Read penny post said you block her and did not wait for them sort it out

I feel I need to reply briefly here.
As one of the team organising it and a long time friend of @naughtyjim, there is no intent to deceive.
I will add I have been on the UMD for over 20 odd years and was at one time the organiser of The London Meet, which I took over from a chap called Phantom, at his request, and then after a few years, Smiley joined me and we became co-organisers.
So, if you were curious, that's my mini-bio.

The issue seems to be the use of the name of the event.
This use of the name ' Messtival ' as explained in the statement, was an oversight.

Without re-iterating the statement in full here, it is clear a mistake was made and admitted to and apologised for.
The reasons how this happened are laid out for everyone to read.
The redactions were due to the private nature of those sections but no doubt included to show this was part of a larger conversation. This is reasonable.

Penny said ' Go for it ' and so in essence the event in and of itself is not the issue, there is an issue with using the name. There is no deceit
This has been addressed in the statement.
Deceit implies a deliberate act to pull the wool over someone's eyes. This is not what happened.
The same applies when the word ' lied ' is used.

If I thought this was a dubious event I would not be part of it and I would not have contributed financially towards it.
As stated, this is a non-profit event.

There will be a new name, shortly, and we will go forward from there.
No lies, no deceit and an acknowledgement there was a mis-step.
I am sure @naughtyjim will make his own reply to the above posts but I thought it timely to reply to everyone at the first opportunity.

sincerely,

easy_as_

The bigger issue here is that Jim has tried to pass off his thrown-together event as Messtival and is trading off the name of the event that is known and has been used previously. The event has a reputation and it is highly likely that fewer members of the community would have signed up for this event if Jim had not called it "Messtival"

Regardless of whether it was confusion, delusion or sheer manipulation this is not OK. Jim has not hosted an event like this before. He has traded on the back of a popular event which has been previously held and been very successful. He has lied to the community about the background of the event. He has manipulated the host of the event by fabricating a backstory about having approval.
IF this event is to go forward it needs new management and new ownership. Simply renaming the event will not keep our community safe.

It would probably also be a good idea to unblock her, Jim; that's really not a good look.

You say the community's safety is in danger. Could you expand upon wht you mean by that ?
I am unsure what you mean ?

Penny did not say "go for it" and permission was never sought to use the Messtival name and trade off Penny's former success and goodwill. He has openly admitted to Penny after the fact that he thought she was off the scene and living her own life.

Jim is trying to dig himself out of a hole that he has created. His timing is wrong. His recollection is wrong. His branding is breaching IP law. You are also guilty by association.

Jim has no history of hosting such an event. Jim is not a producer and merely just another member of the community. Whilst there is no rule against community events ran by the community for the community, this event would not have gained the popularity and traction that it has if he had created it under a new brand.

Of course - a group of unknown, unproven members of the community are offering a free event which has been hyped up through lies, deceit and manipulation. Not to mention breaching IP laws in the process.
Are we really supposed to believe that you, Jim and co are doing this to "give back to the community" and not get closer to models and other community members that you otherwise might not be able to meet/get close to?!

Since you believe safety has been fully covered and shouldn't be a concern, perhaps you can answer these basic questions:
- How do you intend to keep members safe whilst at the event?
- What vetting have you done on attendees to ensure they aren't a risk to those attending?
- What processes and procedures have you put in place for people reporting issues at the event and how will you resolve them?
- What risk assessments have you performed for the event?
- What insurance cover do you have in place for those attending?

On this and previous occasions, I've always felt the whole thing could be done online. Just announce the results in front of a webcam, and post little trophies or badges to the winners.

No need for anyone to be meeting up and getting covered in mess. Not everything in life has to end up with people pouring custard and gunge.

Penny replied in the screenshot of the conversation
' yeah go for it ' to the idea of the event format, given the similarities of the idea.
It is the idea that she was okay with.

I didn't say she agreed to the use of the name of the event.

Once again, you/Jim are trying to defend your position rather than holding your hands up, apologising and stepping down to let someone else own and run the event under an appropriate brand. Even Jim's apology was more a call for sympathy and I don't actually recall seeing anywhere him apologise properly to the community and take responsibility for his deliberate actions to mislead everyone

Okay, I will have one more reply and then leave the stage.

I have no 'pro Jim' stake in this. I have always got on very well with Penny and I don't know Jim from Adam..

