Please continue this discussion in a private message. These comments are offhand and diluting the purpose of the discussion. You have been warned before and consider this a second warning.

Two to three days in the background isn't good enough.
If its an immediate conviction, you shouldn't have to umm and ahh about the effects.
You paid no concern to the victim and allowed him on here for months... MONTHS.
Nothing says 'we don't care about our models' than that

Messmaster found out about Leon at the same time as the rest of us, there hasn't been a months long cover up, apart from by mostwam and Leon themselves


Edit to add - Leon said himself he purposefully kept it from Messmaster.

Totally understand and respect your thoughts and opinion here, but just wanna say in MM's defense, that this was not as clear of a situation when it came up on Friday as it is today.

And literally the only reason it IS a clear situation today is because the conversation (albeit a very painful and at times horrifying one) was allowed to take place instead of being locked.

Yes, it got incredibly ugly and depressing and disappointing along the way, and from a saftey standpoint, in an ideal world, there would be take fast and decisive actions when obvious wrong doing is brought to light. But that isn't how this situation went down.

On Friday, a user made the post claiming Leon was convicted of sexually assaulting a model. He included a link to the court report, but due to concern over the victim's privacy (and Leon's), that link was removed while the mod team and staff discussed the best way to handle.

Over the next several hours, more info started to trickle out, but none of it could be substantiated at that point. Then the link was re-inserted into the original post, and we were able to get our first clear picture as to exactly what was being alleged.

It wasn't until Saturday that Leon finally addressed the issue and confirmed that he was in fact the person in the report and did in fact plead guilty to sexual assault. HOWEVER, he also claimed that he was actually innocent of that crime and gave a handful of (terribly constructed and ultimately untrue) reasons as to why he chose to plead guilty to a crime he didn't commit.

People then began to poke holes in his story, and he continued to defend himself in subsequent posts, changing the story a bit, and making more claims to support his supposed innocence.

People continued to question his subsequent statements, and his ever-changing story continued to unravel throughout the day, until ultimately Saturday evening we got an admission, but one that was coupled with claims and assurances that several steps had been taken since the crime to make sure that something like it never happened again, including putting protocols in place to make sure the models felt safe.

People started to question those assurances, and over the course of the next few hours, it became clear that either no such protocols had actually been put in place, or the ones that had were completely unacceptable and ridiculous (like somehow he thought it was ok to not inform models that he was a convicted sex offender before working with them ). At this point, it was Sunday.

Now I don't know what was going on behind the scenes, and I don't know how many moving parts MM & Co. have to deal with on even just the backend side of removing the site's largest content producer across 7 different download and streaming stores, but, even if we are to assume that MM has no life outside of this website and spent his entire weekend on this issue (the former of which being impossible, the latter of which being quite likely), I still think it is remarkable that less than 24 hours after having (what I would consider) certainty of Leon's guilt, a stern but fair verdict was handed out and all of his stores are gone.

Like just the logistics of that to me are insanely impressive, not to mention the thought and consideration that had to have taken place behind the scenes for and with all of the affected parties involved.

But I do totally get where you're coming from, and I do think a lot of what you're saying is spot on.

I just think the overall process is a lot more complicated than we would like it to be, and also that having the discussion about it all (albeit one that included many ugly moments) is the only reason we were able to ultimately discover and then expel a convicted sex offender from our community.

I also think that there was, and is, a lot of learning and understanding that came from that discussion thread, and even though it came at the cost of a lot of pain and stress, this is a discussion forum, and I think it's purpose beyond helping us all jerk off, is to provide community, and opportunity for learning and understanding, through discussion.

There were many many times throughout the weekend where I thought about leaving here (and this fetish in general), but I'm really glad I stayed, and I'm really proud to be here, where we ultimately landed.

I also totally understand Penny's feelings, and totally support her decision to do what is best for her mental health.

Apologies. I was wrong on this.

