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"Are we not going to talk about it?"
Love you, too
UMD T&C said: We are a relaxed community more concerned with honest opinion and integrity than political correctness.
Some would suggest this is a two-sided issue; on one side, there's borderline-conspiratorial censorship that doesn't seem to be in line with any listed terms, and on the other, there's the use of the very real and very unfortunate harassment that happens in this community as a vehicle for scammers, catfish, and dishonest types to garner trust and good will. Recent events - anyone who's been lingering around the forums regularly in the last couple of days knows what I'm talking about - have made it clear that such things can demonstrably drive away trusted community members and de-legitimize the experiences of "real" users that have gone through the various struggles involved in putting themselves out here.
I'm leaving this background intentionally vague, but if more clarity is necessary I'd gladly provide it to the best of my ability. Otherwise, I think it's reasonable for us to have a meta-thread - in a place where it's not going to get in anyone's way - for anyone who'd like to say something re: any of this to do so, rather than allow the sudden egress of the offending users and prompt deletion of the offending threads to sweep the issue under the rug.
For the record: I dig this place. I'd like to see it grow as much as can be, for the community to be collectively more rational, and for us to be able to welcome and support new faces and amateur content rather than just desperately waiting for the next literal sex doll to come around. The lens I'm looking through is one of concern - because it seems like we're doing the opposite of all that in a lot of ways and I'm wondering what steps, if any, can be taken, and who needs to take them.
When did we get so fragile that being skeptical of a new posters intent will drive that person away? With this recent event, people rightfully were skeptical and posted accordingly. Why not allow that? If they are wrong, then show that they are wrong. But to censor because, OH NO, we might lose the great contributions of Sinamon! seems over the top. We might miss out on the messy contributions of a former model, with H cups, who is now a successful business woman, who might be nice to you (swoons)? C'mon be real! Instead we drive off good contributors who have the nerve to be critical.
This place is WAY too sensitive. God forbid you critique anyone or, worse, question a female contributor or someone who is pretending to be a female contributor. Jesus, people act like if you question anything we will lose content.
This place is WAY too sensitive. God forbid you critique anyone or, worse, question a female contributor or someone who is pretending to be a female contributor. Jesus, people act like if you question anything we will lose content.
To be fair this is the internet and peoples suspicion may be higher due to the fact that as of late there were accounts spam messaging people to click a link to get your email address MM squashed it fast but it still happens. The internet is full of trolls and fake people after a while it wears on you the point where you are skeptical of everyone I feel that is especially so here, this is a large community and people may prey on are wiliness to connect with one another because of are fetish it is an inevitable fact, how we handle this is key to the continued growth of the community. Its not unwarranted or unjustified to be suspicious of new members as the old saying goes "if it sounds too good to be true it probably is". I take a more cautious approach, a wait and see approach, immediately calling someone out as fake solves nothing so. Got to endeavor to give people a chance.
build a pie pod and they will come.
Guys , I can't fap to this!
Oh Janet! You look so funny!!!
I didn't see this thread until I posted this one right at the top of the messy section.
https://umd.net/forums/sinamin
I'm not for censorship, and granted I was one of those people that tried to be supportive of them doing their thing because they weren't breaking any rules, but I also posted my acknowledgment of skepticism too. If THIS is what lost us Regis, I'm really kind of pissed. If my trying to be accepting of someone new did this, than I'm sorry.
I don't know where the straight and narrow is here. Some people come here to escape reality. Some people come here and hide who they are. Not everyone can afford to be as open as I am. I literally have nothing to lose. Did it stink of catfish, hell yes, and I didn't see what went down after the posting of the sex doll pic. Thread and user are already gone.
https://umd.net/forums/sinamin
I'm not for censorship, and granted I was one of those people that tried to be supportive of them doing their thing because they weren't breaking any rules, but I also posted my acknowledgment of skepticism too. If THIS is what lost us Regis, I'm really kind of pissed. If my trying to be accepting of someone new did this, than I'm sorry.
I don't know where the straight and narrow is here. Some people come here to escape reality. Some people come here and hide who they are. Not everyone can afford to be as open as I am. I literally have nothing to lose. Did it stink of catfish, hell yes, and I didn't see what went down after the posting of the sex doll pic. Thread and user are already gone.
He's more potato now than man. Twisted and evil.
FTR, Regis made it clear to me that he had been frustrated with the overly agressive censorship & deleting of his posts for a while now.... But yes, the "Sinamin" appearance was the straw that broke him. I didn't see his post before a mod deleted it, but apparently he called out "her" many and obvious red flags, as many others did as well. (He probably did it with more humor/snark tho.)
I get that the mods are trying to make everyone feel welcome here and will err on the side of caution, but at some point, you HAVE to let the community police itself. Deleting posts that are (correctly) calling out a Catfisher or scammer don't help anyone.
