Convicted by who? Some kangaroo court system? A legal system that's highly politicized and favorable for women?

Each person can decide on their own, if they agree with Leon's verdict, and how to act on that on their own. Telling people what to do IS "quasi-religious moral superiority BS".

It says more about you being cool supporting a convicted sex offender who needed several attempts to tell a version of his truth in this thread (I'm not making that up, it's all there to read, if you're capable), than your horseshit above says about me, pal.

I hope nobody sexually assaults any of the women close to you, seeing as you appear to zero empathy for the victims of such crimes.

Well... I hope you get #metoo-ed some day, and maybe you'll get a taste of your own medicine. If you do, you'd be wishing you had people like me on your jury where facts matter more than feelings.

Also any judicial system that rules in favor of Amber Heard... is a joke.

Cool cool. You're just showing yourself up for what you really are. I'm fine with that.

Convicted by who? A Crown Court after pleading guilty.

Pleading guilty is not a verdict.

I think we'll just have to disagree about what having morals and decency means. Obviously you're less concerned about sex offenders than others are and that's completely your choice.

Most, if not all, of what Leon has said is entirely plausible, the sticking point is that he pleaded guilty. That's the bit which is the huge huge red flag with flashing lights and sirens attached. It's also entirely plausible that he was bang to rights which is why he pleaded guilty.

Imagine if it happened again...

He doesn't care if it happens again. It's very obvious.

Apparently you are either clueless or deceptively leaving out the fact that innocent people plead guilty very frequently. I am more concerned that everyone can make up their own mind, instead of following the crowd.

Going by your logic, because Ariel has not plead guilty and is not convicted for her shenanigans with Jayce, we should welcome her with open arms. Give me a break...

It's getting late, and we have both said what needs to be said.

You haven't contributed a single thing that needed saying. All you've really achieved is showing yourself to be an odd little misogynist, who'd happily masturbate over sex crimes

I refer you to my post on the second page which says:


That's fine, different people have different morals and values.


Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else as I've not said or suggested anything even close to that. I don't even know what she pleaded not guilty to in court.

I recommend rereading my posts as I've said that most if not all of what Leon has said is entirely plausible, that fact he pleaded guilty doesn't mean necessarily he did what he was accused of. It means that he decided pleading guilty was the best option available to him. His reasons or motives for deciding it was the best option is something that only he knows.


It's okay, I'm quite happy to continue explaining and helping people understand the severity of this whole situation.

Sadly that does seem to be the case.

Just because the sex offender apologists don't give a fuck about victims, the fallout from this is more than just MostWam. Some producers and customers will be wondering whether or not they wish to be using a porn website that allows a convicted sex offender to sell porn. That's something else for lchris001 to think about.

People will be considering if they're willing to risk being seen as guilty by association.

The only way for Leon to fix it involves clearing his name.

I would politely disagree. I don't think it is dangerous in a civilised society to ask that all viewpoints and possibilities are considered before a verdict is reached (whatever the context).

In those posts, I was responding directly to posts saying that there was no plausible reason why Leon would say he was guilty if he wasn't (when there clearly was, and there is copious evidence of this in criminal history) and that the saying that 'there's no smoke without fire' is enough to condemn someone (which I disagree with entirely).

You are right...I wasn't in the police enquiry room and I haven't seen the transcripts...none of us have, and that's entirely my point. (Unless you have, in which case why haven't you shared this proof). I was very careful to make clear I wasn't saying that Leon was innocent / justified or whatever , far from it, ...just that his assertions that he was not guilty were plausible with what we knew at the time. A lot has moved on from when I posted and Leon has shared more with us, so we now know that something did happen, but again none of us know exactly what.

I was at pains to point out that it was 100% right that the model was heard, and had her day in court. And nowhere have I said anything that contradicts that. I have only tried to suggest the principle that, before we rush to judgement, we wait until we have all viewpoints, and carefully weigh everything before us. Especially as, with a guilty plea, the evidence was never tested before a jury.

And the final point I would make is that we now do have Leon's account, and we do know that clearly *something* happened, howsoever occasioned, that was evidentially strong enough for the CPS to charge. Leon pled guilty and was sentenced and punished. Even though the judge said it was 'completely out of character', it is absolutely right that, on the basis he pled guilty, he was punished in accordance with that plea.

The bit I struggle with, is why in society we then feel the need to inflict further punishment on those who have already received their punishment via the courts, and had their lives turned upside down as well. Surely the punishment aspect is what the courts are there for.

