Food for though

Does Tim Hortons count as a great gift to the moderational goddesses???

Cowboi, thank you for quoting this so it is there after the commend was deleted. THIS RIGHT HERE IS THE KIND OF THING I WAS SPEAKING OF! Here is a moderator on a site they care about doing something to help the community.

"

"Sock account?" What does that mean?
Revealed himself to be what and why?

So far on here nearly all your comments have been so bad they've had to be deleted and elsewhere they are screengrabbed with you and that Chris guy used as examples of the worst type of male disrespect towards women.
Shameful and thick.

OMG!!!!!! It has finally hit me!!!! I have been reading your comments VAVAVIE, and there is a certain familiarity to them. Not the words but the style and the way you discuss things with people. Like someone I have read before! This last statement is what did it. You are remembered Bea Arthur enthusiast stuck in exile!!!!! I am not going to suggest that you are Regis. But I am not not going to suggest it.

Bizarrely I have seen that name today for the first time. On Twitter where it says Penny is Regis in a wig. Is this Regis a code for something or a running gag? A Bea Arthur? Is that like rhyming slang like a J Arthur Rank equals Wank?

fap

out out out!!!!!!

Leon is the sole owner and operator of Mostwam (and it's parent company). He has a 100% controlling interest in all of the company's businesses as of April.

He employs Al, who had mentioned in a comment that him and others do 90% of the customs work (which is true). But they work for Leon, and Leon's company.

Lisa was divested from Mostwam on May 7th of 2021.

I don't think I'm allowed to post links to the filing documents showing all of this (due to privacy), but they are all publicly available and very easy to google.



There is no longer any question about whether or not he did it. He admitted to doing it, not just in court, but also here on Saturday after being continually caught lying about his supposed innocence. Please read both of the original threads;
https://umd.net/forums/surprised-this-didnt-happen-years-ago-mo

https://umd.net/forums/mostwam-owner-convicted-for-groping-wam


There have been a lot of aggressively misogynistic comments throughout these threads in defense of Leon/Mostwam and this is not one of them. It's just as bad though.

To minimize what he did as "something stupid" is just so incredibly careless, inconsiderate, and disappointing.

Rather than try to explain the fear, pain, and trauma associated with being sexually assaulted as a woman (yes, having someone grab your boob IS sexual assault, even Billy Madison knew that), let me ask you guys this;

Imagine you get told to stay late at work tomorrow for some reason. You and your boss are alone in the building. Everyone else has gone home. Your boss comes over and tells you what a great job you did today. He sits down on your desk, inbetween you and the only available exit. He tells you he's been having a really hard time at home lately, and that he's always appreciated you. He then reaches down and grabs your dick, gripping the shaft with his hand and massaging the side gently with his fingers while he looks you lustfully in the eyes.

You freeze. You don't even know how to react. You can't even process what is happening, let alone the range of emotions running through your brain. Thankfully, your boss recognizes the look of terror on your face. He stops fondling your penis. He stands up from his desk, a look of shame on his face. He apologizes for misreading the situation and offers to let you go home.

You end up pressing charges against him. He gets convicted in court of his crime. He then hides that conviction from everyone at work and from all of the customers that buy your former company's products (I say *former*, because you no longer have a job because your boss did "something stupid" that day).

A year later, one of the other employees finds out what your boss did to you. Finds out that your boss has hidden this and has not done any of the things he's supposed to do to make the workplace safer.

That employee, concerned about potentially having their dick groped, approaches your boss about all this. Your boss fires this employee. This employee then outs your boss publicly for the crime he committed against you and for hiding that crime from the majority of the people that worked there, from all of the stores that carry his product, and from all of the customers that buy that product.

When confronted, your boss then lies about the crime he committed against you, claiming he was innocent. He gets caught lying. He then defends his lies with more lies. He gets caught doing that.

He then admits PUBLICLY, that yes, he did in fact sexually assault you at work, but he also gives a host of reasons why he did that, attempting to justify his behavior. He then assures everyone that protocols have been put in place to make sure that nothing like that ever happens again.

