I have been around producting WAM movies since 1991, back then it was rare to see bare boobs messy, let alone bottomless. Over the years as new producers and more models have come into the scene things have got a lot more raunchy. Now its not uncommon to see masturbation, BJ's and fucking in WAM movies. When I started shooting WAM there were a few traveling models who were happy to do WAM, some were great, some were just terrible, just were miserable during filming and just wanted to leave with the money. Some loved the experience.

Back in 91 if I had seen WAM fucking in a Video I think my dick would have popped off my bod LOL So you newer people to the UMD are spoiled. There are a LOT more girls happy to do WAM than there used to be too be. Rob Blaine and I had to troll the local strip clubs to find models willing to do wam, cost us a fortune! Models (Strippers) wanted a LOT of money to do a scene for us just topless, I remember Rob paying more than $300 an hour for the hottest looking girls. Had we lived closer to a major city sure we could hire Porn Stars, but back then they charged well over $1,200 per scene. Today I can call one of 3 agencies in my area and have a hot looking woman on my door step ready to do close to anything within 24 hours, fees are a LOT lower too, most girls/fetish models charge less than $100 an hour, even less than $500 for a day rate.

So my question is considering the 20 year difference what has changed? Are women now more desperate for money? Have morals plunged? Are women just a bit more open minded today? What do you think? Is it social media showing what other women do? Female UMD producers please tell me....

Just curious....

Phil

I doubt it's moral as there has always been xxx porn. Some things that have changed the scene to me include:

1. More openness to kinks.
2. More information and ability to find them.
3. Better and cheaper filming equipment leading to more producers and cheaper shoots.
4. More producers means more options, drives down prices as have to compete (models and selling).
5. There may have been a change in how porn is viewed, less seedy and better protection for models etc meaning more people entering the job market, pushing down prices. This would be a moral-shift in the populous, not just women.

I am sure there are professional models that still command high prices, but if there were none years ago (or you couldn't just call up/find on the net) then it's supply and demand so they could charge more.

My guesses anyway.

Always remember that not everyone wants this. For some, enjoyable clothed WAM is amazing, and really sexy in itself (yep, that's me). I hate the really "thrusty" sex stuff, it holds no appeal. But it's an interesting point you raise and I hope all of the ladies involved are looked after and not exploited.

Interesting. Yes I agree there are all kinds of variants and types of preferences that can be categorized as WAM. And yes the world has changed in the last 20 years as far as communications go and indeed filming costs have dropped so its now in the realm of anyone who can afford a $300 camera from Best Buy.

Indeed I have seen a lot of Photo's and film from very early on in the 20th century of not just WAM but other fetishes. Some have made there work a lot more public than others but yes its always been around. Back when Betty Page was shooting S&M type stuff its was taboo, but behind bedroom doors a lot of people were into it, WAM too.

My comment was about acceptance. I am 63 years old and I have had a girl Friend/Wife since I was 14 and yes I was into WAM when I was 14 so over the years WAM has become so much more acceptable, back in the day I was a lot more cautious about suggesting a WAM session with my partner. Would probably feel the same way about suggesting any kink, S&M, Bondage etc. Today its much easier not only to suggest it to a partner but also to Models who work for producers.

I would be VERY surprised if any WAM model felt like she was exploited. Its all voluntary and well paid work. In fact I would go one step further whn choosing models, I tend to re-hire models that have fun and enjoy their WAM sessions, film is very revealing when reviewed, its easy to tell when a model is having some fun rather than just after the money.

On the whole the WAM fetish is in a much, much better place these days. As a Mud guy (harder to shoot) there are several producers making awesome Mud Movies, Jayce/Ariel, MessyGirl and Dave at MPV come to mind.

Wow, Phil, you are the first producer I've heard say it's gotten a lot CHEAPER to hire models for WAM videos. Most producers who speak on this topic complain a lot about how much more expensive models are now than they were 5 to 15 years ago! Leading the charge on these complaints is SStuff (who tends to blame this on all the money models can now make on social media as influencers) but plenty others have commented on it too (Anglefan is another who springs to mind.) Then again SStuff shoots very largely non-nude videos, and so he's looking at a totally different set of models than you are. SStuff has said that in his early days, 10-15 years ago, he used to pay most of his models roughly $50 per scene, and the average cost now is many times that. (To be fair, he now goes, on average, for more "hot model" types and generally asks them to wear skimpier outfits than the early days, where he was more reliant on more "girl next door" types who sometimes didn't show much skin, but even then a lot of them did bikini scenes.)

