As I browse various websites, including this one, I often see "I love humiliation" written on a profile - or something of that nature. But if you love being humiliated, is it really humiliation? Surely if you are enjoying it, you're not really humiliated?

Any thoughts?

Feelings of shame are involuntary, so it doesn't matter if you voluntarily put yourself in a position of shame, so long as you still have that emotional response. In that sense, voluntary humiliation isn't an oxymoron, or at least isn't totally misleading.

Acts of expected humiliation stop being humiliating when they stop having an edge, i.e., when you get so used to certain voluntary rituals that they take on a meaning that you're proud of, or even bored of.

some people enjoy the feeling of pudding/slime/etc being stuffed into their knickers, or the way saturated clothing clings to the body...

I could list more, but i think you might be getting the idea.

I'm not close enough to the humiliation thrills to have a good explanation (how did such a condition develop?) but it's easy for me to accept that someone could be fully aware that they are being humiliated and enjoy it at the same time.

With that being said, you do have a bit of a point at the same time!

I met with someone once, and I felt like he wasn't actually humiliated, but got off on the ideal of him being humiliated, and he was using pies as a way to conjure a reasonable facsimile of being humiliated.

That's kinda what I create in my head. I imagine what they are thinking, and them getting pied or slimed is scenario that I imagine they have failed or been humiliated in.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Will need to ponder more an this I'm glad you brought this up.

The other person is consenting to the mental experience. Therefore they want to receive. I see this confusion a lot. Just because someone likes a fetish or is submissive. It doesn't give other people the right to do it to (dominate) them ALL the time. Play is a two-way door. Someone gives, the other person receives. I would not condone anyone humiliating someone else without consent. Plain stupid.

Regards,

Andy and the team.

I don't think anyone was remotely suggesting that.

My sub loves to be humiliated. I know this goes outside of UMD's scope but a lot of things he would normally avoid doing if he had complete control he fucking LOVES being forced to do. For instance, he hates getting his clothes messy, If I forcibly grab him, shove him into the tub and ruin his shirt he is all over it! Or got forbit I spill a drink on him in public and make him walk around with an awkward water mark outside of his control. He would never choose for it to happen, but the fact that someone has forced him into it is the part that gets him.

And if you think, well, if he enjoys it he isn't humiliated I would retort that at no point is he not embarrassed. He is beet red and hot in the face the entire time. He doesn't like the staring or weird looks, but it is exactly that that gets him off.

My gf says she does not like wam. I'm not sure she is 100% against it cause she does smile and laugh at times when I get her messy. But there are some pics where she looks pretty defeated and is not smiling. I alway give her a spot check after we r done showering off and she is super wet. I alway call her out on this and she denies being turned on, even when I use items she hates, or take all the stuff in the tub and mix it up and dump it back on her head at the end, still gets her wet. she also likes to know which pic in an album got the most likes and likes knowing what people said about her pics too, but will complain when she checks the pics before i post them saying there are too many, so I dunno?
But at the end of the day I'm just happy she lets me get her messy and upload pics of her so I'm not gonna ask her to much about why she claims she doesn't like it but also gets super wet

Hi Webcamplayer.

This is an interesting subject. Here's my perspective. Personally, I consider humiliation to be a kink of mine, and although I do derive pleasure from it in some respects, I also find it incredibly uncomfortable in others.

For me the link between humiliation and gratification is the adrenaline rush I get from it. Feeling genuinely nervous about doing something, the increased heart rate, more rapid breathing, it just makes me feel more alive and on edge. That doesn't necessarily mean I'm actually enjoying the situation, although it does heighten my stimulating.

As a fantasy, the idea of humiliation is something I often think about. However in reality the experience can vary from 'actually, this isn't so bad' to 'why the hell am I putting myself through this?'.

Another way I've been able capture this exciting nervous feeling isn't just through humiliation, but the risk of humiliation. This is why I love the idea of games and bets with forfeits. Just the idea of possibly putting myself in an embarrassing or uncomfortable situation has the same desired effect. There have been times when I've increased the risk by including potential forfeits that I know I'd find genuinely devastating to do. The excitement is in the risk, however if I lose I derive no pleasure in the act, far from it. It also helps that I'm not above a little schadenfreude, which makes playing such games with others all the more fun. So long as it is in good natured and nothing cruel.

