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"Update to the Leon / Mostwam situation"
Love you, too
Wamgame2 said:
It would've been no different had I received the full funds and then paid to rent the space or purchase gunge from him.
wamfan said:
MrWAM/Wamgames said that Leon "kept half of anything earned in lieu of studio usage and supplying the gunge"
This, in my mind, makes them business partners.
MrWAM/Wamgames said that Leon "kept half of anything earned in lieu of studio usage and supplying the gunge"
This, in my mind, makes them business partners.
It would've been no different had I received the full funds and then paid to rent the space or purchase gunge from him.
I do think your business arrangement with Leon makes all the difference. You are joined in a 50/50 financial partnership that is obligated to continue in perpetuity. You don't see that as being in business with Leon? I hope you can pivot to a new production space and gunge supplier and return to the UMD with great content.
wetandmessy| wamclub | mywam | mudmatches
I think the path forward definitley nessecitates changes.
Perhaps umd as a hoster needs to come up with some protection policies to protect models in the event they face sexual abuse from content creators.
which means maybe an anonymous reporting system to umd, where the admins can work with the models and take the appropriate steps to avoid something like this happening again.
that would involve collecting evidence, then reaching out to any affiliations of the violator to inform them of the situation and help the victims approach the authorities to take action.
I'd like to think the poster of the other thread did his acts in good will to bring a situation to light that it's clear Leon had no intention of doing until his hand was forced. I think we owe some gratitude for that poster, however i may caution and suggest in the future just dm that kind of information to the admins so the appropriate actions can be taken and the community informed all at once. it seems to me the situation became bigger from knee jerk reaction and shock, then another shock after verification.
But I think we as a community owe it to remind the producers we support the models as they are the backbone of the content and that does not give the photographers the ability and immunity to abuse the models.
Perhaps umd as a hoster needs to come up with some protection policies to protect models in the event they face sexual abuse from content creators.
which means maybe an anonymous reporting system to umd, where the admins can work with the models and take the appropriate steps to avoid something like this happening again.
that would involve collecting evidence, then reaching out to any affiliations of the violator to inform them of the situation and help the victims approach the authorities to take action.
I'd like to think the poster of the other thread did his acts in good will to bring a situation to light that it's clear Leon had no intention of doing until his hand was forced. I think we owe some gratitude for that poster, however i may caution and suggest in the future just dm that kind of information to the admins so the appropriate actions can be taken and the community informed all at once. it seems to me the situation became bigger from knee jerk reaction and shock, then another shock after verification.
But I think we as a community owe it to remind the producers we support the models as they are the backbone of the content and that does not give the photographers the ability and immunity to abuse the models.
wamfan said:
I do think your business arrangement with Leon makes all the difference. You are joined in a 50/50 financial partnership that is obligated to continue in perpetuity. You don't see that as being in business with Leon? I hope you can pivot to a new production space and gunge supplier and return to the UMD with great content.
I do think your business arrangement with Leon makes all the difference. You are joined in a 50/50 financial partnership that is obligated to continue in perpetuity. You don't see that as being in business with Leon? I hope you can pivot to a new production space and gunge supplier and return to the UMD with great content.
In "perpetuity"? Do you seriously think I would have continued using his place if I'd know about his record? I see it as being in a business relationship in good faith, the same as every other producer on here does with models or suppliers or studios. It's only when something like this comes to light that the relationship changes.
Shakes head and walks away.
Creating messy content for over 20+ years
Wamgame2 said:
In "perpetuity"? Do you seriously think I would have continued using his place if I'd know about his record? I see it as being in a business relationship in good faith, the same as every other producer on here does with models or suppliers or studios. It's only when something like this comes to light that the relationship changes.
Shakes head and walks away.
wamfan said:
I do think your business arrangement with Leon makes all the difference. You are joined in a 50/50 financial partnership that is obligated to continue in perpetuity. You don't see that as being in business with Leon? I hope you can pivot to a new production space and gunge supplier and return to the UMD with great content.
I do think your business arrangement with Leon makes all the difference. You are joined in a 50/50 financial partnership that is obligated to continue in perpetuity. You don't see that as being in business with Leon? I hope you can pivot to a new production space and gunge supplier and return to the UMD with great content.
In "perpetuity"? Do you seriously think I would have continued using his place if I'd know about his record? I see it as being in a business relationship in good faith, the same as every other producer on here does with models or suppliers or studios. It's only when something like this comes to light that the relationship changes.
Shakes head and walks away.
I think thats what needs addressed here, and which is why I'd like Lisa to speak.
it seems only logical if you face any impending legal issues you inform those associated with you of the situation, to find alternate arrangements in the event things go awry, he did none of that, and I cant fault someone for continuing their business when they were not aware of issues, theres a saying you cant fix something if you dont know it's broken.
but at the end of the day lets not shade the affiliates. the real victim out of this is the assault victim and Lisa and their child. that should not be overlooked here.
Leon give your head a damned shake/
Wamgame2 said:
In "perpetuity"? Do you seriously think I would have continued using his place if I'd know about his record?
In "perpetuity"? Do you seriously think I would have continued using his place if I'd know about his record?
I'm really not accusing you of anything, and I apologize if you felt I was implying that. I see you as another victim of Leon's criminal behavior. You stated that your arrangement is that he get's 50% of the sales from your store, so your sales are unfortunately tied to Leon. I hope you can get untied and continue to make scenes.
wetandmessy| wamclub | mywam | mudmatches
Next Time said:
I guess that depends on your aim. Is the issue with removing Leon's presence in your space, or his ability to earn money from it? ...would you have a problem with them operating here while knowing that some of the money made by New Company was putting money in Leon's pocket by way of rent?
I guess that depends on your aim. Is the issue with removing Leon's presence in your space, or his ability to earn money from it? ...would you have a problem with them operating here while knowing that some of the money made by New Company was putting money in Leon's pocket by way of rent?
I think you phrased the question in the best way I've ever heard... thanks. I have no interest in ruining Leon or stopping MostWam as a business, and it's not really about the optics of his presence. I think the goal is to simply remove our own support for any individual who has a record of sexual harassment or is credibly accused of it. If they're ultimately making money from our support, whether through studio usage or billing fees, or being involved in the shoots at all, then whether he has an actual profile and can post here doesn't make much difference to anything. I can't see how it advances the protection of any models.
The real ultimate goal is to help protect models the best way we can. If one wanted to go further with that, then I guess trying to put Leon out of business might be the goal, but I'm not sure that's where anyone is at. Just trying to figure where the line of separation should be drawn at this site. Right now I'm leaning toward letting associates like Wamgame stay, and even publish previously-shot material, so long as they can guarantee the content wasn't shot in the presence of Leon, and any new content doesn't come from those studios or have anything to do with MostWam. I still don't know what the final decision will be.
Stay messy, my friends
Messmaster said:
I think you phrased the question in the best way I've ever heard... thanks. I have no interest in ruining Leon or stopping MostWam as a business, and it's not really about the optics of his presence. I think the goal is to simply remove our own support for any individual who has a record of sexual harassment or is credibly accused of it. If they're ultimately making money from our support, whether through studio usage or billing fees, or being involved in the shoots at all, then whether he has an actual profile and can post here doesn't make much difference to anything. I can't see how it advances the protection of any models.
The real ultimate goal is to help protect models the best way we can. If one wanted to go further with that, then I guess trying to put Leon out of business might be the goal, but I'm not sure that's where anyone is at. Just trying to figure where the line of separation should be drawn at this site. Right now I'm leaning toward letting associates like Wamgame stay, and even publish previously-shot material, so long as they can guarantee the content wasn't shot in the presence of Leon, and any new content doesn't come from those studios or have anything to do with MostWam. I still don't know what the final decision will be.