He then gets caught lying about that, and reveals that no such protocols have been in place, or if they were, they haven't been followed. He also reveals that many other employees have actually left the company due to his behavior post-sexually assaulting you.

As a result of his continued gross negligence and completely unacceptable behavior, the largest store that sells your (former) company's product decides to sever ties with him.

*Some* of the customers of that store are not happy about this, because apparently they care more about his product than they do about his reckless behavior while making it. They care more about his product than the personal safety of those involved in creating it. Most of all, they care more about his product than they care about YOU, a person who he sexually assaulted at work.

One of these unhappy customers says something like this in defense of your boss; "SuRe He DiD sOmEtHiNg StUpId, bUt..." and "It WaS jUsT a MoMeNt Of BaD jUdGeMeNt, sO..." etc. etc.

How would that make you feel @Proto?

How would that make ANY of you guys feel?

Pretty bad right?

Now pretend that instead of all of the above happening to you, it happened to a female WAM model.

And you don't have to pretend.

Because it did.

And Leon has admitted it did. Both in court in March, and on here as well (after he initially lied about supposedly being innocent). And he admitted to doing all of the other unacceptable foolish arrogant careless things mentioned above as well.



I love jerking off as much as anyone (quite possibly more than anyone), and Mostwam was my fav. producer, so believe me when I say that I think this whole thing sucks all the way through.

But what really really sucks is seeing casual, misguided, inconsiderate comments in support of a convicted (and admitted) sex offender. Even the ones that are made out of ignorance rather than malice.

Some of you guys REALLY need to do some inner reflection over this Mostwam situation; why do you feel the way you do about it, and why do you feel as strongly as you do about it.

I can assure you I have asked myself these same questions, especially in regards to my initial instinct to want to believe his bullshit about being innocent.

There is a learning opportunity here for all of us, not just Leon.

I challenge everyone to take that opportunity, and I promise that you will be better off in the long run for it if you do.

What still gets me out of all of this was reading her testimony of how he did it.

like what point was that even a smart idea? to just reach out grab say i love you like that?

like not to bemoan here but how the hell did Lisa not eviscerate his existence for that, pretty sure if I was still with my ex and did that to a girl id be in a full body cast before the police got to me.

But i actually think things through... his story changed so much in those posts literally making me sit here go what the flying fuck is this?

still convinced in my mind the way this occured there is more women out there with stories about him.

doubt it wont be long before you see him back in court facing nassar level sentences

Wow. I really DID miss something. Really...

After wading through both these threads and taking it all in, I'll add this much.

First off, hell of a position for MessMaster to find himself stuck in the middle of because of Leon's crime. He got blindsided from this and by someone he knew for a long time. In the process, he has done a great job with trying to handle the matter in a balanced and fair approach, but in reality it all comes down to this:

This is HIS site. It is HIS call to decide whatever positions and policies HE determines. The irony of this site originating from WallowWorld's owner getting caught up in their own legal issue (an underage model, as I recall) and his decision to go his own way and create UMD.net was a choice he made and a number of us followed over to here and stuck around- some more active, others less so- over the years. So the idea of him having some experience in how he chooses to deal with this sort of matter is NOT "new". He chose to try to do the right thing back then and his judgement proved itself valid then, and I have confidence in his judgement still in how he decides to address this situation. But it is HIS judgement to make at the end of the day, even with all the feedback from the membership, and no one is bound to this site or any other. So everyone here is welcome to choose whichever side of this they each think is proper for who they are and want to be.

I see this... "debate"... about being as much a reflection of the diversity of people's opinions and values as much and sometimes more than what *should* be the priority, which is the crime and the victims of that act. The model as well as all the others whom Leon's self-admitted actions caused suffering, are what is important in this at its core. From there, it turned into a hate-fest about the various legal systems and their shortcomings, into a couple of rants over political disagreements and bashing conservatives- and Dalamar, not EVERYONE on this site is lockstep with your political beliefs. I respect your right to yours, but I didn't appreciate the snide remarks you extrapolated from Chris to some of the rest of us. Perhaps you think it's okay to insult and degrade others? Fine, but then perhaps you shouldn't turn around and claim the moral high ground about standing up for people. Especially not when the issue isn't about political ideologies; it's about a person who was the victim of a sexual assault. And frankly Chris, the same applies to you as well. Even if you have arguments about the justice system in general (and on some levels I find myself agreeing with you in general about the failures of it) this situation is still about the model who was the victim of a crime, to which Leon even admitted having done, so all the tangents about politics and the legal system's failures only distract from the point that this woman was assaulted. Priorities...