(I know he has been here for many many years without incident, but I haven't met him and chatted with him as I have with Penny, who has always been lovely to me).

I am not sure why we always have to immediately assign the very worst of motives to people. It is possible for someone to want to do a nice thing for the community, and that that is the real and only reason. The Splosh Games were done for just that reason. The Moomin Games too.

It is possible for someone to just make a mistake (memory *is* constructed, so it is by no means unrealistic that Jim's memory of what was agreed is different to what was on the email).

I am also not sure why Jim would do this to try and 'get closer to other members of the community and to benefit the few not the many'. Respectfully (and I do mean it respectfully, as you and I have always got on) I don't even understand that assertion. The event is free...it is literally for the many. Also who would Jim want to get close to and why? Maybe I am naive but I am not following it.

I don't think it's necessary to think we have been lied to and deceived, just that someone made a substantive mistake. Again, how stupid would Jim have to be to do this deliberately? It was inevitable that Penny would hear of the event. Surely it is much more likely that his assertion, that he misremembered the specifics, and only recalled that Penny was happy for him to host an event, is the more plausible.

Do we really think no-one would attend a free awards and sploshing event called something else? The Splosh Games were a big success, as was The Moomins' event. They weren't called Messtival. Jim could have done that and saved himself a shed load of trouble.

IF (and I know it's an if at this stage), Jim and Penny can work things out and reach agreement, why do we always have to pile in? If I was Jim and my motives were good, I would be on the floor at this point.

I acknowledge it's possible that for reasons I can't make any logical sense of, Jim has some evil masterplan going on to lie and deceive and stage a free event and.... But based on everything, it just seems to me to be far more likely to be a human being who made a mistake. No-one died and he and those who actually were affected by the mistake are still trying to resolve it. I don't seek to negate the impact on them...but they are talking with Jim, and the rest of us are really not directly affected) I just feel we should give the benefit of the doubt, at the very least until Jim and Penny and her team finish their conversations.

I do acknowledge that for those of us with tickets and travel etc , it is a concerning time, but I also think the quickest way to end up with no event, is to engage in a pile-on before we know the facts.

These things always make me very sad, so I will step aside now and leave the floor to everyone else

I think the big difference here is that both events you mention were ran/organised by existing producers who were known to the community and were also held under their own brand, not trading off another brand/event name?

This is so silly. It's not the worst thing in the world, but it would be understandable if it made people less inclined to trust the organisers.

To your point about producers.
Producers are not always guaranteed to be 100% safe.
I am sure I don't have to mention the producer that left the community recently due to boundaries being crossed with a model.

That said, if you feel I am defending rtather than explaining things then I can do no more than I have.

I think the big difference here is that both events you mention were ran/organised by existing producers who were known to the community and were also held under their own brand, not trading off another brand/event name?


If there was any question/doubt in Jim's mind surely all he needed to do was review the text messages he exchanged with Penny and/or ask again and clarify? Not just launch the event based on a hazy recollection? We aren't talking about a recollection of a phone call or conversation, we are talking about a recollection of a text message which both parties to this day still have access to.


I think if it had been organised by a large producer such as yourself/Bri etc - 100% yes it would be popular (part of the reason people trusted the Messtival brand was surely because Penny (and team) organised it. The same with the Splosh Games/Moomin games - both also held by known producers.


As I have stated already - I hope the event can go ahead, however community safety is paramount for all those due to attend. I don't think there is a need for the event to be cancelled, however I feel Jim and co should step aside and let someone else manage and run it given the situation.

I'm not suggesting that ALL producers are safe, however generally speaking, producers who work with a number of models and hold a positive reputation would be considered "safe". Yes there are a few bad eggs that have arisen over the years but they are few and far between and I could count on one hand. The same cannot be said for other members of the community.

You could answer the specific questions I asked already regarding safety of those attending? Unless you don't know the answers - which if you don't reinforces my belief that you should not be running the event.

Also, let's not take these awards too seriously. Most people will be voting in categories where they don't know some/all of the nominated people/videos. I'm sure that's the case for large mainstream awards ceremonies too, but with a voter base as small as ours, it's going to skew the results to some extent.

Was it Rev who didn't win anything last time? Patently ludicrous even just on the basis of the sheer quantity of work he churns out.

None of this is worth fighting over.