Phil, In our 15+ yrs of production, we haven't seen much change at all. What we paid models back then is what we still pay today. And I'll only say that it's definitely below $300 for a day. For us, it's a matter of shopping around. Our view is, there are plenty of models out there and some will accept our offer. There have been models that wanted a lot more than what we were willing to pay, and in that case, we politely turn them down. We've had to turn down plenty of models because their rates were higher, but we've never had a shortage of models. For everyone we've had to turn down, there have been others that accept. We did try to hire a couple of strippers and it's been our observation that they do charge more because theres a different situation there. Strippers get approached for a lot of things, often it's typically porn related. They also make decent money on tips, so for them, they feel that if you want them to work for you, and you appear to highly desire them, they figure you'll pay almost anything, and some do.

I've learned that I'm not that desperate. Instead, I just look at it like this. I'm willing to pay, if you're good and you like what we do, we will hire you again and again. We don't pay a lot but we have lots of work available. Most of the modes who appear on our site are repeat performers. They won't get rich, but they like what we do.

I don't think morals have plunged over the years. It's funny but over our 15+ yrs, we never had a problem finding models who would do more risque work, but we wanted to keep our site a bit more classy

EdwinR

I'd say the only change in morality is that people in general are a lot more honest and open about things nowadays. I remember back in the 90s discussions on wam forums were full of "what's the best way to hide your collection from your wife", with elaborate schemes involving zip drives (remember them?) with techie utility stuff in the top few directory levels and then the wam collection burried eight layers deep. I remember a few years later there was a meme about "the best way to hide anything is to bury it under seven layers of horse porn" which always reminded me of it.

Now we have active campaigns supporting the rights of sex workers and the old "good people don't have sexual thoughts" garbage is finally getting thrown in the trashbin where it belongs. But with openness comes far more competition, as many more people are quite happy to do kink / fetish work on the side, which has inevitably lowered what models can charge for a scene.

In my case what we paid models stayed the same for the first 15 years, which meant in real terms it got cheaper, however for the first seven years we were making a loss overall. Nowadays we make a small profit, which in normal times all gets ploughed back into model fees for more scenes. This spring past I increased all our standard scene rates as we're now making enough money that we can afford to, so Maude, Honeysuckle, and Lady Jennifer all got the new rates for this year's scenes.

Generally if a model comes here for the weekend she can expect to take home a few hundred quid (more if kink or nudity is involved), and she'll also have all her costs paid, including full travel expenses (fuel or train tickets plus meal allowance if coming long-distance), and all meals, snacks, drinks etc while she is here. We provide all the outfits, including underwear etc - I'm hyper fussy about clothing so we provide everything so we can be sure it's right. No-one will ever get rich off what we pay but they get an all-expenses-paid trip to Yorkshire, get to have a lot of fun throwing mess about, and half-decent money to go home with.

And no, we've never been short of models, and most who have shot with us come back time and time again for more.

I remember in Rob Blaine's book he said at first he tried hiring strippers but not very successfully because they already had decent money from stripping, so he realised the key was to find women who needed the money, and so started recruiting students, Austin being a university town. Though I think he also said one of his models was a waitress from somewhere he took some girls after a shoot, and another was an assistant in a dress shop where he took a model to buy outfits.

Interesting, I also suspect there is a difference in what is okay when comparing the US to the UK. I have never shot fully clothed WAM basically for the reason that WAM is a turn-on, it should probably include sex if its turning one on. Certainly in my private sex life if a G/F and I do WAM I am probably going to get a hard on, if that happens I am gona want sex. In my personal experience British, German, Russian and Dutch girls are much more open minded about fetish's. American girls are okay too, but the % is a lot lower.

