Hi gang,

What percentage of models that producers approach are down to get pied?

Tbh I don't think shaving foam and oatmeal is a big deal.

How objectionable is this for the average punter?

How many are enthusiastic?

Curious how hard it is to find these guys

5%? Maybe 2%?
Not exaggerating.

In the past two months, I've reached out to approximately 30 new models, trying to find talent to replace all the ones I've lost over the last year. About half of those never responded, the other half responded with some amount of interest. Once I gave all the details, most of those 15 decided to pass.... either nicely, or less so. (One model who does lots of nude & fetish work said it was "the worst thing she could possibly imagine doing.") And these 15 ranged from fresh-faced college girls, to nude models, to promo girls who are totally fine with tending bar in a bikini made of bottle caps for overweight drunk rednecks. But for all of them, getting hit with some pies for $100/hr (or more) was a bridge too far.

Three girls thought the shoot sounded great, and we locked in all the details, and I took time & money to make everything happen. All 3 cancelled the morning of, for various (and definitely bullshit) reasons. One seemed legit, and asked me to reschedule... then cancelled the morning of the rescheduled date.

I also talked to my agent friend, who in the past booked models for myself (and another producer who 3 different models have since told me they caught masturbating on-set, FWIW). She reached out to another 7 names... 6 passed, 1 agreed to shoot. Shoot went great, but then the model said she wasn't interested in doing it again unless she remained 100% clean. (Oh, and she wanted $300 a scene to stay clean.)

Agent basically told me that every single model she approaches has some amount of trepidation or unease about doing any kind of WAM shoot. In years past, the money and complete anonymity was enough to offset these reservations. But now, when models can make $500 a post on IG, and EVERYTHING can be traced back to everyone regardless of aliases, it's a near-impossible "sell" for her, and she no longer tries to push them into it. (Like she did with most of the models booked by the masturbator.)

Myself, and many others, were lucky enough to start doing this when most prospective models viewed WAM as a mild, harmless fetish. Now that the current crop of girls basically equates it with actual porn (with all the equivalent public shame and/or expectation to get paid thousands), I'm not really sure how sustainable the future really is. There will always be a small percentage of females who actually LIKE WAM, or at least find the money enough to offset their mild dislike, but that pool is getting smaller and smaller every month. 14 years in, and this is the hardest year I've EVER had in terms of finding and keeping models.

Sorry. I know you wanted a cute flip answer and got the ugly unvarnished truth. Downvote if you must.

You need to move to Bristol, mostwam apparently seem unable to. Go outside without stumbling on beautiful women eager to get messy

I find the response rate with any interested is probably 1 in 25, so about 4%. Similar to what Rich said, it's often just getting any people to consistently respond. Many of the girls also seem to be challenged at arranging their own business, even though it's to their benefit and you think they would want to answer a text or email to book.

That being said, of those that do show interest, many express that it looks like a lot of fun to them. I am yet to have a model tell me she didn't have a good time getting messy, so I hope that trend can continue for a little while.

In stark contrast, I've only had one model I've approached say no. But I use purpleport where I can see ahead of time in the models profile whether or not they are down for being involved in fetish and adult content so that probably helps.

I also get to meet many when they work with other producers at my studio and they approach me but I haven't counted them in the above experience

I've never had a problem recruiting models, and most of those who have worked with me have done so for many years and are happy to come back time and time again. Friends all know what I do, so I'm sometimes introduced to possible models by friends generally with a line like "and this is DM1 who likes to pour custard over people, would you like to have custard poured over you?" There have also been occasions where I've wondered if someone I already know might be interested, and then they post a pic of themselves on social media with obvious fetish overtones, most of the time if I then politely message and ask they turn out to be up for it. I'm always completely honest about what it's for, that it's fetish and guys (and occasionally girls) wank to it - being open and up-front definitely helps.

I have had the occasional person who's either done a few then decided it's not for them or thought about it but declined before we booked anything firm, which is reasonable enough. Only ever once had someone cancel on the day, and they had previously said they were unsure (and were going to be the third person in an already booked two-model scene) so was fine with her doing that.

I've also occasionally been contacted out of the blue by someone who wants to get messy, though that's less common.

I'm seeing a trend here. UK 3 - USA - 0 I'm wondering if there is more at work here that's not being shown.

How is it that Leon over the past 15 years can build a harem / revolving door of beautiful young women who continually come back for years (sometimes 10 years after retirement), but someone like Rich not only has trouble finding new talent, but keeping them coming back?

