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"The Sploshcars 2024 (28th September 13:00-15:30 Whitechapel, London UK)"
Love you, tooSaturation Hall, Langstonedale
Lord of the Pies
PhilVeryMessy said: Still going ahead, based on what I've just seen on fetlife. Wonder how many will still rock up for it.
There's an FL event for it. Most recent update seems to have been 8th September though? Is there something more recent somewhere? https://fetlife.com/events/1578715/discussions (think you need to be an FL member to see anything on the site, as privacy protection)
Saturation Hall - Forth! The Gungemaidens!
PhilVeryMessy said: Still going ahead, based on what I've just seen on fetlife. Wonder how many will still rock up for it.
I can't see any update on fet - although the event listing is now misleading and out of date
My bad... I saw 19/08 and mistook that for today, the year is going too quickly 
Carry on...
Carry on...
MessyBratz said:
Says the one harping on endlessly with variations of the same
If you genuinely believe that Penny's reaction to Jim trying to steal one of Penny's businesses is an overreaction then I think you should find out from the original Messtival organisers just how much work, time, blood, sweat, tears and effort went into it and make the same assessment again. Penny said yes to Jim holding a messy awards ceremony- not him taking the entire business and brand from her.
Pasta said:
I have no horse in this race.
Jim would not be at the top of my list of individuals to organise a drinking competition in a brewery, and Penny would not occupy a similar position in my list of people who are seemingly not prone to overreacting to things.
However, that doesn't mean I won't comment when I see someone harping on endlessly with variations on the same theme.
MessyBratz said:
Well since you believe that my posts have been "repetitive with aggressive diatribes" when all I have been doing is challenging Jim to provide an appropriate response to safety concerns and highlighted a lack of informed consent (further backed up by various nominees and nominators withdrawing their support citing this very reason) I thought that was implied?
Pasta said:
Where did I say any of that?
MessyBratz said:
If you believe that manufactured consent from the organiser of a fetish event is ok and should be overlooked and then not held to account or questioned on the safety of this community then I think you should revisit the concept of informed consent yourself. Informed consent is vital in any link space and has been at the heart of most of the various issues that have arisen on here through the years.
Pasta said: I don't think I'm the one getting hung up on anything. My small number of concise, considered contributions to this thread are in stark contrast to your seemingly endless repetitive and aggressive diatribes.
If you believe that manufactured consent from the organiser of a fetish event is ok and should be overlooked and then not held to account or questioned on the safety of this community then I think you should revisit the concept of informed consent yourself. Informed consent is vital in any link space and has been at the heart of most of the various issues that have arisen on here through the years.
Where did I say any of that?
Well since you believe that my posts have been "repetitive with aggressive diatribes" when all I have been doing is challenging Jim to provide an appropriate response to safety concerns and highlighted a lack of informed consent (further backed up by various nominees and nominators withdrawing their support citing this very reason) I thought that was implied?
I have no horse in this race.
Jim would not be at the top of my list of individuals to organise a drinking competition in a brewery, and Penny would not occupy a similar position in my list of people who are seemingly not prone to overreacting to things.
However, that doesn't mean I won't comment when I see someone harping on endlessly with variations on the same theme.
Says the one harping on endlessly with variations of the same
If you genuinely believe that Penny's reaction to Jim trying to steal one of Penny's businesses is an overreaction then I think you should find out from the original Messtival organisers just how much work, time, blood, sweat, tears and effort went into it and make the same assessment again. Penny said yes to Jim holding a messy awards ceremony- not him taking the entire business and brand from her.
The original Messtivals seem to be church educational events for chIldren in the UK and America.
https://umd.net/forums/names-that-cannot-be-used-for-events
From my end this been up and down road. Do feel bad for people running this event . But when easy mistake happen it happens .
I start feeling wrong when ask people get messy at event and found out going make shift tent. [ oh my ]
Going on pass few year be with darla and see online . Need shower and other safer stuff. Did fall over in bath few year ago .
Feel bad person run other event but not at scale or this big
Going forward love help put event for all as love meet people from messy world.
Yes do think messy at event but done right way
I start feeling wrong when ask people get messy at event and found out going make shift tent. [ oh my ]
Going on pass few year be with darla and see online . Need shower and other safer stuff. Did fall over in bath few year ago .
Feel bad person run other event but not at scale or this big
Going forward love help put event for all as love meet people from messy world.
Yes do think messy at event but done right way
Yes do think messy at event but done right way
over my (ahem) many years - I think like most people here I've had thoughts like "oh, it'd be great for an event with mess" and - like, massive hats off to those who've done them - cos - like they're a logistical nightmare
Like, depending on the volume of mess - you need
(a) means to clean up anyone who gets messy : and means for them to get changed
(b) means to clean up the venue - especially as most/all are gonna want you out quickly after your booking - and there needs to be volunteers and a plan in place
but then there's also how mess will be administered, like, if we're talking a bit foam on a paper plate that's relatively easy
but anything sloppy in buckets, gunge tanks, dunk tanks - they need to be borrowed/hired/transported/assembled - and tested for safety
then there's the old insurance nightmare because most venues are not going to have insurance that covers messy play cos it's outside the normal function of venues. And while some stuff has little that can go that wrong; anyone who slips on mess is a claim. And while of course, someone from the splosh community might not themselves put in a claim if they slip on something which should have been cleaned, break a bone and miss work... stuff like... venue staff or people coming in for later use of the venue WILL
then add in any potential damage to venues gear
and of course as I say the safety of any items coming in cos if something causes damage or an accident - again, expensive claims
and so much here is a nightmare and it asks the ultimate question on why there's not more messy events - cos I'm sure over the years there've been people started on good intentions and then, alas, if they've done due diligence hit the stumbling blocks
MIIIIIND
For all we know all the above could have been sorted? Jim has gone very quiet since folk asked the questions and maybe he's been too busy to reply or in the process of sorting.
Welp... another chapter of disappointing wama drama that leaves my trust issues tingling and reminds me why I've been keeping on the outskirts of this website lately.
