I was recently alerted to this thread and situation. Coming on the heels of another very recent thread, where women shared some very upsetting experiences, it was really alarming to me. We've wrung our hands and skirted around this issue in this community many times, but I think it's a topic that deserves the eyes and attention of the forum.

So I want to ask you all honestly, how can we make the UMD safer for women?

I am extremely fortunate that experiences like these never happened to me in my 10+ years on UMD. I used to believe this was because I was somehow smarter, safer, and more assertive than others here, but I now realize it's purely been luck. Luck that I've not been harassed, stalked, intimidated, or manipulated; luck that I am now more aware that ever can turn on a dime. This is just a reality for women everywhere, as Justine very eloquently pointed out here, and in ways I feel most men can't even begin comprehend.

I have met some of the most truly lovely, interesting, kind, and thoughtful people through UMD, including my partner. These people are the reason I feel at home here, the reason I enjoy sharing my personal sessions, the reason I encourage other women to participate, and the reason I want this place to be better.

It is awful that a few bad people can ruin a good thing. But lately I feel there is a dark, anti-community spirit here that is difficult to ignore. In addition to this issue at hand, there is also the rise of rampant piracy that hurts our producers and the fact that amateur videos and pictures by beloved members of our community, likely shared in the spirit of community and never intended to be exposed outside of it, are being freely circulated on porn sites and other very mainstream platforms. And again, it's largely women who suffer the most in these situations. I myself have been alerted numerous times from friends here that pictures I've shared here have been reuploaded on other sites.

I find it awful that women in our community, most particularly female WAM fetishists who have been brave enough to share and participate, have so often only gotten punishment and harassment in return. What kind of place is this that women who should be rightful members of this community feel they must hide away in the shadows or put nothing on their profiles, lest they risk losing everything? I find it awful that I can't really figure out the upside of continuing to share my personal experiences and content given the potential consequences. And I think the community suffers immensely because of it.

I appreciate anyone who takes the time to read and consider this. I don't have the answers. Maybe some of you do. I think we owe it to the women amongst us.

I guess a starting point is never be afraid to report someone. Why anyone would go to the hassle of taking images and uploading them somewhere else beats me, considering there's a vast image depository here... Just thinking, the actions are essentially Revenge Porn, something that is part of UK law - not sure I should link to the UK Government's website from here, but it came up as the first match in a search for revenge porn. Of course the internet is rather complicated and crosses borders.

I'd like a block function where I don't have to explain why to anyone (the current system you can block but it asks you why)

Sometimes you just know even when someone in your inbox hasn't caused a problem yet that they will and you don't have the energy for it. They may currently be doing 'the nice guy' dance but having seen it a million times you know the abuse is round the corner for not replying to them within three milliseconds.

So what we do then not knowing where the block function is or feeling awkward about it is retreat from the site instead and potentially don't come back. You know that message or further harassment is waiting for you and have to gear yourself up for it.

This has been extremely rare for me and rarer still since it's now well known I'm not single and not currently doing sessions etc etc but I'm thinking for other women... other anyone in fact, site wide. Let them block to their hearts content. Whatever makes them feel better.

I don't mind if a block triggers a flag to then keep an eye on that person, it's just awkward explaining why. Ditch that bit.

This is something that has also concerned me for years and why I sometimes leave UMD for a period of time. If I am chatting to someone new I sadly tend to point out that they may get unwanted attention and to ignore it.

Its all about respect and how you react in other parts of your life. I don't have answers but respect is more important than ever in these darker days. It takes courage to share pics and I for one are very grateful to those women who do so.

I agree with this. Granting members the ability to individually set their own boundaries and tolerances. If someone steps over the line - as far as you're concerned, they're gone! No explanation required - and no repercussions. What happens to the member who's been blocked is entirely down to the way they behave generally with everyone. It's about feeling confident and comfortable that we don't have to concern ourselves with anyone we don't want to - for any reason.

Where there are open expressions and depictions of desire and sex, together with the potential for anonymity and impunity there were always - and always will be - predators and pests regardless of how well behaved the majority are.