Leon's marriage is over. He has to tell all future models he was convicted of a sex offence. He has to tell his child the same thing, at some stage. He has a suspended sentence hanging over him. All of these things may well be the right outcomes for this moment of madness.

But I don't get why we can then feel entitled to say 'no..the courts didn't do enough. We are all without sin here and we cast you out and push you further into a downward spiral'. My feeling is the courts have done their job, Leon has received his punishment and anyone who chooses to boycott him should feel 100% able to do so. But I don't feel it's UMD's job to hand out further 'justice'.

I do note also that we often read cases of those who, through an ''out of character' (in the Judge's words) moment of madness, are double punished..not just by the courts, but then by wider society and can't rebuild their livelihood even after receiving their punishment in the courts. And then when the person is driven to desperate acts, there's much hand-wringing when it is way too late.

Lastly, as others have said, it's absolutely vital we remember the victim too. I really hope and pray that the court case brought her closure and that she is able to move on. Whatever exactly happened, she was left in a position where she felt she needed to put herself through the trauma of a court case in order to seek justice. And that would never be done lightly. I just don't feel the two things are mutually exclusive, that if we have some empathy for Leon and feel that we should leave the retributive justice to the legal system, it means we are pro sex offenders. To me that's a massive misrepresentation, intentional otherwise.

Lastly, people have talked about those with vested interests. I am a direct business rival of Leon. It would probably benefit me financially if he was kicked off UMD. But I am sticking my head above the parapet because I am all for trying to find the nuance in an increasingly black and white world.

And if all of the above means "I have lost a lot of credibility" as you write, then I will have to pay that price.

I agree RevSlymsford

And for the record, Leon is correct Lisa is still working at Mostwam, You can hear her in the background in some of the new girl 2022 gameshows, and i believe she filmed on a justdunked day which i'm so happy about
I truly hope she continues to shoot great content in the future

I for one, Will continue to enjoy what people like Sky have brought to this community, to my life with incredible content, incredible sense of wonder and enjoyment and banter through her relationships with Lucy, Amber, Casey etc.

Would it help if a pole started with questions along the line of the ones below

In my opinion it would be something like this

Question one
Should Liam be banned from UMD but allowed to continue at MostWam

Question two
Should MostWam and all the sites affiliated with it now be removed from UMD to take away any affiliation from a person that has been convicted of a sexual offence

Question three
Has justice been served if so then should Liam be allowed get the help he needs and allowed to continue selling and producing his material here on UMD


It would be a simple poll where no comments were allowed to be left as I believe we already have two threads going with peoples opinions so no need to start up a third one, just keep this one simple?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences dealing with this situation Al

I've edited some of this message so only include the part that I believe is necessary that was just sent to me from Leon

Leon said

I did it the way I was told to do it, I then did it the new way I was told to do it.
And yes, publicly outing myself was always considered a dangerous option.
Even just telling Derek had dangers.


My reply

Come on Leon even you know Derek is a man of many secrets I have spoken to him in the past about different subjects that I've gone absolutely no further this guy is here to help regardless and would've probably guided you better than anyone else on this site so please don't use that as an excuse as I believe you are completely taking the piss asyou know this guy better than anyone you've been dealing with him for nearly 20 years, if I showed him this message he would probably laugh in your face
The support he has probably given you on your site over the years it's an absolutely ridiculous comment to make
You are just digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole now to say that about Derek, he just goes above and beyond
pack your bags it's time for you to leave in my opinion
This site will carry on without you the same as it did with Ariel and Jesse you had your time as they had theirs you cocked up now face the consequences what is the point of you hanging around you are never going to be the person you was and will probably end up shutting down within three months anyway through lack of downloads
clearly you're not going to enjoy the Success you had





It's not something I would normally post from a private message but as there was nothing confidential in that post I just believe that is one of the most ridiculous things that's ever been said to me.
As anyone here who has ever dealt with Derek personal issues or just advice he is the main man to go to and one of the best people to ever deal with and will give you an honest opinion and try and help out as much as possible so to now start blaming Derek as well who is the owner of this site is an absolute piss take in my opinion

Sorry I did put Leon spellcheck changed it once I've finished & I didn't spot it so my apologies

As Al said, most opinions and thoughts have been covered in the 100+ comments here. However, I'd like to shed some context on the UK justice system for the benefit of those home and abroad.

For those without direct experience I say this: you will never understand how twisted, inconsistent and unjust the UK justice system is until you have direct involvement with it. Things are not simply black and white. People have not always done what they are accused of. And people who have committed crimes are found not-guilty more often than you'd think.

