Can we say this is Very Welcome News.
We have been concerned (as you may have read in the producer's forum) about the discussions relating to kids TV on forums which are predominantly adult. We understand the fetish is not about the minors but the overlap is a little uncomfortable at times. It has meant that we have kept a bit of a distance on here, especially as we work with a lot of outside productions with gunge. So well done on a progressive step forward.

We understand that a lot of people are into gunge in a very non-sexual way (that's us). That is exactly what our site, Messyworld, is for. Entertainment with gunge but for adults, and open to light-hearted mild fetish without going 'adult'.

Thanks for making the right decisions and keeping this place and members of the public safe. Good, good, move.

I do not want search engines to pick up on UMD when somebody searches for Kid's Choice Awards Sliming. I don't want some undercover reporter to come on here and misconstrue our discussions and do a scoop on us as pedophiles. I don't want new users coming on here getting the wrong idea. Most of all, I don't want to send 10's of thousands of visitors to these sites and videos that are specifically created for children. That's just a bad look. If you really need to watch these kids shows that bad, they are still out there. You can find them on your own watch them all you want. But I want UMD to be here for another 20 years, and that's not gonna happen if we keep enabling the confluence of new children's programming with our sexual fetish. I mean let's keep it real Regis.


If the show is intended for kids, it is off-limits. But I am deliberately avoiding listing specific TV shows, movies, and tube sites because that instantly turns into a game of cat and mouse and I'm not having it. I am asking the community to think here. It's not hard to tell if it's a children's show or not. American Gladiator is fine. WWYD and those Spanish gameshows would be fine. Kids Choice Awards is clearly not. Fun House is not. Get Your Own Back is not.

We can't control if some kids watch the show, but it's pretty clear if it was created FOR kids. If it turns out that we cannot function without being told specifically what a kids show is, I'll use other means.


I am not banning the discussion of how such shows affected us growing up or whatever. That's why I am specifically am avoiding a "keyword" ban. The point is that we just can't be advocating and announcing and linking and sending adult traffic to such content.


Everywhere. This is site-wide.


Inserting a middleman really makes no difference if the audience still ends up looking at the same clip, right? Same thing for just describing it instead of pasting a link... it's the same thing.

Messmaster

That is not a reason to help them by allowing the kids shows on this site. In fact, it's those people I'm most worried about.


I never said it immunizes us against anything. It cuts off the prospect of sending hordes of people to programming meant for kids. If you think of the larger picture, and how others see us and possibly misinterpret us, that means a ton.


No. A discussion about how something triggered your fetish in childhood is completely different from salivating over contestants on a show that mostly kids are watching. My goal was to have the TOS makes this distinction clear.

Will this be a retroactive ban? E.g. will you (MM) be removing the existing discussions about KCA, or will you just let them disappear off the front page into the archive?

I don't have any strong feelings either way, but it's probably worth giving people a heads-up before their previous posts disappear.

Really? So TV people do know that gungey shows appeal to more than just a slapstick audience...but aren't that impressed? Not quite sure what to make of that. It's interesting, certainly!

I know that. You know that. But the world does not know that, and it's this is how they can see us. This is what I'm trying to avoid.


As a viewer you might not. But for people posting, it would be worth it for us to spend time getting on the same page about what makes it a kids show. If you don't even care, then you don't belong here.


Please don't put words in my mouth or make this about something it's not. I am trying to protect this site and everyone on it from trouble from outside scrutiny by people that don't understand our culture. If we link to kids shows and alert each other to upcoming episodes, the distinction of who is receiving the gunge would likely be lost on opportunistic reporters and casual visitors alike. For them, the context of it being a kids show cannot be erased by any amount of editing or blurring out.

MM

::loud applause::


Possibly...Are pics of kids? Yes? Then they got to go. No? Then maybe they can stay. It's not that hard to come up with a new avatar.


The only things getting "ruled out of bounds" here is 1. Stolen stuff. 2. PEDO stuff 3. Piss and Shit stuff 4. Creeper Candid stuff like "college" girls at the fountains.

