And all this time I thought the best way to promote a video on a video streaming site was by posting some video from the video!!

Shows what I know. Slide show WAM!!

I know, right? Who knew?

However, the pics *are* very hot! This looks like a fabulous vid! :lovestruck:

Norman

Yeah, but I just can't justify $15 for a 12-minute clip when the only thing being released for preview is 10 stills total.

But maybe the "less is more" previews are the way to go now? I'm selling 80 minutes worth of footage for $14 with about 40 preview pics and some GIFs and I can't GIVE that away. So I'm all for taking an opposite approach.

If you like those deliberate, hit and smear/rub type hits Nadia seems to make that her go to hit. Being a fan of those types of hits Im willing to pay a a few more bucks.
Most girl on girl and even guy(producer) on girl hits have that "Im trying to be nice vibe" while still trying to do the job. I just notice that stuff.

I have been on this board from the beginning and never comment, but I gotta say-- Nadia is killing it lately. This is a weird fetish to begin with and it is made stranger by the fact that almost everyone here (at least it seems) has a different preference (nudity vs. non: humiliation vs. girl enjoying herself). But nobody has hit the nail on the head for MY preferences like Nadia in a long time (although Wamerica comes close). Oddly enough, the last producer to make this big an impact is Rich.

Is it expensive. Relatively, yes. But she has top notch models and she KNOWS what this fetish is about (here again, from my point of view)-- the models don't dodge pies, she doesn't waste half her pies on pieing breasts, the humiliation factor is top notch, etc. Christ even the laugh track here is a great idea. Oh yeah, the outfits also work.

I was a doubter. But Nadia's stuff is awesome. Just my .02 cents

Hi All

Just wanted to say that Nadia really out does herself with these videos. I truly applaud her as another producer and fan. I have a friend that helps her with her videos ( he helps me too) and tells me the time and details that go into each video is incredible.. So after taking all that into consideration the prices for the videos are not that unreasonable. I remember paying $50 way back in the late 1990's for a Rob Blaine videotape with 1 pie scene. I would think that $50 then is like $200 today. So $14 for 12 minutes and 10 pies seems reasonable considering the quality.

Lenny

What a superb dress to get wammed in!

Actually, by my count, there are 46 stills in that video, so the pic count is actually comparable to your own, Rich. Also, if you go to Nadia's site's page for the video, there is an animated gif that runs for about 30 seconds that edits together a bunch of brief highlights clips from the video.*

That being said, I'm not trying to defend or promote Nadia's videos, because I don't know them at all. That's mainly because I'm just not someone who EVER drops $15 on a single scene. You can call me a cheapskate and I won't object, but I feel that there are so many amazing pie videos available in the $5 range these days that I can't justify spending $15 on any single one. (It's not that I won't drop $15 at once -- I've dropped a lot more than that when buying in bulk for a discount price. I've also bought some of the Moomin's YCDTOTI packages where you spend $25-$30 but you end up with 4 to 6 scenes of material all edited together.)

I'm certainly not saying no one should spend that kind of money on a video. If some specific producer's work or just a single video really hits a sweet spot for some folks -- and obviously Nadia's do for CKCP, Lenny, and Ace above -- it's obviously worth it to them or they wouldn't spend the money and then feel satisfied enough with the purchase to praise it here. I would guess that a lot of these folks have more disposable income than I do, but that's neither here nor there. It's also possible I spend just as much on pie videos as some of them but just end up with a lot more videos.

You could say my buying strategy is quantity over quality, but from my perspective there's a lot more to it than that. Given that I don't have a great deal of disposable income, I consider myself one of the lucky ones -- many of the videos sold at very affordable prices hit the sweet spot for me. I don't have any need to do expensive (and it would seem, often risky) custom videos. I don't really even need to buy the $15-$20 "specialist" clips, because they don't tend to be all that more appealing to me than the clips that run for $4-$8.


*All that being said, Rich, I strongly prefer your own method of marketing your videos. If a producer is going to do stills, I prefer being able to view them individually rather than as part of a slide show. Also, I really miss the great trailers you used to make. (I know you still make the occasional promo trailer, but I miss the way they used to be a regular thing with each new video. I realize it's no longer worth the time it takes you, but those things were very enjoyable and I do feel they helped push me to buy videos -- not every video with a trailer, of course, but I've often had trouble picking exactly which of your videos I want the most, because so many of them look very good, and the trailers usually helped me distinguish which ones would be most appealing to me.)