Anyway, I'll let my man have the last word: "The UMD is getting trolled by a RealDoll and the RealDoll has white knights!!! That pitch is too fat even for Regis."
I get that the mods are trying to make everyone feel welcome here and will err on the side of caution, but at some point, you HAVE to let the community police itself. Deleting posts that are (correctly) calling out a Catfisher or scammer don't help anyone.
Anyway, I'll let my man have the last word: "The UMD is getting trolled by a RealDoll and the RealDoll has white knights!!! That pitch is too fat even for Regis."
ItsJay said:
When a new member joins, I am all for saying hello and welcome, and I will always back someone if they are getting bullied on the UMD, but it seem as soon as someone says "I am a woman" you get guys put on their knights armour and defend them, no matter what. Even when people simply raise concerns. Raising concerns and questions is something every responsible person should do over the internet. ESPECIALLY when it involves a user with no face pictures claiming to be a "model" The reason I hardly speak to "women" with no face pictures is because I dont think they are women, just because of events like this.
When someone uploads a picture of a doll, and claims its "Their real face" and people believe its real, well, sorry, but if you are that stupid, its your own fault.
When a new member joins, I am all for saying hello and welcome, and I will always back someone if they are getting bullied on the UMD, but it seem as soon as someone says "I am a woman" you get guys put on their knights armour and defend them, no matter what. Even when people simply raise concerns. Raising concerns and questions is something every responsible person should do over the internet. ESPECIALLY when it involves a user with no face pictures claiming to be a "model" The reason I hardly speak to "women" with no face pictures is because I dont think they are women, just because of events like this.
When someone uploads a picture of a doll, and claims its "Their real face" and people believe its real, well, sorry, but if you are that stupid, its your own fault.
First paragraph. As a divorcee of a 20 relationship with a "woman" that then came out as a "non-binary" male leaning, etc. I took this with a grain of salt. When someone says they're a "woman" ESPECIALLY on the internet I take them at a "sure you can be whatever you want, its 2018, isn't 'gender' just a 'social construct' anymore?".
Second paragraph. The sex doll. SCREETCHING TIRES. JUST FUCKING SAY THAT YOU ARE TAKING PICS OF A SEX DOLL! Problem solved! You're a legit trans-woman, FINE. I don't think we're quite at the point where we accept sex dolls as REAL women yet. Hell I don't even accept all trans people as being trans because there are a LOT of asshole transtrenders that give truly intersexed people a bad name and a horrible taste in their mouth.
And I'm sure SOMEONE will find a way to crucify me for that comment.
He's more potato now than man. Twisted and evil.
It's a shame that this will be used as one more reason to be dicks to new people. (And this thread for everyone to show off their own intolerances.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNcs9DrKYRU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNcs9DrKYRU
I took the posts at face value and I reported posts that to me went over the line. In the thread it appeared that there were people almost in a state of bullying a new member into showing pictures to prove it is them. Or prove that they are who they say they are. At face value it was a woman being attacked by men wanting to see proof. I do not read in the men forum area alot so I do not know that the same case is made, but it seemed to me like it was not showing the best face of the community hounding people to prove who they are. Especially considering the main person doing the hounding had no proof of who they are.
While it is not my thing, I thought it was an interesting idea giving a sex doll a personality and posting as if they are a person instead of an inanimate object. Just like I find the Soaking Jo stuff interesting. Not my thing, but still interesting exploring different ways of enjoying this fetish.
From what I had seen there was nothing being done by the user that caused anyone any harm. Now, there may have been things behind the scenes, or flirting with members that happened that we do not know about. In that sense, I would agree that it is wrong to do something like that. It seems like this has happened to the user that was doing the hounding. That a bait and switch of sorts had happened and they were emotionally attached and then hurt by it. What happened to them, if that is the case is wrong and should not be allowed in my mind either.
I really like a lot of what Jason said in his post and I hope he copies and pastes it here.
I like the strides that have been made to try to make this place better. Especially when we have boys that harass women to the point that they leave. While we can't control the people that come here, we can at least control what is done here.
I hope that this situation does not turn this community into a place where people have to be carded at the door.
While it is not my thing, I thought it was an interesting idea giving a sex doll a personality and posting as if they are a person instead of an inanimate object. Just like I find the Soaking Jo stuff interesting. Not my thing, but still interesting exploring different ways of enjoying this fetish.
From what I had seen there was nothing being done by the user that caused anyone any harm. Now, there may have been things behind the scenes, or flirting with members that happened that we do not know about. In that sense, I would agree that it is wrong to do something like that. It seems like this has happened to the user that was doing the hounding. That a bait and switch of sorts had happened and they were emotionally attached and then hurt by it. What happened to them, if that is the case is wrong and should not be allowed in my mind either.
