My impression is that the contract is to help guide MM in the event that there are any disputes so he can try to mediate the dispute and so he can decide if the producer / model should be removed from the list.

I'm doing a thing there I'm publicly posting my customs. Example: https://umd.net/groups/my-next-messygirl-custom

This promotes the scene somewhat, builds hype, and will also build confidence that the producer is following my script, so everyone can see. I did it first with messygirl who I trust, so that I can set a precedent with others to do the same thing.

Has anyone bringing up a escrow service would be better even bothered to read the threads where this was discussed, or looked into what goes into it?

The way I see it MM is trying to protect the UMD while also trying to protect producers and customers. This is just a site among the others where people discuss and plan, purchase customs. If you don't like the rules, don't discuss your customs through the UIMD. It is not like MM makes any money off the customs as he does not broker the deals. But when shit goes sideways, people can sometimes forget that the UMD had nothing to do with the custom. Sometimes they go to MM and he has to try to make things right because he is a nice guy. Sometimes they blast on the forums, which would be my preference as a solution. Sometimes MM has to step in because of the labels.

By allowing a producer to be on the "approved" customs list, there is a level of trust that exists. That MM is saying hey, these guys have been doing customs and have had good experiences for customers and we are going to "recommend" them. Because we all trust MM we trust people he says is ok. There is a level of responsibility with that from the producer to live up to that label. Because there have been some dealings that happen in any DIY business, some ground rules were laid out. There is nothing unreasonable about what MM is asking for.

If you are afraid of your name getting out there and being associated with a fetish and the possible harm it could do, your issue is not with the community or MM it is with religious organizations. I had put society, but for the most part the younger generation feels what 2 consenting adults do in their spare time is nobodies business. It is the religious groups that have said sex is evil and sex is taboo. It is religious groups that have put the idea in the head of society that it is bad for people outside of wedlock to have sex. That it is bad for politicians celebrities etc to hire a professional. Yet the mountain of shit that falls on someone who is not in that special group is far worse. Many people have left this site because of that mountain of shit. Be it vindictive ex's trying to make life as difficult as possible, nosy neighbors who are coveting or holier than thou pricks telling their kids what another child's parent(s) do and to mock them for it. Which takes us down the road of why is it ok for a guy to whore around but not a woman? I digress, shitty situations have happened that have lead to this being done. If you don't like the way things are going, blame the people that caused the need for this.

At the risk of sound really crazy let me suggest this: Everyone just do the right thing. Honor deals and respect business rules. End of story.

The Internet, and indeed the world, is a very different place now to what it was in 1999. And back then of course everyone knew Rob would always deliver, absolutely no question. I merrily mailed cheques from the UK to Texas based on nothing more than a casual email conversation, I suspect most of us did.

But real names are very much in use. We only accept payments by bank transfer or cheque, and in both cases, the sender's real name will be on the instrument. I suppose someone could pay with postal orders, if those are still a thing, and I don't think you get a name that way, but not seen one of those in about 40 years.


That's great for you, but not everyone is that organised. What seems to happen in the majority of cases is producer and customer message each other and eventually an inexperienced and excited customer sends money to the producer, using a non-adult service, and puts something idiotic like "payment for the agreed pussy-licking bondage custom video" in the text description field, which then lights up every T&C breach monitor the payment provider has, and both parties get their accounts terminated. Obviously "payment for invoice JPI00176" is a lot less likely to raise suspicion but common sense isn't anything like as common as we might wish, especially when people are excited / turned on.


Didn't you say before you only paid on completion, not in advance? Which is fair enough for models / producers willing to take on trust that you won't rip them off. And you're obviously not putting stuff that flags their T&C monitors in the text boxes. Also of course once you've done business with someone previously you've far more reason to trust them than a first-time transaction. I've had repeat customers pay in full in advance when we only asked for 50% because they knew we'd deliver based on previous experience.


Again, great for you, but not everyone has the facilities of knowledge to do that kind of thing. I suspect there might also be GDPR issues for someone taking that approach on this side of the pond, though at the same time small claims court action is a lot easier here, just two juristictions and 80% of the population live in the larger one. Bear in mind, according to stats MM provided a few years back, the global WAM market is 35% North America, 35% UK, 30% rest of the world combined.