CKCP, let me say first off that I love the fact that you currently have Gram Parsons in his Nudie's suit as your avatar.

Secondly, I wanted to ask about your statement that "Nadia is killing it lately" (my italics). Have you bought her videos all along and felt that they've improved in recent times? Or is it just the recent ones that have appealed enough to you to buy?

The reason I ask is that the one time I took the plunge and bought a Nadia video was, predictably enough given my cheapskate tendences, when she came out with Agent 36C at just $5. I didn't enjoy that one nearly as much as I had hoped to, so I just wonder how you felt about it. That video is now more than three and a half years old though. Are the new ones a lot better? Certainly her production standards have risen greatly -- that much is clear from the glimpses we get of the new stuff. But I'm guessing the overall feel is still the same? (In your words, "the models don't dodge pies, she doesn't waste half her pies on pieing breasts, the humiliation factor is top notch").

Yep, it was definitely a producer's market back then.
For comparison: SS01 was sold only on VHS initially, for $35, and sold like gangbusters.
Those same scenes are now available for $2.50 apiece as instant downloads, and sell about once a month.

Right now a 25-minute scene with about 20-25 pies and a couple slimes sells for $6.99, and sells about 1/10th what that $35 videotape sold. Could I price that same scene for $15, or $35, or $50? Sure. But I'd basically price myself completely out of the market.

It's like comparing CD sales in 1995 to 2015. You can price an album for $5 and still won't sell close to what Chumbawumba or Lou Bega sold for $16.99 back when CDs were the only option.

Yeah, but those days are LOOONG gone, for so many reasons. I have to turn every new volume around much quicker... Right now, a new volume sells about 1/2 to 1/3 what it sold in 2013, so I have to put volumes out twice as fast (at minimum) just to keep sales consistent.
I'm also taking the time I might've spent on editing a trailer, and editing a compilation instead. Because the comp can generate income, and the trailer can't.
Dealing with YouTube trolls back around 2010-2011 kinda soured me on the idea of promo clips as well. When a video with 350,000 views that's been up for 5 years can be pulled due to one user creating multiple fake accounts to "report it," why even bother putting up free clips?
And finally, the nature of social media and the lack of privacy has made most of my models far more wary of YouTube and such. I actually have several who now write "No YouTube clips" into their contracts. I can still put teasers in my stores but the audience is severely limited.

I still churn out a trailer once in a while, but honestly? It's so counter-productive I'm starting to think the universe is telling me to stop. The only "true" trailers I've made in 2015 were for Aaliyah and Nichole... And those were my two worst selling volumes of the year. And then the 4-minute retrospective trailer, with clips from the entire HD era... is banned by YouTube because of the song license. So it's only in the store and, again, very few have seen it. (A shame cuz it was/is pretty great.)

So, basically, if making a trailer led to a boost in sales, I'd still be making them. But it really has no effect. These days I'm more likely to just put up excerpts from the actual scenes, which aren't as flashy but DO let you see exactly what you're getting before you buy.

She takes a creamy pie, she takes a chocolate pie, she takes a banana pie, she takes a cherry pie!

It's kind of funny, Rich. You entered this thread being bitchy about Nadia Valentine's marketing technique on her latest video -- i.e. having only 10 stills and no video snippets or animated gifs to promote it. And yet your count was way off -- she used 46 stills in that video, not 10. So she had as many pics as you do for any given scene, and she also does have a composite 30-second animated gif on her site for this video.

We've also heard (on a number of threads over the past month) an awful lot of moaning from you on the topic of the Ginger + Jen videos not selling very well. And yet where are the excerpts from these three scenes for potential customers to see? As you say above, video excerpts "DO let you see exactly what you're getting before you buy." Unless I missed something, I don't think we've seen a single excerpt from any of the three Ginger + Jen scenes.

So... you want video excerpts from Nadia before you're willing to plump for her stuff, but you often don't bother to give your own customers the very same thing you complain about her withholding, and then you groan about the lack of sales. (Also please let it be noted that there are actual promo videos for a fair number of Nadia videos.)

I honestly do think you're probably the single greatest WAM producer working today, and I really love your stuff. But it really seems like you're at cross-purposes as a WAM producer and a WAM consumer.