As far as models go obviously I am very professional and I don't want anyone on set supporting a stiffie on set LOL or making any suggestions of improper behavior towards a model, however I believe as this is a turn-on for most of us watching such things so some sexuality needs to be involved. I wouldn't pay more than $50 an hour for fully clothed either, but back in the day Jordan Kingsley for example (who is a friend) still wanted $800 a scene for nudity and fucking a guy, they also require a recent 7 panel STD test too that I am required to keep on file legally.

You are right about strippers, already quite well paid, but in small town Austin that's all Rob and I had access to back in those days. In Los Angeles I had full access to porn stars via 3 agencies. Even here in Florida there are 2 agencies not far away who have dozens and dozens of really hot looking girls who are okay with shooting porn. 20 or even 10 years ago this was un heard of, agencies like this didn't exist out of most places except LA and NY. Now most larger cities here in the US have agencies for Fetish models.

Covid has greatly effected business this year, I know a great many models who are hurting for cash right now as not that many people are shooting, wondering if this will have a long term effect? There is a gig called 'FetishCon' here in Florida every year and this year of course it was cancelled, a pity as its a great place to meet models so you can see and talk to them in person to evaluate if they work for the kind of shoots you want to do. Hopefully the gig will be back in 2021.

As for making any money out of shooting WAM I think any of us what have done it know, your lucky to make enough money for the next shoot. Maybe if you shoot many times a week and have super low expenses you might be able to make ends meet. I am curious if ladies like Jayce or Ariel can make ends meet just shooting WAM? But generally speaking Shooting WAM is done mostly for fun and for the passion of creating videos, certainly is for me.

Phil

I agree with Lauren19's comment above about the appeal clothed WAM.
What is suggested, but not necessarily revealed, remains inticing and always has something else to promise.
Isn't that not fundamentally what wetlook is about? The shape of the body partially obscured but teasingly suggested, both at the same time.
Everyone to their own tastes!

Nice to hear someone who helped whet my WAM appetite. I remember you and Rob Blaine at the beginning when I found Messy Fun in an ad in the back of a Playboy magazine. Just because I found WAM from Playboy you would think that I would be into nudity. But with WAM it is all about seeing an elegantly coiffed and dressed model have her dress / clothing, makeup and hairdo destroyed by pies, mud or whatever substance before I see skin. To me, I could enjoy seeing just the complete destruction by gunge of the model clothing. But I admit with a limited budget, if I have a chance to buy or subscribe to a site where the model is wearing the same smart clothing and goes non nude or one where the clothing falls off or is torn off after the mess I will buy the one with nudity first as it tickles more of my fetishes. That made Rob Blaine's work so nice is that his scenes had the mess before the nudity. My favorite current producer does a mix of fully clothed and some "tasteful" nudity and I am glad that streaming services makes it easier to enjoy all scenes. That way I can enjoy both nude and non nude. As far as sexual contact between male / female or any other combination, that is not something I look for. I guess if my budget allowed and I saw some story with a well dressed female about to get destroyed by WAM action and then having sex, I might be tempted. But I am much more into the mess and hopefully exposed breasts or full nudity following the mess. A nip slip before the mess of some nice upskirt action before or during the mess is also a nice touch. My high school days were at the time of micro mini skirts so upskirt scenes remind me of my youth.

WAM is a huge turn on for me too, the difference is that I have no interest in nudity, and being asexual, no interest in sex, either doing or watching. I'm sex positive, I'm all in favour of those who want it having all the sex they want (amongst other things I'm friends with quite a few polyamarous people), but it does nothing for me. What I do get turned on by, and wank to, is seeing an attractively dressed woman getting her clothes messy, particularly from the waist down. I'm very fussy about outfits - low-rise jeans are an abomination that should be erased from history forever, and I hate those short "office" skirts that only come part-way to the knee - so it only works if the model is wearing something I like. But if she is, and she's getting messy, and it's been lit and filmed so we can actually properly see what is happening - hubba hubba hubba.


We now have some models on board who want to go beyond our traditional fully clothed only scenes, we've a sliding scale where the next level up is still fully clothed but includes girl-girl kissing, breast fondling, crotch groping etc, and sometimes in qute sexy outfits like spandex catsuits with nothing worn underneath. Above that there's scenes involving full nudity, of which so far we've done one with Miss Abigail and Fidelity but we have other models potentially interested. How far we go all depends on what our people want to do, we pay a bit more for the higher levels but not massively more as so far at least the kinky and nude scenes don't sell that many more than the standard fully clothed ones do, and so far our biggest sellers are stll all fully clothed ones.