Thank you to whomever nominated me for BBW entertainer and best trailer - it was a surprise that meant quite a deal to me, but if for some reason this event continues - I am withdrawing from these award categories and want no part in this deception.
Thank you to whomever nominated me for BBW entertainer and best trailer - it was a surprise that meant quite a deal to me, but if for some reason this event continues - I am withdrawing from these award categories and want no part in this deception.
slipperyskin said:
Indeed. One of our key concerns as founders/organisers of Messtival is the fact that we DO, in fact, have a blacklist - people who have been banned from attending any future event due to unacceptable behaviour at previous events (including bans for physical confrontation and stalking).
In our very first official reply to Jim we made him aware of the existence of our blacklist, as an example of one of the many ways in which his hijacking of our event without any communication or cooperation puts everyone at risk. At this point we are still yet to receive ANY reply at all to this, let alone a conversation around the measures we have put in place at our events to keep hosts, participants and attendees safe. Hence why the safety concerns persistently hammered home by the likes of MessyBratz on this thread have been absolutely justified, in our eyes.
In such a small community, it is very achievable and important to employ vetting procedures. Transparent cooperation allows for this.
What occured in this instance leaves the door wide open for known bad actors to regain access to sensitive spaces, and potentially further access to people they have previously targeted.
flank said: It's a pity the way this has all turned out. I'd put this event in my calendar as a possibility, but there's no way I'll be attending now.
Picking up on a few specific points from the discussion:
Back on page 2:
So, that's 3 minutes for the trailers rather than 4m 30s, but it's still a tight schedule!
I didn't attend the Messtival events in 2019 or 2022, but I was looking through the old forum posts about them. In particular, looking at the announcement from 2019:
https://umd.net/groups/i/welcome-to-messtival
The doors opened at 12 noon, ready for the event to start at 12:30. That's a sensible approach, but Jim's event just says "13:00-15:30". If that's when the doors open, there will be less time for the awards by the time everyone's come in and sat down.
In terms of mess, I think the obvious approach is either "don't do it at all" or "keep it minimal" (e.g. a shaving foam pie that can be wiped off with a paper towel). Going for buckets of gunge without a shower seems like a bad idea! At the same time, the organisers also need to manage expectations, i.e. if people are turning up because they're expecting to see someone covered in mess from head to toe, they might be disappointed by a small blob of foam.
From a personal point of view, I'm happy to get messy if I'm wearing jeans and T-shirt. I'm also happy to get dressed up in a suit or dinner jacket. However, I wouldn't want to get messy in my formal clothes.
Those are interesting questions (and I don't know what the answers are or should be). I know that there are other people who hire cinemas for film festivals (e.g. "cult vampire movies of the 1970s"), and I wouldn't expect them to do any particular vetting of attendees, but it would still make sense for them to do a risk assessment (e.g. making sure that there's a first aider somewhere in the building).
There's a spectrum between "people sit down watching films" and "people pour gunge over each other". When does vetting become necessary?
Also, similar to firewalls, there's a choice of "default deny" (i.e. block everyone unless you specifically trust them) or "default allow" (i.e. let everyone in unless you know they're dodgy). If I wanted to become a producer, and I was hiring models to come to my house, I'd expect them to ask for references (i.e. default deny). In a case like this, maybe default allow is safe enough. Even then, there are still GDPR questions, i.e. who gets to see the real names for all the attendees?
Picking up on a few specific points from the discussion:
eyemblacksheep said: Like, 27 categories in 2 1/2 hours is 6 mins per category, and if you're showing 90 second trailers of 3 finalists in each category that is 4 1/2 minutes which gives just 90 seconds to announce the category, announce the winner and have the acceptance speech.
Back on page 2:
naughtyjim said: Nominees can be from anywhere as long as I can get contact with them (because, if they're in the 'final 3', then I need a sub-1 min 'highlights reel' for the clip; and them to be able to do an acceptance speech (preferably in-person but obvs a pre-recorded if they're not in the UI). More on that to follow...
So, that's 3 minutes for the trailers rather than 4m 30s, but it's still a tight schedule!
I didn't attend the Messtival events in 2019 or 2022, but I was looking through the old forum posts about them. In particular, looking at the announcement from 2019:
https://umd.net/groups/i/welcome-to-messtival
The doors opened at 12 noon, ready for the event to start at 12:30. That's a sensible approach, but Jim's event just says "13:00-15:30". If that's when the doors open, there will be less time for the awards by the time everyone's come in and sat down.
In terms of mess, I think the obvious approach is either "don't do it at all" or "keep it minimal" (e.g. a shaving foam pie that can be wiped off with a paper towel). Going for buckets of gunge without a shower seems like a bad idea! At the same time, the organisers also need to manage expectations, i.e. if people are turning up because they're expecting to see someone covered in mess from head to toe, they might be disappointed by a small blob of foam.
From a personal point of view, I'm happy to get messy if I'm wearing jeans and T-shirt. I'm also happy to get dressed up in a suit or dinner jacket. However, I wouldn't want to get messy in my formal clothes.
MessyBratz said:
It might also be useful to include answers to these questions in the update (which I assume will be posted here and sent out on various platforms including mass e-mails to attendees):
- How do you intend to keep members safe whilst at the event?
- What vetting have you done on attendees to ensure they aren't a risk to those attending?
- What processes and procedures have you put in place for people reporting issues at the event and how will you resolve them?
- What risk assessments have you performed for the event?
- What insurance cover do you have in place for those attending?
It might also be useful to include answers to these questions in the update (which I assume will be posted here and sent out on various platforms including mass e-mails to attendees):
- How do you intend to keep members safe whilst at the event?
- What vetting have you done on attendees to ensure they aren't a risk to those attending?
- What processes and procedures have you put in place for people reporting issues at the event and how will you resolve them?
- What risk assessments have you performed for the event?
- What insurance cover do you have in place for those attending?
Those are interesting questions (and I don't know what the answers are or should be). I know that there are other people who hire cinemas for film festivals (e.g. "cult vampire movies of the 1970s"), and I wouldn't expect them to do any particular vetting of attendees, but it would still make sense for them to do a risk assessment (e.g. making sure that there's a first aider somewhere in the building).
