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"Respect"
Love you, too
I saw a message from a member saying they avoid the forum because of the negative vibe toward women. That's not okay.
Let's remember to treat each other with respect and kindness--this is a space for everyone, and we all share responsibility for making it welcoming.
Let's remember to treat each other with respect and kindness--this is a space for everyone, and we all share responsibility for making it welcoming.
Unfortunately this is going to be an issue for as long as this forum operates. Because women are not allowed to call people out with receipts, it turns into a her word against his situation. Plus there is the whole culture of victim blaming that happens when serious issues on the site are discussed by women. It does not help that there is a let's wait and see what the community majority says with an issue and people are allowed to sit and drag women in posts for days before anything happens. By the time something does happen when it is done out in the open, most people have left the conversation.
wamman2018 said: I saw a message from a member saying they avoid the forum because of the negative vibe toward women. That's not okay.
Let's remember to treat each other with respect and kindness--this is a space for everyone, and we all share responsibility for making it welcoming.
Let's remember to treat each other with respect and kindness--this is a space for everyone, and we all share responsibility for making it welcoming.
Never going to happen. As long as there are hormonal men trying too hard and getting it wrong, as long as there are idiots that think unsolicited dick pics are fine, as long as there are misogynistic numpties that Schrodinger a woman (somehow she can be frigid and a slut at the same time) and finally, as long as there are those men who actually enjoy harassing women, there will never be peace on the internet.
Why? It's anonymous and there are no consequences to actions.
I have no answer I'm afraid, even putting settings no contact, or only if I contact first or women first only rule (like bumble), there are always ways round it (like the myriad of men that have female profiles on here, literally no way of knowing unless you meet up or video chat).
Let's remember to treat each other with respect and kindness--this is a space for everyone, and we all share responsibility for making it welcoming.
If only it was as simple as reminding people to behave themselves. The people that are the problem don't know that they are the problem. If they read your well-intentioned words they will think it's about other people, not them. There is a level of entitlement running through these people that cannot really be penetrated, as far as I can tell/ have experienced. The average male user here has very little idea how much a lot of his brethren absolutely stink the place out.
I think the forum is great and has positive vibes towards women. I see plenty of forum posts with kind replies and good vibes.
Lauren19 said:
Thank goodness for that. It's all been a silly mistake and everything is, in fact, perfect. Thanks for clarifying.
mFeelzGood said: I think the forum is great and has positive vibes towards women. I see plenty of forum posts with kind replies and good vibes.
Thank goodness for that. It's all been a silly mistake and everything is, in fact, perfect. Thanks for clarifying.
Lauren19 I understand from your sarcastic reply that you are trying to make a point.
I was just pointing out that the forum itself seems to have a lot of good vibes lately with the posts and replies in the main messy forum. I understand that in general, there has been issues with users on the forum and especially in DMs that are disrespectful. I wasn't trying to downplay the negative experience you had, but instead I was just trying to focus on something positive.
mFeelzGood said:
Lauren19 I understand from your sarcastic reply that you are trying to make a point.
I was just pointing out that the forum itself seems to have a lot of good vibes lately with the posts and replies in the main messy forum. I understand that in general, there has been issues with users on the forum and especially in DMs that are disrespectful. I wasn't trying to downplay the negative experience you had, but instead I was just trying to focus on something positive.
Lauren19 said:
Thank goodness for that. It's all been a silly mistake and everything is, in fact, perfect. Thanks for clarifying.
mFeelzGood said: I think the forum is great and has positive vibes towards women. I see plenty of forum posts with kind replies and good vibes.
Thank goodness for that. It's all been a silly mistake and everything is, in fact, perfect. Thanks for clarifying.
Lauren19 I understand from your sarcastic reply that you are trying to make a point.
I was just pointing out that the forum itself seems to have a lot of good vibes lately with the posts and replies in the main messy forum. I understand that in general, there has been issues with users on the forum and especially in DMs that are disrespectful. I wasn't trying to downplay the negative experience you had, but instead I was just trying to focus on something positive.
