After a chaotic and unfortunate weekend, the decision was made that Leon, and possibly others associated with MostWam, can't stay here. I really needed to hear from you, and I needed the community to talk about this publicly, so that's why I let the original post rage on. https://umd.net/forums/mostwam-owner-convicted-for-groping-wam It was initially locked by an admin for fear of possible doxxing, but I unlocked it when I found out. I was asked by Penny as well as Leon and others to lock the thread and I declined do it. Not because locking would look like censorship, but because the precedent that this will set affects us all and should be hammered out under public scrutiny. I know the advantage, years on, of having a situation unfold publicly. It's been extremely painful, but I think this is something we needed to work through together. No matter how heated this argument got, every single person was being defensive of this community. Every single one. I don't think anyone knows better than me how amazing that is.

Of course the overwhelming concern was always for the safety of this community and the those who model for it. After working with him for 25 years, we've definitely had blowups but I never pegged Leon as some harasser. But no matter the circumstance you can't get past the fact that he plead guilty, under oath. On top of that, trust was lost with Leon's not telling me or the community what was going on. He took away our choice of how to handle it, left us exposed, and would only post about it once someone else made it public and all hell had broken loose. I've spoken with Lisa, and I know she's definitely a victim in all this. But the truth is that nobody at MostWam et al would tell me about this, even though we've all talked plenty of times since the incident. They all covered it up. If Leon is to go, I think anything short of a clean break from the entire team is probably disingenuous. For example, Wamgame uses Leon's billing and studio time. I'm looking for community opinion on this. But at this time, Leon's stores have already been closed, and his account will be removed. I'm still talking with his other associates about their removal.

Sadly, there was misogyny in some posts about this issue, some of which I had to delete or edit out. This is not okay and needs to be called out. Even if you think you are justified, think twice before being blithe or making a joke about this. It's literally the worst situation imaginable to call your own judgement into question. There were also some people making honest attempts to bring perspective to this for the sake of all our sanity, only to basically be accused of supporting a harasser themselves. Yes, bullying can happen even in pursuit of the most moral thing. I encourage everyone to try not to be dismissive. Especially to the victim, not only because she's not here to speak for herself, but because there are other victims here who might as well be her.

I'll respond to this thread as needed. I'll probably be slow because it's all still chaos in the backend, but know that I'm working as fast as I can while still running the site. Please continue to post your views and to inbox me with your thoughts if you don't want them public.

Peace,
Messmaster

[Edit: Please try and read through this whole thread before responding. Many questions have already been answered.]

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[Edit 10/28/22: Pasting final message of this thread below for the TL;DR....]

Okay so that happened. After a straight week of this, I know we are all exhausted. We definitely need some closure and a revived sense of security and direction for the site. These repeating circles of arguments are unsustainable and are ripping us apart. Tensions are so high that there seems to be no end in sight. But it's time for peace again. To better prepare for situations like these there need to be updated terms and clear courses of action that we all already know about and can refer to, lest the community devour itself in endless doubt and cynicism.

Policy Updates
The original policy was that if it didn't happen here, and there is no evidence that can possibly be verified via our own sources, then it would be left open to public debate so individuals can decide for themselves how to react and who to support. We don't have the resources to run background checks or to hire private investigators to probe accusations of events that took place out in the real world. We also can't sustain endless he said / she said / they said and pressure campaigns to get one's way. So now it's clear that there needs to be some extrernal guidepost that, even if imperfect, we can all look to to settle these matters.

The Terms of Service has been updated to clarify that court cases will now be our de facto standard in times when there is otherwise not enough direct evidence in our posession to make a decision about these things. So a guilty verdict of sexual assault will be sufficient cause to ban a person or to forbid them from joining in the first place. It would be silly to think there would never be circumstances that call for extra consideration, but given that competitors and people with a bone to pick do try to use me to leverage UMD against each other (and to avoid some of the subjectiveness), I will be giving the most deference to the standard of an actual court verdict. I encourage anyone who feels they are in posession of real evidence of sexual assault, and who is confident they know who the perpetrator is, please also report this information to the police.

