Not sure if this has been answered but who over "kelsey" was won't be allowed back at this point??

Cool, can you post your drivers license, social security card, birth certificate, routing number, date and amount of your last deposit for the community?

I swear, it's not for anything nefarious, it's just so we know you're legit.

Short of one of the enhanced certification methods presented thus far, this is about the only way we have to deal with this kind of situation. It can't be echoed loud enough: If you see something, say something to the people who can directly address the matter. Many law enforcement entities don't have the best record for handling SA well (or at all, for that matter), they can do things that TOS and logistics don't allow us to do.

Also, paraphrasing something I said in a different thread a few days back, if you do see - or worse, experience - something, reach out to someone who can help and support you. Even witnessing that shit can be traumatic, and while it may be hard to talk about directly, talking about it is so much better than letting it sit and grow inside. Even if it all becomes overwhelming, remember to take some time to be good to yourself.

My dude, someone can express desire for a different system without that system being forum posting your SSN and banking information. We need a downvote button for comments that are mean, dumb, and - my favorite - both ^^. MM, I get your hesitation on the verification bits but hit us with that thumbs down ASAP please

I think that means you may struggle with perspective taking. I'll add that your comment is coming across as perhaps not as rational as you'd like it to; it implies you are reacting emotionally (with exasperation or perhaps contempt) for the victims of this situation. Knowing better than to connect closely with an online stranger should not preclude you from understanding how someone might feel if they ended up doing so. "I don't understand how someone could experience pain if they touch a hot stove because - well, why would they even do that?" is a logically equivalent statement that hopefully illustrates my point here.

I agree with your position: we all need to be wary of internet people. Stranger danger is real. But the social cohesion that is generated in online communities about niche interests is also real, and experienced by billions of people. And that cohesion begets perceived trust. Trust yields exchange and interaction, and positive emotions toward others they connect with. Which, when violated, lends itself to people finding themselves in this situation and feeling hurt.

While your comment implies that the victims earned their betrayal or should have known better, it also emphasizes your confusion that people would have feelings about being betrayed and want something done about it. I hope this cleared things up for you on that front, regardless of whether you feel sympathy for those affected.

Well said, all of it!

I can't recall the last time I felt this betrayed/gutted by something I really felt to be true.
Or by the actions of someone I trusted.

Fantasy! Hell of a drug.

I feel sick to my stomach,

Burn it all down. Nothing is real.

Fuck everything,

JY

Emotional manipulation and related abuse can be pretty psychologically damaging, and it's beginning to look a lot like that was the plan for the "Kelsey" persona all along. All the more reason to take the time, lean on your support structure, and focus on yourself for a bit. You've probably seen it already, but I can't give a strong enough recommendation for Chloe's thread for victims (https://umd.net/forums/victims-of-kelsey), which is the best set-up for healing within the community that I've seen for some time. Use the resources you have available, and working through this will become much easier. Not easy, by any means, but easier.

I won't because there is enough crap going on in here at the moment, and it's not my place to get involved in what is essentially... not my business.
If it was something horrifically illegal, morally incorrect etc, then yes... I would PRIVATELY tell MM.

I highly doubt there are many accounts spattered all over the net that are girls pretending to be men, but the other way around? Masses of them. No idea what kick they get out of it, but it seems be be a thing.

I think people need to realise that humans are not all nice. Take this place for what it is... yes it's a community, but all communities have bad apples. Enjoy the boobies, chat to the nice people and accept that some people are not going to be who their internet persona makes them out to be.

We will be back here again imminently. That is the internet .

Anyway.... I'll get my coat

everything said in these posts are true, and there are a lot of emotions to unpack and heal


it's multifaceted for me. Kelsey Catfish, for what she was, was also my slime therapist. before conversing with her, I was a 20yr or so serial lurker.. too afraid to start a umd account, engage in this community, or find any acceptance or internal peace with myself. She did in the end make me feel seen and not alone, and helped me finally be ok to love what I love, and come out of my shell. so I will very much miss that Kelsey..

but I know on the other hand how much she hurt everyone, so it's a mixed emotion. I feel for you all and hope we can find our peace with this in time

Goodbye Kelsey.

I mean, whether you see it as your business or not, you know of somebody else lying to everyone on the site, so I would say that it's kind of everyone's business. If you don't say something, we're gonna have to go through this whole thing again and I don't think anyone wants that. Surely it's best to just get everything out in the open while we're all on the topic anyway, no? That way we can avoid another massive fallout and just deal with it all at once. Also, how is a fraud deceiving the community not "morally incorrect?"

Oh, Brother.
I'm afraid you have immediately begun to do exactly what I was cautioning about: Making up your mind about somebody and believing you understand them and their capacities and motivations based on the scantest of information obtained from an anonymous forum.
"There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see"

Joe, check out the messy minds section. You can find it under groups. That is the section of the forum for some good mental health talk. I think it would help.