Yes, I perfectly understand the appeal of games because the adrenaline rush comes from the game itself - in my case at least - whether the game is wam forfeits or not.

It's one of those words that gets banded about and means different things to different people. There's both positive and negative humiliation and the lines between the two can be very blurred. Positive humiliation is something that is explored a lot on this site and similar sites. The idea that you've been made a fool of in front of people but you actually quite enjoyed it and/or can laugh it off. Whereas negative humiliation is the exact opposite.
For example, say someone just randomly pies someone in the face in front of their friends. That can be positive humiliation for someone who would laugh it off or who agreed to it for charity or something like that, or, in the case of many on here, actually got a little bit turned on by it. But it could also be very negative humiliation for someone else. That someone else could feel hurt or embarrassed by the incident, even violated.
It's up to the individual to decide what and what isn't humiliation for them and whether they enjoy their definition of humiliation or not.
Hope that made sense

This helps put this into perspective for me and understand at least on some level. I'm the type that can't do this, and thus it's kinda hard for me to imagine being in this mind set of being turned onto something by something I "didnt' like".

Like the tub thing, if I were shooting with someone and she pulled me in, I'd probably be pissed if I were wearing something I really liked, or I had my phone on me, etc. But otherwise I'd probably not care.

I don't really see myself as being dominant or submissive either. Like I guess I don't feel like I need to be in control of a situation, but I MUST be in control of myself in any situation. And I could care less about controlling others. Not sure where that would put me on the spectrum.

Specifically with humiliation, I'm not the hugest of fans. If it starts off embarrassing, but the person starts to feel better about it, then I don't mind. But if they're actually miserable, it makes me feel miserable. I guess I'm a bit empathic that way.

Well put Scott. To expand on your point a little, there are many different factors to consider that would impact the experience. Is the embarrassing act being done consensually, or is it a situation forced upon someone? Is it happening in good natured fun, or is it being done maliciously with the intent on genuinely belittling someone? Is there a power dynamic involved? Are you being embarrassed by a peer, or someone with some sort of authority over you? Do you feel as if you are being unfairly pressured into doing something? Is the humiliation happening in a controlled environment around people you feel comfortable with, or is the situation too out of your control?

Here are a couple of examples

Scenario one:
Two friends who support rival teams are watching football in their home. Before the match they agree that the fan who supports the losing team has to do a dance while wearing a dress. If you put yourself in the shoes of the loser in this scenario, this is something most guys would feel really uncomfortable doing and will probably leave them cringing at the memory for years to come, yet nothing about this situation is malicious.

Scenario two:
Somebody makes a clerical error at the office. When one of the managers discovers this, rather than have a discrete word in their ear about it, they decide to make a big scene. They give the employee a verbal earful in front of the rest of the staff and a room full of clients. They call the employee derogatory names, they imply that the employee is useless and inept. This experience may not leave the employee cringing in the same way scenario one would, but this is still humiliating and not in a good natured way.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, just because someone finds humiliation (or maybe just the idea of humiliation) exciting on some level, it doesn't mean every time they've felt embarrassed has been a positive experience.

her humiliation
*edit, sorry not sure why these are tagged male and don't know how to change it ?

For me, there is a difference between REAL humiliation and PLAY humiliation. I actually think I developed this fetish at a young age watching TV gunge and pie scenes, because I was so completely, viscerally scared and and anxious watching those - what I (mostly wrongly) perceived to be - real, cruel humiliations. I was repelled and yet fascinated. And naturally, once adolescence hit, it all coalesced into a full blown fetish.

I would absolutely never wish to be genuinely humiliated in front of anybody. But when my partner gunges and pies me (god I love her) it's pure play that taps into those conflicted feelings that still exist in me at 30 years old.

But what I realised after my first couple of messy sessions was that because we both KNEW I actually wanted to be gunged, there was absolutely no point pretending otherwise.

So we switched to a form of humiliation where she playfully teases me and 'shames' me for the fact that I DO want the gunge. How strange that is and what a weird pervert that makes me. And ending with a kind of "look at you! THIS is what you wanted is it?" So kind of meta humiliation I guess?