I really like a lot of what Jason said in his post and I hope he copies and pastes it here.
I like the strides that have been made to try to make this place better. Especially when we have boys that harass women to the point that they leave. While we can't control the people that come here, we can at least control what is done here.
I hope that this situation does not turn this community into a place where people have to be carded at the door.
Devil's advocate, it's real easy to just say "Hmm, this new poster is setting off my red flag alarm, i will just ignore them until they post some proof of who they are", instead of jumping in as the internet detective (pikachu). Or let the mods handle it. That way, other new people don't see the community being shits to each other and decide to stay anonymous or just walk away
I think there are a few issues here. Ideally, MM or one of the mods would step in to make a public statement.
As others have said, a lot of people post here without showing their face (or any photo of them), and that's fine. When JellynCustard started, she filmed videos with a mask on, but that didn't make her fake. So, at one extreme, it would be unfair to say "Oh, you're claiming to be a woman? Well, photos can be faked/stolen, so you need to do a video where you're holding up today's newspaper and a copy of your UMD username, and strip naked so that we can verify your body parts." We don't expect men to jump through all those hoops, and putting women (or people who claim to be women) through much greater scrutiny isn't going to make them feel welcome.
On the other hand, suppose that I had a blank profile picture, but said "Hey, trust me, I'm a really fit 20 year old guy, I've got rock hard 6-pack abs, and I'm hung like a baboon." I think it would be reasonable for people to be sceptical about that! If I kept shoehorning those comments into irrelevant conversations, it would probably annoy people. ("Hey, great video! I sat here watching it on my buns of steel...")
In Sinamin's case, there were other red flags. She said that she couldn't take photos on her phone, because her boss would see a copy of them. Now, it's plausible that someone could be issued with a work phone, backed up to a shared iCloud account (or similar). However, most people in that situation would have a separate phone that they use for personal stuff. In this case, she presumably wasn't connecting to the UMD on the work phone, so maybe she had a computer for that? In that case, you can buy a standalone digital camera for £20 on Amazon. It doesn't have to be "semi-professional quality", just good enough for a selfie (if you're claiming that's the only reason you can't post a photo).
There were also inconsistencies about her plans. She said "I'm going to post free photos, what do you have to lose by being patient?" However, her signature said "Your pleasure is my business" and she talked about opening a store and selling stuff.
Like Candy and Jayce said, I've got no problem with someone posting "doll WAM" here. Not my thing, but no harm in it either. Just be honest! Over on Twitter, there's an account for "Larry" (the cat at 10 Downing Street), which is obviously not the actual cat. However, in this case she claimed to be insulted that people had said she looked like a doll, and other people came to her defence. ("Hey, haters, looks like she proved you wrong with this photo!" "I only see a picture of a beautiful woman.") I think those people had an emotional investment in her, and it's not fair to jerk them around.
As a more controversial point, I'd personally like to stop anyone from using a photo of someone else as their profile picture. E.g. I know that Rich always uses his latest model, and he's not trying to deceive anyone, but it creates a grey area. Cartoon characters or photos of animals are fine.
As others have said, a lot of people post here without showing their face (or any photo of them), and that's fine. When JellynCustard started, she filmed videos with a mask on, but that didn't make her fake. So, at one extreme, it would be unfair to say "Oh, you're claiming to be a woman? Well, photos can be faked/stolen, so you need to do a video where you're holding up today's newspaper and a copy of your UMD username, and strip naked so that we can verify your body parts." We don't expect men to jump through all those hoops, and putting women (or people who claim to be women) through much greater scrutiny isn't going to make them feel welcome.
On the other hand, suppose that I had a blank profile picture, but said "Hey, trust me, I'm a really fit 20 year old guy, I've got rock hard 6-pack abs, and I'm hung like a baboon." I think it would be reasonable for people to be sceptical about that! If I kept shoehorning those comments into irrelevant conversations, it would probably annoy people. ("Hey, great video! I sat here watching it on my buns of steel...")
In Sinamin's case, there were other red flags. She said that she couldn't take photos on her phone, because her boss would see a copy of them. Now, it's plausible that someone could be issued with a work phone, backed up to a shared iCloud account (or similar). However, most people in that situation would have a separate phone that they use for personal stuff. In this case, she presumably wasn't connecting to the UMD on the work phone, so maybe she had a computer for that? In that case, you can buy a standalone digital camera for £20 on Amazon. It doesn't have to be "semi-professional quality", just good enough for a selfie (if you're claiming that's the only reason you can't post a photo).
There were also inconsistencies about her plans. She said "I'm going to post free photos, what do you have to lose by being patient?" However, her signature said "Your pleasure is my business" and she talked about opening a store and selling stuff.
