From what I understand, there may be a lot of people out there who are waiting for a custom to be created, but who are being strung along. I've come to learn that customers hate to complain. Sometimes they will wait forever just hoping that they'll finally get their product or a refund. That ain't right.

Please contact me directly if you're having trouble receiving your custom from any producer, even if they aren't on our Customs Producers List. https://umd.net/stores/customs No producer here gets preferential treatment, and you won't get any backlash for speaking up, but I'll do my best to help. Also, feel free to write a negative or positive review for any UMD store by going to that store and clicking "Review Us" on the left.

I'm going to get a bit more strict on who I allow on our Customs Producers List, and if I understand that your customers are getting left behind, you'll get removed.

Messmaster

We have an idea...

What someone needs to do is create a third-party custom deposit scheme so customers are protected. The deposit is held by the third party until the custom is delivered then released to the store/producer. If customs aren't delivered within a set period, as per the terms of that store/producer, the deposit is automatically refunded or the independent third party steps in to review the case.

We looked into doing this via LiquidX a while ago but I, (or none of our lot) have enough time to manage it (and we don't want the responsibility or to invest in it).

I think this would be more effective than customers having to rely on reviews that can so easily be manipulated by producers offering incentives or using leverage or even commercial blackmail (ie. bad reviews equal a ban on future customs or blocking from their site etc).

That's not to say producers do that, but it's open to manipulation. How many of those 'give me free access and I'll do a glowing review on UMD/Fetlife/Google etc. emails have we all had (no, thank you)

It is an issue because someone's lax attitude to customs can prevent potential customers from being confident about getting customs made from other outlets. One bad experience can stay with you.

That said, customs are very challenging as the card association do not like the idea of customs as a business outfit (we're not that keen either)

~Callum
(LiquidX)

Sounds like a great idea
Let's face it the only people I see would have a problem with it would be the ones causing all the problem in the first place

The idea from LiquidX sounds interesting.

I do have a question, what would happen if a customer receives their custom on time but is not satisfied with the end product, can they prevent the transfer of some or all the money to the producer?

If so, I worry that some producers will not like the additional risk. They will have to hire models and buy sustances with their own money and then possibly have to fight for the customers fee.

I would say that once the custom has been delivered, the funds would be released to the store owner/producer.

As for the contents and satisfaction, that would have to be taken up between producer and client and revert back to the reviews/feedback system. Professional producers/stores would find a resolution if a customer was not satisfied with the outcome or have policies in place for this. Not something we have ever experienced luckily.

Glad to see hear this.


I've done a few customs and I think the pseudo-escrow thing would probably not work for some producers.

Some of them seem to be fairly illiquid, and need the upfront custom budget to make the custom.

I also agree with the fact that sometimes customs come back off script or missing the point even when it was clear, but it's also on the customer to make sure you give clear directions.

I appreciate this, however I would say that if a producer was unable to fund the custom that they have accepted, then that would immediately raise red flags. We would never accept a custom we could not fund ourselves. By doing so, it would place our customers and our business at financial risk.

Deposits are there to prevent timewasters but should never be in place of pre-budgeted funding.

I accept that customs do from time to time fall through for whatever reason, but that is the risk of business and all producers need to ensure they have planned for this possible outcome when setting up their custom business plan.

I'm sure the majority of producers will have a good business plan set out and have a budget to meet their specific costs before opening their customs business to potential customers.

How many people are able to do customs and is their a way to be transparent about how their used and made?

I wonder what other ways would make it better for everyone?

Thanks for your replies Liquid X. I think your idea does solve a few problems, particularly the time keeping issue mentioned in the OP.

I think your answer regarding producer cash flow is very sensible. All I would say is that not every producer will be in the same boat as you and your idea may create a sort of barrier to entry for some.

I'm not saying I disagree with you though

Not necessarily, it's all relative. Whether a full multi-camera professional studio or a jar of custard and a stool. Many customers would prefer to opt for simplicity over more expensive full studio setups. In fact, I would say the majority

That's what's known as an "escrow" system, and has been suggested several times in the past, however...


Exactly. And neither does anyone else. Basically to be viable the escrow system would itself have to make sufficient profit to be worth someone's time to run, which would mean hefty fees, which would simply result in people getting in touch directly via private channels to bypass it, effectively rendering it void.