So then the accusations of witch hunts, etc. that came up toward Derek started, but again that overlooks the fact that HE is the one who sets the Rules to be a participant here. No one HAS to agree with any of them, unless, of course, you want to be here. Last time I checked, they hadn't blown the bridges to escape. So everyone gets to choose. But IF we all choose to stay, then whatever decision he makes, goes. And it appears that Leon, Lisa and Al go as well.

So be it. As to whomever else chooses to go, for whatever their own reasons may be, that is their choice to make for themselves and to be respected as THEIR right to choose. I hate to see people leave here as it just expands the scope of what Leon started, but it honestly at this point seems about more than what Leon did. This event has certainly demonstrated that the "family" here may share some common interests, but having this fetish (or catering to it for profit) most assuredly does NOT make everyone in lockstep on other parts of their beliefs and values and priorities, and I think some folks here may have grown a little numb to the reality that we ALL have our own standards and beliefs, and each one of us comes to the table with a different perspective and experiences. Some are shared common values, and some are obviously not. Some people feel less safe, others feel less welcome and more isolated, and some just want to wack off to more porn, regardless of the circumstances. Again; priorities.

Anyway, for my part, I stand behind Derek in whatever his choice is for the interest of this site.

Jay, I don't think everyone on this site is. Given some of the replies that are out there I am positive that not everyone on here shares my political beliefs and that is ok. I absolutely think when warranted it is ok to insult and degrade others. When the inmates are left to free roam in the asylum this is what can happen. But I guess when people choose to not look at the conversations or choose not to login to the site, they can't be expected to take action. Hiding from a situation when you have the trust of the users and the owner of the site to help maintain some kind of order does not speak well for who you are as a person. It is absolutely about the person who was a victim of sexual assault. It is just hard to see that when people are putting cum before people.

In a situation like this you don't go to the authorities to try and ruin people's lives, you go to the authorities to seek justice.

Actions have consequences, and those consequences aren't necessarily limited to the ones handed down by a court.

Solidarity to anyone who has been the victim of sexual abuse or made to feel unsafe.

Sexual Assault is not just "one of those things that happens"! It is horrible that it happened to you and it should not have happened.


You can't really say that no one's life was destroyed. We have no clue how it impacted the victim and their life. We have no clue how it will impact them in the future. Can you say that they will be able to have a significant other touch their breast in a consensual way and not have flashbacks of what Leon did? You can't and it is not fair to assume that.

First off, I appreciate that you've backed off from some of the more inflammatory language you were using before. I have a lot of issues with what you've said here and elsewhere, but GENERALLY speaking this post is fine and maybe it will help people understand your points a little better.

I honestly don't think most people were looking to go on a "witch hunt" or adopt a mob mentality. Maybe some were, idk. As far as I'm concerned, the only things we know for certain are what those involved have said, and we can't really go much further than that. I don't know who the whistleblower is, so it's pointless for me to even comment on it. I think for most of us, the focus is definitely on trying to help people in this community and hopefully prevent this sort of thing from happening again. A futile task, maybe, given the general nature of adult communities, but this community is small and niche enough that it doesn't take much effort to ensure it's more inclusive and understanding for everyone's sake. It doesn't take much, just a little understanding and empathy regardless of whether you just come here to jerk off, make friends or work through your neuroses (like I do, I swear). People can't change what happened to the lady in question, but they can influence how people perceive such incidents and help others feel more comfortable being here. Fetish shit might be inherently ridiculous, but it's also an incredibly personal thing that sometimes hits people harder than they think, so comfort and safety are important.

