I would remind you that UMD started with lots of mainstream WAM content.

Maybe we should remove the porn contents that do not have enough WAM in them?

While I can understand why MM needs to do this, I am not happy with the fact that mainstream/candid WAM is being marginalized here. To be honest it's been going on for a while, but this looks like it could blow up. Over the last few decades I've noticed:
1) Increased "pornification" of UMD.
2) Less proportion of mainstream/candid content being posted.

Somehow along the way people seem to forget we are not here to see naked chicks...

Before others jump and say it ain't so... it looks like there was a thread about "where should we transition to for mainstream WAM" that got deleted. Why? Can some explain why is that against the ToS?

There could have been other ways to deal with this concern. For example, all youtube links could be anonymized such that traffic statistics won't be tracked back to UMD. We could make the forum inaccessible for people without a registered account. We could also find ways to block search engines indexing.

No offense, but if people are gullible enough to film videos and upload to the internet for all to see, I don't see why they should complain. If people were concerned about consent they should not make it public and also educate themselves. People (especially the younger generation) either don't care anymore or are just ignorant, that's why there's Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and they put their entire lives up for show and amusement. It's not our job to police their poor judgement.

FYI, anything and everything can be a fetish. Pick a random ad. There's a fetish there. Long hair? Jeans? T-shirt? Oh there's a balloon...

So in short, any video you make can be a fetish video.

Just wanted to add my support for MM's changes

as for wam on kids tv shows, as HenryWilcox said I'd rather be potentially perceived as a weirdo who likes women in mess than a weirdo who gets off on kids TV shows. Sounds bad doesn't it? I know it isn't really like that but the key here is 'potentially perceived'

If the only thing that does it for you is candid TV show wam and they mostly happen to be on kids tv shows, fine - go make your own free website discussing them all without the constraints of billing companies rules and regs. Or don't - but don't expect MM to put himself and his livelihood, and the community we love on the line for the sake of your specific tastes.

theres even fetishes for enjoying driving, watching boring videos, watching paint dry, watching the news and cleaning

Everything can be now thats what great about sex and human beings!

When the Saturday Mashup threads were here. We were hovering over the 'delete account' button. We really had to do some soul searching and ask ourselves if this really is the right place for us to be.

The studio right next door to us makes the gunge for that very show. It simply wasn't right to have that discussion on a fetish forum and we would sacrifice our existence here if it were to come back.

As a business, we have to protect ourselves from reputational damage as does MM.

Like probably many websites here, Messyworld is just a small project in our business. We would close the site without hesitation if it were to damage our wider interests. We are not even sure if we really fit in here being a non-adult website (and further moving away from it), but we have been made to feel welcome by MM and the mods and hope we can bring some additional value to viewers here, at least for now.

The moderators here are clearly very serious, professional and responsible and that means that producers, investors, content creators and the forum users can have confidence in this platform.

I did not see that - I assume that pointing people to 'discussions of kid's shows' is also risky for the same reasons as the discussion itself.

As I read this thread I think there are two main points of contention:

1. A specific sub-group can no longer post and discuss their interests here.
2. The UMD is going to die because of (1), or the 'pornification' or both.

As far as (1) is concerned, it seems that the writing is on the wall for 'kid targetted programmes'. Fortunately there are other venues and they'll be found in the same way that this place was in the beginning. Google still works, and you can comment on videos on youtube and elsewhere.
This change will not stop this discussion any more than the ban on linking to P*rnH*b will stop piracy, but it will take it off these servers and keep us safer.

And (2) might be true, it might not - it's impossible to predict the future. What we can predict is that the credit card processors can stop this place surviving in a heartbeat... so MM has taken the decision.

If it's the wrong decision, so be it - and another site can and will take over, just as this one seemed to:



I believe it has been stated. As I said before, MM has made this decision carefully and decided that the risk of losing the site to legal action or payment processor decisions is higher than that of the audience deserting it.(*) If he is wrong (and for the record I don't think he is) then a new site will find it easy to take over.