"Pussy-licking bondage" is exactly the personalized message I put on all my bank checks
so that my bank and anyone with whom I do business & pay by check knows that that's what I'm into.

I could write a book on this so I'll attempt to keep it short. My name has been protected since I got on the net in 1996. My fetish, frankly, is no one's business. It's not my friend's business or my family's business. There are real-world implications for my real name getting out, one of them being the public company I work for finding a way to fire me.

The models? That doesn't have to be discussed. Out of all of their fans, a very small percentage are unstable men. They fantasize about them and do anything they can to learn more about them. They might have 5,000 fans and all it takes for it to turn dangerous is 2 deranged ones...trying to find their address, etc...

I work with new fetish models just coming into the industry who are like "I'll just use my real name, no big deal." My reply is "sounds great. How fun will that be when you drive home and there's some 45 year-old bald fat man in a pick-up truck outside your house with binoculars." Then they're like "ok, let's go with Paris!"

That's only for models/producers who have not established a reputation with me. Although I produce videos for my platforms, I also order customs from some of the same models I shoot with. These are models who would need to be in coma before they didn't deliver a video on the scheduled date.

johnnypie said:
Again your problem is not with the community but your employer. Who is influenced by religious organizations.

There are stalking and harassment laws in most areas. Plus the contract is with you and the customer not the model and the customer. If I was ordering a custom I would not give two fucks what the models real name is like I don't now. They have a stage name just like actors do. Not ever actor goes by their given name just like every model does not or should not go by their given name and that is fine. In my mind, producers should operate behind an LLC anyways. Sure there are ways to find out who owns the business etc. It was not that long ago that websites listed the real name of the owner in the ARIN database instead of the registering company.

I feel bad that you have so much to fear from your employer and that they don't mind their own fucking business. I can tell you that unless my name ends up on the news my employer does not give a damn what I do in my spare time.

Not divulging my real name has something to do with my job, not all of it. I bring you back to my feeling that my fetishes are none of anyone else's business.

For payment, the easiest way to get around everything mentioned would be to transfer stable coin crypto from one person's wallet to another, like US Dollar Coin, or something else that doesn't fluctuate much. Fairly anonymous and instant. Plus most wallets and apps let you convert USDC to USD fast and with minimal fees. Just a thought.

We're not trying to root cause the problems with society, and yes I will agree on many points you have raised. But we're trying to solve the scam problems here, and the assumption that you need legally enforceable contracts to combat scams is clearly a shaky one at best.

This unhealthy obsession with outing people (yes, you are outing people when using real names) has me concerned. The whole point about fetish community is NOT OUTING people... like seriously, what's going on here? If you want to use your real name, that's perfectly fine, nobody is stopping you. Many of us don't. I don't understand why people need to push their "out in the open" ideology onto the other members here. As I said, if you want to be open... go right ahead, but do not involve the entire community in the process.

This discussion is specifically about ordering expensive custom scenes, which by definition are direct person-to-person transactions, and even more specifically ones negotiated here on the UMD with some expectation that MM will attempt to assist if the deal goes sideways. In that very narrow situation MM's saying he wants to see a meaningful contract between the parties before he'll look at the situation.

No-one is suggesting that anyone needs a real name to sign up or post to the forums or send messages. Of course every time anyone buys anything they need to provide name details to the billing company but I believe only the biller and banks ever see that data, all the UMD knows is that user (some_random_username) is authorised to access download No 303080 for the next 5 days. Of course if you pay via PayPal you can avoid giving card details at point of payment, but PP itself does know your ID details, cards, banks, etc.

The reason courts and legal recourse was mentoned was because that was suggtested as a possible resolution in one of the original threads that ultimately led to this one. If someone did want to go that route they'd need IDs that the court would accept. Agree it's certainly not the only recourse, nor necessaily a good idea.

Bear in mind though the majority of WAM buyers will never order a custom scene. Given the huge range and breadth of content already available, someone would need to have some very specific and exact tastes before they'd find there's no existing content catering to their needs. Most people will simply find a few producers who shoot the kind of content they like, and buy existing scenes from their stores, simple, quick, and instant delivery.