In fact 'pests' are probably the worst for the victim to deal with. BLOCK! Gone! It's then for admin to decide what happens next.

New members should always stay on the site - the moment you leave and exchange 'outside' information like locations, private email and social media accounts you're potentially dangerously exposed. Be wary of trusting anyone trying to direct you away from it.

I feel like we also need to talk about how to not BE that creep, rather than only focussing on what the site infrastructure or women users can do to make things safer.
It's been interesting talking outside of here with women who also use this site - I've been surprised by how different their experiences are compared with mine as a man.

I was wondering about the block as it stops people from chatting with you, I assume it also stops messages? Does it stop them from being able to see your pics and profile?

Unfortunately, I think that's gone as far as it can without just preaching to the converted (and Gawd forbid virtue signalling!). Those few who should be listening are not and never will. I'm not in favour of just sanitising it for everyone or there would be nothing interesting left. But there needs to be an emergency slide into the safe area.

We are still all adults after all. And it's a sex site.

It would probably help if very important topics like this weren't moved into Off-Topic where hardly anyone will see them, for starters.

I make every effort to keep everyone safe at this site. But some problems are endemic to human nature, not something unique to UMD. Those people will always be around. I have no control over situations that build up somewhere else, only to finally boil over on-site, as was the situation with Missie. Whatever the understanding was between the two of them, it broke down and the dude threatened to publish her pictures off-site. I removed his account immediately, but I know of no TOS tweak, programming function, or public announcement that can prevent a situation like that.

What I mean is that harassment is not a problem that is endemic to this site itself. There is nothing unique to UMD that should make a person want to hurt another person any more than on any other site. If anything, this is the most polite, most introspective, most caring community I've ever encountered online. It has its warts but I don't think it's fair to blame the community or the site for the general shittiness of human nature. All we can do is work together to identify and eliminate the threats as soon as possible.

> I guess a starting point is never be afraid to report someone.

This is 100% true. For some reason, some people just do NOT flag things! But then they'll post a big complaint about it and then leave, making it seem like an issue the UMD failed to address properly. Everyone, please take 10 seconds to flag anything that makes you uncomfortable. It's really hard to address complaints that were never even made.

> I'd like a block function where I don't have to explain why to anyone (the current system you can block but it asks you why)

Your explanation gets added to my notes about that person, and I need them when I do my research to make sure they're not bothering anyone else. It's always confidential and the other party is not notified. I'm not forcing you to type anything in particular, just a short note that helps me to assess the threat level of the other person. If you felt strong enough to block them, then I certainly would like to know your thoughts at the time. It's harder to assess the situation otherwise.

> Sometimes you just know even when someone in your inbox hasn't caused a problem yet that they will and you don't have the energy for it.

Then block them and comment that you have a bad feeling about them. Sometimes your intuition is right, and because you (and others) blocked them and provided some info, I was able to see a pattern that maybe you could not. Sometimes they really are bothering someone else who also hadn't flagged them. So please don't avoid speaking up as it helps me do my job, and helps keep the community safer. THIS is a big part of the answer to a safe UMD.


For new female members, UMD defaults their inbox and chat to "friends only" and opts them out of the wam party, and turns off their love notifications. If they do turn chat back on, there is the option to block any user from chat. And of course for any problems, you should never hesitate to report the person.


The chat has its own block feature which only pertains to chatting. To report or block a user from inboxing you or commenting on your content, the link is at the bottom of every user profile.

The short answer to the original question is: Please don't hesitate to flag stuff!! This is our defense.

Messmaster

This suggestion may not be specifically about making UMD safer for women, but I think it would be a solid improvement to make the site/forums better equipped to address issues like this:

Perhaps a new forum category geared specifically towards making suggestions pertaining to site/community improvements would be an effective way for community members to express their ideas and concerns on topics like this. Currently there are forums dedicated to the W and the M of WAM, Store Owners, Archives, etc. But as far as I can tell, there is not open forum category specifically related towards community improvement or site improvement. The closest categories that I can see now are "Off-Topic" (where this thread is currently) and "Polls." And after seeing some of the suggestions (such as the one by CandyCustard) that are geared towards ways of improving the website functionality and how it can affect the community, I think creating a dedicated space for community suggestions and addressing issues such as this would be a helpful tool in achieving that goal. It could be a good way to encourage a sort of democratic process when people have a place to go to where they can address issues like this and they don't just get shuffled under the vague category of "Off-Topic."

