But I thought you agreed with us.

Chris, if Penny's OP sounded like a condemnation, that's only because that's probably what it was intended to be. I will withhold judgement on MM's approach, and I'll not speculate on his motivations or personal inclinations, but Penny was absolutely right in claiming that the way it was handled caused harm to the community. Leaving the original thread open for "discussion" gave you and your ilk a platform to jump in and drag the whole thing down with misogyny, victim-blaming, derailing, and bad-faith arguing. You are literally a living example of the problem, here.

If there are people who still sound angry about this, it's only because they are, and they should be. Your anti-contributions to all this have made damned sure that we can't ever go back to pretending to be a nice, friendly community. Because it isn't anymore, and maybe it never really was. Your continued presence here is a constant reminder that victims ARE NOT SAFE here. If this happens again - and it probably will - you or someone like you will inevitably shit it up again with attempts to protect abusers and criminals by re-victimizing the people who have already been hurt. We can't forget that. We WON'T forget that, because it shouldn't be forgotten. We have to protect our own. From you.

This is not at all what was said. She links to her Twitter from her own UMD profile for all of us to visit. https://umd.net/pennybanks It's where she is expressing her unfiltered views on this site and me especially. There are as many people here demonizing me as supporting me, and I don't care... they can all see what she is saying. She won't post here, but I still feel she should be heard.

I quoted what I agreed on.

I will just say I think it was in poor taste MM.

I appreciate where you're coming from, and please don't take this as anything personal, but please do not police content just because you don't understand or agree with the appeal like quicksand, bondage, power play, breathplay, etc. A lot of women enjoy those things too (both giving and receiving) and it's not women-hating to be into things like bdsm, edge play, and predicament play.

Mastercard already limits what we can do because of their infantilizing policies regarding consensual, legal content already and I'd hate to have to wade through more of that as I'm sure many others would too. I also love gags, bondage, and other fucked up shit in a consensual context or just as a fantasy, and I def don't hate myself.

As has been illustrated with this case regarding Leon, it's not the content being filmed, it's the actions of those filming it. Things like this can happen on any set or any workplace. I just don't think scrutinizing content from already marginalized expressions of sexuality are the way to prevent it.

I don't get it. She's linking her Twitter to UMD. I'm linking UMD to her Twitter. *She* linked her UMD to her Twitter.

She knows everything about how things are run here as she's seen all our internal notes for years. I still respect her cause because she's a spearhead for women's rights. That's why I made her a mod. Yet I feel she is being disingenuous with what's being said over there. I obviously have a love / hate relationship with Penny, and I think it's important for people to see what she's saying, for better or for worse.

Sure, but her having a passive link to her Twitter in her UMD bio is not the same thing as you making a post in an emotionally charged thread linking to said Twitter, while also accusing her of planning something against UMD. Even with the best of intentions, you have to consider the possibility that such a post might have unintended consequences, like inciting a mob of angry UMD members to go and start a much more public drama with her over on Twitter.

As a person, you didn't do anything wrong. As the site owner, it's in your best interest especially to de-escalate potential conflicts, and I think you linking to her Twitter in this specific context had the opposite effect.

I don't care if you don't like being lectured to or condemned. You have to deal with it, since you're the the biggest source of the current problem. Yes, I'd say you've managed to make yourself even worse than Leon in this case by corrupting everything around you with your hostility toward people who HAVE NOT EARNED IT. You've taken a bad situation and done everything you can to make it exponentially worse.

Not only that, but you keep falling back on the same, absolutely awful non-arguments.

- "Bring proof." Done and done. VAVAVIE brought receipts - their accusation can be backed up by publicly-available sources. Penny brought receipts (https://twitter.com/PennyBanksWAM/status/1584683684610727937 - I figure posting the link here can't do any more harm than MM's link upthread). Just because you don't like the proof doesn't mean it's not there. It just means you're bad for these forums.