(*)MM if I'm putting words in your mouth, let me know. This is my understanding from reading your posts here.

One final note - I genuinely think it's great that so many people are contributing to this thread and raising sensible and (for the most part) civil objections. The community here is very strong, and naturally that means that opinions are also strong. The fact that people care so much about this place gives me hope.

I'd also like to add that there seem to be many twitter accounts dedicated to the stuff the UMD is waving goodbye to. Y'all are going to be fine with a little looking around at other places.

Ordinarily I would mostly agree, but as I understand it with the new rules from the billing company the content in question would going forward be harmful to the UMD by making it not worth MM's time to run it any longer and that would be all round awful rather than mildly annoying for a minority

If I implied that your interest was somehow improper, I apologise - that was not my intention. We are talking about the same material.


It's about the perception of having stuff sourced from kids TV on an adult fetish site, that's what's at issue here. In a perfect world anyone stumbling across it (and the payment processors) would understand immediately that you were enjoying the adults only, and had carefully removed all the kids from it - but in reality that's not what will happen.

And yes, it means that the 'Ultimate' part of the name wouldn't strictly be accurate either, but this site has never been (or as far as I know been intended as) the sole repository of all WAM fetish material, or all WAM fetishists.

As I've said before, it's not a decision to be taken lightly and I don't believe it has been.

So can someone explain to me what we do here, if hypothetically speaking they revamp GYOB a show known for gunging adults and the discussion is only about a man or woman being gunged, let's say one forum member comes across this how ar3 the rest of us suppose to know about it?. We could miss quality moments with these new rules.

I have to admit I don't like this and I think it's going to lead to a lot of people leaving this community. It's become way to too PC. I havent once seen anyone comment out kidsgetting gunged on shows.

I'm guessing something must have happened to cause this. As much as I hate to admit this, $$$ pays the bills and keep this site alive. If UMD were to collapse overnight, it would be more devastating to the community than anything else I can think of.

Just want to address one thing here. Some in this thread have pointed the pornification-of-UMD finger at the money making side of the site, namely the download/streaming store and its naughty, naughty producers. But really it began long before that with the ability of every user to post their own pics, and later even their own vids (THANK YOU!) with the only restrictions being that the vid content has to be their own and (loosely) it should be wet or messy. UMD is THE place for those who want to let their messy freak flag fly for the world of wammers to see, and maybe even chat, message, and who knows, even meet up with one. MM really has gone above and beyond in making all that possible for us. And yes there's money involved but that's what makes it all run!

One question. My Little Pony is primarily aimed at adults, right?

The UMD can't be everything.

There is no third party involved in this. It's an obvious-to-some-of-us conflict of interest that has been difficult to find a solution for (those of us whose heads are above the parapet).

It's happened now because it's taken this long to agree upon how this rule will work fairly and consistently - not whether there should be one or not.

If you don't like it then here's your gap in the market to start another site.

Or just get over it!

I speak for myself. I'm glad the site owner has had the courage to address this matter.

Everyone thinks they're an expert on running a community from the comfort of their armchair, of course.

TBH I suspect this change has been in the works for a while - MM isn't the kind of person to knee-jerk react to things, he takes a very calm and considered approach, which is part of why this community has been so successful for so long. We are incredibly lucky to have him running the show, he's done and is doing an amazing job.

Mainstream WAM hasn't been banned. Mainstream general audience scenes are still fine, The Great Race, Glenn Close in 101 Dalmations, all those South American game shows, The Crystal Maze, that Dutch show with the gunge jaccuzi, Japanese things like Takeshi's Castle, all those Gladiator-style shows where people fall off stuff into pools, all are still fine. If some TV station decides to create a new version of Noel's House Party, or even OTT, all fine to link to and discuss here. The only things that have been banned are things made specificly for kids, and that seems perfectly reasonable to me.

