Good post. When I take on a custom project I make it clear there's a no refund policy except for a few things:

1) I cannot shoot with with the models chosen. Maybe one said yes but they had to back out. If the customer won't accept a replacement I'll issue a refund.

2) I screw up. If I missed key elements of the script I'll offer to re-shoot it. If they say no, they get a refund.

When I don't offer refunds:

1) I say we'll be shooting on the 15th but it has to be moved to the 18th. Get real. Not offering a refund in that situation.

2) Customer complains about something that was not defined in the script. So let's say the models wore shorts and he's pissed they didn't wear skirts. If skirts were not in the script, no refund. (Note, I tell all of my custom clients to be detailed about the scene and attire, so they had a head's up.)

3) "It didn't turn out the way they hoped." I've only had to deal with this two times over my years of producing. Some guys, especially ones who have never ordered a custom...well...the scene doesn't live up to their fantasy. They dig on the acting and nitpick everything to death. In the mean time, the video rocked and we hit every single element of the script. No refund.

And while we're on it, maybe we should talk about how to write a custom script so the producer or model doesn't read it and go "what the holy hell does this guy want?"

Here's the basics on how to write a custom script:

Length of video: 15 minutes

Models: Amber and Jessica

Nudity: Topless only

Attire: Both of them in dresses, white stockings and dress shoes

Pies: 30 pies, cool whip with graham cracker crust

Overview: Amber and Jessica are both entering pies in a baking contest. While they're both making their pies they start tasting each other's pie and start busting on each other. Amber gets pissed and smashes a pie into Jessica's face, Jessica retaliates then it turns into a pie war as they rip each other's tops off and pie each other's tits.

Opening scene: 5 minutes

We see both of them in the kitchen be fake nice to each other as they get their ingredients together and start making their pies. They're sniping at each other, each bragging that they're going to win the grand prize.

Trading pies: 10 minutes

Jessica goes over to taste Amber's pie and busts on it, saying it tastes horrible. Then Amber tastes Jessica's calling it the worst pie she's ever tasted. Jessica calls her a loser and Amber's had it, slowly pics up a pie and holds it. Jessica crosses her arms and says "I fucking dare you." Then Amber slams the pie in her face. Jessica doesn't move - she's frozen, stunned for about 10 seconds, then slowly wipes the pie from her eyes first, then her face while Amber laughs. Then Jessica slams a pie in Amber's face, same reaction, then the each have a tit-for-tat pie fight.

Top ripping, more pies: 5 minutes

After the tit-for-tat pies, it devolves into a free-for-all pie war where they're just smashing pies and smearing cool whip all over each other. Then they grab each other's tops, rip them down and smash pies in each other's tits. It ends when all the pies are gone, they stand there staring at each other and break out laughing.

That, folks, is what producers need to deliver a good custom scene.

That's pretty different than my scripts, but good to see the ideal.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y0Oq90WfgKJ_i9IAkAq1O9dEgiQ_dAYc/view?usp=drivesdk

i tend to go usiing screenshots of what I already like and tell them to recreate, but I don't want to tell them how to do thier job too much as I am not an expert.

So my script is much more focused on what I want to see happen than how I want it to be achieved.

That script is also ambiguous on camera work, so you could have something where someone is walking around bobbing like a boxer and getting really shaky stuff, or something filmed static from a distance and it would all technically fit your script.

Having been on both sides of the customs game (customer and producer), I can confidently say your "scripts" (my bf says they're closer to "treatments" :bahaha are 100% the gold standard.

The work you put in ahead of time on making sure exactly what you want is clear is incredible, and certainly has a lot to do with why you've had primarily positive customs experiences.

I'm not saying that everybody (or anybody) should have to put in that amount of work if they want a good video, but this is certainly a template that should safeguard against any mistakes or miscommunications.

Those are definitely treatments. A script has *lines* - but for those you gotta go with the real pros

I recall paying ~$300 for one model's fee many years ago with MG. They were looking for sponsors and the arrangement was you'd pay for a model's fee and get some say in the direction of the video. I sent the $300, sent them a follow-up of what I had in mind, never heard back. The movie with the model I'd sponsored was released a few weeks later, the single minor request I had completely ignored. That was the very first time I'd done more than just buy a clip here and there, so...caveat emptor. It was a good learning experience. Has MG produced their own excellent scenes since? Absolutely no question on that. Have I sponsored anything for them or ordered a custom from them in the several years since? Nope. Fortunately it isn't a limited market like it was years ago. There are plenty of great, reputable customs producers who're ready and willing to film your fantasy.