There's a spectrum between "people sit down watching films" and "people pour gunge over each other". When does vetting become necessary?
Also, similar to firewalls, there's a choice of "default deny" (i.e. block everyone unless you specifically trust them) or "default allow" (i.e. let everyone in unless you know they're dodgy). If I wanted to become a producer, and I was hiring models to come to my house, I'd expect them to ask for references (i.e. default deny). In a case like this, maybe default allow is safe enough. Even then, there are still GDPR questions, i.e. who gets to see the real names for all the attendees?
Indeed. One of our key concerns as founders/organisers of Messtival is the fact that we DO, in fact, have a blacklist - people who have been banned from attending any future event due to unacceptable behaviour at previous events (including bans for physical confrontation and stalking).
In our very first official reply to Jim we made him aware of the existence of our blacklist, as an example of one of the many ways in which his hijacking of our event without any communication or cooperation puts everyone at risk. At this point we are still yet to receive ANY reply at all to this, let alone a conversation around the measures we have put in place at our events to keep hosts, participants and attendees safe. Hence why the safety concerns persistently hammered home by the likes of MessyBratz on this thread have been absolutely justified, in our eyes.
In such a small community, it is very achievable and important to employ vetting procedures. Transparent cooperation allows for this.
What occured in this instance leaves the door wide open for known bad actors to regain access to sensitive spaces, and potentially further access to people they have previously targeted.
Well reading this should surely put everybody off from going or being involved.
So many hidden dangers in this world but as per usual the truth comes out.
Well done to you and Penny anyway for your previous events and for defending your brand now.
9/22/24, 2:51am: [Admin] quote re-ordered. When quoting previous posts, please add new text *below* the quote, not above. This is so that if anyone else then quotes your post, it all still reads in the correct order from top to bottom.
just seen this, is the event still on?
booked a ticket
booked a ticket
messylaura said: just seen this, is the event still on?
booked a ticket
booked a ticket
this feels like one of life's mysteries. there's been no comms from the organiser in the past week, and it's 3 days to go
however an post-event-drinks has just been announced. I think some comms for folk who are left in limbo, or still might have thought about going might be nice.
Email share it as not going
Hey everyone! Just 3 days to go!!
Firstly, we wanted to say thank you for your interest in this event and we look forward to seeing as many of you as we can on Saturday!!
We wanted to be clear that despite setbacks, the event is still going ahead. We are really looking forward to it. There is also an afterparty in the pub (4pm in The Half Moon) which is just down the road - out the door; turn left; 5 minutes walk!
Honestly, this has been a rollercoaster of a ride and tough in places. A mistake was made by us and we held our hands up, apologised and made what we believe are fair amends, given the circumstances. With all that said and done, we personally think the community needs an event.
It was tempting to cancel this event given all that has happened but ultimately this community depends on events to continue and to grow. It's easy to suggest that somebody does X or Y but no one person or way is 'the correct way'. As organisers we are human and we do the best we can and communities need *someone* and *some people* to stand up and make things happen. We choose to accept the reality that people will have conflicting opinions to ours on how events are run over the risk that nobody steps up to run events at all.
We want to support the community and soldiered on because of:
All the effort the community put and are continuing to put into the nominations and voting
All the new people who are just turning up and want to experience this scene for the first time
All the producers who have put in effort to give us our films over the previous few years and who deserve recognition (especially some of those who are retiring)
All the old hands who are coming from near and far, looking forward to seeing old friends again
That's why we want to see this through to a successful conclusion.
So, the results have been counted; the winners are being contacted and are preparing their speeches, and, we're all getting ready for Saturday! (There are some secret surprises in there too that we're keeping under our hats!)
Before you attend, we would ask you to read our event rules which are pretty standard and just keep everyone on the same page.
As you are aware this is a free event, intended as an overdue gift to this community with which I have shared so many great experiences. It is not Messtival and as a self-funded event this will be less of a paid service and more a chance for us to get together, unwind and celebrate an amazing year. If this isn't your cup of tea, that's OK. If seeing our favourite films and producers getting rewarded and a chance to potentially get messy is what you're in the mood for, we look forward to seeing you!
---
As mentioned previously, we need stooges, too. IF you wish to be one we need you to:
Confirm by email that you wish to be a stooge
Turn up to the venue a little earlier (1230) as we'll need you 'seated' when doors open
You'll need to bring some clothes to get messy in (T-shirt and shorts/trunks would be ideal) and your own bag to put them in. (We will provide heavy-duty bin bags for you to dump them in when you're getting changed. We're also going to provide you with new trainer liners as your footwear whilst on stage)
You'll also need a towel (and any other showering accoutrement you need)
You will also obviously need a change of clothes (and a spare pair of socks, too)
We have a need for around 6 stooges (plus 4 standbys) and they will all get something out of it. Selection is on a first-come-first-served basis on the day.
In terms of clean-up, we have a cleaning station with 2 camping showers and an expected turnaround of about 8 mins per stooge. We have tested this personally and it is doable (tried and tested)
Right!!! That's it! Really looking forward to seeing you all on Saturday!
Hey everyone! Just 3 days to go!!
Firstly, we wanted to say thank you for your interest in this event and we look forward to seeing as many of you as we can on Saturday!!
We wanted to be clear that despite setbacks, the event is still going ahead. We are really looking forward to it. There is also an afterparty in the pub (4pm in The Half Moon) which is just down the road - out the door; turn left; 5 minutes walk!
Honestly, this has been a rollercoaster of a ride and tough in places. A mistake was made by us and we held our hands up, apologised and made what we believe are fair amends, given the circumstances. With all that said and done, we personally think the community needs an event.
It was tempting to cancel this event given all that has happened but ultimately this community depends on events to continue and to grow. It's easy to suggest that somebody does X or Y but no one person or way is 'the correct way'. As organisers we are human and we do the best we can and communities need *someone* and *some people* to stand up and make things happen. We choose to accept the reality that people will have conflicting opinions to ours on how events are run over the risk that nobody steps up to run events at all.
