I saw a message from a member saying they avoid the forum because of the negative vibe toward women. That's not okay.

Let's remember to treat each other with respect and kindness--this is a space for everyone, and we all share responsibility for making it welcoming.

Unfortunately this is going to be an issue for as long as this forum operates. Because women are not allowed to call people out with receipts, it turns into a her word against his situation. Plus there is the whole culture of victim blaming that happens when serious issues on the site are discussed by women. It does not help that there is a let's wait and see what the community majority says with an issue and people are allowed to sit and drag women in posts for days before anything happens. By the time something does happen when it is done out in the open, most people have left the conversation.

Never going to happen. As long as there are hormonal men trying too hard and getting it wrong, as long as there are idiots that think unsolicited dick pics are fine, as long as there are misogynistic numpties that Schrodinger a woman (somehow she can be frigid and a slut at the same time) and finally, as long as there are those men who actually enjoy harassing women, there will never be peace on the internet.

Why? It's anonymous and there are no consequences to actions.

I have no answer I'm afraid, even putting settings no contact, or only if I contact first or women first only rule (like bumble), there are always ways round it (like the myriad of men that have female profiles on here, literally no way of knowing unless you meet up or video chat).

If only it was as simple as reminding people to behave themselves. The people that are the problem don't know that they are the problem. If they read your well-intentioned words they will think it's about other people, not them. There is a level of entitlement running through these people that cannot really be penetrated, as far as I can tell/ have experienced. The average male user here has very little idea how much a lot of his brethren absolutely stink the place out.

I think the forum is great and has positive vibes towards women. I see plenty of forum posts with kind replies and good vibes.

Thank goodness for that. It's all been a silly mistake and everything is, in fact, perfect. Thanks for clarifying.

Lauren19 I understand from your sarcastic reply that you are trying to make a point.

I was just pointing out that the forum itself seems to have a lot of good vibes lately with the posts and replies in the main messy forum. I understand that in general, there has been issues with users on the forum and especially in DMs that are disrespectful. I wasn't trying to downplay the negative experience you had, but instead I was just trying to focus on something positive.

I feel you might be missing the point by the fact you are doubling down on your statement.

Maybe the point was a man replying about the shit women are subjected too is pointless.
Maybe a man saying "I can't see it so it doesn't happen", is offensive.
Maybe focussing on the positive here IS downplaying the negative experiences.
Maybe the shit people post to women is private so the forum vibes are not a fair comparison.

Maybe men should just shut the fuck up and listen to women instead of shutting them down, contradicting or calling them liars.
I think that would be more helpful to the problem.

I understood the point Lauren19 was making with the sarcastic response which is why I replied to acknowledge her. I understand the points you are making. I understand the problem in general which the OP is referring to. I have read a lot of posts from women calling out this problem, and I have empathy. I have listened to a friend I met here and have been talking with for over 2 years who said she left umd because of this problem, and she would not return to umd to this day.

There is something I don't understand which is bugging me...

If I wrote a sentence like "As long as there are hormonal women..." or "The average female user...", I would feel like I am being misogynistic or sexist, and that would be wrong. But, somehow it is acceptable to make disrespectful or hateful comments when men are the subject...

I understand that your insults are directed to the problematic users and not all men.

(I also understand that your comment telling men to "shut the fuck up" was directed towards me)

It is good to talk about a problem, but this has been talked about over and over. It is counter productive because any lurking women seeing this post is going to get a bad impression that umd is full of misogyny. It would be better to focus on positivity and the improvements.

I appreciate that you're trying to engage in good faith and that you've listened to women who have spoken about their experiences here. That matters.

But I would like to address a couple of points you raised.

Talking about misogyny isn't the problem -- misogyny is.

Acknowledging an issue isn't "counter-productive." It' is necessary. When people call out sexism, harassment, or gender-based hostility, they are not doing it to shame all men. They are doing it because silence protects the status quo, and the status quo has historically favoured men at a woman's expense.

If people stop speaking up because it makes the community look bad, the problem doesn't go away, it just becomes harder to see.

Women do not leave spaces because someone pointed out misogyny. They leave because the misogyny exists in the first place and because they feel unsupported when they raise concerns.

Comparing statements about women to statements about men ignores power dynamics. Comments that generalise about women come from a long history of discrimination and real world consequences: lower pay, dismissal in professional spaces, safety risks, stereotypes about "hormones" being used to undermine credibility, etc.

Calling out harmful male behaviour isn't the same, because men as a group simply do not face systemic disadvantage from it.

No one here is saying ALL men. But if some men are behaving in ways that make women feel unsafe, unsupported, or unwelcome (and I from personal experience I can assure you this is happening) addressing that is not hate, it is holding people accountable.

If you want to be part of fixing the problem (which it sounds like you do!), some suggested steps would be:

Listening without immediately reframing the issue as being unfair to men
Supporting women speaking about their experiences, even when it is uncomfortable
Asking what you can do to make the space better instead of asking women to adjust their tone to protect men's feelings or the forum's reputation
Understanding that calling out harmful behaviour helps rather than harms a community's culture.

