In full disclosure, I want to mention Penny's Twitter. She's not responding here anymore but seems to have things to say there: [link to Penny's Twitter removed--cutting ties and disassociating. -MM]

Also, I think she has reported UMD to a harassment site at [site URL removed, and it's not a harassment site. I actually meant to say anti-harassment site! -MM]. I don't really know what that is but apparently we are now on their list, and Penny is organizing something against us through there. That's fine because we have nothing to hide, and we are very used to scrutiny. The more the merrier baby.

Hopefully the level of vile behavior she got here from a certain subset isin't now happening on twitter.

Penny still hasn't deleted her UMD account, and the floor is 100% open for her to come talk to us if she wants to. Her concern is for the community and, well, the community is here. I'm here. You're here Dalamar666. We all here.

That is fine, this is standard SOP for the twitter extremist and she's obviously one of them. I've seen this type of behavior in my non-WAM life countless of times.

I hate to bring this up again:

"Also, legal factors aside, I would caution Leon from apologizing to the mob [this is not directed at any one person, but "the mob" in general]. The cancel culture people are NOT interested in your confession. All they want is to DESTROY you. These people do not believe in forgiveness or redemption, they just want to see you suffer and die. If you are really innocent, do not bend the knee. Once you bend the knee, they will just capitalize on that and attack you even more."

Don't forget that MM ruled very favorably with regards to Penny's faction (for the lack of better terms).

I respect the hell out of you for running this website for as long as you have. I think you generally do an excellent job managing this place and its various personalities. I would never want to do it, so I'm thankful that you do.

I can understand why you might be frustrated at Penny for some of the things she is implying about you and your motives for handling the situation the way you did. People like Penny can definitely come across as annoying - it feels like they make every situation about themselves and come off like they are more interested in drama for drama's sake then actual progress on whatever underlying issue is causing said drama. It feels like it is most important that they're centre stage and they're the most visible victim, no matter who or what may actually be involved in the situation at hand.

Penny has chosen to disengage from the UMD. And while I am not saying this is your true motive, calling attention to her Twitter at this point, along with the comment about her reporting UMD, reads like you're tacitly encouraging people to go harass her. I don't think that's what you meant - I think you saw her sharing details of private conversations you had with her, and figured everyone should be informed - but it isn't the best look.

I believe Penny when she says she is a sexual assault victim, and I can understand why this episode would be frustrating and emotionally taxing for her, and for other assault victims who happen to be members of our community.

I fully, one-hundred percent believe that Leon sexually assaulted the model in question by grabbing her breast without consent. Leon can no longer be welcomed in the community for that reason alone. Sexual assault is sexual assault. To someone who has been assaulted, calling it "grabbing a tit" in the same sentence where you mention serial rape (as opposite ends of a vast spectrum) minimizes the pain and trauma that the person may have felt. This gets said a lot, but words do matter. In this case, our words signal to all members of our community that we understand the gravity of certain actions and their negative impacts on the people who have been the unwilling targets of them. Penny isn't just splitting hairs here. A large portion of this site's population of women consists of sex workers. Sex workers have between a 45-75% chance of being sexually assaulted in the course of their work. We should not minimize the gravity of what has happened, even unintentionally.

For all we know, this is an isolated incident that Leon considers to be the biggest mistake of his life, but the consequences still need to be the same. Leon is a convicted sex offender. This isn't a he-said, she-said situation. The fact that this got to the point where he accepted a plea deal means that the crown felt good about its case after reviewing the available evidence. Leon preyed on the vulnerability of someone who trusted him to be a professional. He should never be allowed to do so again. You obviously can't control what Leon does outside of UMD, but you can control his ability to monetize this site's community directly. Allowing him to remain would send a certain message to those of our community that have experienced sexual assault.

I understand why you wanted to keep the discussion open. You have always prided yourself on operating the UMD transparently and making sure you explain every major decision. In this case, I think the community would largely be behind you saying, "news of Leon's conviction came to light, and for that reason, he has been banned and his stores have been removed." Leon's offense is egregious enough where I think this would be warranted. There is a time and a place for community engagement and discussion, but in this case, allowing the discussion to go on for as long as it did before making a clear and unambiguous statement about UMD's position on the core matter - that Leon sexually assaulted one of his models - contributed to the viewpoint that UMD is tolerant of such people being in the community. I'm sure that you disagree with this view.

You seem like someone who is receptive to feedback, and I hope this doesn't come across as harsh. I appreciate everything you and the team does for this website and community.