We want to support the community and soldiered on because of:
All the effort the community put and are continuing to put into the nominations and voting
All the new people who are just turning up and want to experience this scene for the first time
All the producers who have put in effort to give us our films over the previous few years and who deserve recognition (especially some of those who are retiring)
All the old hands who are coming from near and far, looking forward to seeing old friends again
That's why we want to see this through to a successful conclusion.
So, the results have been counted; the winners are being contacted and are preparing their speeches, and, we're all getting ready for Saturday! (There are some secret surprises in there too that we're keeping under our hats!)
Before you attend, we would ask you to read our event rules which are pretty standard and just keep everyone on the same page.
As you are aware this is a free event, intended as an overdue gift to this community with which I have shared so many great experiences. It is not Messtival and as a self-funded event this will be less of a paid service and more a chance for us to get together, unwind and celebrate an amazing year. If this isn't your cup of tea, that's OK. If seeing our favourite films and producers getting rewarded and a chance to potentially get messy is what you're in the mood for, we look forward to seeing you!
---
As mentioned previously, we need stooges, too. IF you wish to be one we need you to:
Confirm by email that you wish to be a stooge
Turn up to the venue a little earlier (1230) as we'll need you 'seated' when doors open
You'll need to bring some clothes to get messy in (T-shirt and shorts/trunks would be ideal) and your own bag to put them in. (We will provide heavy-duty bin bags for you to dump them in when you're getting changed. We're also going to provide you with new trainer liners as your footwear whilst on stage)
You'll also need a towel (and any other showering accoutrement you need)
You will also obviously need a change of clothes (and a spare pair of socks, too)
We have a need for around 6 stooges (plus 4 standbys) and they will all get something out of it. Selection is on a first-come-first-served basis on the day.
In terms of clean-up, we have a cleaning station with 2 camping showers and an expected turnaround of about 8 mins per stooge. We have tested this personally and it is doable (tried and tested)
Right!!! That's it! Really looking forward to seeing you all on Saturday!
gungepuppet said: I heard on another site its still on, and Jim will be making an announcement soon! 
Yes it is and he has.
For everyone else...
I'm new here, having been on our planet for over half a century. I'm not new to kink (same name on FL) but new here, and I haven't had the time to fill in my profile properly and now I'm less inclined to do so.
This is the first
thread I'm reading on UMD, because I want to help create something free for your community (and we learn and grow in many ways, so maybe mine in the future) Oh, you are welcome BTW!
I organise stuff, in real life and for fun. I've organised world record attempts and co-organised airshows. I've taught in all walks of life.
I've organised safety for world class events, Olympic teams and National events and managed teams up to 70 people, in high risk activities/extreme sports.
I'm First Aid at Work, HSE Safety, Rescue and Practical Rescue Management trained.
Ascwell as, a project manager and have created logistic infrastructure for large companies.
I also organise munches and play events for fun and the support/benefit of others.
I'm a part of our team and I've chosen to stick my head over this parapet. I don't blame others for not wanting to.
I'm very good friends with NaughtyJim and when he asked me to support him with this, I was all in from the start. Sounds like fun right?
He IS a good chap, so much so, that he's one of a few people that I'd call, if my life depended on it.
So, I've been witness to everything that has happened from the beginning of this. I saw him reach out to another community member about an event, get permission and even cooperation if he wanted it.
I saw him get all fired up to create something and that fired me/us up too. I saw the positivity on here and that was great.
What I didn't see was his oversight/mistake about the use of the name. Of course when I realised, we had a private chat, as you would, if you were curious to find out the answers.
He acknowledged that he f**ked up and in his own time, he apologised privately, in his own words. Pressure was brought about, to do this publicly too, which he did.
The character of someone who acknowledges mistakes is shown by how they act after (on all sides). I'm certain that it was an oversight due to striving for the end result.
Now I've had something similar, someone created a Munch with the same name as one I used to run. I DMd them with the link to the profile of the same name and asked if they wouldn't mind changing it. They asked if, as they had already started organising it, could they continue to use it just this once and change the name next time. I rolled my eyes but said that was fine. They did change the name as promised.
Am I perfect? Ha! Not a chance, have I made mistakes? Of course. From tiny to huuuuge f**ups! We all learn more from our mistakes than we do getting things right the first time.
We are all responsible for how we deal with the aftermath of all mistakes.
I see many mistakes here and on various other platforms (linked at the bottom) discussing this. I see many positives and optimists, thank you to those people.
Then I see other things.
Questions are good, demands not so much. One or two qestions are good, a dozen questions at once or the same question multiple times isn't great (sealioning?).
Curiosity is good entitlement not really.
Conversations are good, shouting on the internet, hardly productive.
Transparency is good, up until someone weaponises it.
Lists of demands..? I'm failing to find any good there TBH.
I see people affected by this, on all sides. No wonder some people want to avoid speaking here (and why I haven't so far) I'd wager there are many people watching this who'd like to say something but don't want to get piled on.
I see points raised that have already been addressed.
I see spurious claims.
I see information in several places (muddying waters?) that contradict each other and answers to questions already answered.
I see people talk about trust and realise that only one side is shouting on the internet. The other is discreet and working behind the scenes to get stuff done.
Constructive criticism is welcome, mud slinging without prenegotiation not.
Push back is reasonable, retaliation is horrid (I'd suggest)
If we could all be adults and treat other adults with the basics of human respect, that would be a nice start.
I'm not here to get into a debate. I won't be answering questions. My time is better used being helpful and frankly this thread has used up too many spoons already. Some of the comments and insinuations are vile (from my perspective).
I'd urge everyone to read what they have said here, and think about the wider picture.
The event will go ahead as planned, I'm certainly not prepared to let anyone down. People are welcome to come along to it, if they wish.
If not, that's ok. If you think it's unsafe, just come to the pub after. If not, there, then no-one is forcing you.
If people have safety information, from past events, I'm happy to receive it and I'll delete it after ours. Gatekeeping safety information makes YOU look unsafe/dangerous.
I'd personally like to see a healthier, solution-orientated debate/community. Then I might just get more involved.
Those who have never made a mistake are welcome to attack me, now...