Next Time said:
I guess that depends on your aim. Is the issue with removing Leon's presence in your space, or his ability to earn money from it? ...would you have a problem with them operating here while knowing that some of the money made by New Company was putting money in Leon's pocket by way of rent?
I guess that depends on your aim. Is the issue with removing Leon's presence in your space, or his ability to earn money from it? ...would you have a problem with them operating here while knowing that some of the money made by New Company was putting money in Leon's pocket by way of rent?
I think you phrased the question in the best way I've ever heard... thanks. I have no interest in ruining Leon or stopping MostWam as a business, and it's not really about the optics of his presence. I think the goal is to simply remove our own support for any individual who has a record of sexual harassment or is credibly accused of it. If they're ultimately making money from our support, whether through studio usage or billing fees, or being involved in the shoots at all, then whether he has an actual profile and can post here doesn't make much difference to anything. I can't see how it advances the protection of any models.
The real ultimate goal is to help protect models the best way we can. If one wanted to go further with that, then I guess trying to put Leon out of business might be the goal, but I'm not sure that's where anyone is at. Just trying to figure where the line of separation should be drawn at this site. Right now I'm leaning toward letting associates like Wamgame stay, and even publish previously-shot material, so long as they can guarantee the content wasn't shot in the presence of Leon, and any new content doesn't come from those studios or have anything to do with MostWam. I still don't know what the final decision will be.
Create new stores for the affiliates, then tbh if Leon has any sense he can refund them current payments and proceeds. seems only fair. if he doesnt he could likely find himself in court again for lawsuits due to damages from this.
cowboi1 said: I'd like to see a comment from Lisa tbh, I notice reading through the threads she has been noticeably absent from this. which makes me wonder if she even has anything to do with mostwam anymore. or if she has left Leon due to the situation (under this I hope she did
I've been in commutation with her and this has all been extremely traumatic for her. She is around but I'm not sure if she wants to take part in this discussion.
cowboi1 said:
@MM id show the affiliations mercy here assist them with getting their own stores set up seperate from mostwam and maybe other producers here can assist them with shooting locations, that would be my thought on this.
@MM id show the affiliations mercy here assist them with getting their own stores set up seperate from mostwam and maybe other producers here can assist them with shooting locations, that would be my thought on this.
Thank you. I'm feeling this approach.
Stay messy, my friends
wamfan said:
I'm really not accusing you of anything, and I apologize if you felt I was implying that. I see you as another victim of Leon's criminal behavior. You stated that your arrangement is that he get's 50% of the sales from your store, so your sales are unfortunately tied to Leon. I hope you can get untied and continue to make scenes.
Wamgame2 said:
In "perpetuity"? Do you seriously think I would have continued using his place if I'd know about his record?
In "perpetuity"? Do you seriously think I would have continued using his place if I'd know about his record?
I'm really not accusing you of anything, and I apologize if you felt I was implying that. I see you as another victim of Leon's criminal behavior. You stated that your arrangement is that he get's 50% of the sales from your store, so your sales are unfortunately tied to Leon. I hope you can get untied and continue to make scenes.
Thankyou! Appreciate that
And it's already untied. I changed the payment addy to my own last night. Leon and his studio won't be getting a penny more from me. Like the rest of you I am disgusted by the treatment of his model, but yes, not enjoying being caught up in it either.
Messmaster said:
I've been in commutation with her and this has all been extremely traumatic for her. She is around but I'm not sure if she wants to take part in this discussion.
Thank you. I'm feeling this approach.
cowboi1 said: I'd like to see a comment from Lisa tbh, I notice reading through the threads she has been noticeably absent from this. which makes me wonder if she even has anything to do with mostwam anymore. or if she has left Leon due to the situation (under this I hope she did
I've been in commutation with her and this has all been extremely traumatic for her. She is around but I'm not sure if she wants to take part in this discussion.
cowboi1 said:
@MM id show the affiliations mercy here assist them with getting their own stores set up seperate from mostwam and maybe other producers here can assist them with shooting locations, that would be my thought on this.
@MM id show the affiliations mercy here assist them with getting their own stores set up seperate from mostwam and maybe other producers here can assist them with shooting locations, that would be my thought on this.
Thank you. I'm feeling this approach.
Look I will just say this, and I am sorry if it is blunt but it appears it is a fact from WamGame:
The store he has, nevermind the studio is tied somehow directly to MostWam through that payment method. I don't know if MostWam take a cut, etc, but you cannot say you the business is associated, surely? I know you may not be personally, WamGame, but the store you have is - and that is by your own words and implication.
I know these things are hard and can cause a bit of a halt for some time, but I would suggest cutting all ties payments wise immediately. That money is still somehow attached and going through MostWam, where Leon currently still works/owns.
Again, I do not know if they take a cut? It's up to you to answer that yourself either here, or with discussions with MM but right now it feels (to me at least) like they may do, and if so, then what is the point of MostWam going from this site, and indeed the hassle of the last few days if they (and again, Leon) are still getting some form of revenue through a store supported on UMD.
I haven't the faintest idea how to produce or run a store so feel free to ignore this or correct me of course (Learning is important for all!) but here is some advice from a simple customer here on UMD:
I would just, sever all ties immediatley. Or, speak to MM (or here) give your commitment within a realistic timeframe that you will do.
It may seem blunt, and drastic but, but again - if payments are all tied to MostWam somehow, then what has been the point of them going from the UMD, and this whole debate, if the UMD is still supporting a sexual offender even through the side door, even through a store that isn't meaning harm yet still attached with the account?
EDIT: Just a quickie, I am in no way blaming you, nor accuse you of anything either! As I say, you have been far more professional than others and seem to want to happily chat and seek advice/help etc. I imagine this must be frustrating, but I think as a community and for making sure lines are set and such, some of us who simply usually browse and buy and go should be saying what we think. So, again I'm sorry if blunt and I hope you can eventually sort things out
Chair, Button, Gunk Dunk...but who's the dunkee?
MessySoMessy said:
I know these things are hard and can cause a bit of a halt for some time, but I would suggest cutting all ties payments wise immediately. That money is still somehow attached and going through MostWam, where Leon currently still works/owns.
I would just, sever all ties immediatley. Or, speak to MM (or here) give your commitment within a realistic timeframe that you will do.
I know these things are hard and can cause a bit of a halt for some time, but I would suggest cutting all ties payments wise immediately. That money is still somehow attached and going through MostWam, where Leon currently still works/owns.
I would just, sever all ties immediatley. Or, speak to MM (or here) give your commitment within a realistic timeframe that you will do.
As mentioned above I cut all ties with the studio as soon as I heard the news yesterday and removed their payment addy from the store as well. It was set up like that in the first place, as mentioned in an earlier thread, because the studio were supplying the space and the mess. There is a huge difference between myself and MostWam in that they were fully aware of his crime all this time. When the store was set up three years ago none of us had any reason to think it was a bad idea. I have been duped here too.
wamgame said:
As mentioned above I cut all ties with the studio as soon as I heard the news yesterday and removed their payment addy from the store as well. It was set up like that in the first place, as mentioned in an earlier thread, because the studio were supplying the space and the mess. There is a huge difference between myself and MostWam in that they were fully aware of his crime all this time. When the store was set up three years ago none of us had any reason to think it was a bad idea. I have been duped here too.