The way I look at it, leave the kids-show stuff for kids to enjoy as innocent fun. There's plenty else out there for us adults to look at. Ok, we might miss out on a few scenes, but those scenes aren't meant for us. I've got a thing for modern medical uniforms - but I don't go wandering round hospitals to oggle the nurses. Same deal, basically.

You're really comparing this to a guy who committed suicide by cop? Excuse me if I don't understand the alliteration. So I'm going to use a simple object lesson to put it into perspective.

I'm going to use Mark (WAMTEC) as an example because he is probably single handedly the largest repository of what you would call "mainstream" WAM left alive today. If someone has gotten wet or messy on film, he probably has a copy of it. And if he doesn't he knows more about it than anyone else I can possibly think of.

Example one, here is a free clip on one of his sites from the 90s prime time show Melrose Place
http://www.wamflix.com/video/596d19cd999b94547d8b4567/bridal-wetlook/
Two grown women get into a fight and end up in a pool fully clothed. Nothing inherently sexual about this, the women are actually fighting.

Similarly, you can see links to a recent ad Jennifer Lawrence did for a fragrance commercial. While she's swimming around in a pool and intending to look somewhat erotic. So you could say this was intending to be sexually suggestive.

Third example, some 13 audience girl on slime time live gets slimed. It's a kids show, there's nothing sexual here, and if there is...you need to check yourself in somewhere.

Now even the first two examples have legal ramifications too. Those being that the content owners, FOX, or the owner of the fragrance could force those videos to be taken down, much the same way content owners here BEG, NAG, and PLEA for porn hub to take down theirs.

The difference here is that FOX or fragrance owners could ALSO choose to sue the person who put the content up in the first place while PornHub has some sort of immunity where they can't be held responsible for the actions or content their registered users post on their site (not really sure why yet, but I'm researching that).

Final example. You can find you tube for instance videos of school girls jumping in the pool with their uniforms on for a dare, graduation, or something similar. Ignore all of the horrifying comments for a second and just focus on the video. It doesn't matter WHO put up the video, WHY they put up the video, or even IF the video was intended to be sexually charging. The entire thread could be titled "Man, I remember my girlfriends and I doing this when we graduated uni". It doesn't matter. What matters is that it's appears on a site that sells PORN.

While the video may not be inherently sexual, what matters is that it's appears on a site that sells PORN.

A site that sells content of women jamming chocolate covered dildos up their orifices, or two men jousting in lube with donuts).

And then let's say Epoch, Paypal or someone working for them were to discover that and report it to the authorities, here is a short but hardly conclusive list of things that could happen.

1. UMD get's shut down
2. MM goes to jail for 'child pornography'
3. Any and every single member get monitored for the rest of their lives
4. Certain member become registered sex offenders
5. A Fox news / CNN report on the debauchery and disgusting nature of SPLOSHING/WAM

Regis, you're not a moron, I usually laugh hysterically at your posts and have sincerely missed your absence. But I don't know why you can't see the inherent danger of allowing stuff like this to continue. The road to Hell (or federal prison) in this case can be paved with good intentions and pie tins.

No one is stopping anyone from discussing anything. What IS happening though is that the owner of this space is saying that if you want to do that, you don't have to go home, but you can't do it here. This change is not to punish anyone, rather it's to protect the ENTIRE community at large.

I come at this from a different angle, because (e.g.) I think KCA threads are weird and shouldn't really have a place here. Still, whether you agree with that or not, I think MM has made the point of the policy totally clear. It's an attempt at flak control related to content which a relatively tolerant and sex-positive outsider could show sincere, reasonable concern. So, that's not pointless.

That said, I'd agree the rule looks pretty arbitrary so long as the idea of an "intended audience" isn't clarified. And also, I don't think it's any good to try to run preventative interference out of fear of a hypothetical brouhaha stirred up by politically motivated crazies. To that extent maybe we share common ground.

You've missed his point. He's made it very clear that he's not talking about those clips at all.