Absolutely love it. Gorgeous women. Amazing pieing and gunging. The bartender won't be receiving a tip from from that customer. However, I would tip her amazingly for what she did to that lady

Four GIFs in this post, also on the website. Liked by 4 people. (I don't know how many bothered to watch.)
https://umd.net/forums/the-final-jen--ginger-scene

Two more GIFs here, also on the website. Plus 4 bonus pics, in addition to the 50 (!!) already posted for Scene 2 on the website.
https://umd.net/forums/completely-random-awesome-out


I'm sorry if I come off as "moaning." I don't think that's the case at all. But I AM telling people the truth when they ask honest questions, like "how well did that purple slingshot clip sell?" or "why are you producing more male clips now?" or "when are Jen & Ginger coming back?" I took what I thought was a calculated risk (two models who have both sold consistently well since 2009, teamed up together) and it didn't pay off. I'm a big boy. I'll shake it off.

But I'm not gonna be all bland & noncommital when someone asks me when they're coming back. (You know, the whole "hopefully real soon!!" bullshit.) They were ready to shoot again just weeks after this one... And I had to turn them down. It's frustrating and it sucks, but that's how it goes. I'm not running a charity here. If models charge too much relative to how they sell, I have to cut them loose. Nothing personal, just business.


There's a reason you didn't see excerpts from THIS shoot on YouTube. Read between the lines:

Perhaps you can guess two models who wrote this into their most recent contract?....


From the store....
Catalog Number tws-307-0520 Add to Cart
Slapstick Stuff Teaser Volume 148 Producer's Number: SS148S10 Price: $0.00 USD
Highlights from Scene 1... No frills, just clips! [FREE! Just add to your basket before checking out.]
Producer: SlapstickStuff Distributor: SlapstickStuff Year: 2015 Country of Origin: US
Length: 3 minutes Scenes: 1 File Size: 43 Megabytes File Format: MPEG4-MP4
Screen Size: 1280 x 720 Keywords: Ginger Jen pies slime chocolate Cool Whip shaving cream pudding lingerie bikini thong butt throw two girl slingshot hair

OR.... You can simply watch it from the UMD Store, where it's been a free trailer for a month now. 232 people have done that... I'm assuming you're not one of them.


I paid $15 a year ago for the two-girl "Western" themed video... And it consisted of nothing but an unbroken wide angle shot. So yeah... Once bitten, twice shy.
But I have nothing against her personally, and she does seem to be turning out exceptional work lately. (Production value alone!) But as a consumer, I still kinda want to see actual footage, with sound, before making another purchase. And yes, cost is a factor as well. That was solely my original point.


Yes. I'm possibly the WORST producer when it comes to not giving away free content.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmeKL7-axTA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWhsMXuPmws

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnaJ6xLQi4M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B92ZARY7f0

...And all these wound up being "under" sellers, FBOW. The only 2015 volume where I didn't produce ANY free clips was the Breana one... which was one of my best sellers.
I'm not sure that indicates any real trend, but I've been doing this for... 11 years? I've probably released upwards of 250 free clips between YouTube, my website, and my various stores. (There are about 20 videos on YT right now from other users that consist of nothing but compilations of my FREE clips, complete with the copyright notices!) I'm not saying this to brag... But I think I've earned the right to not need to throw out 1-5 free clips for EVERY single volume before people can purchase a $6 clip with confidence.....


And there's the rub. You alone are the one UMD member consistently busting my balls on here... And when you dump three paragraphs of criticism on my head, followed by a closing sentence telling me how great I am, understand that I'm gonna treat that praise as disingenuous.
Look, I don't need you to fawn over my work. Hell, if there's something you don't like, feel free to tell me specifically. (Maybe in private, but if you need to, public is fine. I'm a big boy.) We all have different niches within niches, but I can do my best to accommodate. (Male WAM... Hair shots... Bare feet... I've been trying lately...)
But I'm not sure why you feel the need to go after me or argue with me SO much... in post after post, from whether I'm "moaning" too much, or whether I'm being over (or under) critical of some Brazilian show, or even what I post on a totally different forum!! It's been going on for a LOOONG time, and honestly I'm tired of it.

Sorry to everyone else for turning this into a personal squabble. Wasn't my intention.

You mean 1/2 to 1/3 the number of sales? Or 1/2 to 1/3 the price?
I assume the former. Sorry about that. I hope that's not a general loss of interest in wam.

