's absolutely no way we'd put anyone in a position that they wouldn't want to be in. The "fantasy" is to find someone who wants to play with our kinks, but for most of us that'll never happen. It took 40 years for me.
The last thing I would ever want is to make anyone uncomfortable. If you're open minded enough to want to explore it then awesome. If not, then happy days.
I would never push myself in any way on anyone. Don't be arrogant, never assume, and be thankful for what and who you are.

Jim... out

Alright, everyone, I suggest we take a week off, following this ordeal. Let things settle down, everyone who's invested at all, take a mental health break. Just let the site run on autopilot for a little while. (Messmaster!)
This disaster has been hard on everyone, we need to go outside and get some fresh air and sunshine, alright?

Content Warning: rape, violence against women, etc.
(BTW, I hate referring to groups like 'women think this' - it's like when people say "the females" * shudder * but I am going to do so for simplicity here, so please forgive that)

What @kelseyrose said was fire (and too long to quote! :bahaha. Reflecting the situation to help people understand was great BUT there was something missing from what she said; some basic understanding that comes from her (and most women's) lived experience...

@34gate swiftly and ably demonstrated that [typically male] shortfall of understanding:

"In my experience, most men on the receiving end of this kind of thing would even enjoy it if it was a woman doing the touching.

Personally, me and most straight or bi guys I know wouldn't be complaining if I found myself "cornered" by a woman boss. But that's just me. I'm not trying to say it's the same if ypu reverse the sexes. It's not. My point was it wasn't an effective thought experiment because a man amd woman would react very differently to that behavior."



(Christ! It's like he was almost self-aware for a second there!) He is correct that men may not understand where women would, but the question, my incel friend, is WHY that difference? (He will think it socio-politically inherent or biologically determined, where the answer is much more straightforward)

For men, whose biggest problem in this arena is loneliness and the inability to fulfil their sexual needs, the idea of a sexual advance is welcome news, and spurning it would be foolish; and that's basically where this situation ends for them.

Here's the bit that all the men with this point of view miss: https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/statistics-sexual-violence/ and https://niaendingviolence.org.uk/get-informed/domestic-and-sexual-violence-statistics/ (and it's about the same in other countries, if you google!)

It's the concept of threat that's missing for him/them. They mentally only go as far as the sexual proposition and no further!

To many those figures are a surprise. I mean, tell me honestly, if those levels were happening to men do you not think it'd regularly be the number one item on every news channel??!!

"It can't really be that bad?!!" - Oh yeah? What do you do to protect yourself from rape/sexual assault when you leave the house? If you ask most men what they did to protect themselves from rape today when they left the house, you'll receive a load of confused faces. Yet for women that is the all-pervasive reality! So, yes, it is that bad! You're in an epidemic of sexual violence! It's just not happening to you.

BTW, those figures are often not clear about the difference between rape and sexual assault because definitions vary per country but I can tell you that the psychological damage is the same! Sexual assault is not 'rape lite'! The patriarchy sees PIV as rape and anything else as 'sexual assault' and therefore lesser. Check out: She Stole My Voice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uFKF9ieGyw&ab_channel=glasgowlesbian), a documentary about rape amongst lesbians, for a contrary point of view on that one!


For women, sexual advances often lead to threats, harassment, intimidation, violence and sometimes death! It's at epidemic levels all around you and it covers every second of their existence. With that as a backdrop, how do you think it feels:

