Hey guys. It's been known for some time that we might need a more formal producers rating system for customs producers. Perhaps with star ratings, user feedback, examples of past work, etc. It could be a central place to help filter out not only who you want custom work from, but to identify and eliminate any producer who is not legit, or who cannot do good or timely work for whatever today's personal reason is.

A while ago, I floated the idea of integrating that, and an entire Customs market into UMD. Producers could upload the video for private sale to the one person only, and the user could buy it and rate it using our existing systems. But I don't think the models were too keen on such a system at the time, as Customs were already a direct transaction where a middleman skimming 30% was not needed. So to support the models anyway, I just made the Offers Customs section here http://umd.net/models/offers_customs/yup with a simple form for initiating talks for free, and left it at that.

But it seems that UMD is vulnerable to opportunists who want to exploit the trust and sense of community that we've all created over the years, and there needs to be more communication, positive and negative, about past buying experiences with the producers. I've heard that producers generally would like such a ratings system for customers, too.

The thing is that I refuse to be an escrow service, and as such, it looks like the producers would have to make the work and upload it for potential sale, without any money down, and without a guarantee that the customer would actually buy it. Given this, maybe all customs would be allowed to be released for public sale to recoup costs, after a deadline has passed which was set on the agreement, if the user hasn't bought it by then through the store system. Maybe the customer can get a discount if they allow immediate public release anyway.

Without saying too much else about my own ideas, I would like to ask the producers and models, as well as past and prospective customs customers, what would be useful to you? How can I and UMD help you navigate and stay protected in this new world of custom content?

Thanks for your input. I'm listening.
Messmaster

That sounds like something a 3rd party might want to approach. I think MM has enough respect from the community as being a trust worthy person that most people would feel comfortable with him sitting on their money, either money they've paid or money they're waiting to be paid for.

On the other hand, there would invariably be times when there was legitimate dispute between the two parties and is that something the UMD/MM wants to get involved in? I guess it would come down to what percentage of the money was kept by the holder for their services as to whether it made sense or not for them to do it.

Obviously Chris wouldn't take part in it and would want to circumvent the system and at the end of the day his silver tongue probably would continue to con people into "trusting" him (or whatever pretty girl he's impersonating that day of the week) and avoiding any escrow service... but at least at that point, it's a little harder to feel that sorry for them if they allow themselves in that situation.

Whatever happens, it's good to see MM take charge here and be proactive about this.

Because I don't want to be the arbiter for disputes. I already sometimes end up in the middle of disagreements where the the customer doesn't think the producer adhered to the script correctly and doesn't want to pay, or where the producer didn't deliver or whatever.

Sometimes there is no clear answer, and at least the way I see it right now, the only clear way to do this is if the producer creates and uploads the work with the assumption that the customer very well may not pay, hence the deadline when the item can be made for public sale to recoup costs.

I mean, that's how the whole download store works right now, so the Customs system would at its simplest, be a delayed release system where the customer gets first dibs on it through private sale... his benefit not really being exclusivity, but rather him getting to see exactly what he wants, and getting the vid first. No customer could ever be scammed out of their money, and the models/producers can simply adjust their spending caps based on what they are willing to outlay for a scene that may only be recoupable by public sale. Rapport with the customer may be a factor to the model when budgeting for the shoot.

Shutting up now.

I think female verification should be used on site, especially for anyone wishing to sell customs or sessions - like the verification posts the use on sites like reddit, r/gonewild etc holding a piece of paper with date time and username, with a face pic at least submitted to moderators and two or three other pics clearly showing same person, same setting, etc also with the paper

also for selling customs, a seller account like ebay is needed where the person has to provide phone and email contact details so they can be reached off site if a customer makes a complaint within a reasonable time frame

I keep forgetting to mention that in addition to such a system, there would have to come a rule that customs can only be negotiated on UMD through the system, and not on inboxes or anywhere else. This will put things out into the open, and we can set up a ratings system for you, so that past customers can leave positive or negative feedback. If we don't do this, I think it would defeat the purpose and invite circumvention as Jake says, and we're back at square one.

I'm even thinking that the actual downloads should be sold here, so that we can show screen-caps to the user, in a catalog of the producer's past custom work. It also would be part of the mechanism that lets the customer look at the screen-caps of the finished order before finally purchasing the custom. But I am not comfortable forcing people to use this system for the actual sale if they don't want to use it. But it's sorta looking like a package deal. Thoughts?