But when I watch messy scenes, I still get off on somebody else's real or feigned discomfort or humiliation at the situation. The idea that they DON'T want to be gunged. But that's not something I can recreate, because I DO want it.

I would have really conflicted feelings if I ever had the opportunity to be gunged or pied in the 'real world' because in many ways, it's sort of the gold standard, yet I'd be mortified that somebody might be able to tell I was getting off on it. Because of course for most people, gunge and pies are simply amusing, wholesome slapstick.

But neither scenario is in a sexual context, which is rather what we are talking about here.

I guess the big question in the sexual context is whether those involved who "like" humiliation are really being humiliated or if they are simply playing the part?

Hi Webcamplayer. Actually, as much as the football bet scenario would have me cringing and would be genuinely difficult for me to go through with... I'd probably still get a kick out of it, whereas I wouldn't with the office scenario.

If somebody gets off on CBT it doesn't mean they are not experiencing pain, even though it arouses them. For me, humiliation can do the same, but it doesn't make it any less humiliating.

Fantastic post, GungeConnoisseur.

This!!! For me at least, so much of the 'humiliation' is mental, and being driven by me. Whether I'm watching someone else get slimed (and empathizing with how gross and humiliating it would be for that to happen to me), or dumping slime on someone else (and putting someone else thru my biggest fear/nightmare/turn on), or getting slimed (and living thru the humiliation fantasy in real time), it's a turn on because I'm leaning into what I've decided is humiliating. Which is mostly due to what turns me on. So it's all in my head.

For example;
To someone else, being called a dumb whore might be humiliating (and a turn on). To me, that just makes me feel like the person calling me a dumb whore is insecure, which makes me sad for them. And does not turn me on. Objectively speaking, I'd wager 8/10 ppl would say being called a dumb whore is humiliating. In my head, it isn't.

Just like 8/10 ppl would probably say getting slimed is "fun and silly". In my head, it's the ultimate form of humiliation. Is that because I watched too much YCDTOTV as a kid and was conditioned to think that? Or is it because I found something that turned me on and have created a construct in my head about certain things in order to intensify my feelings... Probably a bit of both, but I think it's a lot more of the latter than the former. It's mostly my doing in terms of what constitutes humiliating from a turn on perspective.

I don't think the two points are totally in opposition

Watch some old TV shows where people were gunged and they were clearly humiliated but also found it funny and even enjoyed it a bit

They were in on the joke and had some control over it. They chose to be on the show and get messy and so the audience was laughing with them, not at them

That element of consent and control is crucial and what separates that from something like that Brazilian show we saw clips from where the people getting pied were clearly upset and angry about it and it makes enjoying seeing them messy a bit uncomfortable

I think this also applies to it as a fetish

What people associate with a humiliating experience (nerves, anxiety, shame, physical discomfort and so on) is all still there but they are choosing to experience it which makes all the difference

With some humiliation it's the like it but don't want to like it factor. I top. If I can find something that someone uses often to incorporate into play then I know each time they use it for a while afterwards they will think of me. I had a play partner who put salad cream on roast dinners. Add pallet wrap and a wand vibrator to that and I have a wonderful memory and there's a gentle humiliation I can still use any time we're around salad cream.

Having written extensively on the subject of erotic humiliation before I'm going to see if I can constrain my tendencies to waffle on for ages and give just a succinct beginner level understanding of what is at play.

Freud's Superego, Ego and ID model of the mind gives the clearest way for us to get an idea of what is going on with humiliation.

For those that don't know the model Freud proposed three agents that made up the psyche:

The ID (inner desires): Your instinctual desires which is governed by a desire to pursue things you find pleasurable and avoid those that provide pain or discomfort.

The Superego: The part of you that internalises the rules of society so that you can fulfil your desire to fit into it.

The Ego: The part of you that mediates the disagreements between the ID and SuperEgo.

For example: you've been in a meeting a long time and your bladder is starting to feel uncomfortably full.

Your ID: I want to pee now!

Your SuperEgo: It is socially unacceptable to wet yourself. You must use a toilet to relieve yourself. This meeting is so important that the boss might be annoyed if I ducked out briefly or interrupted it.

Your Ego: Takes a decision of whether to continue holding it in, risk the wrath of your boss by ducking out to run to the loo or just sit there and wet yourself.