Is there some major cultural difference between the USA and UK that just makes this almost impossible in the USA? Is it a male/female producer thing? Be interested to see what a female US producer like Jayce or Ariel have to say regarding this.

Maybe it has nothing to do with that at all? Maybe it has to do with the approach? Or maybe the kind of women being approached? What's being offered, and what's being asked of?

Is it attitude, or is it latitude?

WAM, gunge, etc. has always been more acceptable in the UK. The difference is probably more pronounced now. Current millennials here in America have grown up in a world with little to no "fun" mainstream messy content.... whereas the predatory nature of some WAMmers here (on social media and elsewhere) is literally their only exposure.

As far as models saying they had fun getting messy after the fact.... Sure. I've heard that consistently over the years. For a long time I believed it unequivocally. I STILL think it's true for a few, but if you have the stomach for it, do an experiment: Find a friend (or agent) of a former model, someone who the model will be 100% honest with. (And who will also be 100% honest with YOU.) And see what they really think.

Models tell you what you want to hear. To be fair, so do us producers. The myth that all these girls are happily making fetish content without a second thought is perpetrated by all of us, and I'm sure is part of the fantasy that most buy into gladly.

I can think of one cultural difference that might affect things.

Rich seems to keep losing his models to marriage and pregnancy, which doesn't appear to be such an issue for producers over here. Of course, it's not that UK WAM models don't have children (!), but as a broad sociological point people who live in more religious societies tend to settle down and have children younger than in more secular countries.

Well, the US is more religious than the UK so you can see how Rich's models would do a couple of shoots and then retire much earlier than their UK equivalents. Hence, he's always having to find new girls in a way the average UK producer just isn't. Incidentally, I've never quite caught where Rich is based in the US, but if it's in one of the "Bible Belt" states then I guess this factor would have even more of an effect.

There are exceptions, of course. Jilly was only getting started for Ariel back in the late 2000s before she went on maternity leave, but she later came back and wammed for years. Come to that, I think Ariel herself did the same about a year later.

But overall this might be a general reason for the US/UK difference.

In all honesty, this whole community is built on that noble lie...take it away and I shudder to think where we'd be

In my experience it's not a lie

I'm not saying the models get sexual excitement from the act of wam or that they would do it alone in their spare time but they very clearly enjoy the day and appreciate the lengths I go to to make it fun and comfortable ...and ask to come back. I know it's not about the money either because they get paid the same for clean gigs... I don't offer any extra and all of them get plenty of offers of clean gigs. Also the models often go above and beyond of their own accord.

I really think the only difference is as said in my other post I'm approaching models I can see have already decided they are OK with fetish work. I believe my good reputation and numerous great references from previous models also helps them feel safe and a glimpse of what is in store for them It's a brilliant feature of purpleport.

If I were approaching high end agency or insta models I'd likely get far less success

here's a few of my references... I'm sure you'll all see why it helps having this kind of thing to back you up.



'I've been to Candy's studio before to shoot but have not had the pleasure of working with her until now. She may live to regret this shoot however as I didn't want to leave!

Candy is a wonderful person - so friendly and nothing is too much trouble. I had an immense amount of fun, everything was superbly organised and Candy comes highly recommended from me'


'Awesomeness!!!! Really,really,really enjoy working this job. Is sooo enjoyable , like it makes me wanna jump up and down like a kid again!

Of course, Candy and team are immaculately organised and professional and are a joy to work with.

Totally recommended! and hope they book me again!!!

Thanks guys!'


'Absolutely brilliant shoot and lots of fun !

Candy is extremely organised, very professional and is model focused!

Day runs with ease as everything is perfectly organised!

id highly recommend candys shoot to all models and would love the oppurtunity to work with her again !'

'Had such a blast with Candy! She is ace! Her communications before the shoot were second to none, the most organised woman I know! Her preparation for the shoot was so well thought out, and we managed to get heap loads of work done in a shorter space of time than originally planned. She made me feel so welcome in her house and I had a great day! Goes without saying, I highly recommend working with Candy and can't wait to work with her again! Ps, she puts on a lovely spread too!'