Steps Taken
Though the incident that precipitated the revived concern for personal safety had nothing to with this site, the concerns are legit nonetheless. People want a renewed commitment from the management that shows the seriousness with which we take these matters. Thanks to community suggestions, here are some updates that have I made in the past week.

You could already have the site filter content from other individual users. One of the things it does is it omits their forum threads from your view. Now it also blanks out any of their replies that they may have written within others' threads (not if they're quoted by someone else though).

You could already block a person from messaging you, but now your block also prevents them from replying to your thread, and from directly replying to any of your replies. We can't really block them from seeing your posts tho.

Forum threads already have an auto-bury feature after ~3 flags, and auto-delete after ~5 flags depending on other factors. So the community has always had the power to erase any forum post if enough people had flagged it. But these are knobs that I'll be turning for quicker effect, and I'll be encouraging more community participation with flagging in the future.

An auto-gag feature has been added, which will cut off a user's posting abilities across the entire site if they receive a certain threshold of flags within a certain amount of time. That will let community consensus quickly mute an individual while giving me time to review and assess if I'm ever away or overwhelmed at the moment by other things going on.

I will continue to update our policy and TOS as we grow from this into the future. I've already udated our Admin Guidelines to explain exactly what to do if someone posts sensitive or controversial information that lies outside the scope of our existing content guidelines.

Steps to be Taken
Whether for practical or aesthetic reasons, I have some work to do on making it a bit more obvious that a person can be blocked while inside an inbox conversation. Each message already has a report link underneath it, but I'll also add a separate report as well as block link underneath the text area itself.

Every piece of media by a person is accompanied by a "report" link. On the report form I will be adding an additional checkbox to also block the user, similar to how I added the option to block a user while reporting them on the Contact page... which by the way I've promised to make the block/report page less intimidating and more visually obvious as to its intended use, though I'm not yet convinced that it's a good look to completely remove or hide the optional field that lets them speak their mind or give additional info. We'll see about that. I am severely backed up on running the site, plus still handling a massive number of inbox messages and these particular changes aren't quick, so unfortunately I can't guarantee a turnaround time on them.

Mostwam
About Leon, I don't know where he and MostWam are going or what their future plans are. We wish him, Lisa, and their family well and hope that he grows from this. Peace to Mostwam Al, as I've never had any beef with him outside of this and it's sad to see him go. Wamgame has been amazing throughout this and he will be able to keep his store. He had used Leon's studio and facilities but his business was sufficiently separated that I have confidence he was not included in the coverup. I'll be working with him on the remaining transitions he needs to make.

To the real victim in all this, we all wish you well. If you ever read this, I personally apologize that such controversy has been drummed up in your name. You didn't ask for any of this and we'll do our best in the future to treat such situations with even more gravity, and enforce more respectful communication regardless of viewpoint.

To Penny: I harbor no ill will toward you. Your account is still live and the door is still open. If you choose to never come back, I understand. I know you emailed me the other day and I have yet to get back to you, but I will as soon as I can clear my head and figure out what to say to you. Everybody, I ask you that not demonize Penny or accuse her of using fake accounts to attack us. I have no evidence of that. Despite her reactions, I feel her heart is genuine. When you feel like you're in a fight, you fight. Regardless of what happens, please show her respect always.

Moving On
This thread is now locked, but as always, anyone can contact me directly for suggestions, or start a thread for community discussion. If it's not related to WAM, please let's keep it in the Non Wam forum or it will be moved there. That's where all the really important debates can happen while leaving the Messy and Wetlook forums in peace. I only ask that everybody keep it civil.

There were a couple of true dicks that reared their heads in this discussion who needed to be banned for sure, but it's apparent to me that most of the defensiveness was really the venting of the type of fears and frustrations that we've all built up in our own personal lives. Despite how heated an argument gets, please remember that you're talking to another human who has been through some shit of their own, and that we're all vulnerable to each other. I apologize myself because I know I have come across as short or tone-deaf in my correspondence with some people this week. Sometimes I get so on my "just answer the damn question" that I can sometimes come across as cold and technical, especially while trying to keep up with the blistering speed that people were inboxing me this week.