There are multiple issues with WAM customs, and I don't think a "technical" solution will resolve them.

Customs come in a huge range of types and costs. At one end of the scale, if all someone wants is a random girl in a nondescript outfit to slap herself in the face with a shaving foam pie on a paper place, that can probably be had from Fiver, for, well a fiver. At the other end of the scale if you want a specific model in a specific custom latex catsuit who ends up taking a bath in the goo on a custom-built set, that is going to cost $$$.

Then there's the payment issue. If the customer pays in full up front there's the risk the producer simply pockets the cash and vanishes. Or even the producer comes up with a whole series of sob stories about their house having cancer and their lungs burning down, and "borrowing" a bunch more money from the customer for a new camera to complete the scene, and then vanishing with the cash. But if the customer doesn't pay till after the scene is completed, there's the risk they never pay - some quite deliberately in the hope the producer then puts the scene up for sale to try and recover costs, and original customer then pays $15 for what should have cost them $300.

The approach we've always taken is that we give realistic timescales - a custom will be completed within three months of the deposit being paid, else the deposit is refunded, plus charging sensible rates - a custom from us is going to be at least £200+VAT, possibly a lot more. And we require a 50% deposit in advance, so basically the pre-production costs (materials, etc) are met before we start. Customs are hard work, both for producer and models, much moreso than general scenes. If a model gets something significantly wrong, does things in the wrong order or whatever, in one of our general scenes we can just go with it. But if she makes the same mistake in a custom then we basically have to scrap it and start again, with all the costs that will entail.

Agree that reviews can be a bit of red herring though. Most of the time people only review something if they've had a bad experience. They may well mean to also review the positive ones but it's just too easy not to get round to it, while dissatisfaction will drive people to actually write and post that negative review. I was once looking for a nice pub for lunch while planning some railway moves. Found one near Crewe. Read the reviews, first one made it out to be the most horrible food pub ever. Then clicked on the name of the reviewer and discovered that they'd seemingly never had a decent pub meal anywhere in England, it was an endless litany of surly barmaids, incompetent cooks, and rancid food. Soon realised the problem was the reviewer, who apparently expected multi-star Michelin standard meals in pubs serving basic grub for £7.99 a time.

Thanks MM! I had two customs done in the past on 2 separate occasions. While I eventually got the finished products, both times it took at least 6 months for delivery. Stressful and frustrating considering the producer had my money and was not willing to consider refunding me when she suddenly had health issues interfere and delay her completion. I was overall pleased with the films. However,'I didn't intend to pay for something that was estimated to be done in 2-3 weeks when actually it was finished a half year later.

To build on top of Liquid X idea, that 3rd party proxy could also be a place where customers could post RFQ (Request for Quotes) where they would describe the scene they would like peoduced. Maybe a form would allow to collect criteria so quotes can be compared easy. I think this would benefits in many ways. Only producers that are interested in your scene would propose, and having competing offers would benefits the customer. This would be good for new producers out there that what to be known. Another benefit is this would allow to collect more precise statistics based on quotes others have made. So A customer could search quotes stats based on a few criteria.. I think this would clear a lot of the unknown that have prevent me in the past from commissioning a scene.

Serious question: Would you be happy to pay an extra $100 on top of the actual price of the custom to make the escrow service viable for the operator?

Not trying to piss on anyone's chips (as we say in these parts), but the idea of customs escrow has been raised many times in the past, it was discussed a lot back before there was an approved customs poducer's list when random hot female models were appearing, offering customs, and then disappearing with multiple people's money. But the only way such a sevice would be possible would be if it charged hefty fees to make itself viable. There's a huge amount of risk in running an escrow service for niche fetish video productions, when things go wrong it could easily become a classic "shot by both sides" situation.

Example 1: Custom is produced and delivered, but customer isn't happy with the result. Escrow service still passes money to producer as per the agreement, customer issues a chargeback against the escrow service, resulting in blacklisting by payment providers.

Example 2: Custom isn't delivered in time, so escrow service returns money to customer. Model issues a sob-story about reasons for lateness involving nasty bank foreclosing on their mortgagte / house burned down / pet unicorn has cancer, community decries evil escrow service for denying hard-working and popular WAM model (who first appeared 3 months ago) their income, leading to forum rage and death-threats.

