Just out of curiosity, how many women here browse the male wam forum? Is it as exciting for you to go there as the main messy forum or is more of a place for gay and bi guys to look at guys?

thats actually a good question

My guess is that more gay guys look at it than girls.

Not to burst your bubble, but this fetish is about 99% male.
So if we assume that percentages for the entire population (about 10% are LBGT) hold for WAM, then you could argue that the 9-10% of men who are gay/bi browsing the Male forum vastly outnumber the 1% of total females. (And that's not even taking gay women who prefer female WAM into account... It's not common, but one of my best customers years ago was a lesbian who shared my taste in models!!)

There are also quite a few guys who post on both forums, so you can't assume ALL the men in the Male forum are gay, or even bi. I'd actually wager 10-20% of that forum is straight guys, even if they're only really looking for "women pieing men" posts. (Which is actually a common sub-fetish here.)

Finally, going by public posts, there's actually MORE women posting in this forum. Granted, the vast majority are promoting their own content... So they might be public in this forum, while quietly lurking in the other. But again, who knows for sure?

I really do not think this is even close to accurate. It might well be true for the total population of registered UMD members, but keep in mind that this site very much caters to male tastes and puts off (and in most cases chases away) the majority of genuine female wammers who visit it. (Many female wammers only check out the UMD as lurkers, and flee before ever considering registering as members.) I'm not saying the female wammer population is in any way equivalent in size to the male population, but I think a better estimate of the male-to-female wammer ratio would be something between 90%/10% and 85%/15%.

Ridiculous, you say? Where the hell ARE these female wammers anyway? Well, I'm not going to spell out exactly where, because I don't want to "poison the well" with the small but VERY vocal proportion of perverted crackpots that haunt the UMD, seemingly intent on freaking out anything female in a 1,000-mile radius of WAM, but let's just say there are other, more discreet wammy outlets online where female participation is vastly greater than it is here... and the women aren't wam producers either. Of course, as with the UMD, some of these females are very likely males impersonating women, but the majority of them are the genuine article. And no, of course they don't tend to look like the models WAM producers hire. Some don't share their photos, and of those that do, some are cute and some aren't. In short, they tend to look like ACTUAL girls next door, as opposed to what WAM producers call "girls next door."

To get back to the original post:

The female wammers I've chatted online with, if they've visited the UMD male forum, have almost unanimously said that it seems very much targeted to a gay audience and isn't appealing to them. In general, women don't tend to be all that much into erotic material that just shows a single person, even if they're straight and the single person happens to be a very good looking guy. Women tend to be much more focused on the interaction between people than men are. Some female wammers somewhat enjoy looking at the "regular" messy forum and seeing women getting messed up; the main thrill for them here is in imagining themselves in the model's place. But that only gets them so far. In general, woman aren't anywhere near as much into photos or even videos as much as men are; they are much more focused on doing something themselves than in watching something happen to someone else.

The vast majority of people who buy fetish or mainstream porn videos are men. There have been a few studies showing this, you can see one example here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17039402

I view the main forum more often because I am sexually attracted to women. Seeing random men nude is not at all appealing to me. I am not a typical woman but even my straight friends have told me that they really don't like seeing random guys' dicks.

The really interesting difference between male vs. female wammers (besides their sex, of course) is age. With men, you've got a really wide spread -- you can find plenty of male wammers in all ages from their teens up almost through retirement age. Female wammers (at least the ones who show up in online forums and chat rooms) are much more concentrated in their twenties. I think this is the result of the rapidly changing nature of female sexuality in our society over the last few decades. It has become increasingly more and more okay for women to view themselves as sexual beings, and the traditional differences in sexual behavior across the gender gap are eroding much more quickly in recent decades than they had been previously. Keep in mind that I'm talking in broad, general terms here; I'm certainly not saying all women have begun to feel this way. But for obvious reasons, these changes impact the youngest, least conditioned generations the most powerfully. The advent of the internet, which makes sexual material and anonymous discussion of sexual preferences readily available to almost anyone, has been one big catalyst in accelerating this trend.