No, while you didn't say all producers were safe, it was an inference that could be drawn. Or at the very least they were less likely to be a problem.
Citing numbers as opposed to percentages is a false comparison, but it is not worth arguing over.
The point was that one of the events you referenced was held by that producer.

As for the specific questions you raised, they will be addressed in due course.
I hope that you can take this post with the goodwill that is intended.

There is no animosity from me here. I hope we can work together on this thread in a constructive and supportive way for the benfit of the community.
That way good things can happen, after all, that is what matters.

Generally speaking producers know, understand and respect professional boundaries. As we are all aware, some overstep that mark. As for mentioning one of those events - Rev was actually the one to bring those up. I also believe that the incident with that producer was an isolated incident at a shoot and not with community members at the event. Producers also often work with one another and have existing connections which can be drawn upon for support/advice

I genuinely want the event to go ahead, however I want it to be held with the honesty and transparency that the community deserve and by people who are more au fait with running such events and all of the safety considerations required

Agree more with this . Feel like rush job and not thinking about safety and even getting messy at the event .


When ask about that Jim replay with tent with shower my mouth drop.

I what event go ahead as well but not thought about drop out for community. Find other people run it

Hope you bring that same energy when I open a store called GungeTankBabes
(it'll be free btw, just for community enjoyment)

How do you make the leap from lying to the community to the safety of the attendees being a risk? You can be 100% honest with people and still overstep boundaries. To my knowledge with this Jim has not claimed to be someone he is not or typed for someone not him. Jim has not taken a bunch of money from the community and then ran. Jim has not assaulted a model and been convicted. Yet Jim is being drug like he had done any of those things.

Yes, Jim should have written down in his notes what he had told Penny about running a similar event and not using the name. He should have started using a different term to describe it etc.

I did not know that the title Messtival had been copywritten.

I really don't see the difficulty with the leap from dishonesty and false pretence behind the event and attendees being at risk. If the organisers have already lied to us and are refusing to accept responsibility for their actions or be transparent with us then who is to say what their intentions are at the event or what other deceptions there have been/will be.

It is interesting that all of the examples you mention are of people in the community misleading and manipulating users for their own benefit yet you defend Jim doing so and claim he has done nothing wrong?

Whilst the Messtival title has not been copyrighted to my knowledge, Jim has seemingly used this to his advantage. It would be no different than you using the SPLAT name/branding to host an event - another non-copyrighted event which has happened recently in the Uk.

I doubt an unknown event held by a group of unknown people would have got anywhere near as much of a crowd as a known event and/or known organiser. Put simply, whether Jim admits it or not, Jim has attempted to use the Messtival name to attract more people and add "credibility" to his event. He is NOT a producer, to my knowledge he has NOT held an event like this before. We therefore have nothing more than his word that this event is going to be what he says it is and based on recent events I think we can all agree that his word means nothing anymore.

I doubt you even have a real concern for the safety of anyone. This thread was going for a month before you voiced any concern over the safety of people. A bunch of "unknown people" holding an event is the same thing as any group of people getting together from an online space. Just because you talk to people online, does not mean you know them as the Chantelle and Jessie situations proved. I am not saying throw caution to the wind and not be aware of situations. Unfortunately, you always have to have a little bit of a guard up and an awareness of your surroundings, now more than ever.

If there is no copyright involved than your IP law breaking claims are bullshit.

Calling an event the same name as another event is hardly the level of scamming as what we have seen here. Let's put some context to things. The folks that run the San Diego Comic Con have sued other conventions for using the name "Comic Con" in their convention titles. They have won that suit and people have held their conventions with other names. Had people been charged money to attend this and Jim refused to refund anyone I would be in the same camp about him scamming someone as you are. I would not be calling him a rapist or eluding that the safety of those in attendance should be a concern any more than going to a concert or any other fetish event. That is really where I have the issue.

I did not defend what he did. I said 100% he should not have used the Messtival name. If you read all of my reply you would have caught that fact. Lying about the name of something does not in any logical world equate to pre-meditated assault which is what you are claiming. Yes it looks bad 100%, Jim blocking Penny does not help matters and looks worse for Jim. Penny trying to resolve this behind the scenes so the event can still happen is a great way to handle this. You could take some inspiration from that.

Had this event been held under a different name by the same people and those same people saying they have Penny's blessing to run the event, which they do, would you have the same safety concerns?