(note example 2 is *not* a dig at any curerent model, I'm remembering the multiple scams of some years ago that cost a lot of people $$$).

I understand why people like the idea of an escrow for customs, but honesty, short of a bank owned by a wammer offering to run it for free as a community service, it isn't a feasible solution.

Content issues would be dealt with between producer/client as they are now so that's not an issue. People can issue chargebacks now anyway for sales, subscriptions etc. It's a pain in the ass and hits production costs of course (clearly they aren't wam supporters if they do this) but they are blocked from purchasing again now and lock themselves out of future content access, so the same could be done.


If a producer has issues delivering customs in time, they amend their publicly advertised lead time to something more manageable to suit their own circumstances. As long as the customer is fully aware at every stage of the lead time. If it hits their deadline and the custom isn't delivered then the deposit is returned to end-user and the producer advised to amend their lead time.

Regarding "forum rage and death threats"... If someone issues 'death threats' then they probably aren't really suitable to be commissioning customs anyway, so at least they expose themselves so everyone can stay well clear That sorts that out.


It works for loads of business outfits but because of the extra-long lead times, the card association are not keen. We only managed it because we were able to turn around within days because everything was set up. But we have had to pick and choose and turn down many customs because of our own delivery timing policies and the fact they we run several other vanilla businesses.

Service could charge 2.5% on deposits. But, I agree it would have to be wider than 'wam' to be cost-effective I would imagine.

What everyone really needs are contracts. If there are stipulations for a due date and what happens when it's missed, that alone could solve a lot of problems.

I've always wanted to make a generic customs contract available. Maybe producers out there could share ideas from what they're using? I already have a generic model release but if we could come together and make a customs contract, it could cover many of the things that go wrong. Then we could just make it available open-source.

Based on being in the middle these disputes like every week, these seem to be some of the common points of contention that could be addressed:

Date for content delivery and what happens if it's missed. Automatic refund? Price discount?
How payments will be made--which service and what time frame
How will it be delivered? How long will it be available?
Who owns the final product? Can the producer still sell it?
Space to outline a detailed script/instructions or mention that it's attached
Need to specify the performer, the outfits, the substances, and when it's okay to substitute... or not.
Declaration that purchaser, producer, all models and crew are of legal age
Space for digital signatures?

I like these ideas a lot. Having a standard contract would be really great I think.

I put my customs in a powerpoint format to make clear what I want: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y0Oq90WfgKJ_i9IAkAq1O9dEgiQ_dAYc/view?usp=sharing

I think it's important for the customer to be very clear about whats wanted, as it doesn't seem fair to blame a producer if the prompt was vague.

When I started doing customs, there wasn't really any guide to what my script needed to be like, and many producers don't do a good job of setting expectations regarding timelines and model availability.


An idea I had was is to publicly announce customs before they come. So for example, if I posted my script in a thread and said, Producer X is doing this with model Y, then when the final scene came back, the community would be able to compare the producers scene with customer input. This transparency could add pressure to deliver the intended scene, and also pressure the customer to lock in the scene to a specific script with no changes.

That could also protect a producer when someone complains, since they can point to the public script and scene, and show the community they match.

This is a great idea and i thank/appreciate you for taking this on, MM

While it's something i understand the frustration of, when i see someone post "WHAT ABOUT MY CUSTOM?!" as a thread, I always think "Isn't that something that can/should be handled off the main forums?" Just feels weird to me to drag it out into public space, although obviously if people are notoriously, unanimously poor with custom/customer service, that is something that should be brought into the Forums.

JY

Actually the world of customs has been nosediving for some time now. Ever since payment methods like Cashapp and Venmo became poplar it's become a scammers paradise. There's no real name and filing chargebacks are next to impossible.

About six months ago I switched to a method I feel is fair. The model/studio has to make the custom, send proof it's been made (5 or 10 screenshots throughout the video or send a preview vid) then I pay. Oh, they also have to send a screenshot that the video is uploaded to a platform (Drive, Dropbox, etc..) before I pay.

So far so good. I have a few models who have no issue with that system. They don't have to send the video until I pay.