- "Witch hunt." Once again, textbook bad faith argument. Go after the people bringing up problems so you don't have to deal with the problems themselves.

- "Beyond a reasonable doubt." Well, is this a court of law or isn't it? What standard are we working with, here? Oh, I forgot - it's a standard you don't have to be bothered with, but that no one else can live up to.

OK, that's right about the line, there. I've tried reporting. I've tried behind-the-scenes explanations for why lchris001 is dangerous to the community. I and others have stated over and over again that the nonsense I'm having to respond to here should NOT be tolerated. So I have no other choice but to do this openly. MessMaster, this is a public call for you to take action against lchris001. He is a poison in the heart of your forums. He is proof, as long as he is allowed a continued, unmoderated presence here, that UMD is not safe for victims of sexual abuse. He has no interest in facts or logic, but only his ability to be a petty bully and abuse enabler. He has made it abundantly clear that he has no interest in the health of the community, but indeed has pushed it ever closer to ripping itself apart.

Show Penny that she's judged UMD too hastily. MM, I told you in a DM that my only priority in this matter was the continued safety of the victims of crime and abuse. You told me that you loved the post in which I made that clear, in my rejection of attempts to attack and undermine a whistleblower whose accusation is as verifiable as it gets. Now we have before us someone who is doing that and far, far worse.

This is the time to prove it.

But is it the same thing as her repeatedly making emotionally charged threads on her Twitter about UMD?


Absolutely, but to me, this crowd has been evenly divided. If anything an accused person would want to bury the link to some site that's all about reporting them. I'm all for it to be publicized. I had no reason to think somebody would go over there and harass Penny. I would expect agreements and disagreements just like on here. And for the link I believe she's reporting us on, some people might even join that, I don't know and I don't mind.


I linked to it knowing full well that 50% of people would be with her, and 50% would disagree. This is her thread. If I'm wrong I'll say I'm wrong, but I fully defend my decision to link to her Twitter.

Against my better judgement, I am going to stick my 2 pence on here.

I thought politics in the UK was in disarray, but this community is currently doing its best to blow that out of the water. I've been passive on here for years but active the last few months, and the reaction on here has done more to encourage me to leave the community than the act itself.

There are bad apples or people who make mistakes in every community. Cutting that out quickly and appropriately is positive. I've seen the likely collateral to this and it is unfortunate, but I suspect a heavy hand is better than a weak one. I do think a mistake was made here by MM by opening the conversation for a convicted sex offender to put their side across. They should have been expelled, then the thread unlocked in my opinion. They had the opportunity in a court of law to put their side across and waived that opportunity (as I understand it). Sure, open up the conversation for the community to discuss whats happened, but I don't agree with the reason given for re-opening the thread. I'm not trying to haul MM over the coals, I'd hate to be in the position of single handedly trying to police a social network, but without constructive criticism how does this community grow?

I we can't unite behind "models (generally women) should be kept safe on UMD" then what can we unite behind? Can UMD achieve that single handedly, no, it's a community after all, as far as I understand it we all have a part to play. And of all the points Penny makes (other than we should be thinking of the victim here over anyone else), where is this site left if all of the content creators vote with their feet? I'd guess cash strapped and quite boring but what do I know? Yes, a representative from UMD isn't present at every private shot, but this should still be the first thought and any little that could be done should be considered. I'm not pretending I have all the answers, because I don't, this is difficult.

So we can all keep bickering, point scoring and scare off all of the content creators and new talent or we can try to take stock, learn and grow from here. So are we going to unite and survive or divide and die? Because as someone who hasn't been active here long it really does seem like crunch time. And it would be a massive shame to have only just found my feet here then feel like cutting all ties is the best move.

Just following your lead on the personal attacks. You haven't posted anything at all except personal attacks and taunts since you first started in on this issue. If the only way forward I have is by pointing out just how bad you are for and to the people around you, then that's what I'll do, while hoping that eventually this site's administration will see reason and deal with you appropriately.