Rich, I can only speak to myself and my own personal specific tastes, but I think Nadia's pies are far superior to the ones you use in terms of the kind of coverage they generally get. That's for me and I'm sure if you ask 10 people you'll get 10 different answers, but it is how I feel about it.

You might want to make a separate thread about this and ask for honest feedback, none of the usual, "You are great Rich!! Fantastic! Just do nudity!" lines coming from people who don't buy your clips.

You know, just ask what people want or have them critique your work.

If you want mine, I think you do just about everything right. I'm particularly partial to the more playful slapstick style videos, which don't even necessarily have to include dental-floss style swimsuits (which I've heard sell well, so that goes against what I like already). If you had pies like Nadias though, I'd buy everything you put out. As it stands, it's actually been awhile since I've done that.

I did not buy the early ones because Nadia was featured more -- no problem with that but not my bag. I bought some of the more recent ones and they are really good. A little too much prep time with the pies, but I like the teasing. Nadia has a good eye for "humiliation"-- Not like the mean humiliation but the comic kind I like. So lately, in this case, means I like the recent direction she is going in.

Knowing some of the music you have used in your short clips (e.g., The Minutemen), I think we probably have similar music taste. Graham Parsons is, of course, one of my absolute faves.

She makes all the whipped cream herself and puts it in those big icing bags, right? I confess, I've tried a LOT of different recipes in the last year, and most of them haven't produced better results than I'm currently getting with good ol' Cool Whip and pudding. (I'm talking merengue made with egg whites... Icing made with shortening and sugar... Heavy whipped cream... And so on.)

I'm still open to trying a new recipe if you have one. But that really heavy whipped cream look has been hard for me to pull off consistently.

I just wish you could admit you were wrong sometimes, but I guess that's too much to ask of you.

You said there were only 10 pictures in Nadia's new video, and there are 46. Yes, you had 54 pics for one scene, so yes, 54 is more than 46, but you have to admit that they're in the same general ballpark.

And right, she only had one gif to your six, but hers was a comprehensive gif that gave you a fairly good sense of the whole video. All of your gifs feature the girls well after they're (delightfully) messed up, nothing of them clean or getting their first pies/slime.


Nobody was asking you about your sales in this thread, and yet there you went, moaning about them. If you don't think that bottom quote above constitutes moaning, then fair enough, but I think a lot of people would disagree.


Okay, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you had posted a free trailer. (I knew you put one in your store, but when you have to buy something to get a free trailer, it's not exactly free.) That's my bad. At least I can admit I made a mistake, which is more than I can say for you, Rich. Nadia's video had 46 stills in it, and she posted a pretty elaborate animated gif on her site, all of which, as far as we can tell from this thread, you are still in denial about.


It kind of seems to me like you DO have something personal against Nadia. You were one of the people who mercilessly attacked her when she was actively participating on the forum (not that her behavior was the most exemplary, admittedly) and you've made snide comments about a number of her other videos since she stopped participating here. Just because you praise her for high production values doesn't negate the shitty attitude you've displayed toward a lot of her wares. I understand you may honestly be in denial about this issue, but it sure seems to me like you hold a grudge against her to some extent.



SSSSSSIIIIIIGGGGGGHHHHHHHH. Stop being such a hysterical drama queen. I've really only argued with you in three posts total, and two of them were ones where you came in and got bitchy on other people's topics/products: One was my post on a Marie Osmond pieing, which you stomped in and pissed all over. Another was this one promoting a Nadia video, which you falsely accused of offering only 10 stills and no animated gifs. The third was a Chega Mais thread where I took a joke you made too literally. See, again, I can admit making mistakes. I only wish you were big enough to do the same.

Also, I never complained about what you said on other forums. I never even read those remarks, and have no idea what other forum you're talking about.


And are you also sorry for turning it into a huge ad for your videos? I know you were defending yourself against my allegations, but I was only pointing out that you don't post videos excerpts for all your videos, which is inarguably true. I believe Nadia has posted video excerpts for at least as many videos from her store (on a percentage basis) as you have in the last year.

Jeeeeezis ..... Rich, now I understand why you weren't in the mood when I was giving you shit last night!

Thanks for the feedback on the Nadia videos, CKCP. And by the way, it's not a problem at all, but I just want to clarify: You seemed to be responding to me in that thread as though I were Rich, and I am very much not Rich. In fact, that guy is fed up to the gills with me at this point (see above).