The few who won't do that system claim they risk making the video then don't get paid. But I risk, losing 100% of my money, and my money wins over their time.

(Note: If the custom requires things be purchased, like pies, etc...I will pay for that upfront.)

A 100$ sounds like a big management fee. I'd be ok with a 5-10% fee, for the whole platform.

I really think it should be part of UMD.. I'm very confident it would be beneficial for both producers and customers if customers could post quote requests and you would have several producers that are interressed by the scene make an offer. This would be secured by terms and agreement like mentioned by messmaster.

Few key points:
1- platform managing proposal/payment/file transfer
2- able to compare custom prices based on history
3- pool commission for larger project. Maybe 3-4 customers could pool up for their niche holy grail

Information on custom is limited and individuals have to contact producers one at the time and that information remains private and then the producer has to repeat same thing to the next person.

Cheers

Except he is vetting certain producers by putting them on an "approved list". This gets hairy.

Contracts are key. And their visibility. You do this when you get something done with your house, or when you buy a car right? They should be equally protective of both parties, that's their purpose. However this isn't always the case because not everyone is as savvy with them and may end up screwing themselves.

So, there are two ways to go about this that I can think go.

Standardized route: If you want to things going through UMD and use the UMD vetting process, then there should be a standard UMD contract and they need to be able to be produced on demand for review. I highly doubt MM would want to go that way as it's a lot of time, effort, and money to do so. He would need to probably charge and take a cut of customs for legal expenditures if something ever had to go to arbitration. If that were me, I'd pass

Privatized route: Otherwise, everyone is free to contact each other privately and conduct their business that way. Everyone is responsible for their own purchases and contractual obligations. If you done fuck up, then it's your own problem

Either route you go, you're going to have the same shit of people bitching and complaining because...that's how people are. Some have legit complaints (scams, delays, run arounds, etc) and some are pissed because something wasn't done to the exact specifications they visualized in their head but probably didn't spell out.

Personally, I'm for the privatized route and always thought "approved customs producers" was a bad idea because people could argue favoritism etc. I can imagine MM's got 99 problems and this doesn't need to be one of them.

I'd like to point out that running an escrow service requires being licensed and bonded in every jurisdiction you are operating in. It's not something you can do as a hobby or as a sideline any more than you can practice law or surgery without being licensed. At least in the US, it's a regulated financial service and requires payment of licensing fees, a surety bond, being fingerprinted, etc.

caveat emptor. Let's create a new public forum where producers and custom seekers can discuss their experiences. This lets those looking for a custom to hear from others about successful and problematic customs. And it let's producers discuss negative and positive experiences with customers. All in public forum where people can defend themselves. This would also be a way to weed out the scammers and the time wasters.

We take privacy and discretion very seriously on our platform so that wouldn't work for us. We would never discuss our experiences with a customer on any forum, either positive or negative. Customers can, but we absolutely do not. 100% confidential.

I think many customers would lose confidence if this were to be the case as customs are very private things for people.

The problem with that, and the reason MM set up the Approved Customs Producers list in the first place, it it's ripe for exploitation by scammers.

Some years back there was a whole spate of trouble with bogus customs producers ripping off UMD members, the scam worked like this:

1. Cute, hot, enthusiastic new model pops up waxing lyrical about how much she loves WAM and wants to get messy for people. She posts photos of herself getting messy, she engages with people in chat, and she asks if anyone wants custom scenes doing. Her prices are good but not stupidly cheap so people assume she's for real and take a chance on her.

2. She delivers the goods for the first few customers, and people start to sing her praises in the foums, usually in response to someone asking if her customs are as good as promised.

3. She takes a ton of second wave orders from people, encouraged by the reports of those who'd had good results in the first wave.

4. Delivery time slips a bit, but she's still taking new orders, all paid up front of course.

5. People who've ordered and paid start to get apologies for delays, but there's been a house fire and her studio is gone, but if people can lend her the money for a new video camera she can keep going and deliver the goods. She might also have been diagnosed with cancer and need money for treatment, but will still deliver the goods, just wait a bit longer.

6. Model vanishes with everyone's money, never to be seen again, just as the first few "Have I been scammed?" posts start to appear.