Regis, you're more than welcome to create that alternate 'utopia'. I can see it now "UMAPD" Ultmate Minor Attracted Person Directory". I'm sure the FBI would love your assistance. Maybe the ensuing search will also put the Mudbunny thread to rest too.


That's totally fair. Give him a bit as I can immagine his inbox is 20x more of a shit storm than this thread right now. Until then, this will have to do.







That's not quite it either. This is MM's corner of the internet, and he can do with it what he want's to the degree that those who own whatever parts, or control whatever laws he doesn't. The man's kept this place going 21 years now. It keeps getting bigger, and it keeps attracting more and more people. Not all of those people want to see this site keep going. If assholes like Jack Thompson can start a war on video games (albeit a failed one), believe that some self righteous, self flagellating fuck wit will come after this.



Yet, your trailers always start or end with this sultry woman's voice saying "Messyworld.net Girls who just love getting wet and messy". All of your productions are of model quality women, and sometimes in their lingerie. While not EXPLICITLY sexual in nature, you still admit it's a fetish. I mean, what is a 'light-hearted' fetish. You advertise on Fetlife.

Don't take this as an attack either, I LIKE and have bought your things in the past. I'm just saying you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't be fetish and not fetish at the same time.

I actually haven't gotten that far yet. But if it's against our TOS, then I will eventually be removing such posts. Our forum archive goes back 5 years, and since people post more of what they already see, it would only create future moderation issues.

I think that anyone fooling around in a public fountain cannot seriously expect that photographs will not be taken.

On another note I applaud the banning of Childrens TV programmes, particularly as some adults on here were trying to influence the vote. I must admit I was getting a bit disturbed by the event to which some members of this forum were getting involved in this.

Without discounting what you're trying to do, I can tell you straight up that the crowd that wants "mainstream game show mess" has little use for small-time producers trying to replicate that. I mean, there's definitely SOME market there. (PieZone is doing early Nickeloden games, Walking The Plank is doing the Brazilian PoR-type shows, you're doing GYOB.)
But I've heard from countless folks who prefer the "authentic" shows, and I get that. I mean, even a small-time network production spends about $100,000 per episode. No way can any of us come CLOSE to those kind of production values.

Plus, the appeal of most of these UK gunge shows (and, by extension, the KCAs) seems to be a "celebrity" getting messy. Doesn't matter if the celebrity is someone many of us have never heard of. Hot Unknown Model < Drab-But-Well-Known Female Person to that market segment.


Again, not to rain on your parade, but the crossover between fans of WAM productions and fans of mainstream clips is.... not much. I converse with quite a few mainstream fans (both in various posts and privately), and the same people who eagerly track down every new Brazilian pie gameshow or mainstream clip have ZERO interest in the content I produce. To put it bluntly, there's an appeal to many for content that does not feel specifically "made" for the WAM fetish.

And as someone who spent far more on WAMTEC cliptapes than producer vids back in the day, I get that appeal. I also understand exactly why MM needs to put this new TOS into place. And I ALSO recognize that the mainstream-clips contingent feels like they're being pushed even further to the margins of the UMD in favor of producer-driven content. That said, I don't have the answer to make everyone happy, if that's even possible......

I want to make it really clear that I do not think that this is pedo stuff, or that people watching it are Pedos. It's just that this position is hard to defend in a world that that doesn't understand wam, especially if we are sending adult traffic to kids sites and videos and have years of public posts to prove it. I don't want this to turn into an argument where we are preaching to the crowd. We know we're legit. We're just trying to get out ahead of problems from outsiders who don't understand.


I deliberately have not posted a list of banned shows or tube sites. You'd never get to the point of having a complete list, and even if you did, who is going to consult it before posting? Probably nobody except those looking for loopholes in the first place.

I am doing something other sites don't do: I avoid legalese and banned keywords, and instead I ask people to use their brains and actually understand the reasoning behind the rules if not agree. In my opinion this approach is twice as hard but 10x more effective in the long run. I will probably publish an ongoing list of banned sites or subjects for reference, but it won't be part of the TOS.