However. It doesn't change the fact that he decided not to protect models first. Its about the victims. And in allowing the decision to community debate, he ignored the victims

Several things:
A. National ugly mugs, look at the website. Its a support place where models can get help. Why would you even assume she'd 'report' this whole website to them? They don't do website takedown. As you said you don't know what if is, so perhaps taking a moment to read the website before inciting people to riot against her may be a good idea.
B. Where did you even get this information? Because her talking to someone else about NUM I can't find anywhere publicly

Also, directing people specifically to her twitter will have just incited the masses to go send hate to her, and as such, her profile is now private.

Your actions have consequences here. And you seen to be overstepping. It's bordering on harassment and cruel. She was an admin here. You may not like that she has a different opinion to you about the safety of people, and the models who, without, there would be no content for people to download.

Woah! That was clearly not my intent. The same people who would have gone there were the same people she was already here talking to in this thread. This is Penny's thread.


I actually saw it in an inbox conversation between VAVAVIE and Penny after I got a flag about the identity of VAVAVIE. If someone raises any such a suspicion on any other user, I always run checks on inbox messages, spider IP addresses, and cross-check various logs to determine if a person is really someone else or defrauding our users in any way. As site owner, that's what I'm required to do for due diligence. All admins can see this flag activity on our backend.

I don't think the flag was raised because of his position on anything but rather due to the sudden burst of activity from an account that had been relatively dormant until now. That always gets flags. But VAVAVIE turned out to be completely genuine far as I could tell (and later we had some good inbox conversations).

Anyway this was on Sunday that I saw the link but I finally decided it might be important to let our members, and especially producers, know that UMD may possibly be probed by this agency or whatever they do. It does seem like Penny has it out for UMD now, so I thought it would be irresponsible for me to hold that back this information, even though I have no clue if Penny is actually doing anything with it.

I truly did not have an agenda of sending an angry mob to Penny's Twitter. The only people who would have seen the link are the folks reading her thread right here, and I don't consider them an angry mob.

And let me say this to Penny: Whatever you think of me, I'm not your mortal enemy. Though we're at odds right now, we're still on the same team, at least when it comes to knowing the importance of protecting people. I know all this is an ongoing trauma to you, and others too. I need to keep reminding myself of that. Take care of yourself.

I am a little confused as to why you felt the need to share information from inbox messages between members, about a "harassment site" that it's clear is anything but, but is a site to help people get support in *the exact sort of situations that have happened* if you were only checking to verify that the user was who they claimed to be? What does this add to the discussion that's "beneficial to us all"?

This does not feel very safe, honestly. This appears to be real harm you are actively choosing to do, whether this is your intent or not (and I do not believe it is, to be clear - I think you are just not aware of the hurt this is causing).

I'm not holding out much hope that this won't be dismissed as gaslighting again, or for people to claim I am simping or white knighting. Your actions here have caused harm, intentional or not.

It seemed like something that could potentially affect all of us, so I made the link public, and I thought about notifying other producers from the UK by email. I haven't done that and don't know if it's necessary. If I didn't make it public and something happened, that would have been a whole nother shitshow. I didn't share anything else about their conversation. I certainly didn't share whole screenshots of her private inbox messages like she did me. I know that some disagree with the decision, but I felt it was necessary and it wasn't intended to harm anyone.

Ok....look.....I have just one important question that no one in this thread has addressed:






So is Ariel really coming back or not?

:splat:. I keed!!!! I keed!!!!

Listen. Seriously. All one has to do is look at the time stamps of Messmaster's posts in this thread to know that he has been working around the clock on this dumpster fire over the last day or so, and that's all that we see that has been public. I've been coming to this site for almost a quarter of a century now, and I'm sure I'm far from the only one that will vouch for MM's ability to do what's right in the end. I would say that he handled it about the best he could, because it was pretty clear there really were no winners in this whole situation.

When it comes to sexual harassment, there never are.