As mentioned above I cut all ties with the studio as soon as I heard the news yesterday and removed their payment addy from the store as well. It was set up like that in the first place, as mentioned in an earlier thread, because the studio were supplying the space and the mess. There is a huge difference between myself and MostWam in that they were fully aware of his crime all this time. When the store was set up three years ago none of us had any reason to think it was a bad idea. I have been duped here too.
Apologies then! And thanks, I wasn't sure if you had done that already or not (Last few days I like others have been reading an awful lot of text!).
In terms of space and studio, I would definitley look into alternatives of course. Not easy, I know, but there seem to be plenty here who are understanding your position right now, producer side, so I'd definitley continue chats with them!
Chair, Button, Gunk Dunk...but who's the dunkee?
MessySoMessy said:
Apologies then! And thanks, I wasn't sure if you had done that already or not (Last few days I like others have been reading an awful lot of text!).
In terms of space and studio, I would definitley look into alternatives of course. Not easy, I know, but there seem to be plenty here who are understanding your position right now, producer side, so I'd definitley continue chats with them!
wamgame said:
As mentioned above I cut all ties with the studio as soon as I heard the news yesterday and removed their payment addy from the store as well. It was set up like that in the first place, as mentioned in an earlier thread, because the studio were supplying the space and the mess. There is a huge difference between myself and MostWam in that they were fully aware of his crime all this time. When the store was set up three years ago none of us had any reason to think it was a bad idea. I have been duped here too.
As mentioned above I cut all ties with the studio as soon as I heard the news yesterday and removed their payment addy from the store as well. It was set up like that in the first place, as mentioned in an earlier thread, because the studio were supplying the space and the mess. There is a huge difference between myself and MostWam in that they were fully aware of his crime all this time. When the store was set up three years ago none of us had any reason to think it was a bad idea. I have been duped here too.
Apologies then! And thanks, I wasn't sure if you had done that already or not (Last few days I like others have been reading an awful lot of text!).
In terms of space and studio, I would definitley look into alternatives of course. Not easy, I know, but there seem to be plenty here who are understanding your position right now, producer side, so I'd definitley continue chats with them!
I think I will be taking a break from creating until after Christmas to give myself time to regroup and make decisions, but a new collaboration is a good idea - not going to let this awful experience put me off. The financial arrangement would definitely be different next time though! That said my main concern right now is to pay the last model who very kindly offered to wait until his scenes went on sale to receive his payment.
Creating messy content for over 20+ years
wamgame said:
Thankyou! Appreciate that And it's already untied. I changed the payment addy to my own last night. Leon and his studio won't be getting a penny more from me. Like the rest of you I am disgusted by the treatment of his model, but yes, not enjoying being caught up in it either.
wamfan said:
I'm really not accusing you of anything, and I apologize if you felt I was implying that. I see you as another victim of Leon's criminal behavior. You stated that your arrangement is that he get's 50% of the sales from your store, so your sales are unfortunately tied to Leon. I hope you can get untied and continue to make scenes.
Wamgame2 said:
In "perpetuity"? Do you seriously think I would have continued using his place if I'd know about his record?
In "perpetuity"? Do you seriously think I would have continued using his place if I'd know about his record?
I'm really not accusing you of anything, and I apologize if you felt I was implying that. I see you as another victim of Leon's criminal behavior. You stated that your arrangement is that he get's 50% of the sales from your store, so your sales are unfortunately tied to Leon. I hope you can get untied and continue to make scenes.
Thankyou! Appreciate that
And it's already untied. I changed the payment addy to my own last night. Leon and his studio won't be getting a penny more from me. Like the rest of you I am disgusted by the treatment of his model, but yes, not enjoying being caught up in it either. I get it has, but i also feel her voice maybe the voice of healing needed in this.
if shes reading this, please do us all this favor, start talking with your staff, i hate to say this but contact current and former models and start these discussions, i think if mostwam is to continue in any capacity it needs to investigate how deep and far these actions may have went. if there are other victims, I think they need to finally be heard.
wamgame said:
Thankyou! Appreciate that And it's already untied. I changed the payment addy to my own last night. Leon and his studio won't be getting a penny more from me. Like the rest of you I am disgusted by the treatment of his model, but yes, not enjoying being caught up in it either.
wamfan said:
I'm really not accusing you of anything, and I apologize if you felt I was implying that. I see you as another victim of Leon's criminal behavior. You stated that your arrangement is that he get's 50% of the sales from your store, so your sales are unfortunately tied to Leon. I hope you can get untied and continue to make scenes.
Wamgame2 said:
In "perpetuity"? Do you seriously think I would have continued using his place if I'd know about his record?
In "perpetuity"? Do you seriously think I would have continued using his place if I'd know about his record?
I'm really not accusing you of anything, and I apologize if you felt I was implying that. I see you as another victim of Leon's criminal behavior. You stated that your arrangement is that he get's 50% of the sales from your store, so your sales are unfortunately tied to Leon. I hope you can get untied and continue to make scenes.
Thankyou! Appreciate that
And it's already untied. I changed the payment addy to my own last night. Leon and his studio won't be getting a penny more from me. Like the rest of you I am disgusted by the treatment of his model, but yes, not enjoying being caught up in it either. As the person who had to post the information about Leon,Al and Lisa initially on behalf of one former Mostwam model and now speaking with her friends who were also models there 'we' all have nothing support for your situation. You have done nothing wrong whereas Leon,Al and Lisa have all covered up Leon's behaviour and have not protected their mode's,even after Leon's conviction.
I admire the fact you are determined Leon won't receive another penny despite the inconvenience to yourself. I can see Derek is mortified by the 'unfair' effect on you whilst trying to be professional about removing Mostwam from this site.
If it helps you Derek and you Wamgame 'we' think your content should be allowed to stay regardless of the fact Leon/Mostwam earnt rent from it using this logic. He didn't contribute to the content. It could be anybody's building or facilities. You have shown excellent behaviour and a good attitude towards the situation.
On that basis I don't think if any of your content filmed there currently in the store or that still needs to go in should be allowed. It would be wise to tell Derek now how much material you have so its agreed nothing new is filmed that gives Leon rent.
Derek,I don't think you are relaxing your principals in supporting Wam Game and in fact doing a good thing given they now choose to not do business with Leon.
I don't think anybody will complain about support for Wam Game.
I hope that helps and I hope the other studio owners can contact you Wam Game to assist you.
Well this sure as shit has been an eventful couple weeks on UMD. I know I'm basically a second-rate court jester in this online ecosystem, but here's a few loose thoughts:
Putting aside the question of whether Leon did it (which he very likely did), it's already clear that a large portion of the userbase is uncomfortable being in the same community as a registered sex offender. And can you blame us for not wanting a sex offender in what is, broadly speaking, a sex-centric community? Are we really the kind of people who can allow sex offenses but draw the line at swindling customers?
(And as a side note, sexually assaulting a colleague is a real motherfuck of a stress response. I mean I don't know about y'all but I usually respond to stress by sleeping more and eating junk food.)
The way I see it, this is MM's forum, so it's his call whether to drop Leon-- suffice to say he's made the right one for the wellbeing of the community-- and what to do about other sites that use his space.
Zero tolerance there is a little much, as it's apparent those store owners were unaware of Leon's offenses (which ain't a good look for Leon) and that should be in some way factored into things. My suggestion would be for UMD to allow release, etc. of any unreleased material already shot there, and leave it to the producers how to decide what to actually release or scrap in light of the situation. Going forward is, of course, a different matter. (I'm no expert, but if memory serves our very own CandyCustard has a filming space with comparable capabilities, so it's likely worthwhile for any producers who formerly used mostwam's facilities to reach out to her if they haven't done so already. Even if I'm wrong and she no longer has that filming space, I wouldn't be at all surprised if she could give them some pointers for what else is available to them.)
