Im sorry this is quite long but please bear with me as its quite a serious point I am trying to make. I want you to think about your favourite WAM producer(s) (nice eh?). Then I want you to imagine they were no longer producing, no more videos, no more photos, no more private sessions. No dont just shudder and out it straight out of mind thinking Itll never happen properly actually think about that for a minute and how it would feel to lose them.

Someone a lot wiser than I coined the phrase You never truly miss something until its gone. Whoever they were they were right. However if this happens with your favourite WAM producers then its too late chances are there wont be any going back. So what am I getting at here? In the UK and I imagine in other places too many local shops and pubs are closing through lack of use, many people complain about this but then when asked if they shop at their local shops or drink in the local pub they dont. It struck me recently that there is a real danger the same could happen with WAM. Im friends with a number of producers some who like me do this for enjoyment and dont really make any profit on what that do. Others are just about scraping a living through WAM. None of us are in danger of becoming rich from our stores or sessions and the general trend at the minute seems to be sales arent that great. WAM is an expensive thing to produce, messy items, cameras, lighting, models, travel, cleaning products, dunk tanks, gunge tanks, buckets they all cost money and have to be paid for somehow. As well as all that a lot of hard work is involved in any scene or session. The facts are plain and simple no matter how much the producer enjoys what they do if they consistently fail to break even on videos or have very few bookings for sessions then with the best will in the world sooner or later they wont be able to continue. If that happens then the world of WAM becomes a bit less colourful and collectively our enjoyment is diminished.

OK so what can we do about this? First off this is not an exercise in self-promotion for me, this is why I have included a few pictures from some of my favourite producers to help promote this thread (hope you dont mind guys). What Im asking is if you see something a producer has done that you quite like the look of then seriously consider buying it. I know a lot of you already do this and a huge thank you to you guys. However its easy to tell by the ratio of post views on the messy forum to number of video sales that many do not. Now I know times are tough for a lot of folks at the minute and Im not asking you do anything you cant afford or pour your entire life savings into WAM videos. Many downloads and site memberships are not expensive, you will get something that hopefully you will enjoy and your money may make the difference between a scene breaking even or not and ultimately over time the survival of that producer. The same applies to sessions if you want a session with someone dont hang around for an age waiting to do it else you might find they have stopped doing them due to lack of interest. Even if you cant afford to part with any cash then there are still things you can do which will help. If you see something on the forums you like then why not reply and say that you like it and why. So often posts where people are bickering over something daft will get many replies yet posts where someone had posted some photos or a video get next to none. If you cant be bothered with this then the UMD gives you a nice lazy way of doing it, if you like something then click the heart by it, simple easy. Not only will the person who produced it know that their efforts are appreciated they will also get a bit more exposure which means they stand a slightly better chance of making sales. It all helps!

Now imagine something even worse, imagine there is no UMD! Horrible I know and with it being the hub that it is for all things wet and messy I think it would probably spell the end for most if not all producers too. Could this happen? Potentially I think so yes. I think the WAM community is just that, its not a series of producers all competing against each other. It is more of an intricately linked economy. If a producer falls by the wayside then any revenue they bring to the UMD in terms of advertising or commission through selling through the UMD store is lost. Drop in the ocean you may say but if it happens to too many producers then the UMD itself could struggle and if it goes it would take pretty much all that remained down with it in my opinion. We are very lucky that Messmaster is so generous taking the time to give us things like the chat room that dont actually benefit the site financially. At the end of the day the UMD costs money to run and that money has to come from somewhere. Sorry if this is all a bit too much doom and gloom for this time of year! However I think its important to consider how each of us can help this community to continue, thrive and be a source of enjoyment for all. Its in your hands, all of you.

Hi, wondering where is the 1st picture from? Thanks....

Maybe the admin can create a "Buy a WAM vid Day" and then promote the hell out of it. And do that again periodically.


Just a thought.

I hope that's so you can go and buy the video or tell Ariel that it looks great. It's from WAMbabes clue was the caption at the top of the photo

I'm by no means asking everyone to download everything of course that ain't practical, just as you are doing if you see something you like get it or say something about it. The more people who do the more likely producers and ultimately the whole UMD will continue


I'm not sure I agree with that, that feels a bit like pushing people to buy stuff which I'm not for. People may not have the money to get a video that particular day. Also it could backfire and if people only bought videos on that day then producers would probably be in a worse situation!

Boom!! You just got served, cheapskates!!

It's certainly true that out of the thousands of hits each thread I post gets, like 40 people buy. If I was sensitive, I'd be pretty butt hurt that 3567 people looked at my previews and say "nah".

Then again, 40 people decided my twisted brain children videos are worth shelling out hard earned cash is pretty awesome. Not exactly making money awesome, but still awesome. It just let's me know that out of 3567 people, 40 of them are absolutely brilliant!