No, you're not the only one, and it's not just customers. There have been reports and treads, and DMs from models who have had issues over the past several years too. I personally have not.

The degree/accuracy/validity of those have varied just as greatly too. I think it's extremely important to put everything out there (good and bad) so that customers AND producers can both who are good, who are bad, who are timewasters, and who are scammers and to do so in as professionally and matter of factly as possible.

To create an example if I had a bad experience with Jayce (I haven't). I could start a thread and say:

I ordered (x) on (y date) for (z currency) and contacted on dates (a, b, and c) but never heard any responses. Have other people who used this producer had similar issues? Am I contacting at the right email.

Likewise, Jayce could turn around and respond here and say:
"Oh, you were sending to the wrong email" or "oh, I never received the agreed upon up front deposit" or possibly "I've filmed said custom 3 times already and they're never satisfied, done my best to fulfill the scenario and delivered the agreed upon product etc."

Airing things out like this publicly should never be a first resort, but if someone's been screwed privately, letting others in the community know should never be frowned upon or discouraged. What's important though is to try and voice concerns without being a dick about it.

Again, customs are private transactions and no one else here can arbitrate them. Both parties need to cover their asses. You don't need to be a criminal defense attorney to draw up a basic contract. But if you feel it's too much of a hassle to do so, you really don't have a leg to stand on and bitch if you get screwed over that goes as much for producers as it does customers.

Y'all need to be careful with your money, clear with your intent and desire for your product, and realistic in your expectations.

THANK you, Johnnypie! THIS is what potential custom-desiring customers need to see so we can understand what is clear to the producer.

Are the reviews linked to producer's profiles? I noticed that in the specific stores there are reviews and things about the store itself, which also contain some reviews about customs. Do all producers who provide customs have to have a store? Good or bad I agree it needs to be out there. If it was associated with a producer's profile, they may be a little more encouraged not to let things slip. Yes mistakes happen totally 100%. I would like to see the reviews section formatted in a way that allowed for commenting. So that both the customer and the producer could defend themselves. The review site for the customers needs to be the same as the producers. Linked to their account and out in the open. I think that there is a LOT of good information in the couple of customs threads that we have active right now. There is a real opportunity here for a few tweaks to the site to make things a little better. I know that MM wants people to leave reviews and stuff. I have seen various producers offer discounts or specials based on reviews. I think that is a great idea!!! There are a lot of good custom experiences that happen and they need to be put out there.

I think that the UMD Mafia has been pretty much squashed. When the mods were called out a while back and MM instituted the changes with deleting posts and stuff it has made things a lot better and a lot more transparent. There have been a few posts I am surprised were allowed to remain public and were not taken to a private conversation. Huge Kudos for the improvements that have been made and the transparency.

How come lately every day I punch into this board it's another story about how MessyGirl ripped someone off.

That's not quite how it went down, just to correct the record. We had a couple people on here who were deliberately creating FUD in our community every time a post had been erased, accusing us of censorship and all that. So I developed the "ghost threads" where deleted threads would stick around for a few days to show who deleted them and why. That pretty much killed all that conspiracy/mafia noise. Anyone always could have just asked me why a post was deleted anyway; I don't really keep secrets around here.


The reason a thread is deleted is public record for a few days (and I'm always willing to explain the older ones if you ask me). Turns out that a majority of the time, people who make complaint threads against producers normally delete their OWN threads once the producer takes notice and starts communicating with them again. But I always encourage people to not only post about their experiences, but better yet write an actual review that's not going to fall off the forum homepage after a few days. The purpose is to foster communication, not squash it.

Yeah we used to shoot together pretty often but have been out of contact for ages.

once you've become disgruntled, you can never be gruntled again!

at best you might be re-gruntled... or maybe undisgruntled?

(me personally, i've found it easier just to stay disgruntled!) i'm not much of a patron, but such is my lot...

Gruntled: State of extreme satisfaction and relaxation experienced while luxuriating in a deep bath of chocolate / custard / syrup / mud while accompanied by one or more persons of your gender and sexuality preference(s), dressed (or not) in your ideal of WAM clothing.

Sorry, as a producer this is just something you don't do. If a customer pays for 2 girls but 1 girl isn't available, you don't just sub in a male for the role. In this case, you contact the client and say "hey, got a small problem, we can't do this with 2 girls. Do you want to wait to shoot on another date or would you rather have a refund."

That he subbed in a guy without getting your consent smells a bit like he was trying to pull a fast one and hoping he'd get away with it.