I'm not a producer and I've never made any clips at all. Rich is the one who used a Minutemen song in one of his promo videos ("Corona," a great song but sadly far better known to most people as "hey, it's that song from Jackass!") But yeah, the Minutemen rock!

Rich, what the hell makes you think this is about some unhappiness with your work? Can't you accept the fact that you are loved for what you do professionaly and simultaneously despised for who you are as a person? That's a joke, but I am a big boy too, and I can separate the two things. I have absolutely no problems with your work; I think it is fantastic. What I have a problem with is the shitty, snarky attitude you often seem to have when commenting on other people's posts. You could say I'm responding to you in a shitty, snarky way, and I guess I wouldn't deny it, but it's like the Old Testament says: A shit for a shit and a snark for a snark.


As I mentioned above, this is all pretty exaggerated in your mind. The very first post where we argued was the one I started on Marie Osmond back in mid August. The post within that thread where our argument began is labelled as 28 days old as I type this. Since then, there have been two more arguments that I mentioned in the thread above (one of which happened today in this very thread).

I think part of what is confusing you here is that I've had arguments with two other people in recent months (Neil Edwards, criticism_unwarranted) where you've stepped in and sort of tried to moderate things a bit. I certainly never asked you or wanted you to do this, but I didn't attack you for it either. You tended to take the other party's side in both cases, and that's your right, but you know... what misguided impulse made you feel you should step in and try to make things right in those cases? Maybe I suffer from this same misguided impulse when I see you stepping into threads like this one, or the Marie Osmond thread, and being a grumpy, mean-spirited jackass. (Cue the Minutemen's "Corona.")

Also, if you'll look back at all your own threads over the past month, you'll see I've participated very civilly in a number of those, praising the new work you're coming out with and not being critical of you at all. I've even offered (what I thought was) useful feedback when you solicited it on several topics, such as what people want to see in compilation videos and the like. I also asked questions about the sales of new vs. returning models that led to an extended conversation. In short, we've had plenty of civilized back-and-forths over this time period during which you say I've been doing nothing but consistently busting your balls.

I hate to see the Rich-Pieromaniac thing devolve. Bums me out.

I feel like both of you are irritated about things and maybe they have to do with each other and maybe they don't.

I can feel Rich's frustration with the Nadia pies stuff, as he does comment on them almost every time re: pricing, but it's his prerogative to do so. I actually don't think Nadia's are overpriced, per se, but i've also not bought one, either, and i've both a number of Rich's videos/clips over the years, and will continue to buy more. (I tend to mix it up: a little Rich, a little Messygirl, a bit of House of Mess, etc.)

Rich, while you don't take customs and i 100 percent understand that, somewhere in here (i think this thread) you mentioned a kind of Kickstarter-y thing where maybe fans of yours pay and just help consistently pay for your clips.

Frankly, i'd kind of be into that. I tend to sporadically buy/sample your wares based on quality of hits, cuteness/gorgeousness of girl, and occasionally the amount of skin she's showing.

But as a few have said, i feel like your "worst" video is pretty damn solid; if i had all the money in the world, i'd buy all of your stuff, month to month.

Outside of brunettes and the more liquid-ish/marshmallow pies, i can't say there's much i would "want to see more of" and don't think you're anything wrong -- you've had some great ladies lately, including that latina, and the two-girl thing...it's just "how much a month do i wanna spend on WAM" that holds me back; i LOVE the "no, i insist" thing as i imagine to to be, the body language alone is cute/sexy, up the alley of what i like. (I dig seeing one girl pied while the other is not; that first one of the girl's face covered, looking up while the other is clean -- hot! awesome!) The only thing i might say is, one sandy haired blonde might be slightly more attractive to me or someone else more than another, and so that video sells better or worse, etc; OR, they kind of look similar, and without a latina or a black girl or an asian girl or a midget or a siamese twin to vary it up, it's like --- almost too much/too consistent of a good thing, if that makes sense? but as to why one set/girl might be better than another, i feel like by and large we're talking small margin of difference/error. There is an element of your stuff that would do well with a fan club/pay site, though i feel like the era of "membership joining" is kind of out -- but i really would strongly consider paying x-amount to help fund a chunk of shoots, and for that we get x-amount of clips and raw footage as you'd said in the post i referenced, depending on who puts in what, a la the varying rewards of a Kickstarter model.