I think there's a difference, which is that a relatively tolerant and sex-positive outsider could show sincere, reasonable concern about clips, links, and discussion related to (a), but couldn't do that about (b). And that standard -- basically, "what would a reasonable outsider say?" -- is different from the standard we're both worried about, which is "what would a mob of batshit crazies say?" I don't think it's reasonable to form policy on the "crazy dudes yelling about Szechuan sauce" standard; to the extent that I have any influence at all, I'd push against capitulation to the goob patrol. But I gather that MM was worried about upsetting reasonable litigious people more than the goobers, though if I'm wrong he can correct me.

Anyway, now that we have a relatively clear standard with a fairly clear point, we can disagree about the particular cases and whether or not they fit the standard. So, you might think that a reasonable outsider would probably laugh and shrug at both (a) and (b), while I think they might pause at (a) but not (b). And then we'd disagree. Still, at least our disagreement would have a relatively clear and genuine point. Which would mean the related policy wouldn't be pointless; instead you'd just think it's wrongheaded, or somehow too close to the "no goob" standard.

That's a slippery slope argument and you know it. Show me a precedence where this has happened to another fetish community.

We have always (or for a very long time) had the over 18 rule, which is the only law that has legal precedence. Everything else is preventative and speculative, and I can understand the measures taken. But as much as I understand MM decision, the continued "demonization" of mainstream WAM is to be honest, not welcomed for some of us.

Again, you forget the point that many of us here and not here for the porn. I couldn't care less if the model is naked or clothed. All the "cum shots" porn ads (which I don't consider as WAM) does nothing for me.

And contrary to the many posts here, there was no "long reasonable discussion" on this. I'm reading between the lines that some here think that the community should not be upset, there was writing on the wall, maybe even those rattling the boat are unreasonable?... I login to UMD every week, and this was pretty much a bombshell. It came from nowhere. Suddenly, half of mainstream/candid WAM is banned from UMD without warning. Even discussions of transition plans were deleted. Personally, I felt that the execution could be better managed. I'm sorry, but this is the equivalent of you walking into your office on Monday, and got told you are fired and got handed your box of stuff and told to get lost on that same day.

I will just say we will agree to disagree and this thread should be locked. It serves no further purpose. In the upcoming months, from the contents of the posts, we will be able to see for ourselves what the fallout is. The decision has been made and we can't undo it.

The only consolation prize (unrelated) is that we have seen better/more producers in the mainstream/candid style of WAM in recent years. Definite kudos to PieZone and WalkingThePlank (relative newcomers) and the Moomins for their continued work!

Thanks everyone for the very necessary public debate! I'll just make this long-ass post and move this to off-topic. The TOS changes were long overdue and no decision was made without having specific and general reasons why. It was informed by time spent with my lawyer, months of thought, and years of experience. I'm open to discussion, but the new guidelines are here to stay.

While you surf this site's front end, I live in the backend. I handle every single flag submitted, and I remove content before many of you see it. I routinely remove inappropriate pics, kick actual pervs off, ban harassers at server level. I review logs, chats, inbox messages, and stuff like that all day. I do see exactly how some people misunderstand the conflation of children's programming and wam, and it's getting worse. It would completely irresponsible for me to not take the obvious measures to maintain clear separation.

The world is changing fast, and being more decisive about the focus of this site is getting more crucial by the day. Just a few days ago, Youtube started a policy of protecting child content from predatory comments. https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/youtube-disables-comments-on-videos-with-children/ Good for them, and I don't want them confusing adult traffic from us as being a reason for that. Websites all over are updating their practices and policies because they see the same trends happening and are trying to get out ahead of issues, legal or real-world.

Let's not make it more dire than it is. I'm not running around just kicking people off. I haven't set up a stupid keyword ban. I don't care about producers doing tributes and re-enactments. And I'm certainly not banning discussion of those shows as it relates to how they affected us growing up. That's what this site is for. But we need to work harder to maintain a decisive split between acknowledging our adolescent wam roots, and actively promoting children's content now. The latter ends up inserting us into external situations we have no business being in.