* When men refuse to believe it of another man
* When men take the side of [yet another] male engaging in abusive action by saying "he was having a hard time" (Women have hard times too, so that's another excuse to protect the patriarchy!)
* When that attitude from men forces women into a position where they feel like they have to offer IRL accounts of their own as a plea for you to believe/help.
* When men end up casually discussing women's trauma
* When men grade that trauma! Discuss whether they believe it or not, or; whether it really matters! (Honestly, it'd be like standing next to the life ring whilst a drowning man shouts for help and critiquing his swimming style!)
* When they nitpick and dismiss women's concerns entirely over the tiniest little thing and ignore that overwhelming body of evidence in front of them! (I work in logic, don't test me!)
* When men then refuse to act, no matter what! Always demanding some higher standard of proof than can possibly be supplied, just so they can once again acquit themselves of any responsibility to do anything to help. The status quo suits them just fine!
* When men only focus on the 'honour loss' of the deed and not the long-term psychological damage (PTSD, anxiety, depression, etc.) that sexual assault causes. (i.e. what they consider the 'value of a woman' but not women themselves)
* when men don't see the power men in authority have over women - like how much power Leon had over that model - and how much damage they can do to someone socially/financially/psychologically with that power!
* When men fail to understand how the patriarchy treats sex or adult workers and how they are disproportionately vulnerable!
* When men don't listen to women because they've been raised to believe that they are the 'in charge' people. Women are f*cking experts in this (sadly!), as they lived a lifetime in it - but, oh look! Here's 'some guy' and he has 'an opinion' - let's make sure we carefully listen to that though!


Now do you understand why the vehemency from 'these feminists'?! Why 'women these days' are so incandescently angry! Does 'Me Too' make sense now?? Does the anger from some women about how this was handled make sense??

"But not all women behave like this! Some say they're fine with it and that's just the way it is?!" - My answer to that is "An entire lifetime of trauma can affect people massively and their responses can be diverse, including various forms of being 'adaptive' (think Stockholm Syndrome)"

So there, for any men as confused as he by the attitudes of women, is your answer to his point and why he didn't understand Kelsey's post. (Although I don't reckon he tried too hard!)

---

And no, I'm no virtue signalling or mass-white-knighting! I've spent a lifetime watching this BS continue whilst people minimise it! It has affected me and people I love all too often! I'm 44 years old and we're having similar conversations that we had about it in 1982! The patriarchy hurts and sometimes pushes men to their deaths; it kills women en masse! This record needs to change!

(I hate this bit because it's back to the male gaze again but it needs saying) Men, it is in our interests to address this issue properly! ^^This is why you can't find women to have fun with! Collectively we've made a 'hostile environment' for them and you just don't see it! We need to make a commitment to listen to women and support them. Help them build the world *they* want, where they are safe[r] and feel trusted/supported. (You may even find you like their version of a properly run community!)

Most of the incel-types and misogynists struggle to deal with the world. They are often in a world of pain themselves and feel that no one is there to help them and no one cares. All they hear about is society talking about other people being in need and them being the bad people. They're not ready to receive information as everything is a threat to them. They are not in a fit state to drive [this community], so don't let them have the loudest voice!

---

Sidenote (because I just have to!): @34gate has clearly never been sexually harassed because it's not what he thinks! Just like rape, it's not the sex, it's the power! It's the fact that that person can turn everyone in the office against you. That they can stop your chances of promotion; that they can affect your continued employment; that that could cost you your home, your relationship, your children. And you have no choice in it! Every day to know that you are now 'owned' by them. You have to perform as they wish or they'll get you removed.Psychologically that causes depression, anxiety, etc. It's devastating to people's lives and it can happen to the strongest of people!. (My mum is an Organisational Psychologist - this has been her life for nearly 40 years - trust me, I know!)

---

PS Don't you love a website with no markdown or formatting options that doesn't allow 'a lot of all-caps'. Gee, I guess I can make serious points with smileys then. Hello early 2000s!!


---
Afterthought: When he said 'it could be different for you' - he may actually have been saying "Yeah, I know the danger you're in. hahaha..." - that's something else we must never forget - how genuinely awful these people are!

Great, so this was sorted eventually. Now are you going to get round to banning a certain other producer, lets call him 'fan d'ange', who is still here years after 'sharing his seed' unexpectedly with models?

Long time buyer - First time forum poster.

This is sad. This was known and posted on the forums at the time but was quickly deleted and covered up, this time accountability had to be taken as so many people saw and responded that it could no longer be ignored. That is great work by the community.

But this was allowed to be hidden for 8 months since he was guilty by his own admission in court, even longer since it actually happened. Just look at the messyjessie ban the site was extremely quick to perma why is this so much slower and far far more obvious. It even had a court proceedings to show what was going on rather then site owner being judge, jury and executioner. (Witch BTW they have the right to do, its their site but that's the precedent that at the very least should be applied here!)