Of course, if there is already a system in place that is similar or identical to what I suggested, then I apologize for failing to realize so.

Edit: I now realize I parroted something that DungeonMasterOne already said, which I wholeheartedly agree with, but just wanted to elaborate on it a little bit further. The bottom line is that subjects like this should have a more suitable category than simply "Off-Topic."

We have the UMD Development Group: https://umd.net/groups/group/umd-development

Oh, my apologies for not acknowledging this. I guess I haven't done enough exploring around the website to find this specifically. But I'm glad it exists!

Messmaster, I want to first be clear this wasn't intended as a dig at you. I addressed the community directly because I see it as a community issue, and I don't believe at all that it's incumbent solely on you to come up with the answers. In fact, my hope was that we would be able to look inwardly and put our heads together and address this as a community. Because even if they are less visible, women are and should be a valued and important part of this community. It should concern all of us if women feel unsafe here.

I have to say I feel a bit disappointed by your response and by the fact that the only logical place for this thread is in Off-Topic. I find it cold consolation to say that these are just problems of human nature and can't be avoided either on the site or in the community. And it feels like a slap in the face to suggest it's unfair to seek accountability or to ask both to do better.

I wholeheartedly agree that this community at its best is kind and supportive and creative and lovely and certainly better than most. I can personally attest to that; it is incredibly close to my heart.

But there are also extremely serious and specific problems here regarding the treatment of women that continue to go unresolved. They may not be endemic, but I also don't think it follows that the UMD and the WAM community bear no responsibility.

The universally bad experience of women here is a pattern we are all so well aware of that it's actually a running joke. Everyone in this thread knows it's a problem. This is nothing new, or undocumented, or undiscussed. This is not just a few random incidents. And yet, we watch it forever repeating itself and shrug. To continue to hear the "nothing we can do" attitude is utterly exhausting as a woman.

How many times do terrible things happen to male users by comparison? Does no one wonder why we can't keep our female users? Is no one alarmed by the fact that so many women have left the community through very bad circumstances? Do we really believe WAM is a fetish is only experienced by men or could there be some other reason why there are almost no female fetishists who regularly participate here? Do we actually care?

The flag system is certainly a useful tool. But if it's our primary defense and it's for whatever reason not be utilized by vulnerable members, then it's an ineffective solution to this problem. I don't say that to be an asshole and again, I don't think this is only your problem to solve, MM. My point is, coming from a place of absolute love and protectiveness of this community, we need to figure out how to show the women of this community that we are committed to doing better and don't want to keep failing them. How can we accomplish this?

Missie was a longtime user and genuine fetishist who shared her content for free and out of love. So are many of the women on the other thread and others who have expressed similar frustration or exited over the years. How are we not more upset about the loss of these types of contributors? Do we not consider them our own? If the attitude of the site is that it's not a problem and nothing more needs to be done, you will certainly lose this female member and I guarantee many others.

Sorry MM but this is absolutely the wrong answer. A potentially vulnerable user has stated that they need a facility, this is not something be be casually dismissed. Being forced to give an explanation when all you want to do is block someone who may well be causing you mental trauma is fundamentally wrong - ask anyone who's ever worked with victims of abuse or domestic violence. Forcing someone to give an explanation when they may well be in floods of tears and shaking in fear is wrong. Seriously. Many people faced with that will just delete their accounts and never come back.

As to the record keeping issue, surely just the data that someone has blocked someone else is all you need - if only the one person ever does it, or one every six years, then it's probably just down to not liking their politics or style of wam or whatever. But if half a dozen users with something in common, particularly if that's "being female", all do it in a short period, that should be enough to flag that someone is a potential problem, even without any actual reasons being given?