So listen up spoiled free content people. You better start supporting your favorite producers (translation:me) and the umd or the WAM Bubble will pop, and we are not to big to fail! And to those of you who do support us, keep up the good work, you sexy geniuses, you.

Thanks for this post Bob (and for including me in your favourite producer pics!). It's very well put and a pretty accurate reflection of how I feel about producing.

Mr JnC and I put a lot of time, work and cash into our shoots and sessions. We do it for the fun and we aim to break even on our expenses - we're not about to quit our day jobs, as we're realistic about how (un)likely we are to make a living from it; especially as there are two of us doing the work, not just me - and I couldn't do it without him!

I'm not complaining, I get a lot of appreciation for my content and I love hearing how much people like my pics, movies, customs and sessions. It makes it all worthwhile, knowing that people are enjoying watching me, exhibitionist that I am
I've missed it all in the few months I've been away and I'm looking forward to throwing myself back into it - quite literally , but for all the time and work that goes into prepping the mess, setting the scene, filming and editing the footage, we need it to be financially viable, or we might just as well leave the camera in the cupboard and have more private sessions just for ourselves and save a lot of time and effort.

I would like to see more people hitting the 'love' hearts. The ratio of post views to the comments proves how few people are vocal in their appreciation and as Bob says, it's so easy to click on the heart if you like what you see Buying my stuff helps too, obvs :lovestruck:

Anyhoo, that's my HO. Now I'm off to edit some more old movies, to increase the amount of content in my store for y'all to buy

Have a messy new year folks! :splat:

JnC xx

I personally don't reply to vid posts saying that there great etc because it feels a bit daft to me to keep posting that i like peoples videos but i certainly buy a few wam vids a month and i'd like to think that worst case doom and gloom that Mess master gave up and the UMD disappeared (which i think is very unlikely BTW) that there would be someone else like the Mess masters/Bill Shiptons/Rob Blaines of the world that would try something or come up with some kind of forum or community but then i always try to look at the bright side of things

I have over 150,000 views on one of my wetlook preview videos on youtube but the actual video has less than ten sales. There are comments on that video along the lines of "Oh thats so hot! Please make more like this!" as if I am producing content solely for random strangers on youtube. I wont be making more videos like that one because it did so poorly. There does seem to be a large percentage of people out there who don't value or respect what producers and models do for work. I've worked with a number of full time models who complain about fans contacting them, saying how much they love them, and then asking for free videos.

I really appreciate the people who do buy my videos because that is the only way I can afford to keep making them. I enjoy what I do but it is work. I have invested a lot of time and money into my work and I feel that it should be respected as a legitimate business.

I don't think making this post is suddenly going to change anyone's mind or encourage someone who pirates videos to start actually paying for them. I don't think there is any realistic way to get people to stop pirating videos because they justify their actions in their own mind. To them it's not stealing because it's not a tangible object. And for the people who just look at the free stuff and never buy downloads they aren't doing anything wrong. But if watching a 30sec preview video over and over is how you get off then maybe consider spending $5 every now and then to actually support a producer you like. If they quit then they won't be posting any new free content.

I said "nah" because whilst your movies are awesome - especially the superheroine one, there werent any boobies But its down to your models and what your producing.

Loved the forced cake-ing via foot on the back of the head

G

A great post and very well said Bob.
As you know we made the very tough decision earlier this year to give the studio up as it had become too expensive to keep on with lack of sessions and sales. What always amazes us is the amount of people who get in touch for a session then never follow it through. If we had been able to accommodate just 2 sessions a month with the Gunge Tank / Dunk Tank or could have got more producers hiring the studio we could have kept going at the studio and the sessions could have carried on.
Film wise its very difficult, sometimes you can cover costs other times you run at a loss. Im sure most people have no idea of the costs involved with models, gunge and other costs compared to actual video sales.

I wonder what percentage of the UMD member base has actually contributed financially to WAM by buying videos or memberships to sites? Or even how many members that have joined and never so much as posted a single post on the forum? And even then you have to think of the people that don't even register and just visit as guests. For those people having a quick wank over the few free sample pics that most producers are kind enough to supply with new releases is more than enough and they have no intention of ever spending any of their own money to support the fetish.

I myself have been guilty of not contributing much in the last 10 months, mostly as I've spent 6 of those months travelling around South America and the rest having no money because I just spent 6 months travelling around South America! I have in the past been a member of all the major producers websites and bought a handful of one off videos from others. And in the hopefully in the near future I can begin to contribute again. I'd even like to explore the idea of private sessions once I build up the courage for it.

Even if everybody was to buy just one video a month it's only like, what £5? Imagine how much more WAM content we could have if every member of the UMD bought just one clip a month!