It's disappointing but not surprising to see the response from certain aspects of the community-- the word 'cesspool' admittedly comes to mind. Honestly my advice to anyone vocally disagreeing with MM's decision making here is that, hey, it's free market! They're welcome to start their own messy forum and invite Leon to join. Just, y'know, don't be surprised if membership struggles to reach double digits.
(Actually if anything the biggest surprise to me in all this, aside from Leon's actions and subsequent conviction, has been discovering that MM's name is Derek. Guy never struck me as having Derek vibes, y'know?)
Youtube moderation has come up a couple times, but the way I see it their low standards shouldn't be an excuse to drop ours. We can and have done better, and it's in the best interests of the community to continue to do so.
Putting aside the question of whether Leon did it (which he very likely did), it's already clear that a large portion of the userbase is uncomfortable being in the same community as a registered sex offender. And can you blame us for not wanting a sex offender in what is, broadly speaking, a sex-centric community? Are we really the kind of people who can allow sex offenses but draw the line at swindling customers?
(And as a side note, sexually assaulting a colleague is a real motherfuck of a stress response. I mean I don't know about y'all but I usually respond to stress by sleeping more and eating junk food.)
The way I see it, this is MM's forum, so it's his call whether to drop Leon-- suffice to say he's made the right one for the wellbeing of the community-- and what to do about other sites that use his space.
Zero tolerance there is a little much, as it's apparent those store owners were unaware of Leon's offenses (which ain't a good look for Leon) and that should be in some way factored into things. My suggestion would be for UMD to allow release, etc. of any unreleased material already shot there, and leave it to the producers how to decide what to actually release or scrap in light of the situation. Going forward is, of course, a different matter. (I'm no expert, but if memory serves our very own CandyCustard has a filming space with comparable capabilities, so it's likely worthwhile for any producers who formerly used mostwam's facilities to reach out to her if they haven't done so already. Even if I'm wrong and she no longer has that filming space, I wouldn't be at all surprised if she could give them some pointers for what else is available to them.)
It's disappointing but not surprising to see the response from certain aspects of the community-- the word 'cesspool' admittedly comes to mind. Honestly my advice to anyone vocally disagreeing with MM's decision making here is that, hey, it's free market! They're welcome to start their own messy forum and invite Leon to join. Just, y'know, don't be surprised if membership struggles to reach double digits.
(Actually if anything the biggest surprise to me in all this, aside from Leon's actions and subsequent conviction, has been discovering that MM's name is Derek. Guy never struck me as having Derek vibes, y'know?)
Youtube moderation has come up a couple times, but the way I see it their low standards shouldn't be an excuse to drop ours. We can and have done better, and it's in the best interests of the community to continue to do so.
VAVAVIE said:
As the person who had to post the information about Leon,Al and Lisa initially on behalf of one former Mostwam model and now speaking with her friends who were also models there 'we' all have nothing support for your situation. You have done nothing wrong whereas Leon,Al and Lisa have all covered up Leon's behaviour and have not protected their mode's,even after Leon's conviction.
I admire the fact you are determined Leon won't receive another penny despite the inconvenience to yourself. I can see Derek is mortified by the 'unfair' effect on you whilst trying to be professional about removing Mostwam from this site.
If it helps you Derek and you Wamgame 'we' think your content should be allowed to stay regardless of the fact Leon/Mostwam earnt rent from it using this logic. He didn't contribute to the content. It could be anybody's building or facilities. You have shown excellent behaviour and a good attitude towards the situation.
On that basis I don't think if any of your content filmed there currently in the store or that still needs to go in should be allowed. It would be wise to tell Derek now how much material you have so its agreed nothing new is filmed that gives Leon rent.
Derek,I don't think you are relaxing your principals in supporting Wam Game and in fact doing a good thing given they now choose to not do business with Leon.
I don't think anybody will complain about support for Wam Game.
I hope that helps and I hope the other studio owners can contact you Wam Game to assist you.
wamgame said:
Thankyou! Appreciate that And it's already untied. I changed the payment addy to my own last night. Leon and his studio won't be getting a penny more from me. Like the rest of you I am disgusted by the treatment of his model, but yes, not enjoying being caught up in it either.
wamfan said:
I'm really not accusing you of anything, and I apologize if you felt I was implying that. I see you as another victim of Leon's criminal behavior. You stated that your arrangement is that he get's 50% of the sales from your store, so your sales are unfortunately tied to Leon. I hope you can get untied and continue to make scenes.
Wamgame2 said:
In "perpetuity"? Do you seriously think I would have continued using his place if I'd know about his record?
In "perpetuity"? Do you seriously think I would have continued using his place if I'd know about his record?
I'm really not accusing you of anything, and I apologize if you felt I was implying that. I see you as another victim of Leon's criminal behavior. You stated that your arrangement is that he get's 50% of the sales from your store, so your sales are unfortunately tied to Leon. I hope you can get untied and continue to make scenes.
Thankyou! Appreciate that
And it's already untied. I changed the payment addy to my own last night. Leon and his studio won't be getting a penny more from me. Like the rest of you I am disgusted by the treatment of his model, but yes, not enjoying being caught up in it either. As the person who had to post the information about Leon,Al and Lisa initially on behalf of one former Mostwam model and now speaking with her friends who were also models there 'we' all have nothing support for your situation. You have done nothing wrong whereas Leon,Al and Lisa have all covered up Leon's behaviour and have not protected their mode's,even after Leon's conviction.
I admire the fact you are determined Leon won't receive another penny despite the inconvenience to yourself. I can see Derek is mortified by the 'unfair' effect on you whilst trying to be professional about removing Mostwam from this site.
If it helps you Derek and you Wamgame 'we' think your content should be allowed to stay regardless of the fact Leon/Mostwam earnt rent from it using this logic. He didn't contribute to the content. It could be anybody's building or facilities. You have shown excellent behaviour and a good attitude towards the situation.
On that basis I don't think if any of your content filmed there currently in the store or that still needs to go in should be allowed. It would be wise to tell Derek now how much material you have so its agreed nothing new is filmed that gives Leon rent.
Derek,I don't think you are relaxing your principals in supporting Wam Game and in fact doing a good thing given they now choose to not do business with Leon.
I don't think anybody will complain about support for Wam Game.
I hope that helps and I hope the other studio owners can contact you Wam Game to assist you.
Id like to hope and think Lisa legitmatley did not know about this till it was too late, but if any were party to covering up actions (any other models reading this) speak up now approach your local law enforcement and do not let them away with it
VAVAVIE said:
As the person who had to post the information about Leon,Al and Lisa initially on behalf of one former Mostwam model and now speaking with her friends who were also models there 'we' all have nothing support for your situation. You have done nothing wrong whereas Leon,Al and Lisa have all covered up Leon's behaviour and have not protected their mode's,even after Leon's conviction.
I admire the fact you are determined Leon won't receive another penny despite the inconvenience to yourself. I can see Derek is mortified by the 'unfair' effect on you whilst trying to be professional about removing Mostwam from this site.
If it helps you Derek and you Wamgame 'we' think your content should be allowed to stay regardless of the fact Leon/Mostwam earnt rent from it using this logic. He didn't contribute to the content. It could be anybody's building or facilities. You have shown excellent behaviour and a good attitude towards the situation.