Those that don't know me can mount a smear campaign...
Future information will only be issued to ticket holders.
Respect begets respect.
References (from the horses mouth, so to speak)
https://x.com/PennyBanksWAM/status/1835683753282150847
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tlDO5lpbEwvaSKyBRjs1JVmcP5Ttp5yYz7D78GRTSgg/edit?usp=sharing
https://fetlife.com/users/55375/posts/11344691
Oh, all puns intended...
Allegedly Derek!
Gonna say that ultimately - I'm glad there is an event still going on.
It's probably a little late for myself or others who needed to see if this would be proceeding before forking out on non-refundable trains and London accommodation roulette. But especially for folk who had this booked, or live an hour away, there's info they can make.
I do however feel in any two-sides (and arguably there are more than 2 sides) I think there does have to be proper understanding rather than picking a side.
So, for me, I can understand an honest mistake due to external stress (even if that puts out other concerns, we'll waive past those for the sake of arguing circular arguments) but that also doesn't mean there aren't others affected by that mistake. Who, likewise, some have and some haven't been on this thread.
Some folk might be more forgiving than others, but neither are wrong.
Anyhow, to return to the top. Ultimately, I am glad this can go ahead and hopefully everyone who does go has a good time.
It's probably a little late for myself or others who needed to see if this would be proceeding before forking out on non-refundable trains and London accommodation roulette. But especially for folk who had this booked, or live an hour away, there's info they can make.
I do however feel in any two-sides (and arguably there are more than 2 sides) I think there does have to be proper understanding rather than picking a side.
So, for me, I can understand an honest mistake due to external stress (even if that puts out other concerns, we'll waive past those for the sake of arguing circular arguments) but that also doesn't mean there aren't others affected by that mistake. Who, likewise, some have and some haven't been on this thread.
Some folk might be more forgiving than others, but neither are wrong.
Anyhow, to return to the top. Ultimately, I am glad this can go ahead and hopefully everyone who does go has a good time.
Hopefully the folks that attend have fun and stay safe.
Fenrir100 said: I will say, this is a really sad first impression for people just joining the community. Nobody wants bad actors in this situation.
Yeah this is my first impression of the community and I found it really sad to see how much people turned on a guy hosting a free event for them just because he got the name wrong.
Not Jim, alleged wedding attendee
Derek_Kelp said:
Yes it is and he has.
For everyone else...
I'm new here, having been on our planet for over half a century. I'm not new to kink (same name on FL) but new here, and I haven't had the time to fill in my profile properly and now I'm less inclined to do so.
This is the first
thread I'm reading on UMD, because I want to help create something free for your community (and we learn and grow in many ways, so maybe mine in the future) Oh, you are welcome BTW!
I organise stuff, in real life and for fun. I've organised world record attempts and co-organised airshows. I've taught in all walks of life.
I've organised safety for world class events, Olympic teams and National events and managed teams up to 70 people, in high risk activities/extreme sports.
I'm First Aid at Work, HSE Safety, Rescue and Practical Rescue Management trained.
Ascwell as, a project manager and have created logistic infrastructure for large companies.
I also organise munches and play events for fun and the support/benefit of others.
I'm a part of our team and I've chosen to stick my head over this parapet. I don't blame others for not wanting to.
I'm very good friends with NaughtyJim and when he asked me to support him with this, I was all in from the start. Sounds like fun right?
He IS a good chap, so much so, that he's one of a few people that I'd call, if my life depended on it.
So, I've been witness to everything that has happened from the beginning of this. I saw him reach out to another community member about an event, get permission and even cooperation if he wanted it.
I saw him get all fired up to create something and that fired me/us up too. I saw the positivity on here and that was great.
What I didn't see was his oversight/mistake about the use of the name. Of course when I realised, we had a private chat, as you would, if you were curious to find out the answers.
He acknowledged that he f**ked up and in his own time, he apologised privately, in his own words. Pressure was brought about, to do this publicly too, which he did.
The character of someone who acknowledges mistakes is shown by how they act after (on all sides). I'm certain that it was an oversight due to striving for the end result.
Now I've had something similar, someone created a Munch with the same name as one I used to run. I DMd them with the link to the profile of the same name and asked if they wouldn't mind changing it. They asked if, as they had already started organising it, could they continue to use it just this once and change the name next time. I rolled my eyes but said that was fine. They did change the name as promised.
Am I perfect? Ha! Not a chance, have I made mistakes? Of course. From tiny to huuuuge f**ups! We all learn more from our mistakes than we do getting things right the first time.
We are all responsible for how we deal with the aftermath of all mistakes.
I see many mistakes here and on various other platforms (linked at the bottom) discussing this. I see many positives and optimists, thank you to those people.
Then I see other things.
Questions are good, demands not so much. One or two qestions are good, a dozen questions at once or the same question multiple times isn't great (sealioning?).
Curiosity is good entitlement not really.
Conversations are good, shouting on the internet, hardly productive.
Transparency is good, up until someone weaponises it.
Lists of demands..? I'm failing to find any good there TBH.
I see people affected by this, on all sides. No wonder some people want to avoid speaking here (and why I haven't so far) I'd wager there are many people watching this who'd like to say something but don't want to get piled on.
I see points raised that have already been addressed.
I see spurious claims.
I see information in several places (muddying waters?) that contradict each other and answers to questions already answered.
I see people talk about trust and realise that only one side is shouting on the internet. The other is discreet and working behind the scenes to get stuff done.
Constructive criticism is welcome, mud slinging without prenegotiation not.
Push back is reasonable, retaliation is horrid (I'd suggest)
If we could all be adults and treat other adults with the basics of human respect, that would be a nice start.
I'm not here to get into a debate. I won't be answering questions. My time is better used being helpful and frankly this thread has used up too many spoons already. Some of the comments and insinuations are vile (from my perspective).
I'd urge everyone to read what they have said here, and think about the wider picture.
The event will go ahead as planned, I'm certainly not prepared to let anyone down. People are welcome to come along to it, if they wish.
If not, that's ok. If you think it's unsafe, just come to the pub after. If not, there, then no-one is forcing you.