I wonder if the US is more commercial - people hiring professional models who model for a living, vs in the UK it's a bit more social? All of my active models are also my personal friends. We sometimes hang out together, go to the same clubs and gigs. Felicity is one of my best mates as well as being a model, Friday knows me well enough that she was willing to come to all the way to Vegas with me as a friend, I hang out with Susie and Rosemary a fair bit, I've been clubbing with almost all of the models at one time or another and on several occasions stayed the night on a couch at Chastity's place. Yes, everyone gets paid for their shoots, but all of them do also enjoy it, you can't fake the kind of happy fun chaos that tends to erupt part way through most of our scenes, and TBH I doubt if we pay well enough for anyone who actually hated it to consider it worth carrying on with.

Of course I've also shot scenes with the amazing Penny Banks, and she definitely enjoys what she does, likewise the wonderful Maria, or the absolute force of natural messiness who is Candy Custard.

I've never had a problem getting models who wanted to come and get messy for my store..and the more shoots I did, the easier it got. Like Candy I received some lovely feedback on purpleport and that seems to ensure models know you are legit and a decent person.

I had one purpleport model who advertised herself as doing fetish who said the idea was "disgusting and offensive" but outside of that, the problem has been how to politely turn down models who want to come and shoot.

So for whatever reasons there really does seem to be a Europe / US divide on this.

I would also agree with Candy that we are not living a lie. I could name you 3 or 4 models I shot with who clearly didn't especially enjoy it and just did it for the money..but the rest seem to genuinely enjoy the silliness and playfulness and ability to do something that adults are not normally allowed to, and get messy. They wouldn't do it without being paid, of course, but it doesn't feel like work and they have great fun on the day.

I'm sure the conservative nature of the U.S. plays a big part now. Also a model friend of mine offered this yesterday.... Twentysomethings that used to stay in my area and find good paying work can't do that anymore, so they split ASAP for bigger cities: L.A., Vegas, Miami, Houston, etc. We still have great-looking girls here.... but now they leave town before I can really shoot with them more than once (or at all). This would probably also explain why MG or someone based in a very large city has a much easier time of it.

(BTW, I've lost more than a dozen girls in the last few years to Vegas and L.A. so I can vouch. Also, this girl is planning to move to L.A. herself in a month. )

As for the social aspect of WAM in the U.S..... There's never been one. At least not to my knowledge. Producers don't hang out together. Those "epic" Mark & Lenny shoots in FL were the result of Mark having a home in FL where they could shoot.... Lenny putting up the funds... And both of them flying in a dozen models and putting them up in hotels for the duration. It might've looked "social" on film, but none of that was natural or organic.

Me personally, I went out with Deana and her friends once, maybe 13 years ago. Even then I felt old. I would feel gross trying to have a "social element" with the models now who are 2 decades younger than me. (I also use older models, who almost always have husbands and often travel with them, so no social there either.)

I do envy those who pal around with their models IRL like many customers assume (incorrectly) that I do. That's a nice life! I have been "friends" with a number of models over the years, but as I cynically argued with another producer.... If a model stops shooting with you and suddenly you're no longer in contact with her, was she ever really a friend? I mean, I'm not getting invited to ex-model's weddings. We don't get together for drinks. We have good relationships as long as I'm offering the money and they're needing the work. Once that dynamic changes.... It's anyone's guess....

(I am still VERY good friends with ONE ex-model. She's actually dragging me to hot yoga tonight. She's the huge exception to this rule. She had thoughts as well, but I'll save those...)

um, I resemble that remark

I don't that's a very fair comparison. Look at Moomin turn overs. The ones that don't come back usually don't for the same reasons that American women don't. They do other things with their lives. Usually by age 30, that generally entails starting a family of some sort or pursuing other long term life goals.

The women you see doing this longer aren't doing so because they're more or less religious (although religious friends/family tend to be WAY less supportive), but rather because it's been their career. Ariel, Jayce, Jilly, Lisa, Candy, these women weren't just models; they were business owners.


More honest in our desires and pursuits? I don't see how that could be a bad thing. Doesn't this go back to the myriad of other threads about models that like vs. hate (doing work) getting messy. If you hate the job...take a different one. So, is the lie really that noble, or is it used as a tool to help ensure a paycheck?


Possibly? The US in general is a very corporate country. Something close to half of all working Americans don't use all their vacation days. We're either too busy, or it's too expensive, or we get stuck using them for sick days. When you talk to someone here, after giving you their name, 99.999% of the time it will be followed up with what they do for work, not what their interests. We ARE our careers most of the time.

And "professionals" as you put it, want to get paid. They're not there to have fun, they're there to work. But look at Candy's most recent release. She's not shied away from saying that it was a lot more involved and cost a fair amount more than other shoots.