No, mm, in taking no action when faced with cold hard facts: you knew about a convicted sex offender and this is where he works and operates, you supported him and let everyone else be at risk.
There's nothing more to say on that.
It shouldn't take women to collectively jump on here to tell you why keeping him here is a bad thing. It shouldn't take 'community discussion, because the legal system convicted him and made that decision to give him the sentence they did.
In taking no action, you told the women here that its okay to be a sex offender on UMD, and we don't matter.

This is not going anywhere, so I will propose a truce. I believe you receive a PM from MM to knock it off. So let's part ways here.

Stop complaining about politics when generally people aren't doing that...you're the one who keeps bringing up being red. No one cares if you voted for Trump that has nothing to do with the subject.

That article may have said what you said, but let's not forget that he also pled guilty and then changed his story a few times on here. Maaaybe I might have bought his bullshit but not when I started seeing his story start flipping.

Just wanted to note that the thread was left open so the whole community could have a voice. I didn't do it so that a "convicted sex offender could put their side across." That said, leaving the thread open has given him a rope, and he has done with it what he would. The community was able to watch, and now we have a better consensus than if I would have just shut the whole thing down. We are now better prepared to deal with such a situation in the future. And you know that if I had locked that thread, the entire community would have accused me of covering up for Leon!

If I can bring a little perspective. This news has blindsided us all. But jeez it's only been days. The incident was years ago. I've been doing more than 16 hours a day dealing with this all weekend, and a decision has been made. I think I acted as quickly as I could while trying to do everything right.

There was action definitely taken. There were two or three days where I was talking constantly with people on the backend. I can't count how many of you I've been responding to, it's a blur. I heard so many sides of the story and it's how I really learned what was going on. That's action that you don't see, but I was also updating the threads to let people know I was on it. Sorry if you didn't see those replies



Please don't take the delay as me advocating for Leon, or me having to be "convinced." Most of it was figuring out who else was going to be affected, who else had ties with him, how to wrap up business affairs, what would happen with policy, and how to communicate the situation to the community in a way that people wouldn't pick it apart and it wouldn't set bad precedent. It's no small feat to try to get this right while inbox messages are coming through faster than you can respond to them. There is a lot to disassociating with the largest wam producer ever and their many moving parts. I apologize that it took as long as it did, and from what we all learned, this can be handled much more quickly if it happens again. That's part of what the discussion was about.

Yeah you would have been screwed no matter what...and you would definitely have been accused of covering for him. I can't see what's the big deal about just taking a few days and trying to get it right instead of quick. Everything was public so people could see what's up.

Yep, fully understand and agree. Like I said, I'm not trying to haul you over the coals. I'm just adding my perspective and what affect it may be having on relatively junior members of the community (although I can truily only offer my own opinions). What's unfolded has kept me up all night (6.30am UK currently) thinking about what to do on this issue. You'll be overwhelmed with information currently, and my comment was intended to be constructive criticism and a genuine view of what's going on in my head.

I can see the "let them talk themselves into a corner" argument, and the "you've cancelled him" counter argument so you're never going to win in everyone's eyes. Was just meant to be a consideration for next time around when this happens again in (2, 5, 10, 25) years. The unlock message said something about giving them a chance to put their side across, but it was probably written hastily without expecting this level of scrutiny.

I had hoped the take away from my rambling was "can we stop bickering and work this out together".

It sounds like you believe MM knew of this before the rest of us did. I don't believe that is the case. I feel like he has been blindsided by a story he was kept in the dark about and has been trying to deal with the fall out and consequences. I don't envy him being put in this situation but he has been working on dealing with it and attempting to update us as he did. He took action and by no means allowed Leon to continue here.

He's right about Depp and Heard, will take you two seconds to Google.

A small reply from a group host and site admin:

I know everyone is tired and I know my post will fall upon deaf ears, but I feel that everyone should chip in on this discussion.