Given the propensity for people to make up stuff in the vacuum of information, I may have to leave this thread up for reference, probably indefinitely. I may rename it to avoid some triggering. My fear is that it's so long that people will read just enough of it to become outraged all over again about questions that have been answered or settled later on. But that's the risk of extreme transparency and I feel the community is mature enough to handle it.

Thanks to everybody for their much needed advice, and for the support coming through on inbox, some of it from people I haven't heard from in years. I cried on most of them. And so did Messmistress, who has been having just as many sleepless nights as I have. She's been here by my side the entire time. Love you bay. Not that this is at all about me but there were a few times I really felt like giving up but you all held me together.

Conclusion
That's it for this thread everybody, but the learning continues. For now let's all take a deep breath and have a great, sloppy, slippery, gushy, mushy, splashy weekend.

Peace,
Messmaster

P.S. Thank you for WOTD! I promise I didn't do that myself!

He appears to be still posting as of 1 minute ago, about the situation. I'm hoping that's an oversight.

Thank you for the update, and thank you for making the difficult, but ultimately beneficial, choice with regard to the thread.

MM I've yet to hear from you about the Wamgame and MrWam's use of the studio, but appreciate you've been having a mare of a day.

Personally, not distracting from the seriousness of the issue, I set up a collaboration with MrWam three years ago and my only connection with MostWam is that Al does the filming and the payments are (were) processed through the MostWam account. I've already expressed to MM that I would be more than happy to transfer the payment processing to my own PP account if that would allow the male wam to continue.

As of this morning as I was unaware of the court case, have met Leon once in three years, and as stated have nothing to do with MostWam other than using the studio. I would be heartbroken if that now has to come to an end on umd as I have been here for many years both as Wamgame and previously as stingrayspike and have several months worth of scenes paid for at my own expense to be released over the coming months.

As this is such a sensitive situation I will of course accept what the community and MM decide is best

Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. My concerns are certainly alleviated and I think you're being very fair. I appreciate your honesty and transparency on this and your attentiveness to our needs and concerns. Your tireless work is not unnoticed or unappreciated. I am disappointed in the way some people contributed to this conversation, but I'm hopeful that we can overcome this together and move on positively from here. Keep up the amazing work you're doing, thanks for all your hard work

As I witness the activity here, I feel a range of emotions from anger and sadness and hope and pain. My greatest hope is that everyone can find their happiness. This morning after reading the information found, I still think the same thing.

The victim is traumatized. The trauma is deep and will take a lifetime to sort out. I also know that this trauma lives on both sides and includes persons close to each side. And for that I am equally as sad and frustrated to know that it is unfair to everyone involved either directly or indirectly. My hope is that people heal and grow stronger from the event. I don't see any solution in offering more judgement. The situation deserves kindness.

The fact that no one feels justice is perhaps the greatest indicator of this whole event. There's no perfect answer. And life doesn't work that way.

I am saddened to hear of people leaving or being asked to leave a family as that simply reduces value in a family. As a family, we make mistakes. As a family, we cannot ever agree to everything. As a family, sticking together is a deep concept that does not fulfill anyones goals except for the value a family has in of itself. Family means judgment is reserved, opinions are openly aired, and kindness and patience needs to be in over abundance.

I dislike the idea of judging people on a single act. It's too easy to self select a number of everyone's weaknesses and mistakes. And I dislike the idea of simplifying a situation. When we reduce it to a good vs bad issue, we are talking about true good and true evil. Most situations are not absolute and I have not witnessed true evil on here.

I dislike the blame on a moderator who has made his rules transparent. There's no right way to make a ruling. And the fact that no one is happy is similar to the court of law and public opinion. And there's no way to make a new decision and reverse the past.

I am no angel. I have a fetish. The fetish is pornographic. I have done things I hate myself for. I have done things people hate and will always carry with them forever. I will own these as everyone must. I would like to see the family here to continue as is. As chaotic and batshit crazy people are on the forum, it's hard not to love everyone here. Of course on or off the site, I would also have open arms and a similar love. Sadly, the family here would be diminished. And that's the one thing I hope to preserve.