As to turn ons while shooting, in the early days I worried about that but in reality it doesn't happen, because when filming I'm focusing entirely on the technical aspects - framing, exactly what the camera is capturing, are the models facing enough towards the camera, is one model blocking the light on the other, etc - that I honestly don't have the mental spare capacity to be getting turned on at the same time. A good few times we got to the end of a shoot with me thinking it hadn't been that good, only to then be blown away by the footage when reviewing it.


I've never hired a model from an agency, it's all been word of mouth or friends of friends, or in a couple of cases people I already knew from the alternative scene who semed from their social media to be potentially open to fetish work.


I've heard of FetishCon, there's a similar UK event, I think that was also cancelled this year. I don't know if any of the larger events will happen next year, already some German events for next May are being cancelled, I have a feeling it will be 2022 before the big stuff comes back.

I actually had a two-girl shoot booked for the first weekend this month which we had to cancel a week out due to escalating lockdown restrictions. It'll be the spring equinox before we shoot anything new I think.


In our case it covers the costs of shooting more scenes, we generally make enough over a month to cover the model fees and materials for one full weekend of shooting, if we shoot more than that I'm subsidising it. My main work is in IT, and WAM definitely isn't going to replace that any time soon.

I think that, in general, social attitudes towards sex have become more relaxed among the general population over the decades since I was a kid...

Ah, memory lane and Rob Blaine! There was more to Rob's technique of finding models than strip clubs and students, every time I ever had lunch or dinner with him and there was a female waitress, he would create an embarrassing scene by propositioning her to do modeling work!

I mention this in a larger context however. Rob knew exactly what he was doing and his technique is valid and effective and is something every fetishist should be aware of. However, to use it, you must learn to not in any way care what other people think of what you do, which means that many people will never be able to use the technique effectively.

Simply put, it is all odds, doesn't matter what the odds are, 1 in 10, 1 in 100, or 1 in a 1000, but somewhere out there is a person who will be receptive to your modeling or dating proposition. So, once you realize that is true, it just becomes a matter of getting busy propositioning as many folks as possible and the more folks you proposition, the sooner you get to meet the person who will accept your proposition.

It's a brute force technique but it works. You see it all the time in bars, guys propositioning every girl in there and getting shot down and making a fool of themselves. And yet, if you take the trouble to notice, most of the time they end up leaving with a girl while you end up going home alone...

I agree with Sliver Sea as I have now done 2 productions both are in the USA as I am in Oz and had to outsource the material. The problem wasn't finding production crews or models but the exchange rate between AUD and USD and justifying the cost of production. So I then had to shop around to see who would charge what for the same scene. The average cost was the same for most models, about $250 to $300 USD, per scene then the props costs would change in return.

I voted your comment up, Peiro, BTW.
Just came to say: GOD I hate that super-cringey term "influencer".
It sounds SO self-importance-enlarging.

Hey, everybody! I'm a GAME-CHANGER!

It's like when fucking tv & movie producers refer to their tv shows & movies
as an "event". No. Your tv show or movie is JUST A TV show or movie:
it is JUST for ENTERTAINMENT purposes ONLY! It has NO importance,
no practical effect, in either the real physical world or the real abstract mathematical world!

Assholes used to murder/lynch black people or gays for no reason 100 years ago.
Asshole pieces of shit used to deny women the vote 101 years ago.
Asshole pieces of shit used to violently (the law) stop women from holding certain jobs.
All libertarians agree that law IS violence.
Asshole pieces of shit used to take for granted that they are entitled to enslave
males of a certain young age (18-24) to go fight in a war, for the cause of nationalism,
with ZERO scientific objective proof or evidence that said war has any PROVABLE benefit for one's nation. Can you IMAGINE if civilians forced other civilians to fight for causes THEY don't support: abortion rights, drug rights, animal rights veganism?

So, morals on average have only gotten better historically.

That's not hard to figure out.