Limit your liability:

1) Are you getting a custom through a known studio or independent model?

2) Pay through PayPal (make sure not to write anything fetish-related in the comments.

3) Only pay right before the custom can be made. So if they tell me they can't produce the custom for 3 weeks, then I'll pay 1 week before.

4) Be aware of buyer's protection time limits. It's generally 60 days. After that you're not gonna get a refund.

5) After the day the video was scheduled to be make, if there is zero contact for one full week. send a "I'll be filing a chargeback tomorrow" email - wait one more day.

6) Still no reply - file the chargeback. The studio/model will have to remit proof to PayPal that the video was delivered, if not you get your money back by default.

7) For expensive customs, half down, half on proof the video was completed.

It's not flawless. If the model responds to PayPal and mentions anything adult related, both of your PayPal accounts would be limited, then cancelled with the balance mailed after 180 days.

And while pies per se might not be "adult," nudity or any type of sex certainly is. Again, not a flawless system. But mailing a check or money order means zero protection if it all goes south.

If you can figure out a way to do it, you'll be (more of) a hero to the community, but in my experience, you never want to get involved in any of these:

-- a fight between sisters

-- a land war in Asia

-- custom videos

Yeah, solving this issue to everyone's liking might be the UMD equivalent of splitting the atom.

One thing to consider is that some people - not me personally, but I'm guessing some - prefer having their customs not released to the public, thus making it more of a special thing for them. And I know that some models abide by that. If I interpret your proposal correctly, then that would no longer be possible? That might be dicey.

And as much as I'm all for protecting the consumer, it's just not realistic for a producer to shoot the scene with no money down. That's as much a recipe for problems as the current system.

For what it's worth, I continue to maintain - as noted in the separate thread I made a few days ago - that escrow seems like the utilitarian solution. Not perfect, but the most good for the most people. If that's a non-starter due to the payment processor or the desire of those running the site, then that's unfortunate and we'll have to shift to plan B.

LOL I am reading these threads happy that I am no longer a producer and even more happy we never offered customs.

Phil

I wouldn't expect anyone to make a custom with no money down. But if a custom is, for example, $500, then half down and half on proof the video is done (screen grabs) is the way to go.

I put in an agreement that the down payment is non-refundable, then the model knows I'm not just gonna piss away $250.

That said, that method becomes an issue for studios who are going to resell the video and count on that to make some profit. If it's a $500 three model video, it might in fact cost close to the entire $500 to produce it with supplies and model fees.

In that case, I'm only going to give it all upfront to a studio, not an individual model.

Unless I'm missing something here, this is a recipe for disreputable customers to order a custom worth say $200, not pay, and pick it up in the d/l store for $20. That is surely not the desired result.

No, I dont think you are missing anything...

This is what I meant when I said that producers might want to adjust their spending caps based on what they are willing to outlay for a scene that may only be recoupable by public sale. Such a system may not be good at all for the $200+ custom. For those orders, participants may still have to find other means to do their transaction so they can work out a prepayment.

But I'm thinking there may be a middle ground here, where a relatively easily-done custom might be ordered for $25 to $50 with producer-set limits on supplies or whatever they negotiate. It's just like the producer is preparing any other download scene (which they do all the time without pre-payment), but with limited special instruction depending on what the producer is willing to accommodate for that kind of price. Call it custom-light. If the either one fails, then neither is out a whole lotta money and they can choose to never work with that person again, as well as leave feedback about them on the site.

If at some point a producer and a repeat customer develop a good rapport, then the producer may wish to probe his/her own limits as to how much more they are willing invest in a shoot for that customer without pre-payment, as well as how wacky and non-mainstream they are willing make the scene, in case they do have to sell publicly.

Of course pre-payment is still possible off-site; I don't care. And you're right MoreOdd. The guaranteed private vid would not be possible here, so we couldn't serve people who require that.

I don't know what everybody charges for customs, and I don't expect any system to be all gravy for everybody, and I don't want to step on toes. But a producer ratings system of some sort is definitely coming, and anybody wishing to offer customs on UMD might have to register and show some past work at least. I don't care where the actual transaction takes place, but I just want to protect my users.

Or do you think that we should just leave it alone and let things go exactly as it is now? Any more ideas are welcome!

Such language!