Another major reason why so many people are upset is because Leon's been around forever and a lot of us have enjoyed his content. Like I said, he was the first producer I ever bought anything from! Sometimes it takes time to get over something like that because you've effectively identified with someone who did a very bad thing. Some of the people you've argued with might have said some irrational things themselves as a result, myself included. I still wouldn't be able to "cancel" him or whatever the buzzword nowadays is. I realise I say this from a position of immense privilege, but it would be extremely hypocritical of me since I still enjoy content by people who have done or said things that are orders of magnitude worse than what Leon did. I still enjoy stuff by Woody Allen, John Lennon, Miles Davis, Pier Paolo Pasolini, Rainer Werner Fassbinder, Warren Zevon, Anne Sexton, Allen Ginsberg, Alfred Hitchcock, John Wayne, Klaus Kinski, Lars Von Trier, Virginia Woolf, and these are just a few names I've plucked from looking around my room! Like I said, I've generally worked through my "relationships" with these people, but in some cases, it took a lot of work. It's just a lot harder, if not outright impossible, for others to do the same for a whole host of very valid reasons (i.e. many of these examples being men who were abusive towards women would understandably make many women extremely uncomfortable just by association).

Finally, it's not on-topic, but I'm not comfortable with the "most men would love being abused" bit. I can say from my very personal experience that it simply isn't true and it degrades just about everyone. Abuse towards men is just as bad as abuse towards women, and I honestly think the best way of understanding that is to become more involved with what some might refer to as "feminist discourse", but this is only tangentially related to the Leon business, so I'll shut up now.

On the plus side, this thread has taught me a couple of things and introduced me to some seemingly cool people. All in the same place where I come to release my man juice, who would've thought it?

In my home town, a female teacher was charged with having sexual encounters with a grade 9 student, and strong implications were made that his cooperation would affect his grades. So, no, he not only didn't enjoy it, but it damaged his ability to have a healthy relationship with a young lady his own age. The perpetrator did a few months behind bars and may never hold a teaching job again. Meanwhile, the young man would now be around 20 and may spend a lifetime in therapy, He already has spent several years trying to feel 'normal' and as I said, he is unable to have a normal relationship, as he avoids any form of intimacy since the series of encounters took place.

I have also heard of female employers cornering male employees for 'favors' against their wishes. So, no, 'most males' would not and do not want to be sexually abused.

Kelsey's post deserved a better quality of response than, "Nuh-uh!"

I'd have to say that, throughout all of this mess, this is the most utterly repugnant post I've seen. That's saying something. Sexual assault, even if it stops short of actual rape, is illegal for a number of very good reasons, including the fact that it has the potential to cause extreme, long-lasting trauma. This isn't hyperbole, or reference to nebulous statistics - it is, unfortunately, derived from the experience of working with victims whose lives have indeed been ruined as a result. People who suffer panic attacks if they're touched unexpectedly, or who are broken by social phobia so debilitating that they can't help but run from even slight crowds. People who were attacked repeatedly by an authority figure, and have been torn between their own fear and the demand of friends and family to accept and obey the monster that abused them.

They're not playing up their trauma for unearned sympathy or material benefits - they largely have gotten neither. If they're lucky, their attacker has faced consequences, and that's far from the most common outcome. Otherwise, they've gotten nothing but horror and trauma, and have very often been cut off from any social support they might have had because everyone they knew before responded in much the same way as the quoted text at the top of this post.

"It's all in their heads."
"Just get over it."
"It's not worth ruining someone's life in response."

Nodens help me (appropriate this time, as he was a god of healing!), I've heard those so often from family of clients to justify continued abuse and neglect. They deepen the victims' trauma because they can't - or more often, simply won't - try to actually understand the damage that's been done.

Kind of like 34gate.

Look, I don't doubt that you were assaulted, but your way of responding to that is deeply unhealthy, both for you and the people around you who have had similar experiences. Whatever the state of your trauma (or lack thereof) may be, please show basic respect to people who are still suffering and don't belittle their trauma. That's the whole point of Kelsey's post - if something happened that really did mess you up, you wouldn't want someone coming in and responding as you have. Whatever your beliefs may be about the extent of the damage done, it's really a matter of simple decency - put those beliefs aside and either help if you can and are willing to, or otherwise stay out of the way.