Thank you for everyone speaking up. That's family. Not that pseudo crazy Kardashian and real housewives junk. That's just bullshit everyone can find a guilty pleasure in. When the discussion on a sex fetish platform has more meaning than televised tv, I realize how far the internet and UMD has matured. I still yearn for the Rob Blaine and Bill Shipton days even though the internet lacked this level of education. It was self dependent on having good values. The ones I see here in full display.

I take it I must have missed something?

Thank you for this update.

Thank you for your tireless work on handling what can only be described as a nightmare situation for you and the rest of the team here.

Thank you for allowing us to have the discussion in the other thread, which albeit was disappointing at times, it was also incredibly valuable and has given so much perspective and learning to an audience that clearly needed it.

Thank you for allowing that thread to remain so that people can come to it and continue to learn and understand from this unfortunate situation and the discussion surrounding it.

Thank you for your continued work in trying to make this a great and safe place. If nothing else, I think the lowest points of this weekend have shown all of us just how difficult that job may actually be for you guys, as we caught a glimpse of some of the worst elements of the community, that you probably have to deal with in private matters more frequently.

We also caught a glimpse of some of the best elements of the community, people having the courage to voice their opinions in support of what they believe is right, and offering support to those who needed it in an effort to make sure everyone here feels safe and valued.

Thank you thank you thank you

Well put

The account itself is not yet closed. That's coming soon.


I believe that if we are to be consistent, all connections to Mostwam would have to be severed. If it's possible that he's still involved with activities and content offered here, that likely won't work.


I really appreciate what you've done here, and I hate to do the guilt-by-association thing. But I do not know how the community would trust any other arrangement. I know that this is ending the livelihoods of several people who have no other income. I've lost a piece of myself in this whole ordeal.


This. Nothing to add, just wanted to quote the entire thing.

So it looks like it's also the end for Mr Wam and Wamgame just because I happen to film in the same studio space and payments were made through the same account.

Not much care and support for the innocent people caught up in this is there.

I'm so sorry to my loyal customers for all your support over the years both on this site and my previous stingrayspike site. I really doubt I will carry on after this stressful experience. The small amount I made from the venture was paying for food on the table as I am unemployed beyond this, so you'll excuse me if I come across as bitter.

I'm sorry to our regular models who always took part in my shoots in a safe environment. Thank you for all your hard work.

To the other members here who have also filmed at the same studio - I wish you all the best as you could be next. After 30 years producing wam, and no better off financially three decades later - doing it for the fun and for the fans - this is a sad way to end, especially through no fault of my own.

Life sucks sometimes, especially when unfair decisions are made.

Very unfortunate, as I've enjoyed Mostwam's content, but if he's doing shit like that, he's not someone I want to give money to anyway. There are other great WAM producers here who don't engage in that shit. You made the right decision shutting him and his buddies out of the UMD. His actions will leave a stain on the community, fair or not, and cutting ties with him is the only appropriate action for anyone that continues business with him, or anyone who knew about this and chose to keep it hidden.

I believe that if we are to be consistent, all connections to Mostwam would have to be severed. If it's possible that he's still involved with activities and content offered here, that likely won't work.


I really appreciate what you've done here, and I hate to do the guilt-by-association thing. But I do not know how the community would trust any other arrangement. I know that this is ending the livelihoods of several people who have no other income. I've lost a piece of myself in this whole ordeal.

__________________________________________________________________________________

This feels slightly uncomfortable in so much as the male side has effectively been a tenant. If it's a different production company and their videographer can be replaced (if everyone concerned felt this was truly necessary?) then it seems very unfair on what is technically a separate business. However, I can appreciate that the feeling towards Leon on this site is such that they would not want him to benefit in any way (even by way of rent) from sales made through this platform.