Within psychology, the idea of fetishes was initially defined by Freud, who cast it as a strictly male phenomenon. In fact, he thought that, as very young children, every young male assumes his mother has a penis, and then when he finally sees his mother naked and realizes she has been "castrated" (i.e. has lost that penis), he becomes traumatized. Freud said that some young males deal with this trauma by developing a fetishistic attachment to some specific object or situation, which he considered simply as a placeholder for the mother's "missing penis."

So, yeah... that's one of the silliest of the many ridiculous things Freud put out there. (He also had some good ideas sprinkled in with his bad ones.)

In any event, many decades after Freud, more mainstream psychology long held out that something like 95% or more of fetishists were male. But in recent decades, a number of psychologists have come to believe that, while fetishes are predominantly male, they are nowhere near as uncommon in females as was previously thought -- it's just that women have tended to suppress fetishistic desires or at least cover them up in ways that made it hard for psychologists (and most others) to see.

But just because women consume far less porn than men doesn't mean they can't harbor similar fetishes or fantasies. Here's are findings from two psychological studies, as summarized by wikpedia in their entry on fetishism:

"In a 2014 study, 26.3% of women and 27.8% of men acknowledged fantasies about 'having sex with a fetish or non-sexual object.' Another study found that 28% of men and 11% of women reported fetishistic arousal (including feet, fabrics, and objects 'like shoes, gloves, or plush toys')."

I look at it occasionally, but not as often as the regular Messy Forum. I'm not actually turned off by the fact that it's oriented towards gay men - I can appreciate female, male, guy on guy, girl on girl, and girl on guy WAM all pretty equally - but really because I typically don't find the quality of mess/productions there to be that great.

I love a Messygirl consistency pie and production quality that's slightly above "amateur", and that's surprisingly not that common in that neck of the woods. In my opinion! What is abundant is a whole lot of watery slime and "bathtub" videos which are simply not that appealing to me.

Once in awhile there is a good production that hits the right notes - for example, I do own and enjoy some of the old school Abs Pecs Pies vids which are very sexy and have fantastic mess.

I'm a straight man who every so often, will wonder over to the male form looking for new ideas for myself, or just seeing what else is out there. I can appreciate all forms of wam.

As someone who is there regularly, I find the above to be true. Also, the discussions about WAM are few and far between and the discourse isn't as interesting as it is on the Messy Forum. I'd like to post more here but I still remember the early days of UMD when homophobia ran rampant.

The number of women who have a WAM "fetish" as defined by becoming sexually aroused by looking at WAM material? It approaches zero.

Sorry.

The women here are promoting material so they can get paid. The "women" you typically meet in chat? Well they're probably balding in their late 40's - real name is "rick."

Believe what you wanna believe. Everybody's had to fight to be free, but you don't have to live like a refugee.

Johnnypie, we're real, just rare. I am a 28 year old woman who is 100% aroused by this fetish and got into it after being exposed to way too much Nickelodeon as a kid, just like many of you did. I, like most of you, thought I was alone in this until I got my own computer in '97 and discovered Phoebe Rodriguez and the UMD.

I became active on this site several years back, and the response to me was absolutely overwhelming. Many people were welcoming, but it got creepy very quickly. The moderator at the time went through my inbox to look at messages from a user I complained was harassing me, and he said he had never seen an inbox get that full in such a short period. I deleted my profile shortly after as it made this whole kink not fun anymore. I was excited initially to find people who "got" me, but the amount of harassment was insane.

I still lurk regularly, but never post. But yeah...just wanted to say that I am very much a real, normal, attractive woman who loves getting pied as much as you all do. I actually prefer this forum as I love to put myself in the shoes of the models in SlapstickStuff etc.

Just had to put this out there to all that say we aren't real.

Also, I am not selling anything.

Thanks for the vote of confirmation, Pie_Princess.

Female wammers -- "They're real and they're spectacular." No two are quite the same as one another -- just like snowflakes! But seriously, merely because most of them aren't on the UMD, some people insist they don't exist. (Some people are even in denial about the real women who ARE here.) It's more or less the same mentality that says, "If it didn't happen on camera, it just didn't happen." It's bullshit. I'm not saying there are nearly as many women interested in wam as men. Hardly. But at least among twentysomethings, the ratio is probably as high as 1:10 --certainly it's far higher than 1:100 or 1:1,000.