My two cents on this. I used to be a fan of Leon's work and it feels tainted now. Anyone that preys on another person and commits an act of sexual assault has no place here. He and everyone that defends him and his actions can go fuck themselves, because they don't deserve to be fucked by another person, since consent seems to be beyond their grasp.

At least reading through these replies shows me who the biggest pieces of trash are, or who's at least open enough to broadcast it.

If you feel that you need to leave because sexual assault isn't protected behavior here, good riddance.

Edit: Redacted, as the post this was responding to has been buried. No need to continue this line of weirdness.

Oh, you're trolling, never mind then lol.

I think this thread is about done serving its original purpose. It'll be locked sometime tomorrow so that we can move on. If you need to say something else feel free to start new threads if you need to.

Sexual assault - physical or verbal non consensual contact of any kind - regardless of gender, is a crime. It is humiliating, degradating and damaging. I don't care if the person involved is male or female. It is wrong end of story.

Some of the views expressed in this thread are absolutely sickening. I'm no "activist" of any kind. I'm a human being who knows right from wrong and can understand the difference between fantasy and reality.

Yeah, I think you're probably right. Well, at least this means I don't need to waste any more time responding to him.

In any case, it did give me the chance to reinforce the proper take-away message, here: Respect and decency above all else. Always try to be nice; never fail to be kind. Support victims of sexual assault and abuse.

Thanks for the love But I had nothing to do with WallowWorld. I started this site as a links list in '98 after being inspired by sites like WallowWorld and Messfun et al but I never had a hand in any of them.

The idea that "most men would probably enjoy it" is either, at best, delusional; at worst sophistry. Clearly, there's no data to support that supposition, and while anecdotes are not data...

:raises hand:

At the risk of going off-topic from the OP...

Man, here. I have been groped, 4 distinct times. None of these people had my consent to touch me.

A woman grabbed my ass as she passed behind me at the bookstore where I worked, while I was in college. Hard, too; I jumped out of my skin, startled, and then when I turned around, the middle-aged woman smirked at me. Did not enjoy; do not recommend.

A man grabbed my cock at a busy night at an English Pub in downtown Chicago. Also, startled the shit out of me. "You're cute" he said. "You're my little teddy bear" he said (which was the first time I'd heard that phrase). Did not enjoy; do not recommend. (note: not a gay bar. Just a pub)

A woman, a customer of my IBM consulting group, met me in her office to review the new software we'd been contracted to install. She was VP of the department, and responsible for our contract. She's tall, and large. I'm short, and at the time really lean. The details of this one still piss me off; she groped me, wanted sex in the office, and demanded to see me after work and to stay the weekend before traveling home. I demurred, of course. I reported this to my superior; he laughed. The next morning, I was pulled aside and was asked to fly home, off of the contract. I resigned immediately the following Monday; and have told very few people about this one. (I'm mostly pseudonymous here, so it's not quite as rough a story to tell, in the forum, as opposed to in person and face to face. Even so, I can feel my blood boiling as I write this). No, did not enjoy; do not recommend.

A man, at work. A wild startup in Silicon Valley. The company was late-nights, alcohol fueled, the typical Web-2 crazy startup. I was in the company kitchen, getting coffee. He walked behind me, grabbed both of my butt cheeks, and squeezed. "Too bad you're not 20 years younger" he said, slurred words from all of the booze going around the office. Well. Did not enjoy. I let H.R. know. Eventually he groped the wrong person, and was fired. But it took a while to get to that point. Did not enjoy. Was not flattered. Do not recommend.

*The Point:* Now, despite all of this, I still, and will probably never, understand what it's like to be a woman in the situation; and although I can empathize as much as possible, the man::woman dynamic, and the usual power dynamic between men and women, make the horror and terror of their experiences unfathomable (but not unimaginable) to me; but I can listen, and empathize as much as possible, and listen as best I can. And, most importantly, not diminish their experience or deny it happened, or somehow blame them for it.