7. A few months later, another cute, hot, and enthusiastic female wam model pops up, rinse and repeat.

Some people lost $$$ to these scams. No way anyone should ever be paying the full costs of a custom up front - 50% on order, 50% on completion isn't perfect (some scammers would be happy with just 50% and vanish) but at least that's better than being taken for the lot on a $400 scene.

The idea of the Approved Customs Producers List is you don't get on it unless you've a store with at least 10 scenes for sale, i.e. you've put some serious commitment into producing general WAM material and showing the kind of quality and filming style you can do before you start trying to get people to commission custom scenes. This is to try and protect people from scammers. The problem with anything sexual of course is it's very easy to just follow temptation when a really hot new model is promising to fullfil your every fantasy for a few hunderd dollars.

Perfectly stated.


We do sorta have this. The original purpose of The List was to provide a framework for customers to leave reviews and ratings about these customs services. I approve positive and negative reviews alike, and producers can always add a response to any negative review. They can't rate customers.

BTW the list isn't really for "Trusted" customs producers; It's for customs producers who haven't fallen off the face of the earth and who still seem to be operating in good faith, even if their business acumen isn't all that great. That's what the reviews and 5-heart rating system is there for. ALL these producers have trouble from time to time, but you only get removed if I start to believe that you no longer have the customers' interest at heart.

Thank you to everyone who has contacted me since Sunday with your stories of customs or refunds that are owed to you. Keep 'em coming. I likely won't respond for a few days until I can get my own arms wrapped around all this. Some patterns seem to be emerging....

Peace,
Messmaster

I like the idea of 50% up front. I know people who sell things outside of WAM and do commissions AKA customs. Each of them requires 50% non-refundable up front. That allows for anything supply wise that would need to be purchased if it is not in stock already and it also makes sure that the person is serious about the commission. I am sure that there are people who want customs on here that think they should get them for the 50 dollar range instead of the 200 to 300 dollar range it should be. There are communities on Facebook where these commissions are arranged. The admins all talk with each other. If there is someone who does not provide a commission they are immediately black listed from all the groups. The groups keep an updated list people who back out of commissions and also people who disappear after the first 50%. With it being non refundable, it is amazing how many people pay the 50% and then never pay for the finished product. The person who has already started on the commission or is almost done, then has the option to sell the piece for the difference between what they have received and what the total is. While there have been a few slip through the cracks, with the people doing the commissions, knowing that the group is a major source of commissions and their business being in commissions there is more pressure on them to be straight with people. There are far worse consequences by being someone who takes commissions and getting black listed than there are for someone buying a product who falls on hard times and can't pay.

This is why reviews are SOOO important. If you are looking for a custom and not sure about who to get it from finding reviews would be a great option. I think a section of the site for reviews would be a great tool. I have seen reviews in the non wam, I have seen them in wetlook and messy. The review should have the name of the producer in the subject line. There should also be guidelines as to what needs to be in the review. Communication, completion time, cost, satisfaction etc. I have read reviews where there are parts of the script that were missed but that because of the experience of the producer it ended up being better.

I think that putting responsibility on MM to try to work out issues is a lot to ask. As a consumer it is up to you to do your due diligence before starting a custom. I also think there is nothing wrong with having an area with the list of producers who have had issues with customs. If I was looking for a custom I have no way of knowing if there have been issues with the delivery of a custom, be it bad communication, time, not the intended product etc. If you don't want to be on the issue list, then don't do bad customs.

The problem is that it's easy for customers to respawn under a different name. "Oh, Flank ripped you off by not paying for his custom? That sucks, but I'm a brand new customer called Flonk, and you can trust me!"

The producers might know each customer's real name (e.g. based on paying a deposit), but I think that has to be kept confidential rather than posted on a public forum.

As a customer, I can see a potential benefit in asking producers for a reference, particularly if I'm trying to organise an elaborate/expensive scene. ("If you ask X, they'll vouch for me paying on time.") That would be similar to the arrangement when you rent a property and list your previous landlords.

I also think it's a good idea to track reputation on customers.

Like if a customer has paid for 3 or 4 customs already, and then proposes an idea, the producer can feel more comfortable investing time to provide a quote on the idea knowing the customer will likely follow through, vs people who ask about customs but arn't actually interested in paying for them.