In that time more shoots have taken place with more models that didn't get to know and where potentially at risk when at a shoot or reputationally now that this has all come out. Also during this time they have been allowed to post on the site generating sales and taking money from us which we may never have bought if we knew the whole story. Particularly as ethical spending is such a big thing these days.

Nothing less than Total ban of all the brands associated with them, any and all 3rd parties who use them / had business relationships with them and anyone who knew. Can the 3rd parties come back once a relevant safeguards are in place to remove the guilty party, sure just like people selling videos of messiejessie. But till all that is done it should be a 0 tolerance with the least forgiving point of view until things are back in order.

Where, when, and what was previously posted? The first I knew of it was VAVAVIE's post last Friday, which came as a complete shock, and I'm pretty sure that's the same for most/all here?

Just to clarify: We did not know anything about this... it came as a surprise for all of us. And the initial link deletion was done by an admin for fear of potential doxxing and to make sure it wasn't the wrong person. I put everything back up as soon as I became aware, then we had this long public conversation about it.

If you feel that something was posted about this months ago and deleted, please let me know about when you think it was and who you think posted it, because I'd like to research that. And everybody, if you feel that something bad is ever happening, please flag it or let me know at the time.

That was a different situation where we had no conclusive evidence. We also had a long debate about that

No matter what else, I do understand the initial removal of a few things

The documents and articles contained full names and a nearly complete address, so there were potential doxxing issues as well

Once it was confirmed to be real, legit, and that the UK system does indeed print addresses like that, and therefore it is public record, it was reinstated.

Imagine if an insta ban had been doled out based on a faked or mocked up article or document?

It had to be fully checked out.

I'm NOT saying everything was perfect, but I do understand the extreme caution at first and I don't believe it to be any attempt at a cover up.

Sorry if i seem like an irritating asker of horrible questions, but i like to know where things stand in terms of rules, laws, expectations etc. and i have concerns.

If Leon fights some how gets aquitted or conviction reversed or whatever (aparrently this was an option for him) would he be allowed to return? It would prove he didnt commit a crime but still didnt openly broadcast his conviction on here. Also do these convictions last for life?

The reason why i worry about the details is because i have been in a simillar situation to Leon, where while i was diagnosed with clynical depression i "sought solice" (the "it" in the "he admitted to it") in another person in the form of a kiss (sexual advancement). The only differences i can see between my story and Leons (which i beleived and was smpathetic to because i related to) are the fact that because he was in a position of power he got convicted in court and then he kept it quiet.

Another worry i have is with the strong call for a ban because of a label. In a case unrelated to the above (involving nobody but my self) and for the sake of broadcasting locally published news: I was once (over a decade ago) officially labeled "a danger to themself and the public" while i was detained and medicated. Its not too bad of a thing to have pinned on me now but it does hurt my chances of being able to aquire a firearms licence and i think it will be on my mental health record forever. But how is that perceived here? Id rather not have people know all my shit but if people say they need to know, there it is.

I hope from this, people can understand that when i was smpathetic to one side, it was not because i dissregarded another side. It was because i related to it more and could put my self in that position thinking my court strategy could have been worse if that was me. And because setting example and precedent first and asking why later leaves people like me wondering if i am still "safe" here, for want of a better word. If the line is drawn with me on the other side then so be it.

Maybe im over-reacting in my concern, but thats down to perception. Im honest in everything i say and with that, im sorry to anybody who i pissed off.

Well apart from the multiple models at the time, sure. Plus multiple people who were shot down for daring to speak out. It's cool though, these girls should just take whatever gunk is thrown at them...

It's almost like the #MeToo movement never happened/counted on here.

I heard from no firsthand witnesses. Nobody was ever shot down for speaking out. I obviously am a bit too liberal with allowing people to argue about things! There was no confession, no conviction. I am not a court of law or a private investigator. What could I do? It's an old scab that some people want to pick at but that case has been closed. I'm still open to hearing any new evidence if you've got it..

Much love to you my friend. We're all definitely running on empty, I hope you get some much needed rest and self care. I'm not going to keep talking about what should have been done, what's happened has happened. I think it's time to focus on how we move forward from here and how we can heal together to move forward positively. Please feel free to keep having a conversation with me.