On that basis I don't think if any of your content filmed there currently in the store or that still needs to go in should be allowed. It would be wise to tell Derek now how much material you have so its agreed nothing new is filmed that gives Leon rent.
Derek,I don't think you are relaxing your principals in supporting Wam Game and in fact doing a good thing given they now choose to not do business with Leon.
I don't think anybody will complain about support for Wam Game.
I hope that helps and I hope the other studio owners can contact you Wam Game to assist you.
wamgame said:
Thankyou! Appreciate that And it's already untied. I changed the payment addy to my own last night. Leon and his studio won't be getting a penny more from me. Like the rest of you I am disgusted by the treatment of his model, but yes, not enjoying being caught up in it either.
wamfan said:
I'm really not accusing you of anything, and I apologize if you felt I was implying that. I see you as another victim of Leon's criminal behavior. You stated that your arrangement is that he get's 50% of the sales from your store, so your sales are unfortunately tied to Leon. I hope you can get untied and continue to make scenes.
Wamgame2 said:
In "perpetuity"? Do you seriously think I would have continued using his place if I'd know about his record?
In "perpetuity"? Do you seriously think I would have continued using his place if I'd know about his record?
I'm really not accusing you of anything, and I apologize if you felt I was implying that. I see you as another victim of Leon's criminal behavior. You stated that your arrangement is that he get's 50% of the sales from your store, so your sales are unfortunately tied to Leon. I hope you can get untied and continue to make scenes.
Thankyou! Appreciate that
And it's already untied. I changed the payment addy to my own last night. Leon and his studio won't be getting a penny more from me. Like the rest of you I am disgusted by the treatment of his model, but yes, not enjoying being caught up in it either. As the person who had to post the information about Leon,Al and Lisa initially on behalf of one former Mostwam model and now speaking with her friends who were also models there 'we' all have nothing support for your situation. You have done nothing wrong whereas Leon,Al and Lisa have all covered up Leon's behaviour and have not protected their mode's,even after Leon's conviction.
I admire the fact you are determined Leon won't receive another penny despite the inconvenience to yourself. I can see Derek is mortified by the 'unfair' effect on you whilst trying to be professional about removing Mostwam from this site.
If it helps you Derek and you Wamgame 'we' think your content should be allowed to stay regardless of the fact Leon/Mostwam earnt rent from it using this logic. He didn't contribute to the content. It could be anybody's building or facilities. You have shown excellent behaviour and a good attitude towards the situation.
On that basis I don't think if any of your content filmed there currently in the store or that still needs to go in should be allowed. It would be wise to tell Derek now how much material you have so its agreed nothing new is filmed that gives Leon rent.
Derek,I don't think you are relaxing your principals in supporting Wam Game and in fact doing a good thing given they now choose to not do business with Leon.
I don't think anybody will complain about support for Wam Game.
I hope that helps and I hope the other studio owners can contact you Wam Game to assist you.
Thank you so much - everything you say here means a lot to me. As I said to Derek I have no problem with him doing it this way to get debate and opinions. It's just not very pleasant to find yourself caught up in it
cowboi1 said:
Id like to hope and think Lisa legitmatley did not know about this till it was too late, but if any were party to covering up actions (any other models reading this) speak up now approach your local law enforcement and do not let them away with it
VAVAVIE said:
As the person who had to post the information about Leon,Al and Lisa initially on behalf of one former Mostwam model and now speaking with her friends who were also models there 'we' all have nothing support for your situation. You have done nothing wrong whereas Leon,Al and Lisa have all covered up Leon's behaviour and have not protected their mode's,even after Leon's conviction.
I admire the fact you are determined Leon won't receive another penny despite the inconvenience to yourself. I can see Derek is mortified by the 'unfair' effect on you whilst trying to be professional about removing Mostwam from this site.
If it helps you Derek and you Wamgame 'we' think your content should be allowed to stay regardless of the fact Leon/Mostwam earnt rent from it using this logic. He didn't contribute to the content. It could be anybody's building or facilities. You have shown excellent behaviour and a good attitude towards the situation.
On that basis I don't think if any of your content filmed there currently in the store or that still needs to go in should be allowed. It would be wise to tell Derek now how much material you have so its agreed nothing new is filmed that gives Leon rent.
Derek,I don't think you are relaxing your principals in supporting Wam Game and in fact doing a good thing given they now choose to not do business with Leon.
I don't think anybody will complain about support for Wam Game.
I hope that helps and I hope the other studio owners can contact you Wam Game to assist you.
wamgame said:
Thankyou! Appreciate that And it's already untied. I changed the payment addy to my own last night. Leon and his studio won't be getting a penny more from me. Like the rest of you I am disgusted by the treatment of his model, but yes, not enjoying being caught up in it either.
wamfan said:
I'm really not accusing you of anything, and I apologize if you felt I was implying that. I see you as another victim of Leon's criminal behavior. You stated that your arrangement is that he get's 50% of the sales from your store, so your sales are unfortunately tied to Leon. I hope you can get untied and continue to make scenes.
Wamgame2 said:
In "perpetuity"? Do you seriously think I would have continued using his place if I'd know about his record?
In "perpetuity"? Do you seriously think I would have continued using his place if I'd know about his record?
I'm really not accusing you of anything, and I apologize if you felt I was implying that. I see you as another victim of Leon's criminal behavior. You stated that your arrangement is that he get's 50% of the sales from your store, so your sales are unfortunately tied to Leon. I hope you can get untied and continue to make scenes.
Thankyou! Appreciate that
And it's already untied. I changed the payment addy to my own last night. Leon and his studio won't be getting a penny more from me. Like the rest of you I am disgusted by the treatment of his model, but yes, not enjoying being caught up in it either. As the person who had to post the information about Leon,Al and Lisa initially on behalf of one former Mostwam model and now speaking with her friends who were also models there 'we' all have nothing support for your situation. You have done nothing wrong whereas Leon,Al and Lisa have all covered up Leon's behaviour and have not protected their mode's,even after Leon's conviction.
I admire the fact you are determined Leon won't receive another penny despite the inconvenience to yourself. I can see Derek is mortified by the 'unfair' effect on you whilst trying to be professional about removing Mostwam from this site.
If it helps you Derek and you Wamgame 'we' think your content should be allowed to stay regardless of the fact Leon/Mostwam earnt rent from it using this logic. He didn't contribute to the content. It could be anybody's building or facilities. You have shown excellent behaviour and a good attitude towards the situation.
On that basis I don't think if any of your content filmed there currently in the store or that still needs to go in should be allowed. It would be wise to tell Derek now how much material you have so its agreed nothing new is filmed that gives Leon rent.
Derek,I don't think you are relaxing your principals in supporting Wam Game and in fact doing a good thing given they now choose to not do business with Leon.
I don't think anybody will complain about support for Wam Game.
I hope that helps and I hope the other studio owners can contact you Wam Game to assist you.
Id like to hope and think Lisa legitmatley did not know about this till it was too late, but if any were party to covering up actions (any other models reading this) speak up now approach your local law enforcement and do not let them away with it
Reading your comments I think you may have missed a fair bit of information provide by me and then unwittingly provided by Leon himself and Al.
So this should answer those queries. There is Limited Company in the UK that owns all the 'Leon' brands. That particular company can of course be accessed by anyone on Companies House. Up until Lisa leaving Leon in August 2020 (info provided by Leon) Lisa had 40% and Leon 60% . 10 days after that split 100% of shares were all put into Leon's name.