But here's the thing - sure, there are guys who like their customs simple (girl smoking and taking pies, girl in white jeans, girl spitting out pie), but I suspect that many - probably the majority - of customs are elaborate in one or more ways that require higher costs. After all, a custom usually is done to scratch an itch that a normal video won't scratch.

And Ariel confirmed what I suspected, which is that because of the specificity (or niche within a niche) nature of customs, most likely won't have enough widespread appeal to recoup even a small fraction of costs via downloads from the UMD consumers as a whole.

Let me take a swing at figuring out a system.

- Create a section of the UMD dedicated to listing producers that offer custom content. Each producer can list what their rates are and what comes included with it.

- If a producer wants to be listed on it, they have to provide verfiable contact information and whatever credentials are deemed necessary to prove that it's at least a legitimate producer.

- Each producer can offer a link to their own site to order the custom instead of it having to be direct through the UMD store.

- Each producer has the ability to be ranked and have comments posted for public viewing. If somebody wants to buy through said producer, they can now read others' experiences.

- Provide a simple FAQ on how to handle disputes, but make it clear that the UMD will be not be an arbiter of disputes.

If somebody wants to get a custom from somebody not listed on the directory, they can. That's between them and the producer. But it's like hiring a contractor who's not liscensed or isn't reviewed on a reputable site. Buyer beware.

It's a nice thought, but it's assuming that people will also agree to adhere to some rules, that is almost certainly not inforcible is unrealistic and a waste of time. If someone's custom video model is working for them, they will resist these controls and do their own thing anyway.

In my opinion you would just be creating more problems for yourself, for no gain. Let the market handle it. Word of mouth (or forum post ) is sufficient to handle scammers.

On another note, whatever happen to the coupon/valued customer discount idea?

I still tend to think of myself as an amateur but I suppose after nine successful years, hundreds of scenes, and with the fourth largest download store on the UMD, I probably kind of count as a vaguely professional producer, so here's the view from Saturation Hall:

We've done custom shoots for customers twice. In both cases we actually charged slightly less than the cost price of the shoot, on the basis that the scenes would also sell to our members and download store customers. Both scenes were charged at or above the £200 (that's not far off $300) mark. In both cases, the customer paid half up front, which ensured I could guarantee the model fees, effectively the customer's deposit paid the girls. We then funded the clothes and supplies (which came to a bit more than the fees did) ourselves. When we finished editing I provided screengrabs so the customers could see it had been done, they paid the balance, I put the videos up in private directories off our Members Lounge and sent them the URLs plus complimentary membership to the main site.

TBH I probably undercharged, but the scenes were fun to do and fitted our gungestyle, so glad to have done them.

Were we asked to do a "not to be released" exclusive custom for someone, with two models (like the ones we've done before), the price would start at £400 ($600ish) at least, and go rapidly north depending on exactly what was wanted.

Potentially unpopular thought: Is part of the problem that to an extent mainstream WAM customs have become too cheap? It's easier to scam someone for small amounts than large ones, take someone for £500 and they may seek legal redress, take someone for £50 and chances are most will just write it off to experience.

While we could afford to fund a scene in its entirety from existing resources, and then draw payment from an escrow service on delivery, I can completely see why MM wouldn't want to get involved in such a system, amongst other things I think there are legal issues, as the UMD would effectively operating as a bank - way too many expensive hoops to jump through, and it doesn't solve the problem of the customer then claiming the finished custom wasn't to spec and refusing to authorise payment drawdown.

Sorry I don't have any clear suggestions, but just wanted to share our POV on it.

TBH, this sounds like it might be the way to go (maybe without the membership tossed in), especially with it having come from a well established producer.

Would implementing just a straight ratings system be very time/work intensive, MM?

It does kind of sound like the script for a custom....

I think a rating system would be better, since it seems that there is potential for producers to get scammed. FYI, I'm not a producer.

And to get past "gaming" the rating system, we could always assign higher weights to older UMD members. For example, multiply the effective ratings based on how many years a member has been on UMD. In that way, it will be tough to create ghost accounts to inflate ratings, or if it does happen it will be very obvious.

Not forcing anything, except a required registry for anyone using the site to push their customs and ask our users for money. I think that's fair enough. What's still up in the air is implementation, and what additional requirements or features might be beneficial to everybody.


As you should be. It's our livelihood, and a reputation is about all you have on the internet anymore. If people are intimidated about ordering customs, then you guys lose. I'm trying to prevent that by at least setting up some sort of reference system so that the best producers can be recognized instead of being lumped in with those who don't deliver. So the fucking assholes don't have to fuck it up for you honest gals.