As a plan to move forward, I will certainly be blocking the toxic people on these threads, for a first step. And for everyone who is upset and still feeling triggered, please feel free to reach out to me. I will always support you and listen to you and empathize with you. I wish everyone well and I hope you all find some comfort and support.

Hey folks,
Look... there is understandably a lot of hurt and distrust here. Believe me, I don't feel great either right now
But at some point we all need to try to get beyond all this. I'm honestly not trying to diminish what's happened or what's been said, however going back over and over all this isn't helping anyone.
MM has clearly dealt with this to the best of his ability - along with the moderators. As I'd (personally) hope, safety policies have been reviewed and reinforced.
At this point we're just re-hashing almost for the sake of it.

Please let's at least try to be a community again.
I'm really sorry if I've pissed anybody off by saying that - like I said, I'm not trying to diminish anything, just trying to move on now.

From memory there was a thread where the model made it clear she knew nothing about this.
However I assume it has been archived as it was pre 2016

With regards to the actual video of the event - that is fact - I happened to buy it & still have it

You have video of the sexual assault? If you think you know who it is, then it should be taken to the police. I don't believe that any firsthand witness accused him directly on here.

I'm locking the thread later today with a note on updated policies and everything. But sadly I'm sure we will be arguing about this into perpetuity. But then again maybe we should. All we can do is keep being transparent and honest and keep trying to do better.

...and the reason it triggered my memory is because there was pretty much the same reaction on here as there was with Leon. Lots of 'oh he's been a great producer we shouldn't condemn him for a few mistakes' and 'well it happened away from the site so there's not much we can do.' Evidence was there before, but that required listening to, appreciating and trusting women which doesn't seem to be a strong point for many in this 'community'.

The reaction was to remove Leon and the entire MostWam empire within a weekend. The decision was ultimately made because there was a solid court case which by the way will be our signpost in the future for making these decisions (I'll write more about that in the wrap up). I listened to everybody at the time both publicly and privately and I made the best decision I could. Thank you for being so passionate about the safety of all models.

In principle, this is never a bad argument to have. Especially on a forum that deals with sexual content it's extremely refreshing and healthy to have an open debate on how policy should be handled.
Unfortunately however, this is the real world and although the vast majority of people really seem to have the right idea, there will always be those who seem to take a pleasure in being insulting and controversial for the sake of it. Even in the most serious of situations like this.

Frankly, this is why I'm normally invisible.
I've talked through all of this with my other half. She could see it was bothering me. We both agreed I needed to vent my spleen lol

Anyway, thanks MM. Both for hearing me out and for locking this. It really does need to have a line drawn under it all now

The only thing I knew about Anglefan was that he lied to the models about the nature of the videos he was making in the early days. If it goes even deeper than that, well, crap. Probably best to make it clear now, send any potential evidence on and consider making a separate thread for it after Messsmaster locks this one.

As someone who's not exactly "active" here, I hope it's clear that my impressions of certain producers stem from ignorance rather than not caring. Putting the information out there helps people like me make potential purchasing decisions and (hopefully) ensures other people stay safe. I might not continue engaging in the debate because, as everyone's said, it's quite exhausting, but at least keeping the discussion open does this much.

Yes, I still have the video of the producer jacking himself off over the unsuspecting model.
There was a thread including comments from her stating this happened without her consent.

Lots of men wanting to get back to being a community by rapidly closing a wound they opened and played with! The wanking awaits!

So before we do, I have a final question to ask to @Messmaster:

IF this were to happen again, would you handle it roughly the same way? (As in the public element)

(I'm not trying to cause trouble, I just want to know and I think others would too.)

I'll be clarifying that soon.

?

I suspect the latter. Al's Twitter account was public last weekend when he tweeted about leaving UMD, but is now private, and so for that matter is the Mostwam account too. I'd never thought to look for their social media presence before so can't compare before and after, but going by the above examples I'd suggest "gone quiet" is the new policy.

Refresh my memory...wasn't there that blob of a creep named "Chris" that made videos of models under multiple different site names who was also fucking around and trying to force himself onto one or two models? I seem to want to say he had an a female partner in his videos named Gina, perhaps.

He got run out of here quick if I recall correctly when some models called foul.