If people have safety information, from past events, I'm happy to receive it and I'll delete it after ours. Gatekeeping safety information makes YOU look unsafe/dangerous.
I'd personally like to see a healthier, solution-orientated debate/community. Then I might just get more involved.
Those who have never made a mistake are welcome to attack me, now...
Those that don't know me can mount a smear campaign...
Future information will only be issued to ticket holders.
Respect begets respect.
References (from the horses mouth, so to speak)
https://x.com/PennyBanksWAM/status/1835683753282150847
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tlDO5lpbEwvaSKyBRjs1JVmcP5Ttp5yYz7D78GRTSgg/edit?usp=sharing
https://fetlife.com/users/55375/posts/11344691
Oh, all puns intended...
gungepuppet said: I heard on another site its still on, and Jim will be making an announcement soon!
Yes it is and he has.
For everyone else...
I'm new here, having been on our planet for over half a century. I'm not new to kink (same name on FL) but new here, and I haven't had the time to fill in my profile properly and now I'm less inclined to do so.
This is the first
thread I'm reading on UMD, because I want to help create something free for your community (and we learn and grow in many ways, so maybe mine in the future) Oh, you are welcome BTW!
I organise stuff, in real life and for fun. I've organised world record attempts and co-organised airshows. I've taught in all walks of life.
I've organised safety for world class events, Olympic teams and National events and managed teams up to 70 people, in high risk activities/extreme sports.
I'm First Aid at Work, HSE Safety, Rescue and Practical Rescue Management trained.
Ascwell as, a project manager and have created logistic infrastructure for large companies.
I also organise munches and play events for fun and the support/benefit of others.
I'm a part of our team and I've chosen to stick my head over this parapet. I don't blame others for not wanting to.
I'm very good friends with NaughtyJim and when he asked me to support him with this, I was all in from the start. Sounds like fun right?
He IS a good chap, so much so, that he's one of a few people that I'd call, if my life depended on it.
So, I've been witness to everything that has happened from the beginning of this. I saw him reach out to another community member about an event, get permission and even cooperation if he wanted it.
I saw him get all fired up to create something and that fired me/us up too. I saw the positivity on here and that was great.
What I didn't see was his oversight/mistake about the use of the name. Of course when I realised, we had a private chat, as you would, if you were curious to find out the answers.
He acknowledged that he f**ked up and in his own time, he apologised privately, in his own words. Pressure was brought about, to do this publicly too, which he did.
The character of someone who acknowledges mistakes is shown by how they act after (on all sides). I'm certain that it was an oversight due to striving for the end result.
Now I've had something similar, someone created a Munch with the same name as one I used to run. I DMd them with the link to the profile of the same name and asked if they wouldn't mind changing it. They asked if, as they had already started organising it, could they continue to use it just this once and change the name next time. I rolled my eyes but said that was fine. They did change the name as promised.
Am I perfect? Ha! Not a chance, have I made mistakes? Of course. From tiny to huuuuge f**ups! We all learn more from our mistakes than we do getting things right the first time.
We are all responsible for how we deal with the aftermath of all mistakes.
I see many mistakes here and on various other platforms (linked at the bottom) discussing this. I see many positives and optimists, thank you to those people.
Then I see other things.
Questions are good, demands not so much. One or two qestions are good, a dozen questions at once or the same question multiple times isn't great (sealioning?).
Curiosity is good entitlement not really.
Conversations are good, shouting on the internet, hardly productive.
Transparency is good, up until someone weaponises it.
Lists of demands..? I'm failing to find any good there TBH.
I see people affected by this, on all sides. No wonder some people want to avoid speaking here (and why I haven't so far) I'd wager there are many people watching this who'd like to say something but don't want to get piled on.
I see points raised that have already been addressed.
I see spurious claims.
I see information in several places (muddying waters?) that contradict each other and answers to questions already answered.
I see people talk about trust and realise that only one side is shouting on the internet. The other is discreet and working behind the scenes to get stuff done.
Constructive criticism is welcome, mud slinging without prenegotiation not.
Push back is reasonable, retaliation is horrid (I'd suggest)
If we could all be adults and treat other adults with the basics of human respect, that would be a nice start.
I'm not here to get into a debate. I won't be answering questions. My time is better used being helpful and frankly this thread has used up too many spoons already. Some of the comments and insinuations are vile (from my perspective).
I'd urge everyone to read what they have said here, and think about the wider picture.
The event will go ahead as planned, I'm certainly not prepared to let anyone down. People are welcome to come along to it, if they wish.
If not, that's ok. If you think it's unsafe, just come to the pub after. If not, there, then no-one is forcing you.
If people have safety information, from past events, I'm happy to receive it and I'll delete it after ours. Gatekeeping safety information makes YOU look unsafe/dangerous.
I'd personally like to see a healthier, solution-orientated debate/community. Then I might just get more involved.
Those who have never made a mistake are welcome to attack me, now...
Those that don't know me can mount a smear campaign...
Future information will only be issued to ticket holders.
Respect begets respect.
References (from the horses mouth, so to speak)
https://x.com/PennyBanksWAM/status/1835683753282150847
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tlDO5lpbEwvaSKyBRjs1JVmcP5Ttp5yYz7D78GRTSgg/edit?usp=sharing
https://fetlife.com/users/55375/posts/11344691
Oh, all puns intended...
I have one last question- if Jim's actions after the true events came to light should speak volumes what should we take from his silence and avoidance of engaging with the community who he has lied to and his lack of apology to those he has wronged?
As for the event it's great that something can still go ahead for the community however I have my doubts about the true intentions behind a bunch of newcomers hosting an event for us. You don't know us, we don't know you. - I understand mess is still being involved and you are asking for stooges. I'm assuming you are telling those stooges that the event venue does NOT have appropriate facilities for them to shower off in and these will be temporary facilities provided by the organisers?
As for holding people to account and asking questions- that is our right and if nobody asked questions then I can't think how many more abusers would still be among the community here (I say more as I understand there are still some among us who action continues to not be taken against for one reason or another)
Teaching bratty models a messy lesson since 2014
MiaRabbit said:
Yeah this is my first impression of the community and I found it really sad to see how much people turned on a guy hosting a free event for them just because he got the name wrong.