First off, I wouldn't get upset at MM for the seemingly delayed response time. This site really is a one man show; and most, if not all the decision making is up to him. In the end regarding the situation the right call was made in my opinion and that should be celebrated.

Second, please stop with the fighting in the chat. You know who you are.

Finally, I was at first very skeptical about not locking the thread, however it actually seems like it was the best move in the end as the statements made by those accused certainly worked as the nail in the coffin for their actions. More than just one user was exposed as accomplices and it was really a shocking story to see unfold. The court of public opinion is not in favor of those who are on the receiving end.

Remember that UMD is a commercial site and forum. With this, opinions can't be codified. In the past I've certainly had my bouts with users over politics or other issues.

In this situation there was a separation of right and wrong. In the end the decision was made and I think it was the right one. Bad opinions shouldn't be deplatformed immediately, slight amount of skepticism should be drawn in anything. Following this debacle I really see how right and wrong are truly separated in the eyes if the public when it comes to arguing your case.

Please continue this discussion in a private message. These comments are offhand and diluting the purpose of the discussion. You have been warned before and consider this a second warning.

Two to three days in the background isn't good enough.
If its an immediate conviction, you shouldn't have to umm and ahh about the effects.
You paid no concern to the victim and allowed him on here for months... MONTHS.
Nothing says 'we don't care about our models' than that

Messmaster found out about Leon at the same time as the rest of us, there hasn't been a months long cover up, apart from by mostwam and Leon themselves


Edit to add - Leon said himself he purposefully kept it from Messmaster.

Totally understand and respect your thoughts and opinion here, but just wanna say in MM's defense, that this was not as clear of a situation when it came up on Friday as it is today.

And literally the only reason it IS a clear situation today is because the conversation (albeit a very painful and at times horrifying one) was allowed to take place instead of being locked.

Yes, it got incredibly ugly and depressing and disappointing along the way, and from a saftey standpoint, in an ideal world, there would be take fast and decisive actions when obvious wrong doing is brought to light. But that isn't how this situation went down.

On Friday, a user made the post claiming Leon was convicted of sexually assaulting a model. He included a link to the court report, but due to concern over the victim's privacy (and Leon's), that link was removed while the mod team and staff discussed the best way to handle.

Over the next several hours, more info started to trickle out, but none of it could be substantiated at that point. Then the link was re-inserted into the original post, and we were able to get our first clear picture as to exactly what was being alleged.

It wasn't until Saturday that Leon finally addressed the issue and confirmed that he was in fact the person in the report and did in fact plead guilty to sexual assault. HOWEVER, he also claimed that he was actually innocent of that crime and gave a handful of (terribly constructed and ultimately untrue) reasons as to why he chose to plead guilty to a crime he didn't commit.

People then began to poke holes in his story, and he continued to defend himself in subsequent posts, changing the story a bit, and making more claims to support his supposed innocence.

People continued to question his subsequent statements, and his ever-changing story continued to unravel throughout the day, until ultimately Saturday evening we got an admission, but one that was coupled with claims and assurances that several steps had been taken since the crime to make sure that something like it never happened again, including putting protocols in place to make sure the models felt safe.

People started to question those assurances, and over the course of the next few hours, it became clear that either no such protocols had actually been put in place, or the ones that had were completely unacceptable and ridiculous (like somehow he thought it was ok to not inform models that he was a convicted sex offender before working with them ). At this point, it was Sunday.

Now I don't know what was going on behind the scenes, and I don't know how many moving parts MM & Co. have to deal with on even just the backend side of removing the site's largest content producer across 7 different download and streaming stores, but, even if we are to assume that MM has no life outside of this website and spent his entire weekend on this issue (the former of which being impossible, the latter of which being quite likely), I still think it is remarkable that less than 24 hours after having (what I would consider) certainty of Leon's guilt, a stern but fair verdict was handed out and all of his stores are gone.