I think it's interesting that you mentioned Friday because she's fairly big time in her modelling career. So for her not to be this way is a pretty strong exception to the rule, and a testament to her personal character not being bound to her professional one.

I promise I'm gonna stop responding to everything! But this last comment made me rethink everything.....

....Is the U.K. fifteen years behind the U.S. in everything?? Like, not just the uptight attitude towards WAM, but the way models get booked, the way IG rules everything, the way "normal" girls respond to strange men walking up to them on the street and asking if they're interested in "paid work getting messy"....???

I mean, I kid... but not entirely. 15 years ago, when I started out, I wasn't approaching anyone but amateur models, and I was largely successful. I also had girls I knew IRL (because back then, you MET girls in real life, cuz Instagram didn't exist) and I got them into it as well. (Toshia!!) But even 10 years ago, just approaching women at random was a bad idea. Maybe it works if you're their age and look like a Jonas brother? For the rest of us... not really.

This idea has fallen apart recently, but for most of my career, "professional model" had a degree of.... professionalism. I rarely had a flake, and certainly not from an established model. They couldn't make thousands a week from posts or Patreon or OnlyFans. They had to show up to jobs to get paid. Whereas, some random "normal" girl on the street was a HUGE flake risk, because she had no reputation or possible career at stake.
So that's why I stopped quickly with that approach. In the HD era, I think I've used only one model I met IRL... and while she was fantastic (and I'm still friends with her), I only used her twice total. Because the 3 other times I booked her, she just cancelled... anytime from the night before to 30 min beforehand. She treated it like a lark and that's a bad thing when your shoot requires hours of prep and actual monetary investment.

I feel like the forecast isn't as dour here in the US as it's being made out to be. There are many, many young, attractive models who would happily shoot messy for $100/hr! That usually means models who aren't yet established or in major demand (18-25 year olds mainly), who are serious about modeling and actively looking to work in a freelance capacity (agencies are pointless), and who appreciate/enjoy doing alternative/art/kinky projects. When I'm going good, it's like a 25% success rate.

Sure there's always models that you think you absolutely HAVE TO shoot with- like they'd be perfect on so many levels- and they just ignore or decline...that's definitely super frustrating. But I just try to stay positive and usually find some very nice options out there!

So what you're saying is, you should move. You don't open up a waterpark in Siberia. The Carolinas can't exactly compete with LA, NYC, or Vegas in the ways you want it to. You even acknowledge that, so it might be time move to greener pastures.


"Hot yoga" huh? Sounds...hot. I hope you have a good night!

This is a very interesting read. Yes, the UK gals just seem to be more open to exploring WAM than US gals. I just feel that UK upbringing tends to instill prim and proper living and by the time the repressed UK female is of age, they are ready to break out and explore. Just a theory.

We never had any issue finding models. We placed a personal ad in the local underground paper in the early years, and we got Sara and her sister Christy. Since that worked so well, we did it again and got Lexi and sister Nikki. So that was how we got many of our girls at first. Then we explorered the internet modeling sites and got Liz when she was starting out as a model.

It's also a case of who you know. Linda and I were co workers, and she became a model, and her ex had an ex who was Raven, and Raven had a friend, and that was Amber, and Amber had a friend, and that was Maddy. So the domino effect helped us out as well. By that time, we had a good rotation of models and established ourselves as a serious producer, we had models contacting us, such as London Andrews/Vicky and she put in a good word for us with other models, and soon we had many more contacting us. When we were featured on TV a few times, that also helped validate us with more models. It got to the point that we were turning away models. Lane came to us, we didn't go to her. She actually was new to fetish modeling and enjoyed her first MG shoot so much, that she contacted us a few months later; we had no intention of calling her back. She then became a regular for 5 years. We are glad she reached out to us on both accounts.

Today, we find many models by word of mouth from our current models. Although, I did find Amy and Penelope on Model mayhem. I just don't understand why after we find and establish a model, such as Amy and Penelope, why other producers want to shoot with them?

As someone who lived in Bristol for four years, what I want to know is: where were all these women when I was there?! Indeed, Mostwam seemed to get properly up and running more or less the second I left the city.

Fascinating thread though - how producers find models is something I wonder about often, and it's interesting to see that the experiences and recruitment methods vary a lot.

every model I've approached has been down to get a pie to the face or sit in a cake. literally 100%. Maybe I just have a magical ability to pick them out... like gaydar but better

That was the secret of Rob Blaine's success and how Messy Fun always had a constant stream of willing and availaible girls...i.e. Rob lived in a college town (Austin, TX) and all he did was place ads on college noticeboards and newspapers and he had many college girls interested in taking a few pies or playing in the mud.