The sexual assault Leon convicted for was just after Lisa left him (Leon's words and Al's words). So Leon and Al kept that from customers,MM and models. Al,in trying to distance himself from Leon claimed 90% of the Mostwam work was carried out by him (Al) and Lisa.
If that is true then Al and Lisa are totally complicit (90%) for not contacting Messmaster in regard to their business with UMD.
In March 2022 when Leon was convicted the content showing one model was removed. An UMD member spotted this and asked why this had happened. The Lisamoonin profile answered saying they didn't know why but they had been asked by that model to remove content. I asked Leon directly if he was pretending to be Lisa. He said not it was definitely Lisa posted. If so Lisa was again complicit in the cover up or Leon was lying.
Judging by info now coming out from other sources but also including from Leon it's very clear even after the conviction and only 2 months later Leon took 5 models to stay with him abroad and by Leons account it was complete chaos involving drugs and drunken behaviour. The girls only found out about his sex offenders conviction whilst over there. Leon as Leonmoonin as recently as last week was posting lots of promo scenes. So to make it clear,Leon owns all the Mostwam and other sites 100%. Al and Lisa are both involved with the day to day running. All chose not to inform their biggest business they do business with,the UMD.
Obviously one could mitigate Lisa's full involvement in the deceit and other models have said Lisa was treated badly so who knows the exact truth. Since I posted the article , (which was shown to me after a chance conversation absolutely nothing to do with UMD where the only part of the conversation I recognised was the word Mostwam) other models have come out with 'Leon' situations. So we have the victim of the assault,the girl that Leon and Al incorrrectly think is talking to me, XXXXXX who wanted her pics removed,the girl that posted on here about the trip abroad, Jessie complaining about treatment (show to me by Penny via a conversation in the UMD producers forum) and the 4 girls I have now spoken to (who by the way are preceding Al) and then a few older customers have mentioned some inappropraite behaviour to do with nightclubs, normal students and a company called Gunjee where girls were gunged and foamed by Leon with him having a feel. I've been sent some links of Leon in different films that I haven't watched yet.
So any of these Mostwam people haven't acted honestly and professionally. From a UMD point of view they need to be gone from here forever. Whatever business they go on to do via their websites is down to them. Whatever procedures they now claim to have is down to them. If any models take action against Leon then that is outside here. Any customers from here can still buy their product direct from their websites.
So it's far from a witch hunt as some idiots have said. It's not for us to debate whether a girl was or wasn't assaulted,how British law works or trying to justify anything anyone at Mostwam has done. The facts are enough to remove them from here.
The one crossover is Wam Game renting space from Leon and purchasing gunge plus employing Al as a cameraman 3 times. To me despite Leon earning a rent their content has nothing to do with Leon. So they are innocent of everything and had pledged to never use Leon again. I hope that helps.
Messmaster said:
Right now I'm leaning toward letting associates like Wamgame stay, and even publish previously-shot material, so long as they can guarantee the content wasn't shot in the presence of Leon, and any new content doesn't come from those studios or have anything to do with MostWam.
Right now I'm leaning toward letting associates like Wamgame stay, and even publish previously-shot material, so long as they can guarantee the content wasn't shot in the presence of Leon, and any new content doesn't come from those studios or have anything to do with MostWam.
I'd like to push you toward that route, if you don't mind.
As a female, it really, truly doesn't make me feel safer on the forum if people who haven't done anything bad and didn't even know that something bad was being done are being banished.
Nessie
I've been on this site for a really, really long time now. (more then this acc shows) 
Sorry for putting it so harshly, but I came back from vacation today and while quickly skimming this reproachful post in reverse order, I thought Leon almost killed a model.
I am well aware that the safety of the models on this site is our top priority.
I think MM made the right decision to leave the discussion open.
Leon has pleaded guilty and will probably have to bear the consequences for a lifetime. It's MM's it was probably the right decision to ban him form the site.
Nevertheless, I personally think that people are completely overreacting here.
I mean I hope you are all aware that we have destroyed lives here and with all due respect to the victim, but we create more victims here and may do more harm than the original act.
The crime was committed by a single person.
One of my neighbors raped an intern at his company (true story, he was CEO with over 90 employees)
It took years for this to come out. He went to prison for his actions.
But he alone had to bear the consequences, and not the company or its employees. The company is still managed by his son, who previously supported his father in the company. . They weren't banned from advertising, nor were all the partners penalized for having anything to do with the company.
It feels as if many are being punished here who are innocent.
Theoretically, you could also ban all people who have a sub at MW from UMD, because they supported Leon. Even if they didn't know it, it would have been publicly available to read...
since March 2022
I just think it was embarrassing enough for those involved and they didn't want to denounce it here in the forum
You have to be very careful these days not to hurt someone's feelings ....so please let's get down to facts. much here is unconfirmed. who are we to decide.
And believe me I understand that certain actions had to be taken here. But I think this is just going too far.
I also see how difficult it must be for MM to find the right justice here.
For good togetherness
Sorry for putting it so harshly, but I came back from vacation today and while quickly skimming this reproachful post in reverse order, I thought Leon almost killed a model.
I am well aware that the safety of the models on this site is our top priority.
I think MM made the right decision to leave the discussion open.
Leon has pleaded guilty and will probably have to bear the consequences for a lifetime. It's MM's it was probably the right decision to ban him form the site.
Nevertheless, I personally think that people are completely overreacting here.
I mean I hope you are all aware that we have destroyed lives here and with all due respect to the victim, but we create more victims here and may do more harm than the original act.
The crime was committed by a single person.
One of my neighbors raped an intern at his company (true story, he was CEO with over 90 employees)
It took years for this to come out. He went to prison for his actions.
But he alone had to bear the consequences, and not the company or its employees. The company is still managed by his son, who previously supported his father in the company. . They weren't banned from advertising, nor were all the partners penalized for having anything to do with the company.
It feels as if many are being punished here who are innocent.
Theoretically, you could also ban all people who have a sub at MW from UMD, because they supported Leon. Even if they didn't know it, it would have been publicly available to read...
since March 2022
I just think it was embarrassing enough for those involved and they didn't want to denounce it here in the forum
You have to be very careful these days not to hurt someone's feelings ....so please let's get down to facts. much here is unconfirmed. who are we to decide.
And believe me I understand that certain actions had to be taken here. But I think this is just going too far.
I also see how difficult it must be for MM to find the right justice here.
For good togetherness
cowboi1 said:
You dont plead guilty and face life ruining consenquences unless you are infact guilty. You go to court and fight tooth and nail with laywer who will pick apart her story and if shes lying she would be caught
You dont plead guilty and face life ruining consenquences unless you are infact guilty. You go to court and fight tooth and nail with laywer who will pick apart her story and if shes lying she would be caught
This is not true at all, you only need to look at people who were basically forced to plead. Not to say I think this guy is innocent, his story stinks.
34gate said:
Didn't disagree that it happened, said I was skeptical that anything really 'wrong' happened. I don't find "he confessed" and "he said it was a mistake" to be really compelling. What is someone in that position supposed to say?
Didn't disagree that it happened, said I was skeptical that anything really 'wrong' happened. I don't find "he confessed" and "he said it was a mistake" to be really compelling. What is someone in that position supposed to say?
Well if he didn't do anything wrong, maybe say that and then don't plead guilty in a court of law would be good examples.
34gate said:
I'm sorry, but no one is writing a novel like that, pouring in that much detective work on a porn site, all to post on another porn site they've barely interacted with before without some kind of personal vendetta or being a massive whiteknight simp.