Everybody relax. I'm not trying to yank any rugs out from anyone or take money from pockets. I'm trying to find a way that can benefit customers AND producers, helping them find each other with the help of previous clients' reviews and ratings. If you do customs on your site, or negotiate elsewhere, that is fine. But if you use UMD to solicit for customs, and I require other producers to join a registry in order to do that, then you will have to have a presence there just like everybody else.

I mentioned those arbitrary price points, but as I've been trying to convey, it's up to the producer as to whether they'd like to actually sell their content here under such a system. We are looking at a sea change and it's time for new ideas.


Then it's the decision of the model how far he/she wants to go with the custom, based factors like rapport with the particular customer. If the customer wants more than the model is willing to do, then she can just say no, or they can use another method for payment. I'm not saying they CAN'T send the model or producer money ahead of time. I'm just saying that I'm not willing to hold the money in escrow or be responsible for turn-around times.

Not forcing anything, except a required registry for anyone using the site to push their customs and ask our users for money. I think that's fair enough. What's still up in the air is implementation, and what additional requirements or features might be beneficial to everybody.


As you should be. It's our livelihood, and a reputation is about all you have on the internet anymore. If people are intimidated about ordering customs, then you guys lose. I'm trying to prevent that by at least setting up some sort of reference system so that the best producers can be recognized instead of being lumped in with those who don't deliver. So the fucking assholes don't have to fuck it up for you honest gals.


Everybody relax. I'm not trying to yank any rugs out from anyone or take money from pockets. I'm trying to find a way that can benefit customers AND producers, helping them find each other with the help of previous clients' reviews and ratings. If you do customs on your site, or negotiate elsewhere, that is fine. But if you use UMD to solicit for customs, and I require other producers to join a registry in order to do that, then you will have to have a presence there just like everybody else.

I mentioned those arbitrary price points, but as I've been trying to convey, it's up to the producer as to whether they'd like to actually sell their content here under such a system. We are looking at a sea change and it's time for new ideas.


Then it's the decision of the model how far he/she wants to go with the custom, based factors like rapport with the particular customer. If the customer wants more than the model is willing to do, then she can just say no, or they can use another method for payment. I'm not saying they CAN'T send the model or producer money ahead of time. I'm just saying that I'm not willing to hold the money in escrow or be responsible for turn-around times.


Not really, once I get started. The customs producers would be able to be rated and commented on just just like web sites and downloads can be. I've got a bunch on my plate right now though, but this will very much tie into the current ratings / user of the day system.


I'm not assuming anyone will adhere to any rules other than to be listed in the roster if they want to pimp their wares at this site. That's certainly enforceable and I really don't think that it's too much to ask if they are leveraging our traffic to solicit for customs. They can keep their business models and sell off-site if they want, but if it includes using UMD, then I am entitled (nee, obligated) to at least try and inform customers who they are, to the best of my abilities. I have to take the initiative on this because "the market" won't do this for us.

The idea about selling the lower-priced, lightly-detailed customs without prepayment is not for everybody, and nobody would be required to use it. It's just is an attempt to explore other ways that may reduce the risk while helping producers establish relationships with new customers.

Thunder1, your ideas sound pretty close to what I'm thinking. I'd think that producers would like a place where they can list what they do, show some examples and their available models, explain the limits of what they will and will not do, and show off the praise and compliments. Who loses here?

Thanks everyone for your feedback.

I think Thunder1s ideas are definitely the way to go too.

I think everyone seems on board with a registry of producers who offer customers, & an organised way of customers & producers providing feedback, screenshots etc

MM: The one thing I haven't been able to clearly ascertain from your posts (& this may be more me than you) is whether a producer who didn't want to take any part at all in the 'customs uploaded before payment for cheap customs' piece, would still be able to openly offer customs on UMD or whether they would have go underground, so to speak.

That's the bit I don't get.

If the only commitment to producers are those mentioned by Thunder 1

ie: Create a section of the UMD dedicated to listing producers that offer custom content.
- If a producer wants to be listed on it, they have to provide verfiable contact information and whatever credentials are deemed necessary to prove that it's at least a legitimate producer.
- Each producer can offer a link to their own site to order the custom instead of it having to be direct through the UMD store.
- Each producer has the ability to be ranked and have comments posted for public viewing. If somebody wants to buy through said producer, they can now read others' experiences.
- Provide a simple FAQ on how to handle disputes, but make it clear that the UMD will be not be an arbiter of disputes.