Well, no, you don't *have* to, but if you choose not to do so then you can't blame other people for not understanding where you're coming from. It's pretty clear at this point that a lot of your strong emotional responses are rooted in these personal experiences that you're steadfastly not talking about. I believe that your emotions are real and that you have a right to feel what you feel, but I want to ask you again: how do you expect anyone (even including me) to change their mind based on information that you refuse to give them? In other words, I'm not saying that you're obligated to share or that anyone's going to force you to share, I'm just saying that you're kneecapping yourself by not sharing. It seems weird to me that you would continue to choose not to show your strongest card.


I mean, that sounds like he made a mistake and got caught. I'm not sure what else you expect. Regardless of what the military world is like, in the civilian world it's not cool to have a boner calendar on view in your work area. And I'm 100% sure that your friend's former company had a written policy about that, which he agreed to when he signed on to work for them. So it's puzzling to me that you're acting like he's a victim when he knew (or signed a document saying he knew) that he wasn't supposed to do that and then went and did it anyway. In that type of situation, what do you expect? Do you expect the investigation to conclude that he did not violate the policy that he did, in fact, violate? Do you expect him to get some kind of special treatment for some reason? I honestly don't understand what you think should have happened differently in this case.

I agree that the way the information was found was not great but lets use this example.
Many people on this site were just outraged, one of the reasons being that they were not instantly made aware of public information that they percieve as threatening to them (regardless of its aquisition).
Now think of every single person on this site that has now been put on a list for enabling sex offenders. If employers of those people found out before it would have been "damn this guys into some strange stuff but its none of my business" but now its "fuck this guy hes gone, kill it with fire zero tollerence". Sound familliar? Would you have been ok in a months time finding out that MM "covered up" public information that makes you being here more dangerous?

It seems strange to me how somebody who left here because they didnt feel safe does something like that to further enganger all the other people on this site who also dont feel safe.
Maybe she just didnt think about that because emotions are getting in the way or maybe she doesnt care because it doesnt effect her now shes gone so burn it down. Either way, perceptions can be dangerous so ill give her the benefit of the doubt.

How is a long discussion about this ignoring the victims? Seems like she was brought up quite a bit.

I don't see this at all. She's talking shit publically to 20,000 followers. I think the cat's out of the bag.

I *definitely* had to say something, but thanks to a helpful member, I am learning a lot about the organization in question and the work that they do, and I am taking the link down that I posted before. They're doing good things and we don't want to compromise their work. I'll post later.

The cat is certainly out of the bag that MM has publicly shared a sensitive piece of information he read in a private inbox conversation between users here.

I refer to the UMD Terms of Service regarding mod/staffs ability to read private messages that states (re any information seen in private messages):
"Divulging any of this information to anyone other than the owner of this site is a legal offence that we would be obliged to pursue".

I wonder if there are any oversight procedures in place at UMD that will investigate this breach of data protection, this "legal offence"?

Especially given it is now conceded that the discussion in question was especially sensitive and regarding victim support, not some paranoid 'Hitlist' warfare tactic.
I guess the 'carefully considered', slow and steady approach in deciding how to deal with Leon wasn't applied in this instance of reactionary rule breaching.

Nothing about any of this is a secret. There is no cat and bag. I discovered the link and made the decision to make it known to everyone what was going on. I shared no conversation but only the link itself, and later redacted that as I found it wasn't a good look to publish it, but I still would have alerted the community about it. I'm sorry, you're just not going to use my site to do something that potentially affects our members or models, and expect me to shut up about it. That's not how any of this works.

I also want to talk about how I access inbox information. I *am* the inboxes. I've been developing them since 1999. I eat sleep and breathe the databases that hold every notification, message, sales transaction, comment. UMD has to remember every single heart-click so they can be red the next time you view the page. I literally can't NOT see all data. UMD sends me inbox alerts all day that the mods can't even see, and because of that, plus general user suspicion inquiries, I have to surf in and out of these inboxes all day. I'm the only one who has this ability (well, and Messmistress), and no private conversations are ever shared with anyone publicly or privately. Anyone can ask me anything about our privacy policy. I'm the type of person that answers a yes/no question with a yes or no.