Fenrir100 said: I will say, this is a really sad first impression for people just joining the community. Nobody wants bad actors in this situation.
Yeah this is my first impression of the community and I found it really sad to see how much people turned on a guy hosting a free event for them just because he got the name wrong.
This is not just about getting a name wrong. This is about someone manipulating the community through lies and deceit, pretending he has claim to continue a well-ran, popular event to increase popularity and get closer to certain members of the community that he and his co-organisers would not otherwise be able to, get hold of free content under false pretences the list goes on. We are not turning on Jim personally- just there is a lot more that you are not reading/understanding as you don't have the context of the many issues which have happened here before
Teaching bratty models a messy lesson since 2014
MessyBratz said:
This is not just about getting a name wrong. This is about someone manipulating the community through lies and deceit, pretending he has claim to continue a well-ran, popular event to increase popularity and get closer to certain members of the community that he and his co-organisers would not otherwise be able to, get hold of free content under false pretences the list goes on. We are not turning on Jim personally- just there is a lot more that you are not reading/understanding as you don't have the context of the many issues which have happened here before
This is not just about getting a name wrong. This is about someone manipulating the community through lies and deceit, pretending he has claim to continue a well-ran, popular event to increase popularity and get closer to certain members of the community that he and his co-organisers would not otherwise be able to, get hold of free content under false pretences the list goes on. We are not turning on Jim personally- just there is a lot more that you are not reading/understanding as you don't have the context of the many issues which have happened here before
Yeah... I really don't see much in the way of lies and deceit here. We have receipts showing in black and white Penny's affirmative consent for Jim to run and event akin to Messtival; Jim has emphasised from the start that Messtival is Penny's event, the name point was corrected as soon as it was brought to Jim's attention, and most recently Penny has made clear that they are not asking for the event to be cancelled. So why is this assertion that Sploshcars doesn't have Penny's consent going so unchallenged? I don't think there's really any lying here by anybody, but some of the presentation of this really has been looking pretty gaslighty...
We are not turning on Jim personally
This is quite amusing to read from someone who has by my count devoted over 5000 words to drawing as much negativity to Jim & his event as possible.
& in response to the separate sockpuppet query. Completely understand where you'd get that impression. Can confirm I am a real person and will no doubt meet some of you on Saturday! I want to make it VERY clear, that I do NOT have Jim's blessing to write any of this. Bafflingly he continues to speak very highly of you all (he has been doing so for most of the eight year's I've known him), is reacting to this all with a lot of self-reflection and determination not to let ticketholders down, and continues to plough his own money into this so people aren't left out of pocket on their train fares.
If it weren't for them having such a full post history I'd have wondered the same of MessyBratz. Does make me curious though... what connection do they have to this event to be so invested in dismantling it?
Not Jim, alleged wedding attendee
MiaRabbit said:
Yeah... I really don't see much in the way of lies and deceit here. We have receipts showing in black and white Penny's affirmative consent for Jim to run and event akin to Messtival; Jim has emphasised from the start that Messtival is Penny's event, the name point was corrected as soon as it was brought to Jim's attention, and most recently Penny has made clear that they are not asking for the event to be cancelled. So why is this assertion that Sploshcars doesn't have Penny's consent going so unchallenged? I don't think there's really any lying here by anybody, but some of the presentation of this really has been looking pretty gaslighty...
This is quite amusing to read from someone who has by my count devoted over 5000 words to drawing as much negativity to Jim & his event as possible.
& in response to the separate sockpuppet query. Completely understand where you'd get that impression. Can confirm I am a real person and will no doubt meet some of you on Saturday! I want to make it VERY clear, that I do NOT have Jim's blessing to write any of this. Bafflingly he continues to speak very highly of you all (he has been doing so for most of the eight year's I've known him), is reacting to this all with a lot of self-reflection and determination not to let ticketholders down, and continues to plough his own money into this so people aren't left out of pocket on their train fares.
If it weren't for them having such a full post history I'd have wondered the same of MessyBratz. Does make me curious though... what connection do they have to this event to be so invested in dismantling it?
MessyBratz said:
This is not just about getting a name wrong. This is about someone manipulating the community through lies and deceit, pretending he has claim to continue a well-ran, popular event to increase popularity and get closer to certain members of the community that he and his co-organisers would not otherwise be able to, get hold of free content under false pretences the list goes on. We are not turning on Jim personally- just there is a lot more that you are not reading/understanding as you don't have the context of the many issues which have happened here before
This is not just about getting a name wrong. This is about someone manipulating the community through lies and deceit, pretending he has claim to continue a well-ran, popular event to increase popularity and get closer to certain members of the community that he and his co-organisers would not otherwise be able to, get hold of free content under false pretences the list goes on. We are not turning on Jim personally- just there is a lot more that you are not reading/understanding as you don't have the context of the many issues which have happened here before
Yeah... I really don't see much in the way of lies and deceit here. We have receipts showing in black and white Penny's affirmative consent for Jim to run and event akin to Messtival; Jim has emphasised from the start that Messtival is Penny's event, the name point was corrected as soon as it was brought to Jim's attention, and most recently Penny has made clear that they are not asking for the event to be cancelled. So why is this assertion that Sploshcars doesn't have Penny's consent going so unchallenged? I don't think there's really any lying here by anybody, but some of the presentation of this really has been looking pretty gaslighty...
We are not turning on Jim personally
This is quite amusing to read from someone who has by my count devoted over 5000 words to drawing as much negativity to Jim & his event as possible.
& in response to the separate sockpuppet query. Completely understand where you'd get that impression. Can confirm I am a real person and will no doubt meet some of you on Saturday! I want to make it VERY clear, that I do NOT have Jim's blessing to write any of this. Bafflingly he continues to speak very highly of you all (he has been doing so for most of the eight year's I've known him), is reacting to this all with a lot of self-reflection and determination not to let ticketholders down, and continues to plough his own money into this so people aren't left out of pocket on their train fares.