Like Candy and Jayce said, I've got no problem with someone posting "doll WAM" here. Not my thing, but no harm in it either. Just be honest! Over on Twitter, there's an account for "Larry" (the cat at 10 Downing Street), which is obviously not the actual cat. However, in this case she claimed to be insulted that people had said she looked like a doll, and other people came to her defence. ("Hey, haters, looks like she proved you wrong with this photo!" "I only see a picture of a beautiful woman.") I think those people had an emotional investment in her, and it's not fair to jerk them around.
As a more controversial point, I'd personally like to stop anyone from using a photo of someone else as their profile picture. E.g. I know that Rich always uses his latest model, and he's not trying to deceive anyone, but it creates a grey area. Cartoon characters or photos of animals are fine.
ItsJay said:
DUDE! YOU CAN'T SAY THAT! (sarcasm) since it's not obvious in type.
Yet, kids aren't taught this in school anymore, and there are ALREADY published science papers being overruled and destroyed because their already accepted conclusions are "hateful".
So I'm wondering what was the RIGHT (as in not politically right, but ethically correct) thing to do here?
We want to be inclusive of new members here right? However, we live in a time where people identify as things like dragons and shit sometimes. Where do we draw the line between what is acceptable and what isn't. I love that not a good name posted the Lars trailer. Either Sinamin is a seriously delusional person or having a great laugh right now. I tend to think the later, but I've personally known people who were the former. So I tried to approach it cautiously and encourage them. That way, they could either do their thing, or expose themselves; which they ultimately did.
We can't draw the line at truth or lies. People lie about who they are all the time here, and not always in an intentionally hurtful way. Look at drag queens for instance, they are performers and characters. Look at people who hide their identity for employment or family reasons. "We can't card people at the door" like dalamar666 said. It's a ridiculous notion.
Do we censor? Ultimately, that's MM's call. I reported Sinamin's last post because I wanted him to personally review this debacle and make the call himself. It's his site, more importantly, it's HIS PLACE OF BUSINESS. I don't think mods are ban or delete happy here. I know MM, I know Soundguy, but none of the others. Bob, seems to steer clear of things, Yammie may as well be a ghost, and while Booth was trigger happy in the past, I haven't seen him do much in the past 6 months or so. I think this is because no one wants to pull the trigger anymore.
I'm positive that MM is the one who did the deleting. I'm also sure he will eventually come on, address it, and explain why he did when he has collected the right words to articulate WHY. Let's be real here, he HAD to delete that shit. To us INSIDE, we can know what's going on and call it for what it may or may not be.
But like I said, this is his business. Also, it's an open forum anyone can see. Maybe a good idea would be to make ALL forum threads by default unavailable to public browers (non-users) and have to click them to be visible (the exact opposite of how they are now). Then at least it's only people on the inside seeing the fighting going on.
Personally, my position was to let them go, to literally be passive. Actually, that's not entirely true. I encouraged them so that if they were delusional or escaping reality, they would feel welcome here. I have enough problems in life that I try and reach out to others that do too. However, I thought that by doing this it would also relax them. This would in turn make them show themselves. If Sinamin had come out and said "Yo, I'm a woman, but I can't show myself so I'm going to WAM a sex doll" I'd have been down with that. Like you do you boo, knock yourself out. By letting it go the way I did it let her just break down and reveal themselves for what they are.
Other people called it out immediately, and I have no problem with that if I were a mod if they weren't being hateful. If someone said something like "I smell fish" I'd let it go. If someone said something more derogatory, I'd probably have deleted it too. Like MM has said before, billers sometimes come here, and sometimes address stuff to him.
One thing I'm certain of is that I'm pissed THIS made a 20.5 year member leave.
Potatoman-J said:
its 2018, isn't 'gender' just a 'social construct' anymore?
A quote used by a child in Kindergarten Cop
"boys have penises girls have vaginas an dolls have rubber insides"
A quote used by a child in Kindergarten Cop
"boys have penises girls have vaginas an dolls have rubber insides"
DUDE! YOU CAN'T SAY THAT! (sarcasm) since it's not obvious in type.
Yet, kids aren't taught this in school anymore, and there are ALREADY published science papers being overruled and destroyed because their already accepted conclusions are "hateful".
So I'm wondering what was the RIGHT (as in not politically right, but ethically correct) thing to do here?
We want to be inclusive of new members here right? However, we live in a time where people identify as things like dragons and shit sometimes. Where do we draw the line between what is acceptable and what isn't. I love that not a good name posted the Lars trailer. Either Sinamin is a seriously delusional person or having a great laugh right now. I tend to think the later, but I've personally known people who were the former. So I tried to approach it cautiously and encourage them. That way, they could either do their thing, or expose themselves; which they ultimately did.
