Hi everyone,

I was thinking of getting into WAM production myself (specifically pies) and I was looking for some advice, particularly in terms of safety as well as legal things.

I guess the most important thing is, what are some safety precautions one would take when hiring a model? For both the model, as well as myself.

Assuming I'm hiring them via the internet, I'm just a stranger, and if I pay them in cash that's a potential liability, especially if I plan to film at home. I wonder if people have ways they initiate contact to increase safety and comfort for both parties.

Also, I think I've seen a bit of info on legal forms, but really I don't know what to look out for if say I plan to hire a model and then sell on line. What would they need to fill out?

LASTLY, if anyone knows any models around Los Angeles that have been great to work with, let me know!

Thanks for reading!!! Sorry if these questions seem too obvious.

There many producers and models who can guide you on the subject of safety for the models and legal forms (UMD messmaster have sample model release forms you can use) so I will let others give info on safety issues from the models perspective, because I prefer to give you some advice for YOUR safety from YOUR perspective when you hire unknown people (strangers) to do shoots with.

The number one rule is - never work "alone" and hire models to come to your home or meet at their venue or 3rd party venues like hotel rooms. Always work with "a crew", for your own safety...i.e. have a business partner or wam associates assist you as your crew. This is what Lenny and I have done for 20 years, i.e. we never worked "alone" and always had a large crew of 4-6 guys and other girls in attendance.

Let me tell you from my own experiences. Many models will show up with their boyfriends or minders and some of them have criminal backgrounds. I am not going to name names or give explicit details, but we have experienced 2 cases in recent years where the models and their boyfriends we encountered had unsavory criminal backgrounds that we did not know at the time we met them, and only found out about 3-4 months later. In the first case a girl we hired showed up at my ranch with her boyfriend, and he seemed a pleasant enough guy with me and we chatted all day during the shoots. It was only later I was sent a google link where somebody alerted me that this person had only just been released from prison for manslaughter, and this is not the kind of person I would want to encounter when I am doing my wam shoots.

The much more serious case occured to us in 2009 when we hired a model thru an agency and she showed up with her boyfriend, and the day shoot went just fine and the couple were pleasant enough with myself and my crew, so we had no concerns at all about them. But 3 months later I was sent links to a tv news report where this same couple had just been arrested for first degree murder and were in jail awaiting trial. They had attended a private video shoot where another fetish guy had hired then ON HIS OWN...and they went to his house and he was foolish enough to mention that he had a stash of cash in his house to pay the girl for some fetish video scenes, and once they saw he was alone in his house and had cash the girl stabbed him and her boyfriend beat him to death with a hammer. That couple were later convicted and are currently serving 40 year sentences for their crimes. Now...the really SCARY thing for us was, the date of the murder they committed, had occurred 2 weeks before we hired them and they came to our home, so when we saw them, as pleasant as they seemed to be with us, this was a couple who had already murdered another fetish producer and they were psychos on the lam.

So....why did these unsavory characters seem to be so pleasant with us and not try anything on with us. My feeling is that it was our LARGE crew and cast that we always have at our shoots...i.e. at least 4-5 male crew guys and several other girls, cos criminals like to target vulnerable people who are alone, and we always had way too many people present at our shoots.

So, that is the best advice I can give you....don't work alone and never meet with strangers or models you do not know. Hiring models thru a reputable modelling agency does not give you any security, because they do not do criminal background checks (cos we hired 2 murderers using a modelling agency). You are better off using google search to check up on the models you hire and it is better to hire an established wam model that is well known on the UMD forum cos finding models on Craig's list is a dangerous game to play.

The best thing is a) not to be on your own and have your own crew or team up with another wam fan and work together, and b) only hire models where you get a good reference on them from other wam producers who have worked with those same models.

MK

Wow, that is one hell of a story!

Also consider that if it's just you and a model, they could allege you had said/done just about anything during the course of the shoot. Working in a studio with the owner, camera man etc present means there are independent witnesses who can say you've been entirely professional throughout.

True..... this has not happened to me but it happened to another producer friend I know very well who did shoots on their own with a model and then that model tried to blackmail them for large sums of money (i.e. 5 grand) "or else" they would go to the police and claim that they have been "forced" to do a sex scene on camera that they had not consented to (and the model release would not protect you cos this girl we both worked was a storyteller and would say that she was forced to sign a model release under duress". So then it becomes a "he said, she said" situation....and basically the cops will always tend to believe what the girl is claiming and not you.