I/we know you have access to these things. And I'm very aware that there are times where accessing these things are necessary and help keep the community safe. But there's a very big distinction between accessing (and acting on what you find behind the scenes), and publicly sharing that in an inflammatory way.

I'm pointing out that sharing details of a private conversation is apparently a "legal offence", according to your own rules. There was no justification in this instance to share information incidentally uncovered, written by a person who wasn't subject to investigation themselves, and then framing it as an attack on the site itself and the wider communities producers, without even doing the due diligence of checking what the actual organisation in question does - and why it might be especially sensitive!

It's the exact opposite of the fair and considered approach that you used to justify the (to many) upsetting delay in acting over Leon's conviction. And directly inflamed Chris's already overheated, conspiratorial outlook on things - which in itself has clearly contributed to a lot of people's feeling that this is (or never was) a 'safe' or pleasant environment.

I'm so very, very sorry to see you so disappointed, hurt, and heart broken. This does feel like losing a family member to see you go. I completely understand and empathize with you on everything you're saying. For a survivor, this whole situation feels very unfair and not handled based on the needs of the victim. I can only imagine how much you feel betrayed. I know dealing with the trauma from sexual assault is devastating, and it's harder when you aren't getting the support you feel you need. The responses in that thread were very aggressive, abusive and toxic. It was a very triggering and very enraging experience to have that conversation and that did not feel like it helped anyone. I think it's unfortunate that this had to go this far and cost a valuable member of this community her sanity and sense of safety. You don't deserve to feel that way. And I will support you in every way I can.

I cannot tell you how to feel about any of this. But I feel Mess Master is not a bad person or in support of that behavior, but he seems inexperienced in how to deal with these situations. In my personal experience with my own conversation with him, he's not the most sensitive person to a woman who is upset and terrified from being triggered. He can come across as insensitive, unfortunately. But I have compassion for Mess Master, these things are not easy to deal with and there are many levels of how this is affecting more than just assault survivors. Mess Master is a business man, not a psychologist or a counselor. He is running a business as well as a community. He's not prepared to counsel us on how we feel. The news was shocking and not being able to have the time to process it and this being someone he's known for decades, it's hard to process this kind of information. Mess Master's heart and his intentions are good, I've encountered more good in him than bad.

I'm not trying to minimize or disregard your feelings, I want you to know you have every right to process this how you need to. It's hard not to make this a war of the sexes, but this is the unfortunate consequence of sexual assault. As a woman it's infuriating to have to have this kind of conversation with a man. A man who is in charge, who is an authority. We feel powerless and without any empathy for what it means to go through this experience. When it comes to sexual assault against a woman, talking to a man about it immediately becomes a fear, because all of us women experience how men immediately get defensive and act like we're overreacting, question our sanity or defend the man. Mess Master made mistakes communicating with me too, but he is not trying to be insensitive or uncaring, he really just has had no time to process any of this and has not been trained in the psychological affects that this kind of situation will have on a community of women sex workers. You're not the only one who asked him to shut that thread down when it became abusive, it did make us women feel unheard, unsupported and easy targets for abuse, I don't agree with how he handled that. But I think he is overwhelmed and under enormous pressure and no one can make the best decisions for everyone in these situations.

I don't know what kind of budget Mess Master is on, but I suggest to have a coach or a professional who can address these specific issues with more training and delicacy. It would do well to have a protocol in place for how this is handled in the future. Or at least have someone on hand who can handle the needs and concerns of the community when he's overwhelmed. Mess Master has done the best job he could possibly do, maybe he was taking on more than he could. Sometimes it helps to have someone on hand with more training and who has more time to answer questions, address concerns and be able to offer advice based on the response of the community.