For every one brave pie princess who comes onto this forum and stays, there are at least seven or eight more women, maybe ten, who have visited and NOT stayed. Some registered and got an inbox full of lunatics, many more just lurk a bit on the forums and decide this is no place for them. Some of these women find other corners of the interwebs to discuss their special interests, and others just give up on the possibility of civilized online talk about it.

The brave few like Pie_Princess and Kittenish who stay and play on the UMD are true pie-oneers, and I for one salute them (with banana cream pies, if they're up for it!).


I don't think that's true -- see the women who have chimed in here, for example -- but even so, this is an extremely narrow definition of what the WAM fetish is.

Are female wammers in general as fixated on wam pictures and wam videos as male wammers? Nope, although there are exceptions. It seems that the ones who most enjoy the pics and vids are the most likely to stick around here, because pics and vids is very much what the UMD is intently focused on. Among the ones who don't stay, their wam interests TEND to skew in a different direction that loosely corresponds with general female preferences in sexual areas. They often prefer an involved conversation about getting messy, and they especially tend to prefer actually getting messy themselves rather than watching someone else do it. And some of these women have said they would be a lot more interested in WAM videos if the general direction was skewed differently.

Many of the female wammers who are interested in wam videos are particularly keen on those showing couples messing together while getting it on. There's almost none of that here, of course (or anywhere else). If there WERE more of those types of videos, I guarantee you'd see more female participation in this forum.

But ti's never going to happen. For one thing, the costs of two models willing to actually have sex on camera is generally way out of the wam producer's budget. Secondly, most male wam fans are terrified of seeing a naked male anywhere in the frame. It's occasionally feasible for a producer like Jilly, who is her own model and has a boyfriend who's willing to do this kind of thing with her, but that is a rare (and spectacular!) exception to the rule. (Kittenish is one example of a female wammer who seems to really enjoy Jilly's couple videos, based on her comments on Jilly's posts promoting those.)

Posted 3 hours ago... inbox now full

-JD

I was gonna post even before PiePrincess commented, but here goes: My initial assessment that this fetish is 99% male might've been a BIT hasty and outdated. So sorry about that.

In my defense, when I discovered WAM (and discovered I wasn't alone with this kink) in the 90s, that percentage probably was accurate. But as several people have pointed out to me since my comment, things are changing with the newer generation, and women under 30 are getting into WAM in substantial numbers.

Everything else PiePrincess said is also true, and I can't say it better, but it does bring up an unfortunate point: You guys are your own worst enemy. You want to see more active female participation on here? Be more welcoming and less creepy!! It probably won't change overnight, but it couldn't hurt.


That's a really sweet thing to say and I take it as a huge compliment. A few folks over the years have told me my videos were a "gateway" to break the ice with their partner, and I love those stories too. Personally, I've never had a model admit to having any sort of pie or messy fetish, but a handful have enjoyed the shoot more than others, so you never know....

Funny you say that, because that's exactly how I introduced my boyfriend into the fetish. I told him "I'm into getting messy" and when he wanted me to elaborate, I sent him straight to your site. It's funny because he forgot to delete it off of his open tabs after initially viewing it. When he went back through his tabs a few days later, he looked back around SS and told me he was surprised because he randomly got aroused and was "totally down" to get messy with me. He qctually randomly brought up how he knows it's somewhat of a fantasy of mine to be an SS model, and he was open to me doing it "as long long as you don't have to fuck the guy."

Could never do it...damn career in administration...

But still...what I love about your stuff (see what I did there) is that it is PG13 and not blatantly sexual. You use gorgeous models and keep it quite tasteful. Never seems like some sketchy, cheap porn shoot. I think that's why it's such a great gateway for people lacking our kinky quality to be comfortably introduced into it.

Cheers to Pie_Princess for her stellar response and for affirming the presence of lady wammers!!!

I am also a "real" female wammer - WAM is my own personal sexual fetish, not introduced to me by anyone else. I have mentioned to some privately, but I believe I had much of the same experiences as Pie_Princess and many of you other hot-blooded men: "special feelings" from a young age upon seeing WAM on TV, finding out WAM was a fetish via the miracle of the internet, late nights spent downloading clips off Yahoo! groups on a dial-up connection, reading WAM erotica on Shokolada's Mess (I still have a soft spot for WAM stories), discovering Phoebe the cutest pied face on the web, Lenny, lovely Ariel, years later SStuff, the whole nine yards!