I don't want anybody to adhere to the rules out of respect for me. Fuck me. I want us to come to an understanding with each other about how the outside world sees this community. Think about how one wrong incident can turn this whole thing into a media circus and draw the wrong attention, and affect everything from our hosting to our billing to... whatever. It's something that I would personally will have to deal with, not you. I am responsible for supporting a lot of people. I don't think it's worth it.

Producers must have Custodian of Records information on-hand for every model in content that they sell here. This necessarily makes content with unwitting subjects off-limits. People who are NOT subjects of the content do not count. If they're in the background, dry, etc they are not the focus.

I've made a thread. https://umd.net/forums/rip-tv-gunge-on-umd

Its sad that the ban has now come in effect, i mean 99% on TV gunge and slimings nowadays is on Kids TV

I can understand alittle, but its a really shame! TV gunge from kids tv got me into WAM in the first place. And now with TV gunge is making a comeback with so many shows (all kids tv) with great celebs getting messy!

We are now banned from talking about them publicly on these forums thread and also banned from talking about these amazing moments where celebs get gunged in private messages too.

It is really fucking sad

But we want to talk about great moments in tv gunge like kimberly wyatt gunging! make a thread about it or talk privately about it to our friends on here! But now we are BANNED from doing that.

Its just wrong! TV gunge is why most of us got here in the first place!

I think what people did on the Mash up voting last year wasn't right... but that was only a few people... Most of us are good and enjoy these type of events calmly and express that in the right way!

WE ARE NOW BEING PUNISHED due to a few people! 99% of tv gunge is on kids tv... we are no promoting underage moments, just famous moments that are going down in history! We should be able to talk about those moments

Just is creating a problem when there isn't one to start with

I actually get this a lot. But it's always in passive voice like there's some invisible force that wants everything to be X-rated. I'm always open to ideas from you, or anyone else, about how we can support all types of content. Otherwise it's just venting and not actionable. I don't make the content; I just make the platform. Hit me up.

MM

I agree Rich, however I don't think that can possibly be UMD's fault; rather it's an effect. How many gameshow posts complain about the lack of content or even worse that "some guy got messy instead!" GASP!! Supply and demand are the biggest factors pushing any market; and in this case "mainstream" clips further to the margin. No one is making them, or if they do, the people aren't wearing wrist watches or getting the right facial coverage. Meanwhile there is more producer created content then ever before.

I mean if you all want more mainstream clips, you all could always do what that Pornhub asshole did where he went out on Bourbon St. and offered "creampies" to extremely intoxicated girls. Shit, he didn't even pay them! You could make a forture!

oh wait...that thread was deleted over issues of consent.

So, why doesn't Rich do that? Well probably because 1. He doesn't want to be arrested for assault, and 2. all the other contractual and consentual things that MAYBE show up in very small print during the ending credits of a TV show! (Also, non of those things indicate that the filming of said show was for the express consumption of fetish pornography!)

The draw of mainstream is that often times some "random" audience member is made to go up on a stage in front of everyone and be made a mess of, on TV no less. It's far more humiliating than anyone's paid model who knows exactly what's going to happen, and it's being filmed by one person (maybe two) and watched by a hundred (only 15% of which paid for the product).

So this logic means that... if we go ahead and link to kids shows and openly discuss them, they'll work... less hard? We'll be safer for it?


The gain is that the UMD will still be here tomorrow. And I don't own Youtube, so the TOS isn't for them. What people say on there is beyond my control.


Now that the concerns are completely clear--legal, billing, external visitors, and otherwise--I'm open to hear from you or anybody, what you else would do about the children's shows if you were me?

MM

Let's not subtly change meaning and intent just to make an argument. That's politics. I didn't ban mainstream scenes, just links to children's shows. In any response, let's keep that clear. There is plenty of other mainstream content out there to enjoy.

MM

You're completely missing my point. "Mainstream" does not equal "public." I don't care if it's the YouTube guy racking up 300K views by pieing drunks on a Mardi Gras street, or the That's Unfair folks getting "random" girls to do messy challenges. They're both producers, although TUTV was explicitly catering to the WAM fetish, and the other guy isn't.