I can't help think this is where more realistic lead-times would help. We quote everyone three months. That doesn't mean we sit around the Great Hall drinking cider for three months then do it all in a mad rush (I call that the "student study method") but rather we try and do it ASAP after the 50% deposit is paid, however it gives us the leeway, if anything goes wrong on the initially appointed day, to reschedule, while still being completely within the promised timetable.

Blimey. Customs are a minefield!

Maybe someone could draft a standard 'Scene' or 'Movie' request form that is downloadable on UMD? Kinda who, how long, with what, items that are non negotiable, clothing etc


Failing that, how about I sit in a booth with Oti-Mabuse and we mediate between parties using our breasts and custard(.)(.)

Not that I have a girl crush

Tara xx

It doesn't matter what the lead time is. I can't even continue with a custom shoot if one of the female models isn't available, meaning I can't sub in another girl. That customer might have wanted that specific girl.

So if I have a custom to shoot tomorrow with Jessa and Josie, then Jessa can't make it, I have to reach out to my customer and let him know that and get permission to use another model. If it's a no, then I have to issue an immediate refund.

If you don't have enough money floating around in your bank to issue same-day refunds if something goes sideways, you have no business taking on custom projects.

I disagree about times. We promise our customers delivery within 3 months of deposit paid. We then schedule the shoot ASAP, so usually within a week or two. But if one of the models isn't available, or for that matter the custard miners go on strike, no problem, we reschedule for a couple more weeks later - and we're still completely within the delivery schedule we've promised. If, at the end of the three months, we've still for some reason not managed to film it, customer gets their deposit back, no questions asked. That's never happened, but it's part of the deal and we'd honour it if we needed to.

But this concept people are talking about of customs delivered in just a few days to me is insane. A custom fetish scene is a high end luxury product. No-one would go to Rolls Royce or Cadillac or Lamborghini and expect them to produce a custom-built car in a week, doing these things properly takes time and planning, as well as co-ordinating materials, talent, and crew. For one of our customs we had to design and build an entire new end wall for the dungeon complete with projecting gunge pipe, never mind orgnising model and crew.

As to your scenario, agree completely if the customer has specified they want models X and Y, and then Y isn't available, no you can't shoot it that day. So you reschedule to shoot it the next time both models are available. As long as it's within the lead time you've agreed with your customer, it's all good. By all means update them to the status of things as you're going along, but as long as you stay within the agreed schedule, no need for refunds - generally speaking as long as the customer knows you are genuinely going to shoot the scene and not just vanish with the money - which is where the 50/50 comes in, the customer knows it's in your interest to deliver the scene so as to get paid in full - they'll mostly rather get the scene they ordered than a refund, given the choice.

I've asked Messygirl to respond to this thread just as I ask every producer who's being publicly called out, but they've declined, stating that it's a private issue. I may start requiring at least a response from producers on the list in the future. Meanwhile anyone is free to read and write reviews about Messygirl or anyone else on the list. https://messygirl-video-vault.umd.net/#customs

I am available to continue working with anyone who has issues with any customs producer--just contact me via inbox--and if I learn that there are significant outstanding issues, they will be removed from the list, at least temporarily.

Messmaster

Well, if I owned people money yet was still posting new videos and was getting called out here by those members, I'd certainly want to make it private too.

I guess the lesson here is treat your custom clients fairly and you won't be getting called out. And if you're taking money and not acting properly, you can and should absolutely be prepared to be called out publicly as a warning for others.

If a customer is not satisfied with their custom, they are refunded, given a free custom credit or a redo of their custom.

I can vouch for this. Custom wasn't what I wanted, they refunded me.

I as a producer don't make custom videos at this moment, because I wouldn't feel that way, I do what I want, but if I did, I wouldn't feel good if the client is not satisfied with the final product.
I think there should be an option in the store about reviews of the store, so you already know if that producer was trustworthy or not.

This is not at all directed at MG or anyone else. It's a general comment. The main issue when clients are not refunded immediately is the producer/model is dead broke. I'm not making light of that situation. I've lived paycheck to paycheck before so I know what that feels like.

The issue with accepting money when you're broke is everything has to go right. If it doesn't and you're in a position where you need to issue an immediate refund, the money's been spent on bills and there's nothing left.

These are not scammers or con-artists. They take money with good intentions, then probably shit their pants when something goes sideways.

Advice? If you are not cash flow positive and cannot handle issuing a full and immediate refund, you shouldn't be accepting customs.