Hi bosunbob,

Who is the girl in this picture and from video/producer?

Thanks

I typically spend about $30 a month on produced WAM, whether from download stores or, more predominantly, subscriptions. And I'm almost universally reviled as a grade-A asshole by most people here, so it only stands to reason that the white knights and sycophants who do all the complaining should be spending hundreds...

Hmm, gee, I wonder...

Imagine there's no wamming...it's easy if you try
No slime above us...and worse yet....there's no pie.
Imagine all the wammers,...living for the messing.....

You may say I'm a creamer....but I'm not the only one
Someday I hope you join us....and the wam world will cream as one.


Robby
WAMma Lamma Pie
www.wammalamapie.com

www.shepiestheguy.com

I think about that possibility all the time, bosunbub.
Why do you think I support folks making cultured vegan cheese & eventually hopefully biotech engineered vegan egg products? To eventually bring down the cost of cream & marshmallow pies, so that stick cream pies will be available for wam videos. Of course, I am sure the handful of scientists working on this technology has no idea of UMD or WAM. But, WAM will be an unintended side benefit.

So the topic is a good point but in the end its like anything else on the market. It WILL go through a tough time here and there and it will bounce back. Producers will come and go, stars will rise and fall.. but as long as people have the fetish material will be made. And I think in the end you will always have amateurs like me to provide material.

Now one day UMD will go away when messmaster deems its time... in less he sells it to someone who is interested in taking it over at that time... thats scary because it really is the only of its kind...

The big difference now is models now can shoot material, take customs, and use download stores to cut producers out of the loop. That allows the models to sell their product for less, making it harder for producers, who of course have more overhead. I make it a point to support the producers whose work I appreciate, as they're the ones who are really feeling the squeeze.

And one great way to help out producers while also making yourself happy is to order a custom, if you can afford it. That allows the producer to control his or her costs, while giving you what you want.

Youtube considers all of my non-nude videos to be "too adult" to monetize any of them.

Guilty. I may have posted once or twice though I found the site around late 1998... I'm very private. The numbers have to at least be in the thousands or tends of thousands including those who do not register.

I'm grateful for all of the producers and what I've been able to learn from them. It would be sad to see others join the ones I miss. I've always wondered when things were at their peak, or if that time is now.

Boo fucking hoo. Not everyone is going to buy your shit.
You come off awfully entitled here, maybe that attitude is part of the reason?

At 150k views, using the generally-accepted rate of $0.033/1kviews, you'd net about $450. Not really "revenue," but enough to pay for the supplies and wardrobe.

lots of this thread is laughable!

if people aren't buying your videos then perhaps there's a reason why
if your sales decline then perhaps there's a reason why
if lots of people are viewing the show pages in your umd store but then not buying the video then perhaps there's a reason why
etc etc etc

if producers made something different things rather than doing the same thing again and again then people would be more interested. i've bought videos from various different producers, if the only things to change in each video is the model then well, your new video is pretty much the same as all the others you've made.

i mean, some producers have a wardrobe of clothes that get used for most of their shoots, add a bit of variety in! you've got to spend money to make money, it's not a new concept, if you keep making stuff that's the same as lots of other videos you've made then why would people want to buy something that's very similar to what they've already bought from you?

as to people complaining about the number of views of their youtube videos compared to the number of sales... seriously??! you put videos on youtube and are complaing about the number of people watching the video that you put there presumably for people to watch?

if umd disappear overnight then oh well, its not the only wam forum on the net, it might be the biggest but if umd disappeared then the other forums would grow. isn't that kinda obvious?

if a producer stops making new videos then oh well, it's not as if they're the only producer making videos, i expect we'd all get over the tragic loss of those producers who make stuff that people dont want to buy. if your videos aren't selling then you're kidding yourself if you think you'd be missed

get over yourselves, stop blaming potential customers for not buying your videos and make something that they do want to buy. oh but if there's something you want to buy then you should get a custom made? you can't complain when people aren't buying your videos when people are telling you what they would buy but you want them to pay for a custom video which is far more expensive than buying something from your download store.

if sales aren't doing well then that's a problem the producers need to address rather than complaing at customers that they arent buying enough

go on, post replies telling me how evil I am for not buying your videos, don't bother to think of proactive ways for you to increase your sales, g'wan, blame the customer for not liking what you make.

maybe cos of some of the laughable stuff producers have posted in this thread they should consider a career change from wam producer to writing comedy, you can't make half the stuff in this thread up, some of it is pure gold that's made funnier by the fact it's written seriously rather than as comedy

here ends today lesson in things that are very obvious to those who have half a clue about how to do business!

I am writing as someone who buys a large number of wam videos including customs.