When you are a college student why spend all week at a minimum wage job when you could work as a model for Rob and make more money in 1 day as a wam, model than you could working for a week at McDonalds. For College students working as a wam model was a viable option because then you had a lot more time free for studying instead of working all week waiting tables or serving burgers.

It is not a question of whether you like wam projects, it is more of an economic reality.

If you move to a college town then you will never have a problem finding willing models.

Why r u throwing so much shade?

Damn, I'm intrigued... can you give us a hint as to who the model is??

Does Linda plan to come back? I liked seeing her again!

While your comment makes perfect sense, there is an equally opposing factor. With the vast spread of the internet, anyone can be a porn star from the comfort of their own home; and many decide to do just that.

Sites like Manyvids are KILLING it where traditional sites are hemorrhaging money to piracy and selling themselves to PornHub.

So this is interesting because I've heard Jayce say something to the effect that it's easier to find college girls who are DTF on camera than have some cake batter poured on them.

I mean, if you can make $stupid.00 a month on IG making goofy ass UWU faces or faking your own death like Belle Delphine, would you make WAM or porn? Also consider, that the second you did something like that, you would be setting a precedent saying that you're willing to do more. Now you'll have to start working for your money. Fuck that!

This is a bit off-topic, but this thread just makes me seriously hope we are getting closer as a society to the point where sex work and being traceable online is not stigmatized or seen as a barrier to employment or social strata. And that women don't have to feel guilty or fearful about choosing to be alive and sexual, either for their own pleasure or for money (both are and should be perfectly acceptable).

Not that all the producers who commented here even do work that could be categorized as sex work. I just wish it wasn't such a big deal. I'm hopeful the attitudes about sex are shifting and in the future it won't be.

Actually, I've had variations of this discussion, in person, with a few folks already (probably why I ranted so long).... and the topic of moving came up.

Bottom line: I'm not sure doing these shoots is enough a part of my life to warrant leaving my friends & family and moving to a city I don't particularly like, just to make it easier to find models. And a producer who JUST started shooting in L.A. emailed to complain about the flakes he's already getting.... so it's not like my problems are unique to my geography. Does he have access to far more models where he lives? Yes. Is he still at the whims of a younger generation of models who don't take the job seriously? Also yes.

Models gonna flake, whether it's the Bible Belt or L.A. Only difference is, it'll cost you three times as much to figure that out in CA...

I really don't approach models out of the blue much. My earliest efforts on mudwrestle.us and oilwrestle.us were filmed in a punk/metal bar right next door to a very popular dance club. Our doorman stood out on the sidewalk and hustled the girls stumbling out of the other club, letting them know we paid $50 per match. I don't know what percentage said yes, but we had no shortage of wrestlers. A lot of them came back every week.

Once I started shooting studio stuff, I just ran ads on CraigsList (the good old days) That's how I got most of my models in the 2000's.

Met Paris Kennedy when she moved up to Seattle and I ended up hosting her membership site for awhile. That led to some touring models she knew like Star, Annabelle, and Kym

Once I got my place in Vegas, I had access to the models that other Vidown producers who lived there would offer me. Since I was doing different fetishes than they were, we all had no qualms about making introductions between us. It worked out great for both the producers and the models. when a traveling girl came to town, she could fill 3 or 4 days working for multiple people.

When CL shut down their ad sections to us perverts, I used Backpage for awhile. That's gone now too, so I've been making a few friends on Twitter and various webcam sites. Not great model hunting there though, as camgirls already run their own businesses and most don't work with other producers. And why should they, when they make a ton of cash on cam tips and selling recordings of their cam sessions on various clip sites? I'm mainly interested in getting them to open up Vidown stores and sometimes they also know girls who DO work with producers.

Honestly, for the last couple of years, AEE/AVN has been like 75% camgirls. The porn industry is changing radically and that's kind of making things harder for producers. I probably know 3 times more women who know how to edit video than men these days, because a lot of them are doing their own work and simply don't need or want the extra middleman with a hand in their pockets.

I'm not shooting much right now due to a lot of Vidown and data center projects but thankfully, I can just call up the other weird fetish producers I know in Vegas and get some new girls when I'm ready to rock again. So far THEY don't seem to be having any trouble recruiting.