One last thing: It really doesn't help for people to interchange terms like "children's show" and "mainstream" just to leverage more support for their opinion. It might make your argument look better if you provoke ire for something that was never banned, but TV gunge and mainstream stuff is here to stay. We have groups for it. There are real issues to discuss, and conversations go best when we're all starting from the same facts.

Peace,
Messmaster

Just to say can I suggest everyone goes back to Page 3 and read MM's comment at the bottom. Makes things very clear.

That really sums it up at its core. It IS Derek's site. He put 20 YEARS into it and while every single one of us have different opinions and values on most things, the Truth is that if we each choose to be here then we can be reasonably expected to abide by the rules of the forum we are at. If those rules are too onerous or offensive, last time I checked Trump has not built a border wall at the edge of the UMD. So anyone who chooses to go their own way is welcome to go set up a different forum to THEIR desired set of rules, members, content, etc. and try to grow it to become the next UMD (or the next WallowWorld) and best of luck with it- sincerely. But while we are here, it is up to us to accept MM's rules of the forum, IF each of us wants to stay. Many of us squabble and bicker over everything from politics to the preferred color and texture of mud and on what manner of outfits we want to see it on, and whom. But when the guy who pays the bills around here states that there are a new set of rules, well, this isn't a democracy. If you insist that it is, then your only option is to vote with your feet.

I've stayed out of this until now, but one thing a lot of people keep asking is what outside forces influenced this decision and similar ones all over the internet lately.

Are you kidding me? Do you not read/watch the news AT ALL or do you just tune everything out that's unpleasant? The "outside influence" is a little piece of legislation called SESTA/FOSTA and it was passed months ago by the US congress almost unanimously.

This abomination is 100% responsible for the sanitizing of CraigsList, the seizure and shutdown of BackPage, the removal of adult content from Tumblr, the shadowbanning of most adult content posters on Twitter, the reaffirmation of content bans on Instagram and all other Facebook properties, and the massive chilling effect observed on virtually ALL sites that allow user-submitted content. Thanks to this piece-of-shit law, website operators can now be held responsible for policing their sites (contrary to dozens of other laws saying they aren't) and removing all content that the idiots in charge might claim is somehow mysteriously promoting/encouraging/facilitating human trafficking. If they don't or resist in any way, they can be fined, arrested, and sent to prison.

This dumpster fire is completely unconstitutional, but somehow your elected officials decided to jump on the "think of the children" bullshit bandwagon and vote for it anyway. If you don't like what's happening to the free and open internet, you need to contact your reps and senators and tell them about it. If you aren't all complaining, they think they are right and will keep doing stupid shit like this.

It does absolutely no good to piss and moan about your non-existant "rights to free expression" here (this is private property - you have ZERO rights here). Make some noise where it counts - to the scumbags you foolishly elected thinking they would help you and make your life better.

Thanks for the backstory soundguy. Somehow I missed the memo on FOSTA-SESTA. Yes this is bad, now it makes sense as to why MM had to do this.

Except that the meaning and latitude of those rules hasn't been determined, MM is constantly encouraging us to discuss our community preferences and vocally and consistently prefers a hands-off attitude, and reasonable people are capable of sincere disagreement sometimes leading to changes of opinion. I understand the temptation to remind people of the bottom line, I honestly don't understand the automated impulse to end the conversation that way, as if we're trapped in a Cold War sub arguing about the use of torpedoes and the need for a chain of command.

This was brushed on a little already, but with the bondage rules can a model go further than wrist bindings if it is what they want? I know it states that a model has to be able to get out at any point, but as a bondage enthusiast I have already used a variety of things in videos including sleep sacs, body harnesses, collar lock mitts, and was planning g on doing more. Aside from a few photos on my profilethat show my non-wam side (people have asked and expressed curriosity) I try to keep the focus on the mess. I always keep someone near by with either safety scissors or a set of hands to undo buckles.If I play safe could I continue to make bondage wam or at least keep my current content up?