The argument of 'Oh well the CPS wouldn't have moved to prosecution if there wasn't smoke without fire' is absolute rubbish. The CPS work on a balance of a 'reasonable conviction', whether the person did it or not. This allows for a lot of 'he said / she said' cases to move into a court space without the need for physical evidence. I've known cases where a defendant has been able to prove their innocence because they were literally outside of the country at the time of the alleged offence, only for the prosecution to turn around and say 'Oh well it might not have been that date'. This is just one example of many I could give... but it happens, and I've seen it happen.

Leon pleaded guilty based on protecting his child and not blowing our fetish (including this website) high into the sky... because believe me the national press is one particularly nasty vulture that we don't want to encourage into our domain!

So to anyone who says it's black and white... it very much isn't. To anyone who is sat on high, in judgement, with no lived experience of going through the justice process as a participant, just remember that one day your judgement and predisposition could come back to bite you on the ass.

Furthermore, this lynch mob of chasing people down and ruining their lives following any kind of sexual prosecution really is depressing. People are human... they make mistakes... they learn, develop and grow. They also need to heal. Chastising and demonising an individual for making a mistake, owning up to it or accepting their punishment is ridiculous because we are literally raised being told that we should own our mistakes and deal with it to move forward and grow. Yes you can argue about the semantics of how the information was presented... or if it was explained clearly... but regardless of your feeling towards Leon, he is still a person, with a family and a need to get on and survive.

Nobody in this life is perfect... and I literally mean no one. People still need kindness, compassion, understanding as well as scrutiny, challenge and improvement. Like it or not, we're all on this journey together... and I don't think it's right that people should just be extinguished out of life because of a conviction. Remember... if you want to be a judge, you can go work your arse off and become one. Maybe then you'll see the foibles of the justice system (and life!) and come back with a more enlightened approach.

Namaste.

If you seriously insist on attacking in attacking innocent people because they don't think the CONTENT someone makes should be banned completely, as it has nothing to do with anyones crimes, then you seriously revaluate yourself bud. Yes, I've read Penny's post. It was very poignant, however it's not a shield for you to deflect any other viewpoint off of. How about you actually read the posts of the people you're attacking here, as you very obviously have not.



This is nothing more than your own speculation, and in your mind it's somehow turned into fact. How on Earth do you know the modes reasons for continuing? You are aware that it is also possible that they continued because MostWam became a safe place to work? But whatever, Leon is a convicted sex offender and shouldn't be allowed to continue working on the platform. This might shock you, but that doesn't mean you need to get rid of MostWam. That's because any subsequent money MostWam makes can be sent to various charities that help people who have been through sexual assault. Something far more productive than yelling at innocent people that they value porn more than women simply because they said that you don't have to get rid of MostWam, and that they dared to have interests of their own. (Psssst, having your own interests doesn't mean you have no care or empathy for anything else.)


Hey you said it not me.



I'm genuinely confused how you can think, "This is an unfortunate situation. Let us hope the best for the victims involved in this and hope they are alright, and since the content of MostWam and everyone else who works there has nothing to with this, and liking and having interests in things is not a crime, we should think about how it can continue without Leon, and even show how MostWam can be used as a force for good in the future" and somehow interpret it as "I want a convicted sex offender to continue making content and have no empathy for the victims whatsoever because I like MostWam content".



The fact that people are being equated to sexual assault/rape apologists because they dared to have interests of their own that have nothing to do with sexual assault, is very bleak.


Ah yes. Being upset that content you dared to enjoy is going away forever with little to no warning is.not caring about or showing any concern for the models involved? Because putting them out of a job due something that they had nothing to do with is being "concerned" for them? Why should I be surprised, you're someone who thinks their own speculation magically becomes fact.




Just be honest with yourself and admit that you're a sadistic psychopath who likes to enjoy attacking innocent people with ridiculous and egregious accusations, while hiding under a guise of wanting to "protect" people as the justification for their vicious behaviour.

Surprisingly enough, aggressive bullying tactics like this, don't work against everyone, especially against people who aren't afraid to stand up to you. If this is what you have to resort to prove how much of a "radical feminist white knight" you are, then at least do not be surprised when people retaliate in the same way against you.

Also, if it wasn't clear before: liking porn does not, and SHOULD not mean that you think that the models who star in it should be unprotected from sex offenders. You might want to take note of that.


Yeah, if I wanted to do that, I would read your post again.

I don't think that's a useful question for an opinion poll, because it's not up to any of us: that's between Leon and the other people at MostWAM.

Also, there might be practical issues here: even if he wanted (or was willing) to sell the business, is there anyone else who can afford to pay for the studio and the rights to the back catalogue?