I highly recommend that it does not take these kinds of experiences, listed here, to get to that point in order to feel, and demonstrate support.

And clearly say that, no, most men would not enjoy non-consensual groping/assault. To suggest otherwise is in my informed opinion: misguided, and misinformed, fantasy; it's from a place of inexperience, and lack of imagination (and lack of empathy to be real here)

So by the time that the following happened, I took this very seriously:
My work sponsored a trip to a concert at the House of Blues. +1 allowed, so my girlfriend at the time came along. We were serious; we lived together, had a house together. After the concert, on the elevator to the parking garage, and as the doors of the elevator opened. I stepped through to hold the doors. Behind me, while my back was turned, the VP of our department grabbed the breasts of my girlfriend, and squeezed. He winked and then exited the elevator. She told me what had happened on the way to the car. I immediately felt frozen, chilled, shocked, and immensely angry. She didn't want me to report it, at work; I'd lose my job. I reported it anyway, furious; of course I lost my job. On the spot, that day. Worth it.

It turns out I was only one of two people to believe her, which was just acid on the cake.

(Update: The VP in question, years later, groped another woman and was caught on camera. Unable to be protected any longer, he was let go from the company. Couldn't lie his way out of that one, the bastard.)

I honestly cannot even begin to describe my absolute and total horror at that response to someone's heartfelt description of a horrific experiece. Flagged to MM. This needs the site owner's attention. There really are no words.

We clearly have a Troll problem in the forums. Strikes me as "making teh libz crai lulz!" than anything else or actually valuable.

(Narrator's voice: "It did not, in fact, make him crai.")

Was the original purpose to allow 34Gate countless opportunities to insult other users?

Mission accomplished, if that's the case.

I'm all for open discourse, even on sensitive subjects, but seeing his inflammatory posts get pass after pass with little more than "please be nice," has really been disappointing.

"He's gagged now." - Ok great, the damage is already done.

Huh. I thought I remembered a conversation about part of this place being an alternative to the clusterfuck that WallowWorld turned out to become. Not that YOU were involved in running it, but more about learning from the mistakes that person made in what they allowed there? Maybe I'm wrong, though. It HAS been a while, after all. Sorry if I got that part wrong. (and the older I get; the more I find that I have a mind like a steel trap.... RUSTY. )


Anyway, the part about standing behind whatever your decision is about the here and now still stands. And yes, I do kind of get the feeling that most of what people felt the need to express about it has been posted already between the two threads. As far as someone taking over the "MostWAM" business, I think that brand name has pretty much joined the Edsel at this point. I can't imagine anyone around here wanting to try and pour money into it. The only thing I would care to add, as to my opinion on the matter, is that Lisa did do a lot for people in the coping forum. I do understand that she should have said something to you when this happened, but there IS the possibility that Leon *might* have been threatening her with either trying to take away their child, or even with physical harm to her or her son IF she told anyone. ANYONE. That is not an uncommon tactic for abusers to try and utilize against their victims and for all we know, she might have been one as well in one way or another. She did leave him for SOME reason, I would presume. So while I can see a permanent ban on Leon and his studio's revenue stream from here, I would have to ask is it possible that Lisa might have been another victim in this mess he created, and if so, is it fair to her to punish her for what *may* have been done by her under duress of threats? You have been in touch with her, so you would know better than the rest of us. It just seems out of character for someone who went out of her way as a producer to try and reach out to help members here with their problems and issues, to be supportive of her EX-husband's actions of her own free will. I do get the point about not letting anyone bring revenue to Leon from this site, not even through her. But as a member rather than a producer, I wonder if an olive branch might be worth considering? If she is a victim of his actions too, then she might need and be worthy of some of that kindness that she tried to show others here.

But whatever you decide in the matter stands, either way.

That was the whole reason I used two men in the example. It doesn't matter what the person's gender or sexuality is. All that matters is the groping by the person's employer was unwanted, unwelcome, and lacked consent.