I personally would love for positive change on this platform but Progress requires honesty, not silence. Acknowledging a problem is the first step toward improvement not a threat to it.

Yeah, I was wrong about saying it is counter-productive.


Agreed. Listening is most important.

(I did not mean to reframe this thread to talk about fairness to men.)


Agreed. I do see some of this this. Here are two cases that I could remember and easily find:

https://umd.net/forums/rude-entitled-behavior
https://umd.net/forums/i-think-someone-is-trying-to-seek-a-puni


Agreed. I think a post titled "How can we make umd better for women" would be better than a post like "Why is umd so terrible for women".

(I hope my responses were not interpreted as requests to adjust tone to protect men's feeling.)


Agreed. I have been seeing a few users calling out bad behavior. I have more opinions on this subject which I will omit for now.


Agreed, and I will admit I was wrong to say we should not talk about it because it is counter productive. This thread felt unproductive from the start though.


I have one more thing to add unrelated to this reply. It is regarding my post:


A forum post appears which contradicts my statement:

https://umd.net/forums/whatever-happened-to-the-head-shaving-sh

This post makes me feel terrible. Thinking about a woman doing wam modeling and being asked to shave her head for money just makes me sad. Imagine her going bald or with a wig to Thanksgiving with her family and seeing her families reaction. This just seems like a hurtful thing to do to a person.

You are making some pretty big assumptions here. The first assumption is that the model would be doing this against their will. I do not see Messygirl doing that. The second is that there is a sense of shame that goes with a woman shaving their head.

As someone in a relationship with a woman that has shaved her head, sometimes the whole thing, sometimes like a mohawk. Let me share what she told me about shaving her head. She said that for her she gets this feeling of something new, a feeling of change. She told me that for her, something like shaving your head can be freeing. That there is this feeling about it that she cannot describe that makes her feel good. To me, those reasons are more important than any stigma society puts on women.

To clarify, I am definitely not assuming that the model is doing it without consent. I said "asked to shave her head for money" and not "forced to shave her head against her will". Force shaving without consent is a crime. I do expect models are asked, and it is their choice.

I am assuming that most women would not want to have their head shaved. I understand some would be willing to do it and not have a problem with it. I think some would do it for money but would still experience shame or being shamed. I agree that not all women would experience shame, and I understand your example.

My assumptions don't matter. I feel like my opinion doesn't matter much either. What I am wondering is how does this head shaving post make women feel on umd? Does this you feel welcome? Does it feel like misogyny? Or does it not even matter?

The bit you are missing is that some women genuinely like having shaven heads. Yes, it's a statement, and a fairly "extreme" one by contemporary standards. But it's also some people's free will choice, not the result of pressure of money. Our stablehand Susie originally had short hair, she'd always fancied a full shave but wasn't sure she'd be able to carry it off. Then she did it more or less by accident one night, while shaving her undercut and accidentally went further than she meant to, so decided "sod it" and shaved herself completely - and absolutely loved her resulting look. If you look through her scenes in our store https://saturationhall.umd.net/downloads/model/susie you'll see she has various hairstyles including fully shaved - we don't release in shoot order so the shaven ones are scattered through her scenes.

The thread where someone is asking about Messygirl's proposed shaving shoot isn't liklely to put women off UMD, it's a polite request abouit a specific proposed event and the assumption would be that it's consensual and the model is happy to do it. Her body, her choice. And to assume someone's family would be opposed or shamed - if a model is happy to do things like head shaving then it's resonable to assume that her family are cool with her being somethihg of a punk, or that she's not fussed about such things - not everyone has a family to worry about, or one that they haven't chosen as opposed to being born into.

Two of the things many women have told me over the years that they find offputting in fetish spaces are: 1) Being treated like an object / pleaure puppet. Seen only as their sexual attraction and attractiveness, ignoring their persohood. Yes, it's reasonable to do that while enjoying a fetish product - but not when interacting in the real world (which includes forums and the like). 2) being bombarded by demands to perform for the male audience.

Several of the women who shoot with me have said they do that rather than running their own stores entirely because that puts a trusted male filter between them and the world at large. And the solution to this will only happen when us men as a class improve our behaviour towards those we find sexually attractive. Which is going to take generations and starts with better educating boys and young men to respect other people, especially women and other minorities.

I understand some women enjoy having their head shaved.

I would also be supportive of women that have their heads shaved due to health issues. I also am not saying women need to have long hair, and there are no strict standards to which women need to uphold to be considered beautiful.

I would never know what the model being booked for a head shaving scene is going through, but I can only make assumptions based on averages and assume the model does not genuinely like to have her head shaved.


For others, the thread being referred to is this: https://umd.net/forums/head-shaving-in-a-messygirl-shoot

From what I understand, Messygirl had contacted models and one was willing to do it. According to the last reply, this never happened because the model was not willing to go full bald.