We can't draw the line at truth or lies. People lie about who they are all the time here, and not always in an intentionally hurtful way. Look at drag queens for instance, they are performers and characters. Look at people who hide their identity for employment or family reasons. "We can't card people at the door" like dalamar666 said. It's a ridiculous notion.
Do we censor? Ultimately, that's MM's call. I reported Sinamin's last post because I wanted him to personally review this debacle and make the call himself. It's his site, more importantly, it's HIS PLACE OF BUSINESS. I don't think mods are ban or delete happy here. I know MM, I know Soundguy, but none of the others. Bob, seems to steer clear of things, Yammie may as well be a ghost, and while Booth was trigger happy in the past, I haven't seen him do much in the past 6 months or so. I think this is because no one wants to pull the trigger anymore.
I'm positive that MM is the one who did the deleting. I'm also sure he will eventually come on, address it, and explain why he did when he has collected the right words to articulate WHY. Let's be real here, he HAD to delete that shit. To us INSIDE, we can know what's going on and call it for what it may or may not be.
But like I said, this is his business. Also, it's an open forum anyone can see. Maybe a good idea would be to make ALL forum threads by default unavailable to public browers (non-users) and have to click them to be visible (the exact opposite of how they are now). Then at least it's only people on the inside seeing the fighting going on.
Personally, my position was to let them go, to literally be passive. Actually, that's not entirely true. I encouraged them so that if they were delusional or escaping reality, they would feel welcome here. I have enough problems in life that I try and reach out to others that do too. However, I thought that by doing this it would also relax them. This would in turn make them show themselves. If Sinamin had come out and said "Yo, I'm a woman, but I can't show myself so I'm going to WAM a sex doll" I'd have been down with that. Like you do you boo, knock yourself out. By letting it go the way I did it let her just break down and reveal themselves for what they are.
Other people called it out immediately, and I have no problem with that if I were a mod if they weren't being hateful. If someone said something like "I smell fish" I'd let it go. If someone said something more derogatory, I'd probably have deleted it too. Like MM has said before, billers sometimes come here, and sometimes address stuff to him.
One thing I'm certain of is that I'm pissed THIS made a 20.5 year member leave.
He's more potato now than man. Twisted and evil.
Ztd helped me open up about my fetish and share it with you all... This sinamin situation has damn near killed any trust in this community... We wanted to help encourage others to be comfortable with their fetish and be open about it... This whole situation negates what we wanted to do and completely discourages me from wanting to post on here... So thanks mods you took the side of a sex doll and made me not want to share with this community ever again... I was so excited to come out about my fetish and share with this community and now it's tainted. Yeah it's the internet and shit like this will happen but when the mods take the side of a sketch profile and they do exactly what we expected then why the fuck should I trust posting my personal experiences on this site? My girlfriend and I wanted to share with this community and the community wanted more... But thanks to. The mods on this site my fetish and sexual life are likely to stay private.... Congrats UMD you mucked this one up
polishph06 said: Ztd helped me open up about my fetish and share it with you all... This sinamin situation has damn near killed any trust in this community... We wanted to help encourage others to be comfortable with their fetish and be open about it... This whole situation negates what we wanted to do and completely discourages me from wanting to post on here... So thanks mods you took the side of a sex doll and made me not want to share with this community ever again... I was so excited to come out about my fetish and share with this community and now it's tainted. Yeah it's the internet and shit like this will happen but when the mods take the side of a sketch profile and they do exactly what we expected then why the fuck should I trust posting my personal experiences on this site? My girlfriend and I wanted to share with this community and the community wanted more... But thanks to. The mods on this site my fetish and sexual life are likely to stay private.... Congrats UMD you mucked this one up
You say this like the mods knew it was a fake and deliberately went along with it. Is it not better to give someone the benefit of the doubt and let them hoist themselves on their own petard? If you think not, good riddance.
There were enough red flags and past bullshit on these Forums they should have known
I think in this case it was obvious to most people who had been here a while that this was a fake for the reasons others laid out. The problem with these sorts of posters is that they get off on the fantasy of pretending and that includes all the many private messages they engage in with others who are wishing that they are talking to a real woman. That is an unseen side of this and it is wrong to be playing on the emotions of others for your own kicks when not being honest.
I got lots of negative messages when I called out Justine for the same thing. Many were too far invested in their new flirt buddy that they refused to see the obvious. Some then turn it to say that I was being transphobic. Which is ridiculous. People are always welcome to identify however they wish. But when it's based on lies and they start involving others who do not realise and become emotionally invested then it's wrong.
I'm pleased some people had the balls to publicly call out what most could see.