My DMs are open if ya need em

Oh I'm 20/20 baby.

But I'm sorry if my inference about your comment and my attempt to explain the logic of an emotion you said you didn't understand hurt your feelings. "I for one have a little trouble understanding the highly emotional reaction" of your reply so I guess we share some confusion

Not to turn this into a lesson in logic or rhetoric, but your original comment is *not* about making snap judgments. It's about using "caution" with people on the internet, keeping them at "arm's length," and not trusting them to speak or act with kindness/your best interest by assuming they could be "dangerous" (your words). I agree. And I think I'm heeding your caution quite well in my reply. Thanks for making it easy to do so

My "feelings" are not hurt. You're just wrong about one more thing. Why do you imagine I should care what you think?
I don't seek the approval of strangers. You will think what you wish to think, I won't be troubled to wonder why.

Here is a discord you could all do a phone conversation with or set up a moderation team to be guided if the site especially between different time zones https://discord.gg/YJMzZust

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zqnaHDdvh5I

I feel badly betrayed on this. She messaged me about 2 years ago and encouraged me to do WAM related art and stories. I deleted my DeviantArt account and she found me again to re-encourage me to come back. I did. I reposted all my old stuff and got quite a few followers.

I'll be back. Going out to burn everything I drew and wrote.

This has certainly been a weird one.

I've been friends with Kelsey since late 2019 I want to say. She messaged me after I had said that the first Human Garbage Disposal was a custom i sponsored.

We messaged back and forth every so often, and she would try to encourage me toward her style of custom which I never went for.

I'd also thrown around the idea of being a producer and she strongly encouraged me along those lines. In fact, the slimedmodels kelsey directed shoots were filmed at my house.

The idea is that I would get to see what was involved in shooting a scene in terms of prep, setup, and cleanup, and meet models to build up a network, and they get use of a space to film in.

Kelsey lives far away, so her boyfriend would do all the actual work.
The process was kind of annoying because the date kept shifting and cancelling and plan wasn't set in stone, but in the end we found a model and everything happened. Her boyfriend and a model came to my house and he was a great guy, we filmed the scenes and that was that. The people physically present were me, him, and the model.

I'm having a hard time believing he's Kelsey.
I'm trying to recall if I ever got a text from kelsey while he was present or some kind of "smoking gun" but I don't think so.

But everything on that shoot seemed good so I don't think it's like tainted or slimedmodels has to like burn the scene with a hazmat suit. The scenes were still directed to "Kelsey's" tastes which seem to be based around some old gameshow.
(I had no interaction with slimedmodels, it was all through Kelsey)

I'm not really sure how I feel about all this. I did chat with Kelsey a lot, but my interactions with her weren't based on thinking she was the person in her picture. Like if she had sent me the same initial message as a male profile our coversation would probably have been the same, so I don't have any feeling of being violated or betrayed.

That's interesting - thanks for that extra info.

Aside from the whole debate about what "verified" means, this raises a separate question about what it means to be a director, especially when that's used as a selling point on videos. I think most people would assume that the director is present on the set, guiding what's going on.

However, I have some notes about film making (planning out one of my future customs), and I believe that there can be a distinction between the director (who creates the shot list) and the cinematographer (aka DP/director of photography, in charge of filming the scene). So, in theory it's not necessarily a red flag for the "director" to be absent, but in the context of WAM videos I think it's unusual.

I.... I mean.... I just....

100% this is what I would assume, especially in a wam context. Quite often there'll be a scene released by a producer and it gets a good reaction and someone will post 'Hey, this was my custom, glad you all liked it'. What they don't say is 'Hey, I directed this scene' because commissioning a scene is not the same as directing it, and frankly its misleading of any producer to conflate the two.

Interestingly, if the Kelsey is actually the boyfriend, then he WAS on set, which means that the director was on set, but just not in the physical body expected.

Except the problem isn't that the director was or wasn't on set, but the misrepresentation used by said director to recruit talent, as well as to use and abuse people here. Anyone's free to use a false or null identity around here, as I'm sure many do for privacy reasons, but when someone turns that false identity into a character to be portrayed for benefits besides anonymity, it starts edging up to and crossing the line. It causes people to do things they wouldn't normally do or interact in ways they otherwise wouldn't, and that's manipulation. That's where the problem lies.

as a fan of film and filmmakers - from a directorial/producer standpoint, it's an alias-proxy-pseudonym situation. it was amazing work. spot on, well executed fetish material that rang their bells very specifically, and I thought were amazing/hit mine too.

from a personal/representation (and friendship) standpoint...