I am wondering what people want to see from this. Do they want to see a depiction of a woman having her head shaved against her will, suffering, and crying? I realize a head shaving scene might not be meant to depict misogyny. It could be sadism or masochism which a lot of people like. If I understand history correctly, head shaving women has been used in the context of misogyny but so has other wam concepts like tar and feather. The difference is that head shaving leaves a mark, although temporary.

My comment about the family's reaction was influenced by this interview with a sex worker talking about how she is supporting her family with modeling money and her family doesn't know:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoeXpmVV-jE&t=946s

This video was originally posted here:
https://umd.net/forums/unfortunate-model-experience-conveyed-to

I have no idea what a model goes through and what it would be like to experience her family's reaction. I could only assume by putting myself in her shoes. Just because there are some models that shave their heads and their family might be cool with it does not mean this is true in most other cases.

There's the problem, you're making a massive assumption, seemingly with no evidence.


Why do you assume sufferinfg?

Think of WAM in general. Most people would not enjoy having their underwear filled with custard, they'd think it icky and unplesant, a weird and extreme form of punishment. And yet to those of us into WAM clothes filling it's a pleasurable thing that turns us on. I know several women who genuinely get off on getting messy, find it sexy and really enjoy it. Unsurprisingly, some of them have chosen to do WAM modelling as that way they get paid for having fun.


That's because of the anti-sex-worker stigma in society at large. In a truly enlightened society sex workers would be respected as highly skilled professionals, but we are very far from that kind of enlightenment.


It seems odd to be so fixated on the idea the reaction would be negative. Think of your own female friends - if one of them was to suddenly radically change her appearance, would your reaction be negative? Or would you instead be supportve and impressed in a good way? My reaction to Susie telling me she'd shaved her head was "Awesome - can't wait to see you, bet it looks amazing!" Likewise if someone I know gets a new tattoo or body modification. I guess it depends partly on what social circles you move on - I'm very much part of the alternative scene where extreme looks are enjoyed and encouraged - but celebrating individuality should be standard everywhere?

mFeelzGood, please do not take offense to this question. Did you grow up in a conservative and restrictive household? Do you know any women that have shaved their heads? I ask because you keep going back to how shameful it is, or how rejected their family would treat them. There is also a sense you still think it would be forced or something the model would not do on their own, that they might feel pressure because of the amount of money and what it might do for them and their family. Hair is a form of expression. I don't think that a shaved head gets the same response today as it did in the 50s. Real family is not going to care what your hair looks like, they are going to care that you are happy.

No, my household was liberal. I grew up being allowed to dye or have any hairstyle I wanted. My mother had buzzed her head in the 90s, and she had all sorts of alternative hair styles. So I grew up thinking it is normal, and I didn't get a sense of shame from it. I can relate to others that grew up in a conservative household though. I did have friends that had parents that were very restrictive.

Shaming someone because they shaved their head is wrong, but I would bet it still happens. You are probably right that it is less likely today than in the past. I think shaming can be indirect, subtle, and even inadvertent.

There is another level to shaming. If a model was asked by her family why did she shave her head, she might be keeping her work secret. So she would have to lie. Otherwise, maybe she tells her family about her work. So even if she does not get shamed for short hair, maybe her family shames her for doing modeling or sex work. I am not saying women should be shamed for modeling or sex work because I am a consumer of this, and I generally find this work to be acceptable.

I wasn't trying to say a model would be forced to do it, but I would bet that the scene would include acting to depict that it was forced such as being restrained to a chair.

I do have concerns that models would feel pressure to do it for money and have thoughts such as "I really don't want to shave my head but I need money to pay the bills and rent, and this is a good offer".

We all would like to think that having a shaved head or short hair would not affect the model's ability to find work, but I would be concerned it does have an impact. I have no idea what it is like to try and find work. I would guess a producer would not say "We don't want to book you because of your short hair", but I would guess there a possibility that they look for other models because of their preferences.

I am not trying to shame anyone or imply people should be shamed. I don't even want to kink shame the people who want to see a woman have her head shaved.

Agreed

I assumed that because Messygirl tends to product content that depicts suffering such as this hair removal scene:
https://umd.net/forums/booby-traps-with-zoey

I realize she is just acting.


I have had friends and coworkers with short hair. I don't know anyone that is bald or had hair loss due to chemotherapy. If my friend went from her current style to bald, I would be supportive. My reaction would be to smile, eye contact, greet, and listen to what she has to say. If she prompts about her new look, I would say "looks great". If she doesn't talk about her choice to shave, I would be a bit concerned. I typically do not compliment my friends appearance. All of my friends are married now.

(edited 11/11/2025 to remove most of my reply and only reply to the questions)

Can we bring this back around to the original topic this thread was started with instead of throwing around assumptions without any proof running to defend someone that did not need to be defended in the first place. Almost like a solution looking for a problem.

Sure, sounds good

The original topic is that women avoid the forum because of the negative vibe towards women. Here are some related topics to discuss:

* What are examples of things that cause negative vibes?
* How do we improve the forum or reduce the negative vibes?
* Are there other reasons why women avoid the forum?