So it's complicated but it does feel like a 'cut and dried' approach is taking effect here. I'm not saying I have the answer and I'm certainly not denying anyone else's opinion.... but I am just left with this 'uncomfortable' feeling... and I use that word because I can't think of another way to describe it.

After looking around and seeing some of the producers I like with no content anymore...I really am surprised how much was filmed in one studio, literally hundreds of videos gone, I guess what 4 or 5 producers? (May be more)
It's a shame to lose so much quality content on the UMD, though I kind of get the point...

Obviously this is a nasty situation and one that has been handled in a way as to be fair and even handed, I do feel sorry for everyone caught up in this though.

It's a bit of an investment, but all I can suggest is to create your own websites for your content if you were selling exclusively through UMD, I built a site recently and even if you aren't a programmer there are site building tools out there. (I used Wix)

Wishing everyone impacted luck in the future and I hope you are able to still produce your quality content in some way!

I just want to say as the person who took the chance of letting people know about Leon that i had no idea how this would all expand with more and more information being revealed.
I naively thought just the fact there was a conviction and all associated with Mostwam had kept it quiet would automatically lead to them being removed from UMD.
I am guilty of thinking Messmaster hadn't fully grasped the plot and was considering letting them off. I know understand his method of investigation and actually can see it was quite clever to give Leon and Al some rope and letting them hang themselves in full view of the forum. It's also allowed several other girls to come forward or be mentioned.
The sad by product has been some utterly horrendous comments with disrespect towards women, strange theories and even people attacking me as having some sort of vendetta despite only writing facts, all of which have now been proven 100% accurate.
It's also revealed some amazing females on here who have shown great strength in showing how they feel and offering me support in private messages and on the thread. I really hope ALL those girls including Penny can get to a stage with MM where they understand the long game MM played and they continue to be a Tour De Force on UMD.
The long game took 3 days, doesn't seem long in hindsight but it seemed an age during the process. I really want the UMD to kick on from here.
Thanks Creamy/Chantelle/Kelsey/Penny/Candy and MM who I know realise is called Derek.

Last time I looked into it, selling via a UK-based site has become a nightmare thanks to the digital download laws. If anyone has a US-based server that can host I'd be open to the idea.

To the other commentator about where my scenes have been filmed, as I understand it there will be no further opportunities to use the studio space in the future so the connection won't even be an issue.

Need to do some long hard thinking on what the future holds for Wamgame.

This all really fucking sucks.


It's extremely uncomfortable, I agree. But sometimes things call for a clean break. For Leon's colleagues, I have left on the table their possibly staying here if it can be proven that there is no association to MostWam, including billing, studio time, etc. Maybe going as extreme as to cut off all ties is not the right move, but again I'm looking for opinions on where I should draw the line. At this point, I think closure is the ultimate goal.

That seems like a bizarre and concerning decision to me. You have a convicted sex offender whose actions took place within the context of the WAM community. Surely upon learning of this, the first action would be to suspend their posting privileges while you look into the matter, rather than giving them a platform to muddy the situation and make accusations about others?

And thank you for making me/us aware. Your view above is also how I see it

I'd personally expected Leon to get banned, and maybe MostWAM, but the decision to go after people "guilt by association" is very unfortunate. I hope the mob is happy with their pound of flesh and the lives you've destroyed because of this. I made this comment in the nicest possible way, since this thread is a decent thread without the accusations.

I appreciate MM keeping options on the table for me and as I just mentioned to him, it's a given that any future material I produce won't be filmed at the studio. Not sure where or if it will be at this stage. I have much thinking to do on whether this has soured the desire to continue.

But just to reiterate the first I knew about the case (and my sympathies are with the model of course) was when my attention was directed to the original thread this morning.

I would also be willing to have a name change if that helps the community feel more comfortable should I continue to have a presence here.

I am just a bit surprised this regretful matter has only just blown up over the last few days. Details of the court case and conviction were in the public domain via local and regional news outlets in the UK back in March!

True but given the shit show occurring in this country on a daily basis, many of us have been too preoccupied to pay attention to local news and media. It's not like the story hit national headlines (thank god for all of us)

What a complete and utter mess! (literally)

Well the lynch mob got their way and forced messmasters hand.