I wince sometimes when i see your frustration about sales, but that's mainly because I feel bad for you -- i like your stuff, always have, you've always seemed like a solid dude/amiable guy, and the quality never falters. You put some care and cleverness into what you do, and it shows. If i had any balls and ingenuity, i would do what you've done, but i didn't and i simply remain a fan of what you do and when i sense you're getting really down about sales, i think to myself "maybe he'll hit a wall one day and retire" and that'd be a pretty sad moment.

I don't know pieromaniac or his motives or whether he's a fan or not, so i can't and won't comment except to say i kind of feel like he is a fan of yours at heart, but obviously there's a sensitivity/history between you guys and i will not step in the middle.

I'll only reiterate -- if sales are so wildly up and down/getting you down, personally, of late and taking some of the fun and excitement in planning and execution out of what you do, i would strongly consider some kind of "crowdfunding" solution. Might be a logistical pain to set up, but I'd be really curious to see the results, as they may just surprise you. I feel like your consistency for those of us with some but not a TON of disposable income sometimes makes it hard to choose "just one or two clips", but funding a "slate of projects" as they say in H'wood might put a new light on things.

A fan from day one,

JY

Joe Young,

Thanks for your thoughtful comments on this. You are more sympathetic to Rich's troubles than I am, it seems, but I am indeed a big fan of Rich's work and I would love it if he could somehow get his sales back up and regain the better spirits we remember him having in his salad days. I really have no problems with Rich's video work whatsoever; he's done some of his very best stuff in 2015, which is doubly damn impressive after a solid 11-year-run. It's his bitchy behavior on the forum that gets under my skin; and now that I'm letting my own bitchy opinions about Rich's bitchiness be known, he's fed up with having it pointed it out in three different posts within the last month. He thinks there's been a lot more of it than that, but he's confused.

OK PM, I'll take you at your word. If you're genuinely trying to make points and not just troll me, I accept that. But I've seen many posts of yours where you praise Neil's past work on one hand and then call him "a human shit stain" in the next paragraph, so there IS precedent... But I'm not saying you did that with me. I suppose you can like the work and disagree with the person.

I'm gonna be sarcastic and snarky from time to time. This is a rarity with producers, who tend to keep all their posts 100% positive. Frankly, I just like to engage in topics more, and most times I'm thinking as a WAM fan and not a businessman. Noise used to do this a LOT. (And got in arguments a lot too, which should've been a lesson, I guess....)

I'm sorry I said Nadia's video had 10 stills when it was 46. And if you say she's done a lot of promo videos, then I was wrong on that too. Personally, I've been inherently distrustful of Nadia ever since her time on the forum (when she WAS banned for some deceitful stuff) so I'm sure that plays into me being overly critical of her work. There's certainly a level of mystery in not giving away TOO much about your scenes and that's obviously working for her. But as a consumer knowing her past history, I'm probably more suspicious than I need to be. Maybe I'll break down and get one of the new clips and you'll see me singing her praises in a few weeks!

I'm glad you think 2015 was one of my strongest years. I would agree too. I'm sure my frustration seeping out comes from feeling like you're doing good work and it's not translating to the bottom line. Between bringing in new models and bringing back faces that customers requested, I've spent more $$ on talent in 2015 than any other year to date... But coupled with the downturn, that rate of shooting isn't sustainable, so I'm making hard choices now about who to shoot and who to pass on. (Which again, sucks, because in a perfect world I would be able to pie ALL the hotties who want to get pied!)

JY, Kickstarter might be an option, although this community has traditionally frowned on those methods. I have taken cash influxes from a few good customers, which has been wonderful and is basically "Kickstarting" in its purest form! These weren't solicited by me which makes it even better. And yeah, a membership site would work well, but that's not feasible in 2015. (I think Vidown did away with them a few years back.)

I will say... 2015 has been pretty tough for producers across the board. So I shouldn't be moaning like I'm alone in this. Privately, a LOT of folks have told me similar horror stories, so I know my case isn't unique. I guess I'm alone in talking about it publicly though, and while I got nice feedback from some for my "peeks behind the curtain," it definitely rubs others (like PM) the wrong way. So I'll try to be less forthcoming in the future.

Anyway. I spend full-time hours on SS now so I'm gonna do my best to keep making a good product, but also find new & creative ways to get that product out. Even with the day-to-day crap of any job, the actual creative stuff (the shoots & the prep & the editing) is never NOT fantastic. That's always gonna be a labor of love and it's good to remember that.