I feel you might be missing the point by the fact you are doubling down on your statement.
Maybe the point was a man replying about the shit women are subjected too is pointless.
Maybe a man saying "I can't see it so it doesn't happen", is offensive.
Maybe focussing on the positive here IS downplaying the negative experiences.
Maybe the shit people post to women is private so the forum vibes are not a fair comparison.
Maybe men should just shut the fuck up and listen to women instead of shutting them down, contradicting or calling them liars.
I think that would be more helpful to the problem.
Silver_sea said:
I feel you might be missing the point by the fact you are doubling down on your statement.
Maybe the point was a man replying about the shit women are subjected too is pointless.
Maybe a man saying "I can't see it so it doesn't happen", is offensive.
Maybe focussing on the positive here IS downplaying the negative experiences.
Maybe the shit people post to women is private so the forum vibes are not a fair comparison.
Maybe men should just shut the fuck up and listen to women instead of shutting them down, contradicting or calling them liars.
I think that would be more helpful to the problem.
mFeelzGood said:
Lauren19 I understand from your sarcastic reply that you are trying to make a point.
I was just pointing out that the forum itself seems to have a lot of good vibes lately with the posts and replies in the main messy forum. I understand that in general, there has been issues with users on the forum and especially in DMs that are disrespectful. I wasn't trying to downplay the negative experience you had, but instead I was just trying to focus on something positive.
Lauren19 said:
Thank goodness for that. It's all been a silly mistake and everything is, in fact, perfect. Thanks for clarifying.
mFeelzGood said: I think the forum is great and has positive vibes towards women. I see plenty of forum posts with kind replies and good vibes.
Thank goodness for that. It's all been a silly mistake and everything is, in fact, perfect. Thanks for clarifying.
Lauren19 I understand from your sarcastic reply that you are trying to make a point.
I was just pointing out that the forum itself seems to have a lot of good vibes lately with the posts and replies in the main messy forum. I understand that in general, there has been issues with users on the forum and especially in DMs that are disrespectful. I wasn't trying to downplay the negative experience you had, but instead I was just trying to focus on something positive.
I feel you might be missing the point by the fact you are doubling down on your statement.
Maybe the point was a man replying about the shit women are subjected too is pointless.
Maybe a man saying "I can't see it so it doesn't happen", is offensive.
Maybe focussing on the positive here IS downplaying the negative experiences.
Maybe the shit people post to women is private so the forum vibes are not a fair comparison.
Maybe men should just shut the fuck up and listen to women instead of shutting them down, contradicting or calling them liars.
I think that would be more helpful to the problem.
I understood the point Lauren19 was making with the sarcastic response which is why I replied to acknowledge her. I understand the points you are making. I understand the problem in general which the OP is referring to. I have read a lot of posts from women calling out this problem, and I have empathy. I have listened to a friend I met here and have been talking with for over 2 years who said she left umd because of this problem, and she would not return to umd to this day.
There is something I don't understand which is bugging me...
If I wrote a sentence like "As long as there are hormonal women..." or "The average female user...", I would feel like I am being misogynistic or sexist, and that would be wrong. But, somehow it is acceptable to make disrespectful or hateful comments when men are the subject...
I understand that your insults are directed to the problematic users and not all men.
(I also understand that your comment telling men to "shut the fuck up" was directed towards me)
It is good to talk about a problem, but this has been talked about over and over. It is counter productive because any lurking women seeing this post is going to get a bad impression that umd is full of misogyny. It would be better to focus on positivity and the improvements.
I appreciate that you're trying to engage in good faith and that you've listened to women who have spoken about their experiences here. That matters.
But I would like to address a couple of points you raised.
Talking about misogyny isn't the problem -- misogyny is.
Acknowledging an issue isn't "counter-productive." It' is necessary. When people call out sexism, harassment, or gender-based hostility, they are not doing it to shame all men. They are doing it because silence protects the status quo, and the status quo has historically favoured men at a woman's expense.