I do think one reason why individual producers' sales are low is the market is absolutely enormous.

If all wam producers went out of business, there would still be 100x more wam available than when I grew up: via amateur 'comedy' clips and clips from tv from every nation on youtube. This takes away a lot of potential customers who in my day were desperate for any kind of wam on a video tape.

Then there are the sheer number of wam content producers and the sheer number of clips they generate. If you sit and work out how many there are it is unbelievable

Nowadays I tend to only buy a clip if it ticks all my boxes, or is discounted so I can't be too disappointed. With so many producers and so many clips, there are plenty of clips that do tick all my boxes, and so I do buy plenty of clips, but there are lots of others that I look like they MIGHT be great but if they don't have a preview and/or the price seems high then I will leave it.

Now I fully understand that the price isn't really high, (in relation to costs) but at the mo there are so many content producers (models (amateur and pro) and producers like wamfan, messygirl etc). So clips I would take a punt on if there were fewer options, get passed over. (one of bosunbobs caught my eye a while back, I remembered this morning, , but there was no preview so I decided to think about it..the next day 15 more new vids are in your face and it gets forgotten)

The other thing is how many clips is too many. I do buy customs now, as I have 100s of very good clips, so unless I see something that happens to be 'excellent' I will save up for a custom instead.

I feel for all the producers, and we probably will lose more (as we have in the past) but the rambling point I am trying to make is that, even for those of us who spend a lot on wam (I spent over $2000 this year), there is just way too much choice to buy everything I would like to.

I have just bought big in the House Of Mess, and Anglefan sales as in both cases I picked up maybe clips at a price that felt no-risk. Once I get my promised Hotwam free clip (there was a technical issue with the first one) I am likely to buy there too . Sales (or promos like Hotwams) are good as it gives you an excuse to check out the sites offerings again, and take a punt on the 'maybes' you have had previously.

It is a tough one, as it is great that people make the clips for the love of it, and it is appreciated by me in a moral sense, but with a limited budget and umpteen clips to choose from, the market will, sadly, decide and some great people, making great clips, will go under as there is too much choice.

All I can do is keep spending on clips that appeal to me, and give feedback to producers who ask for it, as to what I will spend on.

This isn't the first time I've heard people talk about sites not updating, and to my mind that's totally unacceptable.

2015 will be the Saturation Hall website's 10th anniversary. In all that time, we have never missed so much as a single update. A few times we've been a few days late, released on Thursday or Friday instead of Wednesday, and I feel bad enough when that happens, absolutely no freaking way would we ever take membership money from people and fail to update. We may not update as often as some sites, but we keep the schedule we do because I know with cast iron certainty that I can meet that schedule, this month and every month. If it ever started to become a problem to keep it going, we'd stop taking new memberships from people well before we ran out of updates.

We have over five solid years of future messy updates already shot and ready to release, and more than a year of wetlook too, just as insurance against ever being short of models or the opportunity to shoot more scenes - the weather this far up in the Pennines isn't always conducive to wetlook shoots, even in high summer, but when it is we make the most of it, and we've started shooting indoor wetlook scenes too just to be on the safe side - amazing how less shivery people in formal gowns get when you throw warm water over them instead of cold.

But I agree with bosunbob's original post in this thread. If you see something you like, buy it. Don't make the mistake of thinking you can come back later, as all too often, by later it will be gone.

I've kinda been watching the downturn of quality as the forum loses good producers, or good producers slow down. That's not to say it's all bad, just a trend.

And that could just be my taste in some terms, but I rate image quality as well more than others tend to.

I think we are suffering the effects here of the UMD DL store opening and a lot of people jumping in to try and make a few bucks and thinning out the market. It's tiring to swim against a tide like that and see it out, but the fact is the market will by it's nature be ever evolving.

But the point stands, many a time to people wonder where an entity has gone that would still be in place with more support in any community.

On the other hand, people don't always want to do the same thing forever and peoples lives change.



Didn't read much past this, I can't take an opinion from someone that can't use capital letters at the start of any sentences.



Grade A, Level 1 Grand Master Asshole.

It's why I love you.

What is more profitable to the producers - commissioning custom videos, or individual sales for videos they have already produced?

A custom brings in a fixed profit.

Individual sales on a released video will vary, but will sell for a long time.

The second one if the video is good.

However, if a video is commissioned and it's not to "out there" then the producer has no cost and video to sell long term.

Agreed. I made a post the other day with 115 photos in it. That thread has had 1200+ views, but the most hearts any of the pics has got is 6, and the thread itself got just 1. Now I don't expect to get as many views or hearts as the solo female models who do full nude do, and I know some of my stuff is quite niche, but a few more hearts would be nice sometimes. Thread is here if anyone's curious: http://umd.net/forums/free-pics-notice-saturation