Hope this doesn't come over too heavy, it's not meant to, but as someone who's both a lifelong feminist and has multiple female friends who've all been victims of attacks and abuse by evil men in real life, this is a subject that's close to my heart.

I do get a bit defensive when the community or lack of effort is blamed for the inevitable occasional jerk who does get through and does this. I sit here a all day all month all year all decade, dealing with flags and protecting my users. I think I'd know if it there was a huge epidemic going on.


I don't know why people feel that Off-topic is a downgrade, or a tacit admission that a topic is not worthy. This is a forum too. It's a place where serious discussion can happen, and leave the wam forums be about wam. It's even in the TOS that you should not put a non-wam post into a wam forum just because that forum gets more traffic. On here we can have long-form debates, and the auto-close time limit is longer. I've always put posts here like this one, including very serious ones. It's where it belongs. I think I'll rename this forum to something else.


Then it's on us to identify what these problems actually are, and to come up with actionable policies to work to ward the goal. We all want the same thing--to be not only safe, but comfortable. We all have to work at this and I'm ready to update any policy or build any tool necessary.


Exactly, this happens all over the world, not just on social media, and not just on UMD. We are battling the nature of society, not just the wam community. Yet it's something the community must deal with, and deal with it we can!


UMD is nearly 50% female. It's not accurate to say we can't keep them, and there has never been this huge exodus that people occasionally talk about. But it is horrible to see anyone leave because they have been threatened. It does happen a couple of times a year. Still far too much! But it's not like women are leaving the site in droves so I think we should keep perspective. The women here are stronger than that, but I wish there was more flagging going on.


It is open to all users. Why would it not be available for vulnerable members? Because I ask for a note about what happened so that I can understand the situation and follow up on it? There is nothing stopping anyone from flagging (even if you're not logged in!). The note is now optional by the way if you are blocking someone.


Again, I am not forcing you to write anything specific. You could have written "I don't want to say anything further" and that would be fine. I don't know why it's being thought of as a cross-examination or a witness deposition. I have made that field optional, but it remains there and your'e not gonna make me remove it!


That data is extremely helpful in identifying some of the people who have a more subtle, nuanced, insidious way of causing problems. But sometimes, as in the case with Missie, it happens suddenly, without warning. Instead of just banning him, she explained what the issue was, and because of that I knew I had to dig up chat transcripts to read what the problem was. Based on what I saw, I kicked the dude off and banned his IP address. I likely wouldn't have done that if she left no note and merely blocked him. There would be a greater chance that he would still be on the site now, messing with someone else. This is why I ask for a note when you block someone.

Messmaster

It's a human behavioural thing. When someone is going through trauma, anything that adds extra "processing load" is often too much. So having that box appear, apparently demanding details, even if it's now optional, is adding to the horror for someone who's already suffering.

If it was me, I'd have two pages, the first with just the block button, and only after that has been clicked (and the block imposed) then take the user to a second screen where they can optionally tell you why they've done it or provide more information.


I get that, I totally see the reasoning, and I do think people should be able to provide more info if they want to. But I also think being able to just block, without having to fill things in, is important.


Traffic levels. The vast majority come here to look at wam stuff only. The only way you'll reach them is if something is at the top of the Messy forum. Those of us who are active community members will come here too, and the other forums, the vast majority will only go to Messy.


I take it that's from the user stats, and perhaps I'm too cynical, but I'd be inclined to suspect that means in reality there are between 10% and 20% actual female users and the rest are guys listing as female for kink reasons. I hope I'm wrong, and obviously things have changed over the last 20+ years, but I remember Rob Blaine's breakdown of his customer base in the 90s, there were a very few female customers, but they really were rare as hen's teeth.

This is exactly how I understand it. People go there to see wam. That's why important existential debates such as this one belong in a forum dedicated to such discussions, not on the forum where people are looking for wam. The limits are lifted here and everything. The forums are themed for a reason, and we don't post to the wrong forum to leverage traffic. But if I do need to make a cross-forum announcement, I will.