I got lots of negative messages when I called out Justine for the same thing. Many were too far invested in their new flirt buddy that they refused to see the obvious. Some then turn it to say that I was being transphobic. Which is ridiculous. People are always welcome to identify however they wish. But when it's based on lies and they start involving others who do not realise and become emotionally invested then it's wrong.
I'm pleased some people had the balls to publicly call out what most could see.
Rich, I truthfully didn't know that was part of why Regis left.
I owe an apology to Davina, as I did offer a slight rebuke to her comment.
To me the, red flag was that an employer owned her smart phone, which doesn't happen except in intel, and that an agency wanted her to have H cups....trust me, that don't happen.
I owe an apology to Davina, as I did offer a slight rebuke to her comment.
To me the, red flag was that an employer owned her smart phone, which doesn't happen except in intel, and that an agency wanted her to have H cups....trust me, that don't happen.
polishph06 said: My girlfriend and I wanted to share with this community and the community wanted more... But thanks to. The mods on this site my fetish and sexual life are likely to stay private.... Congrats UMD you mucked this one up
If you want anyone to blame for your lack of trust to share with the community, blame me. I reported the poster without a pic that was being more than skeptic. There is nothing wrong with a little skepticism, but in my mind they went too far. I also know that if I was wrong MM would have messaged me about it. He is open like that.
I don't see the connection between the owner of the site removing negative content from a forum they own and you not trusting the community enough to share pictures. But that is just me.
MMasia said: I think in this case it was obvious to most people who had been here a while that this was a fake for the reasons others laid out. The problem with these sorts of posters is that they get off on the fantasy of pretending and that includes all the many private messages they engage in with others who are wishing that they are talking to a real woman. That is an unseen side of this and it is wrong to be playing on the emotions of others for your own kicks when not being honest.
I got lots of negative messages when I called out Justine for the same thing. Many were too far invested in their new flirt buddy that they refused to see the obvious. Some then turn it to say that I was being transphobic. Which is ridiculous. People are always welcome to identify however they wish. But when it's based on lies and they start involving others who do not realise and become emotionally invested then it's wrong.
I'm pleased some people had the balls to publicly call out what most could see.
I got lots of negative messages when I called out Justine for the same thing. Many were too far invested in their new flirt buddy that they refused to see the obvious. Some then turn it to say that I was being transphobic. Which is ridiculous. People are always welcome to identify however they wish. But when it's based on lies and they start involving others who do not realise and become emotionally invested then it's wrong.
I'm pleased some people had the balls to publicly call out what most could see.
Great post. I just want to reiterate that my point above (lost because I did not state it well) revolves around less censorship and less sensitivity. Allow people to call out Sinamin (not be bullies, but to call her out a bit). Someone in the other thread mentioned the dude who liked to wam dolls. He took some ribbing at first, but others defended him and now he regularly posts now and people like his stuff. That is how it should work.
CKCP said: Someone in the other thread mentioned the dude who liked to wam dolls. He took some ribbing at first, but others defended him and now he regularly posts now and people like his stuff. That is how it should work.
That would be me. The difference here is that when I first posted, I made it clear that they were twelve inch moveable figurines. I even had the characters (two of them) 'converse' with forum members in public posts, obviously pretending that these minis could talk. Nobody ever thought they were real, naturally. Others here write stories, some do animations, others comic-book style art, and it's all awesome, all various ways to enjoy the fantasy element of wam. I did not see the 'sex doll' photo, but if that was what it was, and it was being passed off as a human person, that is wrong. That is misleading everyone. I'm sure if someone wanted to drop a couple of grand on a sex doll and shoot messy photos, a segment of the forum members would be accepting, while it might not be other people's cup of tea. But they would have to SAY it is sex-doll wam, and certainly not pretend it is a real person.
The bottom line here is simply honesty. If it looks somewhat real, but isn't, then SAY it isn't. Don't mislead people. Simple.
Sooooo?
Does the UMD now needs a Sex Doll section in the forums?
Does the UMD now needs a Sex Doll section in the forums?
SStuff said: FTR, Regis made it clear to me that he had been frustrated with the overly agressive censorship & deleting of his posts for a while now.... But yes, the "Sinamin" appearance was the straw that broke him. I didn't see his post before a mod deleted it, but apparently he called out "her" many and obvious red flags, as many others did as well. (He probably did it with more humor/snark tho.)
I get that the mods are trying to make everyone feel welcome here and will err on the side of caution, but at some point, you HAVE to let the community police itself. Deleting posts that are (correctly) calling out a Catfisher or scammer don't help anyone.
I get that the mods are trying to make everyone feel welcome here and will err on the side of caution, but at some point, you HAVE to let the community police itself. Deleting posts that are (correctly) calling out a Catfisher or scammer don't help anyone.