JY

From a marketing standpoint - a branding standpoint? I am OK with a producer promoting the material/product as hardily endorsed by the model/actresses. I understand marketing (I mean, on a basic level). And there is no question, their passion for WAM, its creation and its psycho sexual pleasures and aesthetics, was real.

I don't really have an issue with a site or brand or Producer using models or personas even as a marketing thing, a branding thing. The selling of fetish material and the passionate enjoyment of fetish material almost HAS to go hand in hand for it to be good or great, and thus competitive in the marketplace. I want my favorite producers to succeed (and, really, even ones I don't buy from - there's room for everyone, and so many of you are so talented and dedicated and your models are so gorgeous and game)

So, I have no real hard feelings, I guess you could say, on that part of things. I was fooled. I don't like to be tricked, but I can accept "Wow - amazing material, marketed really distinctly and personally, passionately made" etc. Every great new technology leans hard into adult material, and it's usually one of if not the most consistently financially lucrative ways that tech is used (from old time loops to VHS to digital etc etc). Marketing/personalizing a product to make it even more attractive and special - you feel like you're bonding with the creator, you're supporting the thing you really love - in the digital age -- all fair game, really.

(But, of course, the flip side of the coin is questions of ethics, intent, representation, privacy etc.)

Anyway, the "Who is the author of a WAM scene? And does that make a difference/should it make a difference?" question is a really interesting topic unto itself. As a fan of movies and books/stories, I think "authorship" is really important and a serious matter.

But, for the purposes of fetish material/this conversation -- does and should it matter who produces vs commissions vs films vs directs a scene?

JY

{EDIT: I just saw that a couple of you have literally said stuff I just said about Who is the Director/Who is the Producer? so, sorry to just blast past that and not acknowledge it! It's a really interesting topic/point}

I don't imagine you care what I think. I know you do bc you keep replying

I feel pretty dumb as well bc I commented to kelsey on numerous occasions about how I loved her ideas and all of that stuff

But?I DO recall after she had been around and booming for a few months and seeing all of the writing she was doing? The blogs and whatnot? I remember thinking to myself "okay-this chick is super hot/sits around writing wam blogs/pays money to get customs and yet doesn't have like? A bunch of pics in their gallery?.strange"
I even asked kelsey if she would want to shoot for the house of mess as SOON as she caught my eyeand I can't recall how she respondedI'd have to check my inboxif it's still there.
But I know I asked her to even in a comment and she doted on about how great that would be and how she would love to and blah Dee dah.
Which? Happens all the timebut? I digress.
I feel terrible for all of you who opened up to this person and had a friendship with someone who is a disloyal, crazy fuck.
Some ppl have too much time on their hands. Truly. And some people are also fucking crazy. Truly.
It isn't your fault. "She" played a good game but? Rich was spot on questioning her.
I felt the same way couple months in. Too good to be true! But I thought "maybe this is the start of a new thing! Girls really showing their love of wamhot ones even! How cool! I wish I had the time to do that and was that hot!"
I'm sure mess master is just reading what we all have to say, doing his research and letting everyone take their time to make a statement on here about their run ins with "her" with some more evidence-and then he will comment on it.
So? If you have more evidence proving it? Or if you were affected by this? Either it be you were lied to or even financially dupedpost it. Or message it to him so he can have all the info he needs to make a call if he feels it is necessary.
Ppl fucking up things for everyone else. Now? It's just another way to be scared of women here on the umd.

EDIT: well now I'm gonna look like a crazy person, because I guess he deleted this post while I was replying. Anyway, I'm gonna leave this up for now just on general principle, but I guess most everyone can safely ignore it.


I dunno how to ask this without sounding judgmental, so please don't take this the wrong way, but: Are you okay? You seem really, really tense (or anxious, if we want to use clinical language).

Like, as far as I'm aware murder is not a new problem that only started showing up once we had specific types of governments or whatever. People have been killing other people for a long, long time, and I don't think anyone here is surprised to learn that it's still happening.

If anything, bringing up the government seems like it only contradicts the point you're trying to make. You're saying, I think, that governments aren't doing enough--that is, you're saying that governments have an obligation to do more (or at least better) than they're currently doing. That's why you think individuals have to take their safety into their own hands, right? Because you think governments aren't protecting people well enough.

But if that's true, wouldn't the same basic principle apply here? The "government" of the UMD has an obligation to the community just like real governments have obligations to citizens. So if we can point at real governments when a murder happens and say "you should've done more," why can't we point to the moderation team here and say "you should've done more"? At the very least, even if nothing comes of it, why can't we have that conversation?

I mean, I know you're trying to help people in the way that you think is effective. It just seems to me like people are already trying to help themselves by pushing for a change in the way the site is governed. That sure seems like a valid approach, both here and when it comes to real-world governments. And, just for me personally, I'd like to see that conversation reach its own conclusion (whatever that may be) instead of being, like, stomped on.