She screen-shot private messages that were between me and her and posted it to her public Twitter. I have no problem with it BTW. But that usually means you want as many people to see it as possible. I was deliberately not hiding from accusations she was making. That's why I linked to it with that note.

The community has been pretty evenly divided, with many people taking her side. Linking to her Twitter was not meant to send a mob or encourage harassment.

If it was not meant to send or encourage a mob, why put the hey guys that hate Penny, I think that she is trying to get the site you have been defending shut down. Here is her twitter talking bad about me.

This is not helping anything. Can yall please stop this?

But I thought you agreed with us.

Chris, if Penny's OP sounded like a condemnation, that's only because that's probably what it was intended to be. I will withhold judgement on MM's approach, and I'll not speculate on his motivations or personal inclinations, but Penny was absolutely right in claiming that the way it was handled caused harm to the community. Leaving the original thread open for "discussion" gave you and your ilk a platform to jump in and drag the whole thing down with misogyny, victim-blaming, derailing, and bad-faith arguing. You are literally a living example of the problem, here.

If there are people who still sound angry about this, it's only because they are, and they should be. Your anti-contributions to all this have made damned sure that we can't ever go back to pretending to be a nice, friendly community. Because it isn't anymore, and maybe it never really was. Your continued presence here is a constant reminder that victims ARE NOT SAFE here. If this happens again - and it probably will - you or someone like you will inevitably shit it up again with attempts to protect abusers and criminals by re-victimizing the people who have already been hurt. We can't forget that. We WON'T forget that, because it shouldn't be forgotten. We have to protect our own. From you.

This is not at all what was said. She links to her Twitter from her own UMD profile for all of us to visit. https://umd.net/pennybanks It's where she is expressing her unfiltered views on this site and me especially. There are as many people here demonizing me as supporting me, and I don't care... they can all see what she is saying. She won't post here, but I still feel she should be heard.

I quoted what I agreed on.

I will just say I think it was in poor taste MM.

I appreciate where you're coming from, and please don't take this as anything personal, but please do not police content just because you don't understand or agree with the appeal like quicksand, bondage, power play, breathplay, etc. A lot of women enjoy those things too (both giving and receiving) and it's not women-hating to be into things like bdsm, edge play, and predicament play.

Mastercard already limits what we can do because of their infantilizing policies regarding consensual, legal content already and I'd hate to have to wade through more of that as I'm sure many others would too. I also love gags, bondage, and other fucked up shit in a consensual context or just as a fantasy, and I def don't hate myself.

As has been illustrated with this case regarding Leon, it's not the content being filmed, it's the actions of those filming it. Things like this can happen on any set or any workplace. I just don't think scrutinizing content from already marginalized expressions of sexuality are the way to prevent it.

I don't get it. She's linking her Twitter to UMD. I'm linking UMD to her Twitter. *She* linked her UMD to her Twitter.

She knows everything about how things are run here as she's seen all our internal notes for years. I still respect her cause because she's a spearhead for women's rights. That's why I made her a mod. Yet I feel she is being disingenuous with what's being said over there. I obviously have a love / hate relationship with Penny, and I think it's important for people to see what she's saying, for better or for worse.

Sure, but her having a passive link to her Twitter in her UMD bio is not the same thing as you making a post in an emotionally charged thread linking to said Twitter, while also accusing her of planning something against UMD. Even with the best of intentions, you have to consider the possibility that such a post might have unintended consequences, like inciting a mob of angry UMD members to go and start a much more public drama with her over on Twitter.

As a person, you didn't do anything wrong. As the site owner, it's in your best interest especially to de-escalate potential conflicts, and I think you linking to her Twitter in this specific context had the opposite effect.

I don't care if you don't like being lectured to or condemned. You have to deal with it, since you're the the biggest source of the current problem. Yes, I'd say you've managed to make yourself even worse than Leon in this case by corrupting everything around you with your hostility toward people who HAVE NOT EARNED IT. You've taken a bad situation and done everything you can to make it exponentially worse.

Not only that, but you keep falling back on the same, absolutely awful non-arguments.

- "Bring proof." Done and done. VAVAVIE brought receipts - their accusation can be backed up by publicly-available sources. Penny brought receipts (https://twitter.com/PennyBanksWAM/status/1584683684610727937 - I figure posting the link here can't do any more harm than MM's link upthread). Just because you don't like the proof doesn't mean it's not there. It just means you're bad for these forums.