If people stop speaking up because it makes the community look bad, the problem doesn't go away, it just becomes harder to see.
Women do not leave spaces because someone pointed out misogyny. They leave because the misogyny exists in the first place and because they feel unsupported when they raise concerns.
Comparing statements about women to statements about men ignores power dynamics. Comments that generalise about women come from a long history of discrimination and real world consequences: lower pay, dismissal in professional spaces, safety risks, stereotypes about "hormones" being used to undermine credibility, etc.
Calling out harmful male behaviour isn't the same, because men as a group simply do not face systemic disadvantage from it.
No one here is saying ALL men. But if some men are behaving in ways that make women feel unsafe, unsupported, or unwelcome (and I from personal experience I can assure you this is happening) addressing that is not hate, it is holding people accountable.
If you want to be part of fixing the problem (which it sounds like you do!), some suggested steps would be:
Listening without immediately reframing the issue as being unfair to men
Supporting women speaking about their experiences, even when it is uncomfortable
Asking what you can do to make the space better instead of asking women to adjust their tone to protect men's feelings or the forum's reputation
Understanding that calling out harmful behaviour helps rather than harms a community's culture.
I personally would love for positive change on this platform but Progress requires honesty, not silence. Acknowledging a problem is the first step toward improvement not a threat to it.
But I would like to address a couple of points you raised.
Talking about misogyny isn't the problem -- misogyny is.
Acknowledging an issue isn't "counter-productive." It' is necessary. When people call out sexism, harassment, or gender-based hostility, they are not doing it to shame all men. They are doing it because silence protects the status quo, and the status quo has historically favoured men at a woman's expense.
If people stop speaking up because it makes the community look bad, the problem doesn't go away, it just becomes harder to see.
Women do not leave spaces because someone pointed out misogyny. They leave because the misogyny exists in the first place and because they feel unsupported when they raise concerns.
Comparing statements about women to statements about men ignores power dynamics. Comments that generalise about women come from a long history of discrimination and real world consequences: lower pay, dismissal in professional spaces, safety risks, stereotypes about "hormones" being used to undermine credibility, etc.
Calling out harmful male behaviour isn't the same, because men as a group simply do not face systemic disadvantage from it.
No one here is saying ALL men. But if some men are behaving in ways that make women feel unsafe, unsupported, or unwelcome (and I from personal experience I can assure you this is happening) addressing that is not hate, it is holding people accountable.
If you want to be part of fixing the problem (which it sounds like you do!), some suggested steps would be:
Listening without immediately reframing the issue as being unfair to men
Supporting women speaking about their experiences, even when it is uncomfortable
Asking what you can do to make the space better instead of asking women to adjust their tone to protect men's feelings or the forum's reputation
Understanding that calling out harmful behaviour helps rather than harms a community's culture.
I personally would love for positive change on this platform but Progress requires honesty, not silence. Acknowledging a problem is the first step toward improvement not a threat to it.
nickie said: I appreciate that you're trying to engage in good faith and that you've listened to women who have spoken about their experiences here. That matters.
But I would like to address a couple of points you raised.
Talking about misogyny isn't the problem -- misogyny is.
Acknowledging an issue isn't "counter-productive." It' is necessary. When people call out sexism, harassment, or gender-based hostility, they are not doing it to shame all men. They are doing it because silence protects the status quo, and the status quo has historically favoured men at a woman's expense.
If people stop speaking up because it makes the community look bad, the problem doesn't go away, it just becomes harder to see.
Women do not leave spaces because someone pointed out misogyny. They leave because the misogyny exists in the first place and because they feel unsupported when they raise concerns.
Comparing statements about women to statements about men ignores power dynamics. Comments that generalise about women come from a long history of discrimination and real world consequences: lower pay, dismissal in professional spaces, safety risks, stereotypes about "hormones" being used to undermine credibility, etc.
Calling out harmful male behaviour isn't the same, because men as a group simply do not face systemic disadvantage from it.