The internet has slathered all kinds of sex and porn and nudity and fetish stuff everywhere and and it's all very easy to find. It's now common and devalued. 20 years ago, some of us were still lying on the floor in a dead faint after finding out that we weren't totally alone in the world with some of the stuff we secretly fantasized about. We were on dial-up internet and it took awhile to even download a picture.


I have observed that when the economy's down and regular jobs are lost or hard to get, yes, sometimes girls who are not otherwise part of our community at all will turn to people like us and we do a video.

I once paid a girl to get in the mud topless and when she took my money, she said, "Now I'll make rent!"

I'm done producing forever now, but when I was active, yes, I did more filming when I worked part-time. So, yeah. Money can be a motivator. But so is just having the time.


Well, I do believe that morals have plunged badly in recent years, but I really, really doubt that you and I are calling the same thing "morals"!

I don't think anything we film here is "immoral" as long as everyone is honest and nobody feels coerced.


Well, yes, but it's everyone who's more open-minded. It's probably, as I said before, just the internet.

But social media?

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not a fan.

Nessie

i * really * wanted to reply when you first posted this, but you had asked for responses from "Female UMD producers" and i decided to wait at first and let others reply first.

And finally i get to add my $0.17 (adjusted for inflation) to the question!

What has changed in 20 years? Essentially i'd say it was "the internet" ...AND iphones/smart phones connected to *said* internet. My, how it has connected so many of us AND in many ways isolated us as well?

I distantly remember seeing a tiny 1 inch X 1/2 inch ad for "messy fun" in a magazine (maybe it was Playboy? maybe it was Hustler?) just before i went back to college in 1997 and i submitted a tiny subscription fee (or maybe none?) for one of the MessyFun newsletters and boy oh boy, when it arrived in the mail, suddenly i was not the only weirdo who was interested in WAM.

The college i attended also had internet, so i decided to give "surfing the information highway" a try with a trip to MessyFun as well as MK's website at that time, (mud-puddle-visuals was on that early list as well)

Could i call WAM an addiction? I certainly could have done better in college if i had spent less time on the various *wetlook* websites that i have viewed over the years.


so i think the internet has made it * SO * much easier for "small-time" producers to compete in the market... like right now... with an iphone or an android, record a WAM scene of some kind, upload it to youtube, and voila, you are a WAM producer. An attractive lady that likes to get wet or messy (or both) and someone asks her: Hey, if i send you this cheerleader uniform, would you hyave some green slime poured on your head for me? I will commission you to produced this custom video for me!

Voila - a customer's dream comes true, and a part time fetish model makes a tidy sum of cash.

So i don't think that morals have plunged * significantly * nor do i think women are *more * open minded than they were 20 years ago. On the other hand, it * IS * possible that morals have lessened somewhat? I use to be terrified to get soaking wet in public, but knowing so many others share this interest, i am less inhibited than i was 20 years ago.

Of course, the last thing i want to do is be an unsolicited spokes-person for the ladies who participate here. In fact, i shall * NOW * go back and read the other comments that have been added to this thead!


agreed!


WHAT? Rob Blaine published a book?? Is there anyway i can get a copy???

1997 was 23 years ago, and i was horribly spoiled at my college with its first generation broad band. I experienced "dial-up" just a tiny bit (AOL anyone? how about "net-zero"?? LOL) but yeah, kids today can search so easily for "wet clothes" (and i have no idea how the rest of you search for "mud" or "pies" or any of that??)

"The Art Of Messy Photography" I bought a copy, which was stored along with all my Messy Fun newsletters, however when I looked in the box I thought they were in it and they are missing, so I don't know if I've lost them or they're just in a different box.

The book was intended to give you the basic information on how to set up as a WAM producer, and included sections on how to recruit and interview models, and also how not to behave, there was a warning to understand the difference between a hiring a model and wooing a potential girlfriend. Lots of technical detail on how to manage both still and video cameras and change film while deep in a mud pit, and lots of information on how to shoot scenes, including that it's impossible to shoot decent mud scenes unless you are willing to go right into the mud with your models - something many producers since could do with paying attention to.

A lot of how I shoot WAM scenes is still based on his techniques.