Damn i wish i saw this sooner! I think its too late for me to work out the logistics etc
It sounds awesome though! I love cinema
Will you ever do more in future? Maybe you will know after seeing how smooth it runs the first time

I think the fact that you choose to attack someone who is standing up for the community and holding people to account shows your true colours. Not only is this provocative, but it shows that you are as bad as all of those who are supporting Jim.

I have openly been advising people not to attend this event for weeks. The fact I have chosen to do this in private rather than publicly was a personal choice.

Clearly your knowledge of IP law is not up to date and your google law degree has provided you insufficient detail to accurately state your case.

I am not suggesting that Jim or any of the other organisers are pre-meditating assault, nor have I implied this. What I have stated is that for someone who claims to run a number of kink and fetish events, Jim has abused the trust of the community, leveraged an event name which he had no permission to use for his own gain (non-financial gain but still his gain).

I suggest that you read Penny's tweets on this matter which clarify a significant amount more than Jim has in his sympathy statement.

My questions to the organisers about the safety of the event would remain the same regardless of whether this was held as a new event with or without Penny's approval. I would encourage the organisers to provide the response to these - particularly given there are no shower/changing facilities at the venue and they intend to have guests getting messy.

Lying about the name and approval of an event sets the tone for the rest of the communications and dealings. Trust has been broken and I cannot see a way for this to be rebuilt in the next 2 weeks.

I have openly said I hope that an event can still be held for the community. However that event should be owned and managed by someone who is competent and transparent with the community and can be trusted. My suggestion is that Jim and co should hand over the reigns to another team (possibly lead by Bri since she is already confirmed as host) and disassociate themselves from the event altogether. The event can then be held under a new name. This is of course assuming that the relevant safeguards are in place for those attending/can be properly put in place by that new team

I am interested what other concerns did you have before this naming issue came to light.

First of all, obviously the name should be changed and any branding used should be changed, just to be clear... not defending the use of that at all.

But I'm a little torn, because on one hand Jim is funding this himself and was a great support during the horrific explosion of what happened with m*stwam. Jim honestly seems to me to be one of lifes good guys who 'gets it' (apart from this potential incident)

ON the other hand.... Penny is fucking incredible and she worked tirelessly on the messtival branding and the events that followed. She was here at custard towers perfecting the font and colours alone for hours and hours, forgetting to eat, with a passion and dedication rarely seen on this planet. I adore her. She and her friends/team all worked insanely hard on the physical events too to the point of absolute exhaustion.

On (another!) another hand, someone here once made their profile name Candygirls, which is the name of my main store. I asked them to change it, they didn't think it was a problem and were a bit annoyed at me. I tried to explain that folk may find it confusing (I found it confusing seeing the name in the forum anyway but maybe I was projecting lol) and in the end MM stepped in and got them to change it.

A photo of mine was used without permission on television once and a video from my YouTube channel appeared in an article of an online UK newspaper without my permission. It absolutely sucks to get blindsided with stuff like that.

I don't know what I'm saying here really apart from the name should be changed and I'm shocked that Jim has made this mistake and I really hope I don't have to be disappointed and let down by another wam community person who I thought was solid, great and 'got it'

I also hope there is a way for the event to go ahead under a different name and I feel for anyone currently worried about tickets, travel and accommodation bookings etc. Crossing everything x

Am I missing something here?

Guy spends £1k of his own money on a free event, messes up the name and gets hung drawn and quartered on the forums?

Unless there's some information missing here it seems like a few of you need to remove your tinfoil hats and calm down a little.

You are missing the fact that the guy organising the event has manufactured consent, used branding he had explicitly said he would not use (the not using Messtival branding were his words not Penny's), has no experience of running an event of this nature/scale and has done nothing to reassure the community of their safety at the event.

Combine this with the fact that the venue is unsuitable for the event he is proposing (no showers or changing facilities for a messy event) and his "apology" was more of an attempt to explain why he did it rather than owning his mistake and proposing a suitable solution and it shows exactly why he and his friends are not fit to hold such an event and only have their own egos/interests at heart.

To be clear - I hope that a community event can still go ahead on this date as cancelling the event will hurt more than just those organising it. I just do not believe this should have any connection to Jim and co for the reasons cited above and in my previous posts. Anybody involved in the kink scene who manufactures consent and then tries to manipulate messages and the situation like this has no place running these kind of events.