You should not place yourself in situations where it is only you and a model on your own.

Some models I have met were scam artists...i.e. one girl I and 3-4 other producers all worked with, tried to pull a scam where she would ask for thousands of dollars later on "or else" and claiming that she needed the money for an emergency hysterectomy operation. Luckily several of us producers knew this model and her propensity for pulling scams, and we would exchange stories of our dealings with her, so when she tried that hysterectomy scam on me I told her that she should apply to be featured in The Guinness Book of Records for being the only woman to have 3 uteruses because I knew of 2 other producers who had already paid her in the past for that very same operation, so she seems to be growing new uteruses all the time....ha ha

Seriously though, I have known several dozen wam producers over the last 20 years and encountered 400-500 models, and I do not know any Wam producers I met who had been arrested and had criminal records, but I have lots of models who were later arrested and have criminal records (mostly for drugs and larceny).

So the best advice I can give is, get referrals from other wam producers who have worked with the models you want to hire, and preferably work with models who understand the wam culture and what the requirements are for a good wam scene, and preferably chat with wam models you see on this forum, cos they get it and respect the culture etc

To be fair, you not only have to be cautious when hiring models you do not know, the same thing is true with home improvement contractors as well, cos I recently tried out this new website Homeadvisors.com (which is like Angie's list) because I needed to find an honest and professional reliable plumber who lived in my area, and Homeadvisors.com "claim" in their tv commercials that they pre-screen all their contractors listed on their site as being "licensed and insured". So, I hired a plumber thru this website and I had problems with the work he did and did not do properly, so I went to the Florida State licensing board website to check on his licence, and it turns out this "cowboy" was actually totally unlicensed and an illegal contractor. I was going to post a negative review about him on the Homeadvisors site to warn others not to hire him and to scold Homeadvisors for not screening him as they claim to do, but then I did a google search on this plumbers name and founds lots of pics of his MUGSHOT and long rap sheet arrest records in my area, where he had numerous arrests for assaults and battery....and then I thought....mmm...this is not smart for me to post a negative review on his website profile, cos this guy knows where I live and he has a long rap sheet for violent crimes with the sheriffs office....and so as it was only a small plumbing job that he screwed up I decided to drop the matter cos I do not want that guy showing up on my doorstep in the future.

Anyway.....be careful, avoid Craig's list as a source for girls, and chat with other wam producers and existing wam models and get referrals from them.

MK

Hi!

First of all, I'm also not going to advise on the subject of model release et al, as that is covered extensively both here and across the Internet. Also as rules vary from pace to place, you need local advice on the subject.

Perhaps look to see if there is a local photography club or group you can join, as you don't have to tell them you also do WAM related stuff, and will gain you access to years of local experience. You just can't get that by reading stuff on the 'net.

I'll point out also that I've not actually done any WAM filming, though it is something I've looked at quite a bit over the years - all the pieces just haven't fallen into place yet.

What I can say is my day job involves dealing with and planning situations where both myself, the people I work with and the public are put at risk if things are not done right. We're talking anything from injury to serious loss of life. If anyone really wants the gory details and stories, I'll gladly share by PM, but not here . It's also worth me pointing out that through careful preparation and working to the agreed plan neither myself or a member of my team have ever been involved in so much as a close call - proof that this approach works.

Basically, the situations Wamtec mention above are good examples - the likelihood of this happening to you is low (though does statistically rise as you do more sessions). What this illustrates is that at all times with safety, you're planning for the worst possible scenario.

Your ultimate aim from this is for the whole experience to be safe and pleasant for all involved, and the first step is a basic risk assessment.

For each aspect of safety, or thing that could go wrong, think of the worst possible outcome. Then work back from there. Work up a list, and once complete review it all. You should include the nature of the risk, the effect or impact, and then what can be done to remove, reduce or respond to/mitigate.

The most obvious things to consider are:

Slips and trips - you're throwing lots of messy, slippery substances around. Ensure that you plan things carefully, so that no one is going to fall and injure themselves. Plan a path from where you're working to where you'll clean up.