"Mainstream" is the stuff that hooked a LOT of us. The Great Race. The Tommy scene. The "That Girl" pieing. You Can't Do That On TV. Noel's House Party. Etc etc. The bulk of it was NOT accidental, or unexpected, but rather scripted and meticulously planned. That said, all these clips have a combination of 1) extremely high production values and 2) no guarantee that the scene will actually "pay off." And those are the two elements that NO producer can replicate today in 2019.

I'm not arguing against the TOS. I'm just trying to help you emphasize with the mainstream-clip fans who DO feel threatened by these new changes. And responding to their concerns with something like (paraphrased): "Why do you care? There's much better producer content you can buy instead!" Well... It shows a complete lack of understanding about WHY someone would prefer a mainstream find instead.

Think of it like nightclubs. Adult play spaces, no one under age gets in, bouncers on the door. OK, bad stuff happens elsewhere but in a well run club no one under age gets through the doors and anyone causing trouble or acting inappropriately gets thrown out. UMD is our wammers nightclub. As long as it's properly run and sensible policies are set and enforced, no one can blame us for what goes on outside. I think this is what MM is trying to achieve, and he has my total support in this.

This is the exact type of thinking I'm trying to rid from this site. Mainstream does not equal children's TV shows, and conflating the two does not bring us to any closer to an understanding. We love gameshows and even have a Group here for them. Even the first UMD page was a text list of links to mainstream stuff. I am asking people to actually think about what they're linking to.


Then so be it. This was not done for popularity, it was done for longevity. UMD sends a lot of traffic, and the content you post is not subject to prior approval which can leave the site and me quite vulnerable. I am still personally responsible for potentially injecting a lot of fetishists into contexts that were specifically set up for children. Regular mainstream content is different. I don't have any metrics on exactly how much of UMD's visitor-ship is here specifically for discussion of children's shows, and neither do you. So let's do the right thing because that always seems to workout alright.


The popularity, traffic, and visibility of UMD have all increased many-fold in that time. So what we do makes that much more of an impact. Plus we are now in a completely social world where information travels at no speed at all and shit can get out of hand that much faster. It's a different legal landscape if you want to get into that discussion. 10 years ago I wasn't responsible for supporting and paying dozens of other producers. And 10 years ago I didn't have Regis storming off after I removed his post to a brand new female member, warning her to prepare for unsolicited dick pics, only for him to show back up as Darth Bater just to defend fetish discussions of kids shows.


You would, because you wouldn't have to deal with the consequences of dealing with it. UMD will persevere through everything if I have anything to do with it. But with the increasing probability of becoming a target, why would you wish me the exposure? This takes real work. Free speech is not free.


I'm not "broadly" moving anything. This is why I nip away at certain things you can't do, only out of necessity. Rather than just blanket ban all game shows for example, which would obviously be much easier for people to understand. As you can see, it's much harder to give people as much freedom as possible, because they ironically will see it as you as restricting it unnecessarily. Even if you are completely transparent and encourage public discussion, people will still try to imply some secret motive, and that my friend is politics. Let's not do that.

So many members on here have profile pics and Avatars that celebrated TV gunge and shows like that! (kids as 99% of gunge is on kids tv)

TV gunge is a massive and a very important part of this community. Its the ground work for this fetish, nothing good will come from banning it.

I will create a massive disconnect in this community and i fear for this community in the future due to the dangerous precedent this creates

There's wasn't an issue before this TOS change, but there is one now!

The "not broke don't fix it" approach is not always wise in this fast-moving world. Not when it comes to protecting the site and the users on it from challenges legal and otherwise by people who either don't understand or who profit in misunderstanding. We've got to try to be smart and get ahead of problems before they happen. I created this forum in my dorm room and have seen it through 20 years of challenges, but my job now is to put it on the trajectory for 20 more.

Messmaster

I'll correct this every time I see it: TV Gunge has not been banned. Only content obviously made for children has been banned.

If a discussion needs to happen, it's maybe how to come to consensus on what makes it a kid's show or not. But let's not foster outrage for something that isn't even the case.