- "Witch hunt." Once again, textbook bad faith argument. Go after the people bringing up problems so you don't have to deal with the problems themselves.

- "Beyond a reasonable doubt." Well, is this a court of law or isn't it? What standard are we working with, here? Oh, I forgot - it's a standard you don't have to be bothered with, but that no one else can live up to.

OK, that's right about the line, there. I've tried reporting. I've tried behind-the-scenes explanations for why lchris001 is dangerous to the community. I and others have stated over and over again that the nonsense I'm having to respond to here should NOT be tolerated. So I have no other choice but to do this openly. MessMaster, this is a public call for you to take action against lchris001. He is a poison in the heart of your forums. He is proof, as long as he is allowed a continued, unmoderated presence here, that UMD is not safe for victims of sexual abuse. He has no interest in facts or logic, but only his ability to be a petty bully and abuse enabler. He has made it abundantly clear that he has no interest in the health of the community, but indeed has pushed it ever closer to ripping itself apart.

Show Penny that she's judged UMD too hastily. MM, I told you in a DM that my only priority in this matter was the continued safety of the victims of crime and abuse. You told me that you loved the post in which I made that clear, in my rejection of attempts to attack and undermine a whistleblower whose accusation is as verifiable as it gets. Now we have before us someone who is doing that and far, far worse.

This is the time to prove it.

But is it the same thing as her repeatedly making emotionally charged threads on her Twitter about UMD?


Absolutely, but to me, this crowd has been evenly divided. If anything an accused person would want to bury the link to some site that's all about reporting them. I'm all for it to be publicized. I had no reason to think somebody would go over there and harass Penny. I would expect agreements and disagreements just like on here. And for the link I believe she's reporting us on, some people might even join that, I don't know and I don't mind.


I linked to it knowing full well that 50% of people would be with her, and 50% would disagree. This is her thread. If I'm wrong I'll say I'm wrong, but I fully defend my decision to link to her Twitter.

Against my better judgement, I am going to stick my 2 pence on here.

I thought politics in the UK was in disarray, but this community is currently doing its best to blow that out of the water. I've been passive on here for years but active the last few months, and the reaction on here has done more to encourage me to leave the community than the act itself.

There are bad apples or people who make mistakes in every community. Cutting that out quickly and appropriately is positive. I've seen the likely collateral to this and it is unfortunate, but I suspect a heavy hand is better than a weak one. I do think a mistake was made here by MM by opening the conversation for a convicted sex offender to put their side across. They should have been expelled, then the thread unlocked in my opinion. They had the opportunity in a court of law to put their side across and waived that opportunity (as I understand it). Sure, open up the conversation for the community to discuss whats happened, but I don't agree with the reason given for re-opening the thread. I'm not trying to haul MM over the coals, I'd hate to be in the position of single handedly trying to police a social network, but without constructive criticism how does this community grow?

I we can't unite behind "models (generally women) should be kept safe on UMD" then what can we unite behind? Can UMD achieve that single handedly, no, it's a community after all, as far as I understand it we all have a part to play. And of all the points Penny makes (other than we should be thinking of the victim here over anyone else), where is this site left if all of the content creators vote with their feet? I'd guess cash strapped and quite boring but what do I know? Yes, a representative from UMD isn't present at every private shot, but this should still be the first thought and any little that could be done should be considered. I'm not pretending I have all the answers, because I don't, this is difficult.

So we can all keep bickering, point scoring and scare off all of the content creators and new talent or we can try to take stock, learn and grow from here. So are we going to unite and survive or divide and die? Because as someone who hasn't been active here long it really does seem like crunch time. And it would be a massive shame to have only just found my feet here then feel like cutting all ties is the best move.

Just following your lead on the personal attacks. You haven't posted anything at all except personal attacks and taunts since you first started in on this issue. If the only way forward I have is by pointing out just how bad you are for and to the people around you, then that's what I'll do, while hoping that eventually this site's administration will see reason and deal with you appropriately.

No, mm, in taking no action when faced with cold hard facts: you knew about a convicted sex offender and this is where he works and operates, you supported him and let everyone else be at risk.
There's nothing more to say on that.
It shouldn't take women to collectively jump on here to tell you why keeping him here is a bad thing. It shouldn't take 'community discussion, because the legal system convicted him and made that decision to give him the sentence they did.
In taking no action, you told the women here that its okay to be a sex offender on UMD, and we don't matter.