Just a couple of points.

Leon was never found guilty, he pleaded guilty - completely different thing

The evidence was never tested in court or in front of a jury

There was absolutely NO obligation for Leon to disclose his conviction (unless asked directly)

Therefore Lisa & Al have done nothing wrong and are not guilty of anything

Just to be clear, it never went to a jury BECAUSE he pleaded guilty. I.e. that decision was up to Leon, not the CPS or the person who accused him.

Are you saying that someone who chooses to avoid a jury should be given the benefit of the doubt because they haven't faced a jury?

Or are you saying that the court should ask a jury to decide whether someone is innocent or guilty when that person has already admitted to being guilty? (That would seem like a ludicrous waste of resources, when our court system already has a big backlog of cases waiting to be heard.)

Honestly I think this is a little extreme. I think if wamgame is honest and answers the concerns and questions of the community that can go a long way towards healing and repairing trust if anyone has any issues with them. Guilt by association doesn't seem a logical punishment to me as people can be deceived or never know that a situation was possible.

If the issue is that wamgame invests money in Mostwam and Mostwam gets any profit from it, then could they stay if Leon no longer runs that studio or profits from it? Would finding a new studio space be okay? If they simply became more independent would that help them stay? Is there anyone else in the UK that has studio space they can use? I hate to see someone struggling financially to put food on the table and suffering because of actions they had no control over. I've spent too much time volunteering with homeless shelters and food banks and working with financially vulnerable people to find it justifiable to hurt people this way.

Just a quick pointer here, for everyone including yourself:

Leon and Al, the way they reacted on here and other places (Find the evidence yourself, I will not post here assuming they haven't locked/blocked yourself) speaks volumes just as much as the the unfortunate and, let's be honest, sad events that took place.

So you say a 'mob' got their way. In actuality, (most) respectfully called it out and were not happy. MM eventually, and controversially gave plenty of time before he acted.

That wasn't down to a 'mob'. That wasn't down to MM arguably. It was down Leon, and what he did. It also didn't help how others associated with him reacted, and how it was kept from the admins of a site which is literally all about sexual activity when you strip it back.

I know it sucks, and you may be their fan, but they have two at least subscription sites off of here. If you want to enjoy their content and support them, you technically still can...

I get it. But the discussion has been extremely beneficial to us. The community is still hearing information from the accused AND apparently the a victim firsthand. People can weigh in with their opinions and judge the reactions for themselves. Leon's stores are closed. His account will go. I am in control of this process. Please kindly let me do my job.


I'd have hoped that you'd make every comment in the nicest way, regardless of thread. It's still the same site. But I also do think this is unfortunate. Guilt by association is a pet peeve of mine. But if MostWam is to go, then how could we leave pieces of it here? If someone's shoots are still done in their studio, with their equipment, and with their billing with Leon getting a cut, then where exactly do we draw the line with this expulsion? I've been asking for viewpoints on this, and my mind is open, but so far I haven't gotten any actual ideas of how to approach this in any way other than a blanket ban. It seems almost impossible in most circumstances, but we can't just skip to an answer without some sort of thought process. None of this works by magic.


I think I have a bit more integrity than that. I've listened to everybody, but my decisions are my own. I've gone against a large majority of the community not agreeing with me before. I think I was pretty clear in that it was Leon's hedged explanation plus the lack of coming to us in the first place that eroded my trust with Leon. This is something you really can't come back from.

[Visceral comment deleted -MM] That is not what you hoped. Do you think people will magically forget what you have been saying in many threads because you have chosen to kiss ass in MM's thread????

I recommend you to read the forum thread on the whole topic about this being made public. There's an 11 page debate about this and Mess Master has explained thoroughly his reasons for the decisions he's made. He made a very thoughtful and compassionate response on this. It's unfortunate to see everyone on every side hurting, but this has immediately divided this community into male vs female about the rules of consent. I'm sorry you're only just finding out, but please read that thread. There has been a lot of very aggressive, hateful, destructive, disrespectful arguing over this.