Like just the logistics of that to me are insanely impressive, not to mention the thought and consideration that had to have taken place behind the scenes for and with all of the affected parties involved.

But I do totally get where you're coming from, and I do think a lot of what you're saying is spot on.

I just think the overall process is a lot more complicated than we would like it to be, and also that having the discussion about it all (albeit one that included many ugly moments) is the only reason we were able to ultimately discover and then expel a convicted sex offender from our community.

I also think that there was, and is, a lot of learning and understanding that came from that discussion thread, and even though it came at the cost of a lot of pain and stress, this is a discussion forum, and I think it's purpose beyond helping us all jerk off, is to provide community, and opportunity for learning and understanding, through discussion.

There were many many times throughout the weekend where I thought about leaving here (and this fetish in general), but I'm really glad I stayed, and I'm really proud to be here, where we ultimately landed.

I also totally understand Penny's feelings, and totally support her decision to do what is best for her mental health.

Apologies. I was wrong on this.

However. It doesn't change the fact that he decided not to protect models first. Its about the victims. And in allowing the decision to community debate, he ignored the victims

Several things:
A. National ugly mugs, look at the website. Its a support place where models can get help. Why would you even assume she'd 'report' this whole website to them? They don't do website takedown. As you said you don't know what if is, so perhaps taking a moment to read the website before inciting people to riot against her may be a good idea.
B. Where did you even get this information? Because her talking to someone else about NUM I can't find anywhere publicly

Also, directing people specifically to her twitter will have just incited the masses to go send hate to her, and as such, her profile is now private.

Your actions have consequences here. And you seen to be overstepping. It's bordering on harassment and cruel. She was an admin here. You may not like that she has a different opinion to you about the safety of people, and the models who, without, there would be no content for people to download.

Woah! That was clearly not my intent. The same people who would have gone there were the same people she was already here talking to in this thread. This is Penny's thread.


I actually saw it in an inbox conversation between VAVAVIE and Penny after I got a flag about the identity of VAVAVIE. If someone raises any such a suspicion on any other user, I always run checks on inbox messages, spider IP addresses, and cross-check various logs to determine if a person is really someone else or defrauding our users in any way. As site owner, that's what I'm required to do for due diligence. All admins can see this flag activity on our backend.

I don't think the flag was raised because of his position on anything but rather due to the sudden burst of activity from an account that had been relatively dormant until now. That always gets flags. But VAVAVIE turned out to be completely genuine far as I could tell (and later we had some good inbox conversations).

Anyway this was on Sunday that I saw the link but I finally decided it might be important to let our members, and especially producers, know that UMD may possibly be probed by this agency or whatever they do. It does seem like Penny has it out for UMD now, so I thought it would be irresponsible for me to hold that back this information, even though I have no clue if Penny is actually doing anything with it.

I truly did not have an agenda of sending an angry mob to Penny's Twitter. The only people who would have seen the link are the folks reading her thread right here, and I don't consider them an angry mob.

And let me say this to Penny: Whatever you think of me, I'm not your mortal enemy. Though we're at odds right now, we're still on the same team, at least when it comes to knowing the importance of protecting people. I know all this is an ongoing trauma to you, and others too. I need to keep reminding myself of that. Take care of yourself.

I am a little confused as to why you felt the need to share information from inbox messages between members, about a "harassment site" that it's clear is anything but, but is a site to help people get support in *the exact sort of situations that have happened* if you were only checking to verify that the user was who they claimed to be? What does this add to the discussion that's "beneficial to us all"?

This does not feel very safe, honestly. This appears to be real harm you are actively choosing to do, whether this is your intent or not (and I do not believe it is, to be clear - I think you are just not aware of the hurt this is causing).

I'm not holding out much hope that this won't be dismissed as gaslighting again, or for people to claim I am simping or white knighting. Your actions here have caused harm, intentional or not.