I would think there wouldn't be much push back from legit producers at all.

However I do agree with everyone that if you go beyond that you will probably alienate a lot of producers, & cause yourself a lot of work for very very limited gain.

I agree with those that have said all that is really required is a registry of producers, & an avenue for feedback to be posted

Anything beyond that, that isn't an escrow service, just seems a huge amount of work (not least fro you MM) for no gain

What I wish I had made more clear in my original post is that this is the only part that I'm definitely going to do. Just the producer ratings system. That's all.

I've been asked many times by producers, how they can sell an item to just one customer. I don't know if it's for privacy reasons or for the credit card processing, but I haven't been able to accommodate them yet. So they usually end up putting the item on their store at a very high price so the customer can see it and buy it, then it's taken down right after. I wish they didn't have to do it like that.

Combine that with the fact that producers and models who have download stores here seem to have taken to the Customs Ordering system that is already on UMD. After everyone told me they weren't interested, now there are over 100 models on there currently accepting requests. They all have UMD stores already, so why not let them set up the private sale and then let the customer rate it, review it, etc like any other download. I don't know, maybe my logic is twisted.

Time for me to have my say

If I had money available to shoot customs with any girl on umd it would be a girl who posts reviews on there profile now I might not be 100% correct but to my knowledge Candy Custard was the first model to take people's custom/session reviews and to post them on there profile and various other sites obviously if people can see these reviews then they see all the feedback I conceded that the reviews could potentially be cherry picked to only show the better ones although from what I no about again Candy ( using her as an example as she is one of the more well known models in the uk session market) I highly doubt this is the case

Since Maddie has been shooting customs and hosting session she has used the same method of asking customers to write a quick review speaking to many of the people who visit maddie they tell me that one of the major reasons is because of her feedback from other visitors

Another thing that I never understand is why some models complain that some "potential customers" seem to take an age or they feel that they have there time wasted unfortunatly it's a fact of life you ask any self employed person weather it be a builder or a van driver they will spend a large amount of time offering quotes/information without these being followed up I understand many models have lives and other commitments outside of wam but it's just a fact of life

I hope everything will soon be resolved and it will draw a conclusion to the end of people being scammed

Donnylad

The problem is that to some people, they're actually getting off on just talking to the model / planning their fantasy session, but without ever making any payment - and consuming vast amounts of the model's time in the process. So it tends to be a bit more involved than just asking a builder for a quote for a structure that then never gets built - it's more like having an architect do all the plans and detailed design for a large mansion, all the way down to the tile finishes in the bathrooms and long debates over what kitchen appliances to install - and then walking away and paying nothing. Effectively, using the model's time for an unpaid sex-chat.

My 2c/p...

Yes to a simple register of models who do customs (or producers with a roster of models, I guess) and folks can rate them.

The implementation would be tricky, though - how do you ensure that a producer doesn't delete the bad reviews? If you don't let them edit at all, what's to stop someone flooding it with bad reviews from puppet accounts to make someone look bad...

Sites like eBay do it by limiting feedback to after a transaction is carried out, but that would require the deal to go through UMD so they can keep track of who bought from who... and then we're back to 'forcing' people to come through here. Not a problem in itself, but would folks need to send MM 30% of the fee?

I'd hate for the review site to become a burden to the mods too, always having to arbitrate between a model saying someone gave her a bad review because they realised he was a timewaster, and someone saying they were dismissed out of hand... He said/she said all over again.

I don't envy you the task, MM - but I think it'd make the UMD a safer place to do business, if you can pull it off!

Looking back through all the various posts about it, the main problems seems to be the model ignoring emails.

Once the person had contact to say what was happening and an apology, he was happy again to at least not be feeling purposefully ignored, etc

I really think it could be as simple as making sure a model is contactable off site, with stored contact details (email and phone) that can be released with proof of a transaction and proof of a problem.

I think very few people have been actually scammed, they just get very worried when models go quiet.

again, to sell anything on ebay, you have to register and prove your phone works with a text verification system.

I still think female verification would be good too as mentioned in my other message, this would stop any chance of producers posing as a model they did a bunch of videos with years ago and also put off the odd chancer/faker the umd gets, registering with stolen pics and offering sessions etc.