Which calls everything else you've said into question. For all we know, you could be the girl who accused him, on some insane revenge vendetta. It's crazy to say anything here is "not up for debate."
VAVAVIE said:
Reading your comments I think you may have missed a fair bit of information provide by me and then unwittingly provided by Leon himself and Al.
So this should answer those queries. There is Limited Company in the UK that owns all the 'Leon' brands. That particular company can of course be accessed by anyone on Companies House. Up until Lisa leaving Leon in August 2020 (info provided by Leon) Lisa had 40% and Leon 60% . 10 days after that split 100% of shares were all put into Leon's name.
The sexual assault Leon convicted for was just after Lisa left him (Leon's words and Al's words). So Leon and Al kept that from customers,MM and models. Al,in trying to distance himself from Leon claimed 90% of the Mostwam work was carried out by him (Al) and Lisa.
If that is true then Al and Lisa are totally complicit (90%) for not contacting Messmaster in regard to their business with UMD.
In March 2022 when Leon was convicted the content showing one model was removed. An UMD member spotted this and asked why this had happened. The Lisamoonin profile answered saying they didn't know why but they had been asked by that model to remove content. I asked Leon directly if he was pretending to be Lisa. He said not it was definitely Lisa posted. If so Lisa was again complicit in the cover up or Leon was lying.
Judging by info now coming out from other sources but also including from Leon it's very clear even after the conviction and only 2 months later Leon took 5 models to stay with him abroad and by Leons account it was complete chaos involving drugs and drunken behaviour. The girls only found out about his sex offenders conviction whilst over there. Leon as Leonmoonin as recently as last week was posting lots of promo scenes. So to make it clear,Leon owns all the Mostwam and other sites 100%. Al and Lisa are both involved with the day to day running. All chose not to inform their biggest business they do business with,the UMD.
Obviously one could mitigate Lisa's full involvement in the deceit and other models have said Lisa was treated badly so who knows the exact truth. Since I posted the article , (which was shown to me after a chance conversation absolutely nothing to do with UMD where the only part of the conversation I recognised was the word Mostwam) other models have come out with 'Leon' situations. So we have the victim of the assault,the girl that Leon and Al incorrrectly think is talking to me, XXXXXX who wanted her pics removed,the girl that posted on here about the trip abroad, Jessie complaining about treatment (show to me by Penny via a conversation in the UMD producers forum) and the 4 girls I have now spoken to (who by the way are preceding Al) and then a few older customers have mentioned some inappropraite behaviour to do with nightclubs, normal students and a company called Gunjee where girls were gunged and foamed by Leon with him having a feel. I've been sent some links of Leon in different films that I haven't watched yet.
So any of these Mostwam people haven't acted honestly and professionally. From a UMD point of view they need to be gone from here forever. Whatever business they go on to do via their websites is down to them. Whatever procedures they now claim to have is down to them. If any models take action against Leon then that is outside here. Any customers from here can still buy their product direct from their websites.
So it's far from a witch hunt as some idiots have said. It's not for us to debate whether a girl was or wasn't assaulted,how British law works or trying to justify anything anyone at Mostwam has done. The facts are enough to remove them from here.
The one crossover is Wam Game renting space from Leon and purchasing gunge plus employing Al as a cameraman 3 times. To me despite Leon earning a rent their content has nothing to do with Leon. So they are innocent of everything and had pledged to never use Leon again. I hope that helps.
cowboi1 said:
Id like to hope and think Lisa legitmatley did not know about this till it was too late, but if any were party to covering up actions (any other models reading this) speak up now approach your local law enforcement and do not let them away with it
VAVAVIE said:
As the person who had to post the information about Leon,Al and Lisa initially on behalf of one former Mostwam model and now speaking with her friends who were also models there 'we' all have nothing support for your situation. You have done nothing wrong whereas Leon,Al and Lisa have all covered up Leon's behaviour and have not protected their mode's,even after Leon's conviction.
I admire the fact you are determined Leon won't receive another penny despite the inconvenience to yourself. I can see Derek is mortified by the 'unfair' effect on you whilst trying to be professional about removing Mostwam from this site.
If it helps you Derek and you Wamgame 'we' think your content should be allowed to stay regardless of the fact Leon/Mostwam earnt rent from it using this logic. He didn't contribute to the content. It could be anybody's building or facilities. You have shown excellent behaviour and a good attitude towards the situation.
On that basis I don't think if any of your content filmed there currently in the store or that still needs to go in should be allowed. It would be wise to tell Derek now how much material you have so its agreed nothing new is filmed that gives Leon rent.
Derek,I don't think you are relaxing your principals in supporting Wam Game and in fact doing a good thing given they now choose to not do business with Leon.
I don't think anybody will complain about support for Wam Game.
I hope that helps and I hope the other studio owners can contact you Wam Game to assist you.
wamgame said:
Thankyou! Appreciate that And it's already untied. I changed the payment addy to my own last night. Leon and his studio won't be getting a penny more from me. Like the rest of you I am disgusted by the treatment of his model, but yes, not enjoying being caught up in it either.
wamfan said:
I'm really not accusing you of anything, and I apologize if you felt I was implying that. I see you as another victim of Leon's criminal behavior. You stated that your arrangement is that he get's 50% of the sales from your store, so your sales are unfortunately tied to Leon. I hope you can get untied and continue to make scenes.
Wamgame2 said:
In "perpetuity"? Do you seriously think I would have continued using his place if I'd know about his record?
In "perpetuity"? Do you seriously think I would have continued using his place if I'd know about his record?
I'm really not accusing you of anything, and I apologize if you felt I was implying that. I see you as another victim of Leon's criminal behavior. You stated that your arrangement is that he get's 50% of the sales from your store, so your sales are unfortunately tied to Leon. I hope you can get untied and continue to make scenes.
Thankyou! Appreciate that
And it's already untied. I changed the payment addy to my own last night. Leon and his studio won't be getting a penny more from me. Like the rest of you I am disgusted by the treatment of his model, but yes, not enjoying being caught up in it either. As the person who had to post the information about Leon,Al and Lisa initially on behalf of one former Mostwam model and now speaking with her friends who were also models there 'we' all have nothing support for your situation. You have done nothing wrong whereas Leon,Al and Lisa have all covered up Leon's behaviour and have not protected their mode's,even after Leon's conviction.
I admire the fact you are determined Leon won't receive another penny despite the inconvenience to yourself. I can see Derek is mortified by the 'unfair' effect on you whilst trying to be professional about removing Mostwam from this site.
If it helps you Derek and you Wamgame 'we' think your content should be allowed to stay regardless of the fact Leon/Mostwam earnt rent from it using this logic. He didn't contribute to the content. It could be anybody's building or facilities. You have shown excellent behaviour and a good attitude towards the situation.
On that basis I don't think if any of your content filmed there currently in the store or that still needs to go in should be allowed. It would be wise to tell Derek now how much material you have so its agreed nothing new is filmed that gives Leon rent.
Derek,I don't think you are relaxing your principals in supporting Wam Game and in fact doing a good thing given they now choose to not do business with Leon.
I don't think anybody will complain about support for Wam Game.
I hope that helps and I hope the other studio owners can contact you Wam Game to assist you.
Id like to hope and think Lisa legitmatley did not know about this till it was too late, but if any were party to covering up actions (any other models reading this) speak up now approach your local law enforcement and do not let them away with it
Reading your comments I think you may have missed a fair bit of information provide by me and then unwittingly provided by Leon himself and Al.