This is not going anywhere, so I will propose a truce. I believe you receive a PM from MM to knock it off. So let's part ways here.

Stop complaining about politics when generally people aren't doing that...you're the one who keeps bringing up being red. No one cares if you voted for Trump that has nothing to do with the subject.

That article may have said what you said, but let's not forget that he also pled guilty and then changed his story a few times on here. Maaaybe I might have bought his bullshit but not when I started seeing his story start flipping.

Just wanted to note that the thread was left open so the whole community could have a voice. I didn't do it so that a "convicted sex offender could put their side across." That said, leaving the thread open has given him a rope, and he has done with it what he would. The community was able to watch, and now we have a better consensus than if I would have just shut the whole thing down. We are now better prepared to deal with such a situation in the future. And you know that if I had locked that thread, the entire community would have accused me of covering up for Leon!

If I can bring a little perspective. This news has blindsided us all. But jeez it's only been days. The incident was years ago. I've been doing more than 16 hours a day dealing with this all weekend, and a decision has been made. I think I acted as quickly as I could while trying to do everything right.

There was action definitely taken. There were two or three days where I was talking constantly with people on the backend. I can't count how many of you I've been responding to, it's a blur. I heard so many sides of the story and it's how I really learned what was going on. That's action that you don't see, but I was also updating the threads to let people know I was on it. Sorry if you didn't see those replies



Please don't take the delay as me advocating for Leon, or me having to be "convinced." Most of it was figuring out who else was going to be affected, who else had ties with him, how to wrap up business affairs, what would happen with policy, and how to communicate the situation to the community in a way that people wouldn't pick it apart and it wouldn't set bad precedent. It's no small feat to try to get this right while inbox messages are coming through faster than you can respond to them. There is a lot to disassociating with the largest wam producer ever and their many moving parts. I apologize that it took as long as it did, and from what we all learned, this can be handled much more quickly if it happens again. That's part of what the discussion was about.

Yeah you would have been screwed no matter what...and you would definitely have been accused of covering for him. I can't see what's the big deal about just taking a few days and trying to get it right instead of quick. Everything was public so people could see what's up.

Yep, fully understand and agree. Like I said, I'm not trying to haul you over the coals. I'm just adding my perspective and what affect it may be having on relatively junior members of the community (although I can truily only offer my own opinions). What's unfolded has kept me up all night (6.30am UK currently) thinking about what to do on this issue. You'll be overwhelmed with information currently, and my comment was intended to be constructive criticism and a genuine view of what's going on in my head.

I can see the "let them talk themselves into a corner" argument, and the "you've cancelled him" counter argument so you're never going to win in everyone's eyes. Was just meant to be a consideration for next time around when this happens again in (2, 5, 10, 25) years. The unlock message said something about giving them a chance to put their side across, but it was probably written hastily without expecting this level of scrutiny.

I had hoped the take away from my rambling was "can we stop bickering and work this out together".

It sounds like you believe MM knew of this before the rest of us did. I don't believe that is the case. I feel like he has been blindsided by a story he was kept in the dark about and has been trying to deal with the fall out and consequences. I don't envy him being put in this situation but he has been working on dealing with it and attempting to update us as he did. He took action and by no means allowed Leon to continue here.

He's right about Depp and Heard, will take you two seconds to Google.

A small reply from a group host and site admin:

I know everyone is tired and I know my post will fall upon deaf ears, but I feel that everyone should chip in on this discussion.

First off, I wouldn't get upset at MM for the seemingly delayed response time. This site really is a one man show; and most, if not all the decision making is up to him. In the end regarding the situation the right call was made in my opinion and that should be celebrated.

Second, please stop with the fighting in the chat. You know who you are.

Finally, I was at first very skeptical about not locking the thread, however it actually seems like it was the best move in the end as the statements made by those accused certainly worked as the nail in the coffin for their actions. More than just one user was exposed as accomplices and it was really a shocking story to see unfold. The court of public opinion is not in favor of those who are on the receiving end.

Remember that UMD is a commercial site and forum. With this, opinions can't be codified. In the past I've certainly had my bouts with users over politics or other issues.

In this situation there was a separation of right and wrong. In the end the decision was made and I think it was the right one. Bad opinions shouldn't be deplatformed immediately, slight amount of skepticism should be drawn in anything. Following this debacle I really see how right and wrong are truly separated in the eyes if the public when it comes to arguing your case.