Erotic humiliation is where you are providing someone's ID with something they really want but which their SuperEgo finds it humiliating/embarrassing. As it is the SuperEgo that internalises societies rules and that we use to create a persona that is more likely for others to accept us into a group it is easy for people to only view erotica humiliation through the eyes of what it does to a person's SuperEgo whilst missing the fact that secretly the ID part of their psyche is loving every fucking minute of it.

In BDSM erotic humiliation scenes remember that regardless of whether you follow SSC or RACK the C stands for Consent. Checklists of likes and limits, pre-scene negotiations, safewords and signals are all part of system that allows a Dominant in a scene to know that the Submissive is consenting to what is going on. In terms of BDSM and erotic humiliation the scene is either consensual or it is abuse.

I personally have a couple different categories for how people's ID's are deriving pleasure from the humiliation as it can make a difference in the sort of direction you might take it. They are as follows:

Primary Humiliation: This is an act that the ID enjoys even if humiliation wasn't present. At some point your SuperEgo may have learnt this wasn't social approved as so you have some embarrassment surrounding this desire and maybe even making it more taboo and kinky as a result.

Secondary Humiliation: This is where the ID gets enjoyment solely from the feelings of humiliating the SuperEgo. Enjoyment from the feeling of humiliation itself regardless of the act that causes it usually arises as a result of continually enjoying some form of Primary Humiliation and of which over time the mind creates a mental association between humiliation and pleasure in the same way operant conditioning resulted in Pavlov's dog to start salivating on the sound of a bell that usually meant meal time.

Tertiary Humiliation: This is where the ID get enjoyment from the risk or fear of humiliation but not from either the act or the humiliation itself. Follows a similar mental mechanism to that where the arousal from fear resulting from say roller coasters or a scary movie can be misinterpreted as attraction or romantic arousal by the brain. In this type neither the act nor the humiliation is enjoyed by the participant BUT unless you are prepared to make them follow through with whatever risk or gamble they made they will not be able to get the same gratification from making future gambles with you as they will no long be sure the risk is genuine.

Anyway I could blather on a lot more on the subject but should probably stop before it becomes too big a wall of text. But in short yes the whole point of erotic humiliation is to provide something the Submissive craves. A desire that their SuperEgo believes is so socially wrong that it is desire that they have long kept secret. Usually people are so terrified of sharing secrets that deep that they never do. So it takes a lot of courage for people to seek things like this and seek out their deepest desires.

I think you've nailed it here. I mentioned something in my previous post about how wam based humiliation didn't properly click for me until my partner and I switched from pretending I didn't want it, to acknowledging that I DO want it and THAT is what's actually humiliating.

I can only speak for myself and my experiences with a female dominartrixes years ago. One was very business like and it included spanking, paddling & after that it was sitting out on her front porch and getting hosed down in my clothes and then I'd climb in my (then) pick up truck and drive home drenched. (Plastic band asked to use the bathroag on the seat) So the humiliation aspect was that the neighbors could see me getting soaked and then walking to my truck and leaving. And it was always an issue trying the get back home & inside without being questioned or stared at, although one time I covered it by saying, "So I was at this girl's house as we were washing her car and I'd said some smart ass remark and she replied, "One more word from you!" as she pointed the hose towards me. So I said, "One more word!" and things kinda went downhill from there!"
The other was true pro dom with all kinds of toys in a warehouse area of Detroit. One time I was there and asked to use the bathroom and she replied, "After I pay my rent, come with me." We walked to the corner and down a street to a building & she told me, "Wait outside for me here."
So I waited still having to pee and it was hard to hold it, after about 5 minutes she came out and it had started to leak and she noticed and told me as we walked back to and around the corner towards her place she said, "Pee your pants as we walk!" (WS was part of my thing & hers) so I did as I was told but I really needed the relief anyway and of course about half way back to her building my pants were soaked and a guy came driving towards and then past us and the look on his shocked face I'll never forget. Kind of humiliating but I will admit I'd have to obey the command if I am ever in that position again. When she unlocked to door she looked at me and my wet pants and chuckled, "Wow you really needed to Pee!" as I went inside to get my spanking.
I miss her as she really knew her business always making sure I was getting really hurt but there was always a Lot of spanking just not too brutal.