No one here is saying ALL men. But if some men are behaving in ways that make women feel unsafe, unsupported, or unwelcome (and I from personal experience I can assure you this is happening) addressing that is not hate, it is holding people accountable.
If you want to be part of fixing the problem (which it sounds like you do!), some suggested steps would be:
Listening without immediately reframing the issue as being unfair to men
Supporting women speaking about their experiences, even when it is uncomfortable
Asking what you can do to make the space better instead of asking women to adjust their tone to protect men's feelings or the forum's reputation
Understanding that calling out harmful behaviour helps rather than harms a community's culture.
I personally would love for positive change on this platform but Progress requires honesty, not silence. Acknowledging a problem is the first step toward improvement not a threat to it.
But I would like to address a couple of points you raised.
Talking about misogyny isn't the problem -- misogyny is.
Acknowledging an issue isn't "counter-productive." It' is necessary. When people call out sexism, harassment, or gender-based hostility, they are not doing it to shame all men. They are doing it because silence protects the status quo, and the status quo has historically favoured men at a woman's expense.
If people stop speaking up because it makes the community look bad, the problem doesn't go away, it just becomes harder to see.
Women do not leave spaces because someone pointed out misogyny. They leave because the misogyny exists in the first place and because they feel unsupported when they raise concerns.
Comparing statements about women to statements about men ignores power dynamics. Comments that generalise about women come from a long history of discrimination and real world consequences: lower pay, dismissal in professional spaces, safety risks, stereotypes about "hormones" being used to undermine credibility, etc.
Calling out harmful male behaviour isn't the same, because men as a group simply do not face systemic disadvantage from it.
No one here is saying ALL men. But if some men are behaving in ways that make women feel unsafe, unsupported, or unwelcome (and I from personal experience I can assure you this is happening) addressing that is not hate, it is holding people accountable.
If you want to be part of fixing the problem (which it sounds like you do!), some suggested steps would be:
Listening without immediately reframing the issue as being unfair to men
Supporting women speaking about their experiences, even when it is uncomfortable
Asking what you can do to make the space better instead of asking women to adjust their tone to protect men's feelings or the forum's reputation
Understanding that calling out harmful behaviour helps rather than harms a community's culture.
I personally would love for positive change on this platform but Progress requires honesty, not silence. Acknowledging a problem is the first step toward improvement not a threat to it.
Yeah, I was wrong about saying it is counter-productive.
Listening without immediately reframing the issue as being unfair to men
Agreed. Listening is most important.
(I did not mean to reframe this thread to talk about fairness to men.)
Supporting women speaking about their experiences, even when it is uncomfortable
Agreed. I do see some of this this. Here are two cases that I could remember and easily find:
https://umd.net/forums/rude-entitled-behavior
https://umd.net/forums/i-think-someone-is-trying-to-seek-a-puni
Asking what you can do to make the space better instead of asking women to adjust their tone to protect men's feelings or the forum's reputation
Agreed. I think a post titled "How can we make umd better for women" would be better than a post like "Why is umd so terrible for women".
(I hope my responses were not interpreted as requests to adjust tone to protect men's feeling.)
Understanding that calling out harmful behaviour helps rather than harms a community's culture.
Agreed. I have been seeing a few users calling out bad behavior. I have more opinions on this subject which I will omit for now.
I personally would love for positive change on this platform but Progress requires honesty, not silence. Acknowledging a problem is the first step toward improvement not a threat to it.
Agreed, and I will admit I was wrong to say we should not talk about it because it is counter productive. This thread felt unproductive from the start though.
I have one more thing to add unrelated to this reply. It is regarding my post:
mFeelzGood said: I think the forum is great and has positive vibes towards women. I see plenty of forum posts with kind replies and good vibes.
A forum post appears which contradicts my statement:
https://umd.net/forums/whatever-happened-to-the-head-shaving-sh
This post makes me feel terrible. Thinking about a woman doing wam modeling and being asked to shave her head for money just makes me sad. Imagine her going bald or with a wig to Thanksgiving with her family and seeing her families reaction. This just seems like a hurtful thing to do to a person.
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