MM

Let's go back further. 20 years ago this place was just a list of links to other sites. There was almost ZERO legal risk unless MM willingly linked to a site for say...I dunno animal abuse or something clearly illegal. The site has increased not only in size but changed in format SO VERY drastically in twenty years that you can't begin to imagine how much more stress to conformity and rules and regs he has to put up with. Before he didn't sell anything now he's a store. Not only that, he hosts a store that sells fetish pornography, that's more legality right there. He keeps the store running, he fixes problems on the site. He fixes other people's problems on the site. He fixes if someone doesn't get paid. He fixes if someone paid for a product and they didn't get it. He mediates people's bullshit arguments, he kicks the occasional fraudster. Fuck...did I forget anything Derek? Oh, and IF he has the time, he likes to go out for a beer on Saturday night.



Yes, it could be gone in ONE DAY! And get this, if it does, while it may not affect you one single bit, if could have MASSIVE repercussions on the rest of the site owner's life! Did you stop to consider that?

All it takes is ONE media report, JUST ONE, and this place could be turned into fucking pizzagate. And much like pizzagate, it doesn't fucking matter if the information is right or wrong. The media doesn't care about fact checking or being accurate. They just sling slander and libel about because the law has stopped caring about prosecuting the accuracy of someone's accusations and the damages it causes.

If Piers Morgan, Anderson Cooper, or Tucker Carlson say so on their show than it must be true!!! At least until next week when it's debunked. The problem is that next week when new info comes out, it won't be revisited on the media because they'll be too preoccupied examining if a wart on the President's ass is actually an implant placed there by the CIA. Or perhaps someone sneezed on a piece of toast and it looks like the immaculate conception!

You VASTLY underestimate the power of the media. Factual truth, factual lies, it doesn't matter which. Neither mean a GOD DAMMED THING. What you can "prove" in court doesn't mean anything anymore either. Just what two rich people in suits can convince (or pay) 12 morons usually uneducated in a courtroom to agree to or believe. THAT is how the legal system works.




This sums it up nicely, but behind the scenes is shit you can't imagine. And really it's all anyone going to the club really needs to know. But, the Dark Lord of Jerking off want's to know each and every detail for what and why everything happens.

Go visit a bank and ask a teller how many rules and regulations they are responsible for knowing and enforcing that if they screw up, getting fired could be the very least of their problems.

I entirely understand why MM has taken this decision. I do wonder though whether we shouldn't just bite the bullet and ditch the mainstream stuff altogether. Playing devil's advocate a bit but surely there are ethical questions there too, given that this is a fetish site. Is giving consent to a pie in the face on national television comparable to giving permission for it to turn up on here? Shouldn't permission be 'informed'? Or is this something it doesn't pay to think about too much?

OK, so far I've resisted adding my 2 cents to this, but here goes... (edited because it took me so long to write this that MM already replied)


Ignoring the arguing over exactly what constitutes 'a large category' - you're saying that no-one here has ever linked to a children's show, so what exactly are you objecting to? If no-one's doing it anyway, surely it's not a problem to make it official that you can't? Is the problem discussing kid's shows? If so, I believe there are plenty of other forums where that is still acceptable.


I agree that self-censorship can indeed be a problem, but this change is being made deliberately and with a lot of thought behind it, it's not a knee-jerk reaction. If UMD's payment processing gets yanked, the whole show's over. (With the best will in the world, I don't think the forum alone can survive without the stores paying MM for his work).

And yes, an adult being slimed will always be of interest to people here. I don't doubt MM is aware that preventing links to shows aimed at kids will (slightly) reduce the quantity of links and images posted, and discussion of the same - and has chosen to take that hit in the interests of keeping this place alive for the next 20 years.


As he explained above, MM is not doing this because he's received threats, but in order to head them off. (Presumably based on a clear restatement of what the credit card processors allow). In addition to any financial issues, the world is changing, and has changed a lot since 20 years ago - people are now a lot more worried about what kids are exposed to on the internet, and you only have to look at the recent panic over the 'momo' hoax to see how people jump on the slightest thing and turn it into a child protection panic.