So this should answer those queries. There is Limited Company in the UK that owns all the 'Leon' brands. That particular company can of course be accessed by anyone on Companies House. Up until Lisa leaving Leon in August 2020 (info provided by Leon) Lisa had 40% and Leon 60% . 10 days after that split 100% of shares were all put into Leon's name.
The sexual assault Leon convicted for was just after Lisa left him (Leon's words and Al's words). So Leon and Al kept that from customers,MM and models. Al,in trying to distance himself from Leon claimed 90% of the Mostwam work was carried out by him (Al) and Lisa.
If that is true then Al and Lisa are totally complicit (90%) for not contacting Messmaster in regard to their business with UMD.
In March 2022 when Leon was convicted the content showing one model was removed. An UMD member spotted this and asked why this had happened. The Lisamoonin profile answered saying they didn't know why but they had been asked by that model to remove content. I asked Leon directly if he was pretending to be Lisa. He said not it was definitely Lisa posted. If so Lisa was again complicit in the cover up or Leon was lying.
Judging by info now coming out from other sources but also including from Leon it's very clear even after the conviction and only 2 months later Leon took 5 models to stay with him abroad and by Leons account it was complete chaos involving drugs and drunken behaviour. The girls only found out about his sex offenders conviction whilst over there. Leon as Leonmoonin as recently as last week was posting lots of promo scenes. So to make it clear,Leon owns all the Mostwam and other sites 100%. Al and Lisa are both involved with the day to day running. All chose not to inform their biggest business they do business with,the UMD.
Obviously one could mitigate Lisa's full involvement in the deceit and other models have said Lisa was treated badly so who knows the exact truth. Since I posted the article , (which was shown to me after a chance conversation absolutely nothing to do with UMD where the only part of the conversation I recognised was the word Mostwam) other models have come out with 'Leon' situations. So we have the victim of the assault,the girl that Leon and Al incorrrectly think is talking to me, XXXXXX who wanted her pics removed,the girl that posted on here about the trip abroad, Jessie complaining about treatment (show to me by Penny via a conversation in the UMD producers forum) and the 4 girls I have now spoken to (who by the way are preceding Al) and then a few older customers have mentioned some inappropraite behaviour to do with nightclubs, normal students and a company called Gunjee where girls were gunged and foamed by Leon with him having a feel. I've been sent some links of Leon in different films that I haven't watched yet.
So any of these Mostwam people haven't acted honestly and professionally. From a UMD point of view they need to be gone from here forever. Whatever business they go on to do via their websites is down to them. Whatever procedures they now claim to have is down to them. If any models take action against Leon then that is outside here. Any customers from here can still buy their product direct from their websites.
So it's far from a witch hunt as some idiots have said. It's not for us to debate whether a girl was or wasn't assaulted,how British law works or trying to justify anything anyone at Mostwam has done. The facts are enough to remove them from here.
The one crossover is Wam Game renting space from Leon and purchasing gunge plus employing Al as a cameraman 3 times. To me despite Leon earning a rent their content has nothing to do with Leon. So they are innocent of everything and had pledged to never use Leon again. I hope that helps.
I'm sorry, but no one is writing a novel like that, pouring in that much detective work on a porn site, all to post on another porn site they've barely interacted with before without some kind of personal vendetta or being a massive whiteknight simp.
Which calls everything else you've said into question. For all we know, you could be the girl who accused him, on some insane revenge vendetta. It's crazy to say anything here is "not up for debate."
I see you've written a couple of conspiracy theory type posts now. Congratulations on focusing on me instead of what one girl has gone through. There was little detective work involved. I only had to click on a link to a newspaper, look at a paper court transcript and type in a name into Companies House and look at the files.
You have proved why said girl didn't feel confident to post her own experience on this Forum.
No vendetta at all and if you read through everything I've written you'll see I only stated fact or asked Leon a direct question.
If behaving mostly in a professional matter (bar a couple of pisstakes of [Removed pejorative -MM]) means I'm a massive White Knight Simp [Removed pejorative -MM] then fine,that's what I will be.
For the record I have never worked for or with Mostwam,I was not contacted via UMD or in fact anything to do with a website. It was a conversation in which someone was discussing work they did quite a while ago (less than 17 years and more than 8 years ) and that the guy who owned the company had been done for molesting a girl. I,having an interest in WAM asked who he was and was it a website. She went to it on her phone. I looked through UMD at Leonmoonin then all the user names I found and could find zero mention of what had happened. I put his name,as given in the court case into companies house and the right area of Weston-Super-Mare came up and I had a look through the accounts,when Lisa had shares etc
For anyone with a brain and some business experience it's a simple check to carry out.
I didn't realise that posting a simple fact would lead to the big debate and had to learn how MM investigated in a particular style I now understand.
So sorry to disappoint and I'll have to live with being a White Knight 'Simp' in [Removed pejorative -MM] mind.
I can live with that.
A lot of my job involves this sort of thing, so I am posting as dispassionately as possible.
Starting point for sentencing is 2 year custodial sentence. Could have gone up to 7. Judge moved down to 18 months and then suspended it, which judge could only do if there is a realistic prospect of rehabilitation/strong personal mitigation/significant harmful impact. A suspended sentence is more serious than a community service order, which was also available.
This comment...
"Mr Hopper said there was no suggestion his client used his position as a photographer to set up the offence, which was "completely out of character" for him."
...suggests the defence was trying to move the starting point down from 2 years to 1, on the basis that it was not planned/abuse of power. I wonder if the judge went with 18 because it was between the two so didn't have to decide the point.
The judge's comment...
" I hope you can go back to being the man you were before this regretful day."
...suggests it was a first time. Or at least the prosecution did not bring any other examples forward.
Guilty plea means mental health cannot be raised as a defence. Generally a defendant cannot raise it unless they have genuinely lost their capacity to tell right from wrong, or are not in control of their actions.
Starting point for sentencing is 2 year custodial sentence. Could have gone up to 7. Judge moved down to 18 months and then suspended it, which judge could only do if there is a realistic prospect of rehabilitation/strong personal mitigation/significant harmful impact. A suspended sentence is more serious than a community service order, which was also available.
This comment...
"Mr Hopper said there was no suggestion his client used his position as a photographer to set up the offence, which was "completely out of character" for him."
...suggests the defence was trying to move the starting point down from 2 years to 1, on the basis that it was not planned/abuse of power. I wonder if the judge went with 18 because it was between the two so didn't have to decide the point.
The judge's comment...
" I hope you can go back to being the man you were before this regretful day."
...suggests it was a first time. Or at least the prosecution did not bring any other examples forward.
Guilty plea means mental health cannot be raised as a defence. Generally a defendant cannot raise it unless they have genuinely lost their capacity to tell right from wrong, or are not in control of their actions.
goodtimes said: This is a call for a girl to take over the business? Poppy, sky?
That's not how business works. You don't just "take over", and it's been made clear that many will not be satisfied with Leon earning any income from here, so him appointing a woman as manager wouldn't be enough. They'd have to buy ownership, and no offense to either, but I doubt they could afford it.
I'm not the most articulate person. I know the true victim in this is the model. But I just have to say this from a personal perspective. The way wamgame has conducted himself through this whole situation is nothing short of admirable. He has found himself in a situation that is not of his own making and immediately took steps to distance himself from it. Every time he was questioned he didn't go on the attack. He listened, engaged and came to the conclusion that we all want. I sincerely hope that we as a community can help him and secure his future. If I were a producer, I would. We'll get through this. If it's in our power to minimise the collateral damage to an innocent party, I hope that we can.
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