If it weren't for them having such a full post history I'd have wondered the same of MessyBratz. Does make me curious though... what connection do they have to this event to be so invested in dismantling it?
Are you Jim??
Not been here more than a day and a half and you're already adding to a very long thread with no context whatsoever as to what the issues are (besides Jim's incomplete story) and suddenly I'm in the wrong for suggesting that there is transparency and informed consent at a fetish event organised by complete outsiders yeah I'm not buying it
Teaching bratty models a messy lesson since 2014
Are you Jim??
Lol, I'm not Jim
Not been here more than a day and a half and you're already adding to a very long thread with no context whatsoever as to what the issues are (besides Jim's incomplete story) and suddenly I'm in the wrong for suggesting that there is transparency and informed consent at a fetish event organised by complete outsiders yeah I'm not buying it
Hmmmm, wonder why this thread is so long?....
Not Jim, alleged wedding attendee
MessyBratz quoted but ignored what I said:
I have one last question
Derek_Kelp said: I won't be answering any questions
I have one last question
Allegedly Derek!
MiaRabbit said: I don't think there's really any lying here by anybody, but some of the presentation of this really has been looking pretty gaslighty...
Interesting you bring up gaslighting considering the recent posts by people that were coincidentally made right after the partner to this event appears talking about a great introduction to the community. Your extremely new accounts and your first posts are trying to guilt trip people in the community for the response. I guess the irony is not lost on you.
gungepuppet said:
Class. Avoiding with the point by questioning the legitimacy of the person asking.
MessyBratz said:
Are you Jim??
Are you Jim??
Class. Avoiding with the point by questioning the legitimacy of the person asking.
We got this small issue that there are (at least) 3 accounts who've signed up recently for the purpose of joining this thread - including yours, as it happens
And obviously there's different reasons folk might do this to different degrees of legitimacy - like, I totally understand Derek's, for example
And yours to a degree - that you signed up to tell people the event was still happening and there was an event elsewhere.
But then there is someone who claims it's their 'first impression' who then intentionally misrepresents the situation and then makes a follow up post which completely blows the cover and suggests, no this isn't a newbie with first impressions - it's just someone posing otherwise to lead a narration.
Whether they (or you?) are Jim (or not) is totally moot - but there's something which raises eyebrows a bit in a situation where folk are questioning trust and transparency for someone to create a blatantly fake persona in defence of an event that some folk are split over.
Of course, this might just be "trying to help" but it's misguided and a potential own goal that stirs further doubt.
To reiterate something I recently said - I want and am glad the event is going ahead, and I think it'd be important to avoid any late goofs.
Otherwise, no lessons have been learned.
Derek_Kelp said:
MessyBratz quoted but ignored what I said:
I have one last question
Derek_Kelp said: I won't be answering any questions
I have one last question
You can run and hide like Jim. I will not be at the event and I know lots of others (including stooges) who have pulled out due to it not being Messtival and having been lied to.
Also - I hope that the owners of the Sploshcars event have given their blessing otherwise this will end up being a rather expensive lesson for you all
Teaching bratty models a messy lesson since 2014
London90 said: Given the inter-platform nature of this debate, (I'm sure I've also seen things on FL, TwiX, Insta and Telegram!) Could these new accounts be people who have heard about this thread from afar, but still have equally valid views?
The question is - has Jim been challenged on those other platforms too? Or has he been allowed to share his version of events more with those less known to the various issues which have plagued our community?
Teaching bratty models a messy lesson since 2014
London90 said: Given the inter-platform nature of this debate, (I'm sure I've also seen things on FL, TwiX, Insta and Telegram!) Could these new accounts be people who have heard about this thread from afar, but still have equally valid views?
Yes, absolutely
So for example in my comment above how I understand 2 out of 3 - I know what you've said above is definitely the case for one of those two
The other of those two I could give the benefit of the doubt that they have signed up here for the purpose of saying "Hey, event is still on" - even if it does feel a bit off
And then one more who you can understand the questioning since it was someone masquerading as a newbie who clearly knows several years of history.
Kept out of this as I had doubts about the suitability of the venue as soon as it was announced, I still do. Reading through the comments and responses doesn't fill me with much confidence about the event as a whole.
MessyBratz has asked some fair questions and I know with the event being tomorrow, we're not really going to get the answers anyway. But as a Female new to the scene and hoping to progress further eventually, safety would be my first concern. Have people attending actually been vetted?
I've had rude and sexist comments from a few people on the Fetlife Attending list that made me second guess myself and not wish to continue on the WAM route.
I've also got friends and people I know nominated for awards in various categories. Hell, even my Boyfriend was nominated for Best Male Performer, So I would have been going regardless to represent him. But with everything that's gone on on the run up to this with people dropping out and Jim not saying anything really except for a sub par apology that more or less read as fishing for sympathy. I'm really not filled with confidence.
I'm not seeing how you can jump from getting the ok to do something similar to an already established event, to actually taking it on as your own. With the amount of people supposedly involved in planning this, how did nobody else pick up on it?
I'm sure things have been discussed behind the scenes. but publicly, some info will need to be shared.
MessyBratz has asked some fair questions and I know with the event being tomorrow, we're not really going to get the answers anyway. But as a Female new to the scene and hoping to progress further eventually, safety would be my first concern. Have people attending actually been vetted?
I've had rude and sexist comments from a few people on the Fetlife Attending list that made me second guess myself and not wish to continue on the WAM route.
I've also got friends and people I know nominated for awards in various categories. Hell, even my Boyfriend was nominated for Best Male Performer, So I would have been going regardless to represent him. But with everything that's gone on on the run up to this with people dropping out and Jim not saying anything really except for a sub par apology that more or less read as fishing for sympathy. I'm really not filled with confidence.
I'm not seeing how you can jump from getting the ok to do something similar to an already established event, to actually taking it on as your own. With the amount of people supposedly involved in planning this, how did nobody else pick up on it?
I'm sure things have been discussed behind the scenes. but publicly, some info will need to be shared.
Sometimes you have to be a little bit Naughty
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