Not to mention that if people come across this forum I'd much rather be seen as one of the 'weirdos that likes women in mess' than one of the 'weirdos that jerks off over the Kid's Choice Awards' (because you just KNOW that's how it'd be presented.)


A fair comment - one I respectfully disagree with, but thank you for sharing it (honestly). I very much doubt this will be a slippery slope of banning stuff MM doesn't like or approve of (he's always been a benevolent overlord so far ) but I'm sure we'll all be on the look out for signs of him becoming a colossal dick...tator...

And there are other forums, sites and avenues to share this information. MM has decided that this will not be one of them. If you don't want to play by his rules, you're welcome to use those (either instead or alongside this place - it's not either/or as some have presented it).

TL/DR; This is an adult site with a store attached. If that is to continue, we need to accept that we have to sever ties with anything 'kid-related'.

This seems right, because if you define it in a reasonable way then a lot of the concerns about mainstream content don't really arise.

Like, for the sake of argument, if we said that some piece of media comes from a kid's show "if its main cast is mainly made up of minors, or if it has a studio audience has a significant number of minors", then it would just broaden a rule against showing clips of minors that all reasonable people here already agree with. It would also exclude the KCAs, which I guess was the inciting incident.

Mind you, I only include that interpretation as an example of how we might start to think about the issue. I admit the interpretation would not actually fit the "no kids show" rule, since it ignores kids shows that are made up entirely of adults (and, less importantly, excludes adult shows made up of kids). But I'd be interested to hear if it does any work in scratching the itch that is bothering MM and other folks.

Wait, does that mean Regis is back...in pog form?
(PS, Mrs. Bee told me this morning "I think Regis is back" cuz she could tell his writing style-syntax & diction.)

Honestly, this TOS doesn't really interest me since it seems pretty clear-cut that kid shows and fetish stuff shouldn't mix (I'm a parent so that'll slant my views). I just hope there's a crackdown on fake avatars/profiles, people pretending to be something they're not. Maybe that's half the internet, dunno. Otherwise, carry on.

Don't see what the big deal is. It's not hard to understand.

Discussions about kids TV shows are taking place on a forum where most of the content contains porn, naked people and overtly-sexual discussions. It's just an incredibly terrible and disgusting look, even if the underlying discussion doesn't cross into those areas.

If you want to discuss this type of mess, head over to ECGunge or TellyGunge which are both far more coy about the fetish aspect. ECG is all private if you don't have an account and TG has heaps of this content going back years. They're both about as active as the mainstream threads on here anyway.

Honestly this forum contains so much producer-related/sexual content that I'm surprised mainstream clips are still allowed at all. If some "normie" finds out their pie or slime video has been linked from ECG or TG and they go there, they'll just find some weird site posting messy clips of people. If they come here, it's basically a porn site they're going into. Add content not aimed at adults into the mix and it's even worse.

As others have said, you can't replicate this content by just buying producer videos. People will be affected by the changes (myself included as I solely am interested in mainstream clips). But the discussion and content has to occur in the right environment.

I'm nowhere near as active here as I once was, but I still lurk off and on quite a bit and have been around here since the beginning. I get the reasoning behind what MM is trying to head off at the pass here, and I will just add the friendly reminder that UMD.net got its start because a previous site called WallowWorld screwed the pooch over much the same thing. As the catch phrase from Battlestar Galactica went, "This has all happened before, and this will all happen again." This place has grown and lasted 20 years now. It has gone through plenty of changes over those years, and it will survive this rule change. What it *might* NOT survive, however, is the potential shit-storm that could rain down IF this site got caught up in the same type of thing that killed off its predecessor. So for whatever its worth, I support the reasoning behind why MM is calling for this and I think most of the regulars here also value this place enough to not want to see it come to an end over something that could be implied from outside with a label that does not reflect who we are and what this is about. The core of these changes appears to be about protecting children and non-willing people from having something forced upon them without consent. I don't see where that becomes a bad intention on MM's part. Finding the "how" of doing so seems like something a bunch of reasonable adults should be capable of doing together, IMHO.