The number is 45% female, and it comes from Google Analytics (not UMD), so make of it what you wish https://umd.net/about_us#site_stats

Messmaster

I browse the wall and the forums everyday and report and flag DOZENS OF THINGS, why you ask ? because its what you SHOULD due as part of this community saying the report function is bad because there is a reason why box is silly , the more info you give the faster your issue can be resolved. If you openly admit to not reporting someone who you think might be harassing you or another user YOU ARE NOT HELPING THE SITUATION AT ALL. Also "gas lighting" the situation as a HUGE COMMUNITY problem is just the same as not saying anything at all because IT DOES NOTHING TO RESOLVE THE SITUATION. At the end of the day each one of us is responsible for are own safety online. IF YOU DON'T USE THE TOOLS PROVIDED TO SAY YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH SOMEONE THEN WE CAN'T HELP YOU. I am first and foremost a user of this site I'm a mod second. All the safe guards in the world wont help if you don't use them.

I am 100% on board with a stronger and more explicit block functionality for this site that completely prevents the blocked person from viewing or interacting with you and your content. Quite frankly, I think it's the only way to give everyone -- particularly for women, who disproportionately suffer from harassment, intimidation, stalking, etc. -- peace of mind to participate actively in the community.

How can a community be vibrant, engaging, and enriching to all if there's an undercurrent of fear of being exploited?

In any case, would it be worth running a poll to see what everyone thought about this? As well as that, I wonder if making a block/report option more UI-friendly and easily executed might simply make the offenders/creeps just go to ground or something, and make it even more difficult to block and report them.

Sorry for the diatribe.

I'll tell right now that it's not going to be feasible. If you are uploading pictures and videos and other content, it will appear in all sorts of corners of this site. Reprogramming the entire UMD to filter content from users with a private setting would take months, and still not be effective. It would't prevent users who can still access your profile from saving your pictures or re-uploading them elsewhere, even off-site. I cannot protect you from this and don't want to lull you into a false sense of security about your content. I've said since the beginning that you should not upload anything that you ultimately don't want to be public.

I'm also all for any ideas to make the block UI more friendly. Right now all you have to do is click the report link, tick the "Block" checkbox, and submit. UMD captures all info about the situation and sends it to me so that I can check everything out.

Messmaster

I was surprised by the 45% statistic. It would be neat to see more of that Google Analytics report!


I think the realistic aim isn't to be Fort Knox so much as maybe be able to close the front door and draw the curtains. e.g., I would have much more peace of mind if we were able to share some things (e.g., photo albums) with friends only, and not have our business show up in farflung places. To me, that seems like a reasonable proposal that is in line with what you'd expect from a community over social media, and I don't believe it's available at present. It would also be a decent middle ground between user blocking vs. current options (full publicity, strict invisibility, and forced visibility to all users).

Of course, this would not be a foolproof system, since people can repost things. But then if friends broke trust by reuploading, they'd be the ones to blame, not the UMD. It would also potentially add more drama for administrators, because it will raise the stakes of friendslists. But that might just be a growing pain.

The "draw the curtains" analogy is perfect. It's what I had in mind with the Users-Only profile option. It can't block every trace of you on this site if you're out commenting on things and posting up content, but it prevents an internet full of randos creeping on your profile page.

Bottom line: Do not upload pictures and content to any web site if its discovery can threaten you in any way in real life. Uploading is publishing. We all need to be realistic about the abilities of a site to keep it inside walled garden.

Messmaster

Right. But just to be clear, I think having friends-only restricted content settings for albums and the like would be a concrete improvement.

I'm sorry, MM, but if THIS topic doesn't necessitate you making this hypothetical cross-forum announcement, what topic does?!? You can dress this up however you like it but the takeaway message of what you're saying above is:

People come here to look at WAM, and they should not have to be bothered with the consideration of the safety of our female members... talk about a boner killer! For the minority of UMD members who actually WANT to seriously consider the issue of women's safety, we've got a little ghetto area named the Off-Topic Forum where they can talk about it among themselves for a long time.

I'm sorry if this comes off as harsh, but come on: how can you honestly NOT see that shunting this crucial discussion to a place called "OFF TOPIC" is minimizing the issue and insulating the vast majority of UMD members from ever seeing this thread and having to think about the issues it raises?