Again, sorry to clog up the board with this, and I'll try not to comment further.

Rich,

I'm sorry I got so worked up over this. I do think I raised some good points, but I also went overboard with them, as I have done a couple times with you lately. I've had some hard times in my so-called real life lately, and I imagine some of those frustrations are helping to fuel my overzealousness here; props to Joe Young for his insight on this.

It's not like you shouldn't be entitled to your own opinions on any subject that comes up here, including other producers' work. The constant undercurrent of negativity toward Nadia's work in particular obviously really got under my skin, but it was a gradual thing that built up. What you said above wasn't all that objectionable in and of itself, it was just a straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back-type situation. And admittedly, my back is too easily broken lately, so I will try to take a couple steps back and not jump down your throat any more over these kinds of things.

For whatever little it's worth, I don't think you should keep the economic downturn story to yourself. In general, I haven't been bothered by you talking about it, except when it is entwined with the sort of sour-grapes-flavored criticism of other producers' work or marketing methods, as above. Honestly, I'm glad you have talked about it. As you point out, you're the only producer who has even mentioned it publicly (as far as I'm aware), so if you hadn't done so, I'd be oblivious to it. I've tried to step up my purchases a bit in the last few months as a result; I'm certainly not nearly wealthy enough to make any noticeable difference in the overall market, but I figure every little bit helps. (It's the same kind of philosophy you have to have about voting, especially if you live in a state where the election outcome is a virtually foregone conclusion.)

It is a cruel world indeed when there are hotties lined up, wanting to get pied and slimed (even if their ultimate motive is the cash) and you have to turn them away because the market won't support it.

You can also genuinely like the work and truly dislike the person, which is my case with Neil.

My comment about Neil that you quote sounds incredibly harsh out of context. Hell, it might even sound harsh *in* context. But just so people who didn't see the thread in which it appeared have some idea of what provoked me to use such horrible language: It has recently come out publicly that back in July, when he was being accused by me and seven other UMD members of various wrongdoings (ripoffs mainly involving undelivered DVDs and customs), Neil forced one of his most vocal opponents here (a UMD member of 17 years) into silence by threatening to reveal the guy's personal information -- his full name, even a photo -- online.

That action, I firmly believe, is the absolute LOWEST instance we've ever heard of any WAM producer sinking (and there's some very stiff competition in this field; insert Anglefan joke here). I mean, Jesus, what kind of shit does Neil have to cover up that he needs to resort to these kind of tactics?

I knew about this when it happened back in July, but I couldn't say anything about it, because Protostar8 (the guy Neil threatened) only told me about this privately on the condition that I wouldn't say anything about it publicly (understandably, he was looking NOT to provoke Neil at that point, given the sociopathic threat he'd received). More recently, Protostar has been assured of Messmaster's protection should Neil ever try to reveal his personal information, so he can now speak publicly about this incident. If you doubt me, you can check out Protostar's own testimony about three-fourths of the way down this thread:

https://umd.net/forums/amatuer-pies

Assuming Protostar is not embellishing the story or outright lying (I don't know either way). If Protostar is knowingly fibbing, then shame on him but if he's telling the truth...

Good for MM for standing up for Protostar. MM said that if Neil ever did anything like reveal his personal information he'd be gone, but if you ask me, the threat alone (again, assuming it's legitimate) should warrant his excommunication from the community, or this forum at least.

Fuck anyone who would even think about something like that, only a complete scumbag piece of lowlife putrid shit would even consider revealing personal information for any fucking reason. Any cretin who would even threaten that kind of action is a psychopath and I've already said "piece of shit" but in this case it warrants repetition, a fucking piece of fucking shit.

If this is true about Neil, and again I do not know all the facts and am only looking at the side presented by Protostar and there are always two sides, but if this is true, then he should be shitcanned, his name should be mentioned with the same derision as other fuckheads like Chris and good fucking riddance.

To this drama fest,

Rich is a good guy.

He speaks his mind but he's never screwed anyone over, he's been a part of the community for almost 20 years and him speaking negatively over Chega Mais or whatever hardly make him a bad person. I'm noticing a trend where there are more and more people actively complaining about anyone being anything but 100% positive all the time. Get over it. Some people like to vent. It's not a big deal but if it bothers you, just ignore it or do something else.