As Kelsey said, I think the key point here is protection rather than punishment. I.e. are models at risk if they work for producer X? And is the UMD complicit if we (collectively) fund that producer, making it profitable for them to remain in this line of work?

On the other hand, we know that MostWAM now have safeguarding policies in place (as per the newspaper article and what Leon/Al have said here); I'm guessing that this involves some kind of chaperone system, so that a male photographer will never be alone with a female model. If that system had been in place 2 years ago, presumably this situation wouldn't have happened. Is that sufficient?

This isn't a perfect analogy, but I've been thinking about the modern slavery statement (required for large companies in the UK):
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/publish-an-annual-modern-slavery-statement
It's "transitive", i.e. the companies who publish these statements need to get similar assurances from their suppliers (rather than outsourcing the dodgy stuff to a 3rd party).

In the case of the UMD, I know that producers already have to issue a statement saying that they have model releases and proof of age on file. Maybe they should also be encouraged to have a safeguarding policy?

From Al's comments, we know that safeguards have been put in place for a long time at mostwam, we know that all girls have been notified about his conviction, some probably known for a long time and others that may have recently over the past few months been told... and the girls that are happy to continue to work at mostwam are doing so with the understanding of these measures and protections

I think we should respect their working practises now, we should respect the girls right to be happy with working at mostwam with this current circumstances... and with those things in mind I am perfectly happy to continue to support these incredible women that drive the company forward with my time, money and energy... just like every single one of these incredible women have now doing.

correct me if I'm wrong, but on her way out, didn't Messy Jessie (or maybe Mike, I guess) make some claims about how MostWAM treats their models? I can't remember specifics but seeing all this jogged my memory

Cant you use this argument to mentally overrule any justice system decision you disagree with? And isn't that dangerous?

The justice system isn't perfect, but internet fetishists on a forum aren't going to do any better at discovering the truth. Just saying "the justice system is flawed" isn't a convincing argument - it's still the best information we have.

Regardless of the coms that come out of MostWAM now, there's two facts involved in this case:

1) a woman felt violated enough to report a sexual assault to the police.

2) the accused pleaded guilty to that sexual assault and is on the sex offenders register.

From there on there was no transparency from MostWAM or anyone involved until that person was outed.

After that, there was a drip feed of information that contradicted itself from the convicted sex offender which started as "I was accused of something I did not do" to "I did do it and I've said sorry".

It's not hard to see why there's people, myself included, who're not buying it and aren't impressed whether either the convicted sex offender, his business, or people from his business who've popped in to tell us all that we're wrong and he's a nice bloke for a convicted sex offender.

I believe he did (albeit in the Producer's Forum and not publicly), although it was dismissed by everyone at the time as the rantings of an unpleasant character who was, as you say, soon banned anyway.

So are you implying - and tbf I'm just making the point as I'm not sure if this is what you meant - that recent events mean Mike was right all along? If so, I'd direct you to Al's post earlier. He's been with Mostwam for a decade, knows everyone well, and would refute that entirely.

They said a lot of things, but they didn't say that.

One of them said they had an issue with how I treated Lisa.

I believe the thread is still knocking around somewhere?

Wasn't really trying to imply anything, just remembered that it was Something That Happened, but I couldn't remember the details, so I raised it in case it was pertinent.

You're a damn sheep that's why you are confused. I never said you said that. I said "going by YOUR logic". That means I am extrapolating your flawed logic that convicted producers needs to be banned to the Ariel/Jayce situation. And under that situation because Ariel never pleaded guilty (and they never went to court), and she should be welcomed on UMD over Leon.

And so if you are aware that innocent people plead guilty frequently, then your comments are not out of ignorance but out of malice. Thanks for showing your true colors.

This

Ah yes, now we here that "suffering the ramifications of your own actions". ROLLEYES. Yes, he did suffer. He was convicted and he now has a criminal record. He's living the ramifications of his actions, and that is either in his inappropriate actions and/or his decision to plead guilty.

Again you missed earlier discussion on guilt and conviction. At best I would say they are correlated, but they are not equal. Guilty people do not get convicted, and not-guilt people get convicted of crimes. Next point.

It's always not cancel culture with people like you. You don't win an argument by changing the definition of words.

"Beyond reasonable doubt" is the legal standard for *criminal* cases where the stakes are incredibly high - life imprisonment or death, for example.

For civil cases, the most common standard is "more likely guilty than not."

Seeing as how the UMD does not have the power to imprison anyone (thank god) I think our standard of evidence can be on the low end of things. Just my opinion.