That brings up a question that I would sincerely like to hear from a WAM producer's perspective.
I honestly am in the dark/totally ignorant of how annoying/useful/not useful/time-wasting etc
it is to a WAM producer for a potential customer making a custom-request to, say,
"check out this YouTube clip 1, between x:xx and y:yy: make the pies like this
this YouTube clip 2, between x:xx and y:yy: make the underwear like this
this scene from SlapstickStuff: make the acting like this"

In my biased mind, I imagine that the sort of custom *I* would request would be "very simple".
But, I cannot judge that objectively. Would need a producer's perspective.

In my sort of custom, the actresses/models wouldn't have to say anything,
and they wouldn't have to do anything (besides take turns pie-ing each other)
and just stand there.

always heard about Kaydens being a scammer, but who knew MessyGirl were a thieves and liars.

glad it got called out.

It certainly sounds like the the easiest way for the producer to know what's wanted and for the customer to be pleased with the end product.

Take models x and y, use the clothes used in scene abc or use these particular clothes from shop xyz which would be added to the bill, use substances A and B, then go and do what's basically a normal scene for you using your gunge tank / bath / etc etc etc.

I can see how a simple 'order' like that could turn out perfectly because you've chosen the right producer and all you're wanting is their normal work with slight customisation. For instance, my username gives some idea of what clothes I'd be asking for the models to wear and I know where to buy them from.

On the other hand, I can see how that simple order could be made easier for the producer to know exactly what I'm wanting if I specify in my order every single detail so the producer knows everything and doesn't have any niggling worries that there might be particular details which I assumed would be included just because that's what they usually do.

Any "make the acting like this" bits could be where it could start to get complicated. I like to think I'd have covered that already with my choice of model(s) and I'd be wanting their usual reactions as it wouldn't be a very good choice of model(s) if their reactions weren't what I want.

It all seems so simple yet there are so many possible pitfalls. And hmmmm, after writing that lot I'm unsure as to what the point of this post is.

Every time I see new threads like this pop up, it just makes me think that customs on the whole aren't the best. I've always held off on offering them because I'd be worried that the customer wouldn't be happy with what I'd create for the person, especially for the sum of money typically involved with creating them.

On the one hand that's good advice however in reality there are always going to be solo-girl producers with little or no other source of income who are indeed living hand to mouth and using the profit from one scene to fund the next one while also trying to scrape through just enough to live on at the same time, and whose business will indeed immediately derail all wheels if anything goes wrong. No resource, no backup, no financial stability. They'll always be cheaper than going to a more "business" producer, but will always be riskier to deal with as a result. But short of demanding that no-one can be on the Custom Producers List unless they first deposit $1000 with MM to prove they have the financial means to be in business (which would take us right back to the escrow issues previously discussed, and is hence a total non-starter), there's no way to stop someone financially insecure from setting up to do customs.


I've never had anyone send a YouTube clip but have had people send links to clothing sites providing examples of the outfits they wanted the girls to wear in a scene, including where the customer actually bought the outfit but we had a discussion on sizing and fit first, with images and links provided.

"Make the pies like this" would be a problem though - for example someone could send a MostWAM sample image requesting similar pies, but the MostWAM pie recipie is a closely guarded secret and I have no idea how they make it, so all the images in the world wouldn't help me to recreate it. TBH I'd love to know what it is as it looks delicious! But I understand why they don't share it.


Something I've found is it's very necessary to explain to the girls that yes, it's fine to keep doing the same thing over and over. Some years back I was shooting a day of pie scenes, and had explained before we started I wanted lots of focus on face pies. So we started rolling and they pied each other in the face. And then every subsequent hit was to somewhere else. I stopped the camera and explained again I wanted focus on face pies. We restarted, they pied each other in the face twice and then started going for other areas again. Eventually we got to the bottom of it, the two girls on that scene genuinely thought the audience would get bored if they kept doing the same thing with no variety, so they were trying to make it more interesting. I had to explain that no, if the audience has a fetish for a particular thing, then generally they want to see that thing being done over and over again, rather than done once or twice and then go off to something else.

I've also had to explain that when we're doing trouser-filling, the pours should be dead centre on the waistband so the goo flows down to the crotch where it divides and goes down both legs, plus they get the sensation of it soaking through their underwear in sensitive places - to me that was obvious but some of the girls at first assumed they should aim to pour down each leg instead for the feelings of it running down inside the trousers. It's amazing just how much of what's obvious to one person is seen completely differently by the next, and of course if you're commissioning customs, there is a huge amount that can be quite innocently got wrong by a producer or model. And WAM being what it is, you can't just back up and do a retake once the mess is applied.