I've deleted probably 1% of Regis's posts. People complained about him constantly, but I understood his schtick, as many here did. So I used judgement that he meant no harm with his wit, and I did nothing most of the time. But once in a while, you do have to step in.
Some people do not take well to being moderated, even if it's only once in a while. But if you post that much witty stuff, now and then something goes over the line. (By the way, I believe I was the only one taking any action on Regis. People can stop saying a mod removed something, because I take 100% responsibility.)
In this final case, he responded within 5 minutes to a brand-new member, saying she'd be receiving an introductory packet of dick picks. Now how does that look to other prospective female members thinking about posting? Honestly, a particular user may actually deserve everything you dish at them. They're trolling us and sometimes it's painfully obvious. But what's more important than that is how we as a community speak about people we are skeptical about. How we handle the latter is way more important to me, because being mean and nasty to someone who deserves it causes people to be mean and nasty to people who don't. Trust me; This is very true.
I am not always at liberty to say what is going on behind the scenes. I consider a whole host of criteria, logs, context, and advice from others before making a move. Doesn't make me always right, and sometimes it takes a bit longer than people like. But I have been consistent with the principles of how this forum is moderated, and I've always answered everyone's questions about why an action has been made.... If they bother to ask.
Peace,
Messmaster
Stay messy, my friends
CKCP said: When did we get so fragile that being skeptical of a new posters intent will drive that person away? With this recent event, people rightfully were skeptical and posted accordingly. Why not allow that? If they are wrong, then show that they are wrong. But to censor because, OH NO, we might lose the great contributions of Sinamon!
A lot of people think that's what's happening, but they are wrong. Being able to respectfully speak your mind is one of the most important pillars of our philosophy here.
I remember back when Messy Toni first appeared on the forum. There was a fellow who responded and said he thought she was a man. People were all over him, calling him disrespectful, and it became a big huge argument. But I never removed his posts, though people were blasting me saying I should. The guy explained himself, was not belligerent, and I really believed he was stating his honest opinion. Healthy skepticism.
Of course the guy was completely wrong as Toni is very much female. (I even met her and her guy, and that was the first actual wam shoot I had ever been to.) That the guy was wrong about her on the forum didn't matter because honest opinion, stated respectfully, is okay here.
There was some of that in the Sinamon thread (thank you those who get it!), but otherwise it was getting nasty. Saying she'll get dick pics. Multiple accusations of being a catfish. Bringing up Chris again. This is the stuff that makes threads belligerent. It's not about censorship or bring fragile or being "snowflakes" as Regis said in one of his rare inbox messages to me. I encourage members to speak up when they see something they think is wrong, and in the background I am doing my own research and talking to people so that I can make an informed decision. (She ended up removing her own account just before I was about to remove it.)
That I occasionally decide to remove a message from my site doesn't mean the site has turned Orwellian. We go by the exact same rules as we have since the forum started.
Sorry for another long message, but I really want people to understand my motives. I am ALWAYS available for conversation if you are unclear.
Messmaster
Stay messy, my friends
MMasia said: I think in this case it was obvious to most people who had been here a while that this was a fake for the reasons others laid out. The problem with these sorts of posters is that they get off on the fantasy of pretending and that includes all the many private messages they engage in with others who are wishing that they are talking to a real woman. That is an unseen side of this and it is wrong to be playing on the emotions of others for your own kicks when not being honest.
This is why I pulled him up on it. I let it go for ages, but I stepped in because I was genuinely upset and horrified that people were literally being catfished (and I'm sorry MM but that is 100% the correct term for what this was) here. It was so obvious that this was a scam and so evident that people were going to get hurt by being dragged into the story, and the risk of someone getting scammed out of cash looked *incredibly* high (and can I say, if everyone had just 'left Sinamin to it' we can't guarantee what would have happened next). I got absolutely slaughtered on here for that, and my posts were deleted (first just a couple, then everything I had ever posted to Sinamin). The Sinamin account on the other hand was allowed to take this all the way to the flounce-off on its own terms. We don't know what happened via PM and offsite as a part of this, or who got hurt or upset or heartbroken. There is potentially much more to this than what happened on-forum.
The thing that offended me most though? His weaponisation of the very real problem of harrassment of female members. Letting him carry on dragging that out to hide behind whilst censoring posts critical of him was, to me, giving all the cards to the harrassers. Stuff like this is an integral part of why women don't like it here - the creeps get the benefit of the doubt too often. Again, because all the bad stuff happens via PM and in other places, it's another thing swept under the carpet in pretending it only goes on in public.