At the end of all of this, I'm also feeling triggered from the responses of that thread. Women are tired of having the SAME. FUCKING. CONVERSATION. about our civil fucking rights. When a woman says her consent was violated, regardless of the situation or intentions, her consent was violated. No one has the right to argue against that or debate whether a person has the right to do what they want with someone else's body. My Body My Choice. ALWAYS. Always. I love you Penny, and I really hope you know that you are loved, respected, and supported.

Understood. The context of this thread is definitely inflammatory, and I know now that sharing it that way was ill-advised especially since I'm on defense here. I also understand that the organization is not one that's really supposed to just be publicly linked to at all. I am speaking with members of them right now and they are advising me.


I shared the link only, so it was not any legal offense, and I didn't share details of the conversation beyond the link itself and who it came from. But I did share the fact that it came from PennyBanks for the sake of full disclosure, as I originally said. If I ever see anything like a threat coming through, I will approach it with more tact, but I can't hide the basic facts from this community.

As for those arguments with Chris, I was too focused on the details on everything else to make decisions on that sub-argument, but today I will be cleaning up the thread. The arguments were not left up because I condone their existence and I regret having them up for so long. Each moderation move is heavily deliberated but it'll get done today.

Thanks to those from the organization who are helping me understand how to approach this, and I apologize to you if having the link up, especially in this context, brought any noise or harm to the work that you do. I will hopefully be using the service myself in any instance that I am contacted by someone in need.

Agreed. We keep going in the same circles, but I believe publicly having the conversation creates a bunch of unforeseen teachable moments for us all, especially with regards to respecting people and civil rights. As a black man, I definitely feel you on things not getting better... it's like ground hog day and it seems it's only getting worse. I cringe at thinking these threads will trigger past victims, but shutting them down seems to be the worse of the two options. Maybe there should be some defined middle ground.

MM - the link to the "harassment site" still appears several times in this thread, it appears to have only been edited out from one quote. Would you please be able to remove these as appropriate, now you have a better understanding of the purpose of the site?

I think this is the first time I've ever heard someone say anything like this about me, and it's unnerving to no end. Perhaps I'm moving too quickly and my response and came across cold at some point? I'll review all our past conversations and I'll be contacting you over inbox.

Yes, I'm still working on that. Going as quickly as I can.

Shit, I JUST realized that I called it a "harassment site" when I first mentioned it. I didn't mean that! I meant to call it an anti-harassment site. I didn't know much about it, but I at least knew that it was an advocacy type of thing, not an attack organization! Fuck me

Now I understand some of the reactions a little better. Sorry everybody

If you feel like you are being harassed, perhaps this a learning moment...and you can better understand/empathize with how some women feel in these threads?

I think we can all do better.

I do not feel harassed by anyone. But this entire thing is definitely a learning moment for me.

I'm glad this decision was made.

But some of the comments in various threads about sexual assault survivorsouch. Doesn't make for a pleasant environment.

I second this. Given site owners and admins unfortunately have to be somewhat neutral and unbiased and the last few days have shown there is absolutely no shortage of insecure, buzzword spewing victim blaming misogynistic little men who are willing to go against victims and people emotionally affected and belittle/diminish their experiences and thoughts, I do think it would be good to have someone whose role is simply to support/advocate for/be an ear for victims of assault, harassment and triggering. As you say, MM isn't a therapist and it's been voiced maybe dealing with hurt people isn't his strength (which is fine, he is a site owner after all, I don't envy the position he's in, and I certainly don't think I could do it any better). But it probably would be worthwhile to have someone here who people that have been affected by assault, allegations or just sad, creepy, thirsty DM lurkers can turn to. Whether that's one of the women mods or an approachable, respected member of the community I'm not sure, just someone that is perhaps somewhat equipped be it through skills or experience, and they can relay any important stuff to MM, and there's a chance that the amount of women who either have left or expressed thoughts or wants to leave will go down to less than 'more than we care to count.'

Locking this one also so we can start to get some closure