Oddly enough, when I was younger I was turned off by male WAM and only wanted to see the woman get it, even though I consider myself to be fairly heterosexual. At some point that changed and I found certain male WAM to be equally if not more sexy than female WAM. These days, I am an equal opportunity arousee, though I mostly purchase female WAM due to wider availability and quality of content. I will say I am turned on by the women in those productions, not just the thought of imagining myself in her position (Rich - your model Angie is an angel!). I would certainly buy more male or co-ed WAM if it was to my liking, but I do find there is a dearth of that content. Pieromaniac, I generally agree with a lot of what you have to say, but disagree that women don't enjoy pics and videos - we certainly do!! And I purchase and consume a whole lot of content here, even if I don't comment on it publicly in the forums.

As to why more women don't post their thoughts here more regularly - I think it's a combination of metrics (even if the number is not 0, there are still far and away more males here than women) and a general lack of topics that invite the female (or non-heterosexual male, as dreamygie fairly points out) perspective. I can't speak for all women, but in my own experience, I don't typically find many topics here that I feel compelled to comment on. I actually appreciate the few posts that have popped up in the past month or so seeking female perspectives - maybe if we were invited to the table more often, you'd be surprised we're here and have something to say?

A final note: I think Pie_Princess' inbox experience is extremely unfortunate and I've also had my fair share of creepers over the years. But I think you all are a little quick to pin lack of female presence solely on the mouth-breathers. Yes, they could probably stand to cool it, but this is a fetish forum, so I'm not aghast to find men lusting (at time stupidly) over women and I would venture to say other women aren't so faint of heart either. I edited to add: I suppose I mean there's a difference between being a non-outright pervert and being welcoming to women, and I don't think the men here should absolve themselves just because they aren't the former. The goal should be to create a more inclusive community

Thanks, Kittenish. I want to clarify that my comments are based on the preferences expressed by quite a few different female wammers I've chatted with over the years (the large majority of them at places other than the UMD). They may not be a representative sample of all female wammers, but they tended on the whole not to be nearly as into the producer pics and videos as you and Pie_Princess are. And even the ones did say they liked the photos said they never really bought any photo sets or pictures, just enjoyed some of the freebies that they found online.

I do at least. Set up a poll because I'm curious now too.

Not related to the original intent of the thread, but I know a few women who are genuinely into getting muddy. Complete fetish for them. I mentioned this place years ago. Both gave it a glance and ran away, saying it was too full of porn.
I imagine this is not an uncommon response. If a woman has been around the internet more than a few months she knows that in a place like this if she so much as says hello she will be harassed, sent dick-pics, likely attract a stalker and end up as a lampshade in some creep's apartment.

Well, that normally IS a prerequisite, but in your case....

Nah, but seriously, that's pretty awesome. Usually the emails I get are from the guy saying "I introduced my GF/wife to WAM through your site," so it's very cool to actually have a WOMAN say, "I introduced my BF to WAM...."

And Kittenish, that was funny you brought up Angie! She actually IS one of my models who pushes that "PG-13" rating to its limit (ahem). But that said, she's having an absolute ball when she shoots with me and I think it comes through in the final product. That's my goal: To have everything I shoot still feel tasteful and fun and not "porn," even if the outfits have (sometimes) gotten smaller over the years. "Sexy" for me is 100% attitude and has nothing to do with how naked the model is!!

Bryce, I hope you're not talking trash about my collection of lampshades, because they are LOVELY.

Beyond the kinds of posts with subject lines like "What do the WAM ladies think?", what topics in and of themselves would be most likely to draw you in to take part in a discussion here? I'd love to encourage participation from more female wammers at the UMD, but I'm not sure what kinds of conversations you'd find compelling. It seems that the generalizations I drew earlier about female wammers (based very largely on a number of them who DON'T hang out on much or at all on the UMD) don't apply all that well to the women who do. So when we invite you to the table, what kinds of things would you enjoy talking about?

And years of mudding makes the material oh-so-supple!

....aaand there go the last few lurkers in the 1%. Yep, going to hell now, for sure. :readit:

True dat. I've had similar reactions. One, however, was actually fine with the porn....and you will never, ever get her contact info from me.