For those that angrily defended Sinamin and rounded up on me, and that are *still* trying to defend your actions, shame on you. FWIW I do feel like I was treated with more hostility than the weirdo doll scammer and it has soured my experience here.
flex_oberon said:
This is why I pulled him up on it. I let it go for ages, but I stepped in because I was genuinely upset and horrified that people were literally being catfished (and I'm sorry MM but that is 100% the correct term for what this was) here. It was so obvious that this was a scam and so evident that people were going to get hurt by being dragged into the story, and the risk of someone getting scammed out of cash looked *incredibly* high (and can I say, if everyone had just 'left Sinamin to it' we can't guarantee what would have happened next). I got absolutely slaughtered on here for that, and my posts were deleted (first just a couple, then everything I had ever posted to Sinamin). The Sinamin account on the other hand was allowed to take this all the way to the flounce-off on its own terms. We don't know what happened via PM and offsite as a part of this, or who got hurt or upset or heartbroken. There is potentially much more to this than what happened on-forum.
The thing that offended me most though? His weaponisation of the very real problem of harrassment of female members. Letting him carry on dragging that out to hide behind whilst censoring posts critical of him was, to me, giving all the cards to the harrassers. Stuff like this is an integral part of why women don't like it here - the creeps get the benefit of the doubt too often. Again, because all the bad stuff happens via PM and in other places, it's another thing swept under the carpet in pretending it only goes on in public.
For those that angrily defended Sinamin and rounded up on me, and that are *still* trying to defend your actions, shame on you. FWIW I do feel like I was treated with more hostility than the weirdo doll scammer and it has soured my experience here.
This is why I pulled him up on it. I let it go for ages, but I stepped in because I was genuinely upset and horrified that people were literally being catfished (and I'm sorry MM but that is 100% the correct term for what this was) here. It was so obvious that this was a scam and so evident that people were going to get hurt by being dragged into the story, and the risk of someone getting scammed out of cash looked *incredibly* high (and can I say, if everyone had just 'left Sinamin to it' we can't guarantee what would have happened next). I got absolutely slaughtered on here for that, and my posts were deleted (first just a couple, then everything I had ever posted to Sinamin). The Sinamin account on the other hand was allowed to take this all the way to the flounce-off on its own terms. We don't know what happened via PM and offsite as a part of this, or who got hurt or upset or heartbroken. There is potentially much more to this than what happened on-forum.
The thing that offended me most though? His weaponisation of the very real problem of harrassment of female members. Letting him carry on dragging that out to hide behind whilst censoring posts critical of him was, to me, giving all the cards to the harrassers. Stuff like this is an integral part of why women don't like it here - the creeps get the benefit of the doubt too often. Again, because all the bad stuff happens via PM and in other places, it's another thing swept under the carpet in pretending it only goes on in public.
For those that angrily defended Sinamin and rounded up on me, and that are *still* trying to defend your actions, shame on you. FWIW I do feel like I was treated with more hostility than the weirdo doll scammer and it has soured my experience here.
Flex, you saw through this early on, but got crucified for it. It's a shame the forum members jumped on each other over this. I don't know how things could have been handled differently. There has to be some kind of balance between trusting a new user and being careful that they don't do this sort of thing to the community.
As many know, I have been creating 'doll wam' with twelve inch figurines on here and actually like the concept of using a human-sized doll. I'm afraid that whole idea has now been tarnished. If me, or anyone else, were to introduce wam with a sex-doll, it would simply remind everyone of this debacle and turn them away from the idea. Maybe if some time passed by, people might have a chance to forget this mess and be open to life-sized doll-wam, but it would have to be crystal clear that it is only a chunk of silicone, and not be portrayed as a person.
This Sinamin situation has now made it harder for new female members to come here, harder for long-time members to call out a skunk when they smell one, and left a bad taste in many people's mouths. Also we lost Regis, and perhaps this contributed to his decision to leave.
I think we can learn from this though, to give the benefit of the doubt to a degree - but not to carry it too far until that person has made good on whatever claims they are making. Hopefully new members won't feel the need to make claims at all. That also might be suggested in the agreement they read when creating a profile.
Another possibility would be for MessMaster to create a 'trial' period, where a new member may post, but may not send or receive private messages or use the chatroom. Sort of like getting your driver's license where you start off with a learners permit.
Lastly, a lot of people were very gullible - defending this user who they didn't even know, based on an empty promise of sexy photos to be provided later on. I think we can all learn something from this and just be a little more cautious when a new user makes a lot of promises.
Thank you. (For what it's worth, your doll pictures were really cool and creative and artistic, because straight away you presented them as an art project and they could be appreciated at face value.)
flex_oberon said: Thank you. (For what it's worth, your doll pictures were really cool and creative and artistic, because straight away you presented them as an art project and they could be appreciated at face value.)
If I were to do the doll wam with a life-sized one, I would also present it as something artistic and certainly not mislead anyone to think they are real photos. The more I think about it, the more I want to try it, but these dolls don't come cheap!
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