When you post a picture, it shows up on the wall, on the main people page, in the galleries, in all your followers' notifications. Then it's available in various searches. Even if you were to switch to a "private" mode, the search engines probably already the pic in their own indexes. Due to the open nature of this site, the only way I can promise to keep your pics absolutely private is if you don't post them, or switch your account to Invisible mode.


A couple times a year, an unfortunate situation happens that boils over, causing a member to leave. In this case, Missie and justme2k17 were talking for months, then a disagreement happened, he got mad and threatened to reveal her pictures, and she left. I kicked the guy off, and now they're both gone.

My heart drops any time this happens, and I have e-mailed Missie to make it clear the guy is gone and she is welcome back. But I am not going to post a sticky announcement every time something like this happens and admonish you for being a bad community.

What I *can* do is continue to beef up UMD's ability to prevent repeat offenders, and encourage the community to flag anything that makes them uncomfortable in the least. Like Candy says, sometimes you can just tell. Help us out and tip us off! If there is something that the whole community can actually DO, or if there needs to be an adjustment in our overall thinking or something, then I'll post a sticky.

MM

So justme2k17 threatened at least two female members of this forum who flagged him, possibly others we have not heard from here. How many women have to be threatened by a member before he is banned?

I SAW HER MESSAGE ON THE WALL , and I took immediate action as any member should , I reported him and flagged his comments as harassment. ANY ONE CAN DUE THIS!
I'm sorry this took place, I really am.


WE DON'T KNOW THERE IS A PROBLEM UNLESS YOU SAY SO!!!!

You want to blame someone BLAME THE SCUM BAG RESPONSIBLE !

This whole thing started as a casual exchange of messages between two people it was fine up until he got impatient and threatened to out her could of happen to ANY one on this site male or female. Trust me I have had to block a few guys on here who could not take No for an answer.

Gas lighting this as HUGE problem is just silly.

EACH ONE OF US IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ARE OWN SAFETY ONLINE AND IF YOU DON'T USE THE TOOLS PROVIDED TO REPORT , FLAG AND BLOCK PEOPLE WE DON'T KNOW THERE IS A PROBLEM.

Members are not automatically banned for being flagged because flags are notes that are taken so we can remember what's going on. People block and flag each other every day and are not automatically banned. (You yourself have over 100 flags against you going back to 2015, and you're still here. )

In this case, I had already been watching justme2k17's account for a while due to Misspies's complaint about him in August, plus one person had blocked him in June. I put a watch on his account (as opposed to immediately banning him) due to all of it happening off-site. Without direct evidence in my hand, this is almost always how I handle these situations. Misspies and I spoke about that over inbox and email, and we've been in touch since.

The incident last week with Missie did happen on our site's chat, and once I saw that direct evidence, I immediately neutered his account and flagged his IP. He erased the account itself hours later before I could get to that stage. I'm still making sure he does not come back. But if anyone has suspicions, please flag!

Messmaster

Thanks for the detailed explanation here, MM. I feel slightly better about the situation after hearing this, although I still fear we may lose kittenish for good over this issue in general. And THAT would be a truly tragic loss to the community!

In my earlier post, I didn't mean that you should post a sticky note on all the forums over the specific incident concerning Missie, which is the way you took it. I was suggesting (albeit too vaguely) a sticky note for all the forums about how the site administration values the safety of its members highly, takes any threats made against its members very seriously, and that members who threaten others will be banned or at the very least "gagged." Otherwise, unless they happen to visit the Off Topic Forum at just the right time to see one of the occasional threads like this one, most members are never going to hear this message unless they drill deep into the ToS -- and how many do that?!? I'd really like to hear your response to THIS suggestion.

P.S. Let's also note that although I have myself accrued quite the collection of flags over the past four years, I'm certain that none of them were over me threatening another UMD member. Being overly grumpy and argumentative with a certain popular producer is at the root at most of these flags, I'm sure, and I'm not defending this behavior at all. I just want it noted, since you bring up my rich collection of flags on a thread specifically about threats against female members, that I've never threatened anyone of any gender.