You're working with liquids and electricity (lights, etc) in close proximity. Ensure you have your work area planned to consider this. Check your equipment is all in good order.

Also the working arrangement issues mentioned by Wamtec.

Something less obvious is chemical/allergen safety. Ensure your models declare any allergens before you shoot, and have a full, detailed MSDS for each substance. If they list something nonspecific on the MSDS (e.g. "coloring" or "pigment"), ask the supplier what exactly it is. If they don't know, get them to find out from their supplier, and chase it up the chain. If they refuse to, boycott them.

This sounds like an odd one, but I do actually know of an instance where someone was gunged as part of an event, and ended up in the ER under treatment for an allergic reaction. All was well in the end, but it serves as a reminder that you want to consider this so as to avoid being landed with your model's medical bills. (And just because you may be in a country with free state-provided healthcare, don't assume you're safe. Providers like the UK NHS can seek to cross-charge to the insurance held by the causing party in cases such as public events, workplace accidents and road traffic accidents).

The final thing to look at is insurance. You may or may not wish to look at some form of public liability insurance, or your venue may provide it. Check into the details of what is/isn't covered and make an informed judgement based on your risk assessment.

Also remember - insurers, studios and other parties may require you to prove a risk assessment was carried out, either as a matter of course, or if things go wrong.

For a shoot of the size you're planning, you may see the process as being excessive. And that's the thing - you need to make a judgement call for your specific situation.

The moral of the story is; plan and prepare in the hope you never use it!

Hope this helps!

John.

Hoo boy!! Now these are really quite the stories. Thank you wamtec and brown_apples for your extensive input, I really do appreciate it. These are definitely important perspectives and events to consider and I'm glad I asked.

Jeeeeeezus! Yall are making me want to hang up my wam hat! Agh!!!

Not really....you can still have lots of fun if you are a "hobbyist" and only want to do wam projects for fun, in which case you would be wise to stick to working with people you know, i.e. wives, girlfriends, other wam people and wam models, and avoid hiring strangers from places like Craig's list or escort agencies.

If you are an experienced professional producer/photoghrapher who is used to dealing with the underbelly of life that exists in the porn star modelling world, then you can handle whatever situations may arise.

All I am advising is that is if wam is only a fun hobby for you and you want to have lots of fun and avoid the pitfalls, try to avoid working alone and hiring strangers you don't know, and stick to projects you can do within your own circle of friends.

MK

But I don't have any friends.

Is this the gal wamtec is talking about?

http://murderpedia.org/female.L/l/logue-amanda.htm

If she's in any wam videos, I GOTTA see that.

Wow! I don't know how you found that, but it is amazing!

(I don't know if that's who MK was talking about, but she's a real piece of trash, isn't she?) She won't be making any more movies until she's about 70!

Norman

You guys are good at googling. Yeah...we did 7 or 8 scenes with her.

http://girlsallmessy.com/cgi/autogal.pl?vidnum=tws-155-0146

I merely mention this to highlight the fact that "you never know" what people that you might encounter when hiring models, cos this girl was very friendly and sociable with me and her boyfriend was amiable and chatted with me all day as well, and this was AFTER they had already committed a murder.

But this is not an isolated instance, cos over the years there have been lots of cases where models we shot ended up in prison later on. I have already had the midnight phonecall "hey, I am in jail cos I got busted for possession, can you come bail me out"....and my wife is OK with me being a "WAM Producer" but she does not want me to play the role of a social worker.

But you have to see the lighter side as well....i.e. one model we did quite a few shoots with in the past, was keen to get more fame on national tv, and she did, but not in the way she wanted, cos she ended up appearing in a segment for the tv show "America's Dumbest Criminals" cos she was caught on surveillance cameras stealing from a store....and the store camera footage went nationwide on CNN.

MK

Now I have to ask if it's turn-on knowing I'm wanking to a murderer ..... Er, I think it might me. Bad girl fetish!



OK, I need a link to this one, too!

And you named her "Sunny"! That in itself is pretty awesome.

That brunette is really hot, by the way. I wish you hadn't stopped doing mud videos.

I do not name the models. They pick their own stage names and we just use the stage names they have chosen for their modelling work.