In more general terms, the world has changed massively in just the last 25 years. Back in the 90s the Internet really was the Wild West, anyone could do almost anything with no repercussions, very little was archived, and most law enforcement didn't even know what the Internet was much less how to access and monitor it. Nowadays? The NSA and GCHQ monitor and record every single byte anyone anywhere transmits (and doubtless other agencies do too), so the spooks already know all of our real identities, sexual proclivities, political leanings, places we've been, every financial transaction we've ever made, who we get on with and who we've fallen out with, the works. The only way to evade that surveilance would be to not be on the Internet at all and not have a mobile phone - but that in turn would raise suspicion, why would anyone from anywhere that isn't actually in dire poverty not have a mobile nowadays?

I think we should take the prospect of court action off the table. In general, you can only sue in the state in which the defendant lives. So let's say it's a $500 case. It's going to cost you more to travel to that state than you'll recover. Then you have to be bold enough to stand before a judge and discuss WAM. That case is also now public record for anyone to access. If you win, you get a judgement, then have to collect, which can be a complete nightmare and again, just in the time involved, costing you more than $500.

So let's please move past that. There's a level of risk involved in paying for any custom and the more diligent you are, and the more research you do on the producer/model before paying them, the less risk you run.

Realize that paying by methods such as Paypal friends and family, Venmo, Cashapp and Google Pay are peer-to-peer methods and do not enjoy buyer protection. It means that filing for a reversal is next to impossible.

So before you pay anyone, that's the way you should think "ok...this money is gone and I'm not going to get it back. Am I paying the right person? Have I done all of my homework?

You're thinking US-centric, things are very different here in the UK, which remember is equal in market share to North America for WAM. Also the undisputed largest customs producer in the world, and the one about whom you never hear a single complaint because they always deliver, MostWAM Customs, is UK-based. The legal systems in Scotland and England are separate but both have small claims courts and judgements in one are enforceable in the other as far as I know. And 80%+ of the population lives in England and Wales (one juristiction) anyway.


Agree with all of that.

Which also ties into my comment below, people need to leave reviews and inform MM if they have a bad experience. Keeping quiet about it helps no-one, raising issues means that other prospective buyers can be better informed about the risks and relaiability of any given producer, and that those who are dilligent and reliable will then see the reward in more business.


We already have that in the Custom Producers List, and it's a lot faster responding than per-year. The problem is lots of people not leaving reviews and/or not informing MM when things have gone wrong, so he's unaware that producers on the list are failing to deliver. Basically if someone has a bad experience, they need to report it, else no-one else will be aware.

The issue at hand is the client determining when exactly they've been burned. As I stated, most of the times a client doesn't get their custom is not do to a blatant scammer. It's when someone with the intent of doing the project has something happen and everything goes sideways. It could be a life event or an issue with a model.

Then, the model/producer strings the client along for weeks or even months. It becomes hard to pin down a defined date where they say "I've been burned."

I can define it. The custom was scheduled to be delivered on the 15th. That comes and goes and they don't reach out to the client. Now it's the 17 and there's an excuse and maybe a new delivery date of the 22nd. The 22nd comes and goes with another excuse and without a refund.

You've been burned on the 22nd.

I have not said anything about outing people. That is not what I am talking about at all. However, if you want to run arbitration when people get bent over and fucked by producers, I am sure MM would welcome the help. Here is the thing, this is his site. He has been the one dealing with the scam shit and trying to keep things civil on his site because he tries very hard to keep this a good place. He is the one dealing with the producers and customers as the customer service division for the UMD customs scene even though they are not paid for through this site. MM has observed that a LOT of people do not have legally binding contracts and work on the honor system hoping people do what is right and they obviously haven't and so here is where we are. I am not saying every model has to have their real identities blasted all over the place. I have brought up that producers should function under an LLC or other means so that customers can be protected as well as producers.

You also must have missed the ID requirement thread that MM made a while ago.

ID requirements are fine for platforms and site administrators. I never recommend any model give their real name out to a custom client. Some of these guys are nutbags. When models are asked for their real name, the typical answer is "no thank you."

We had a nosy citizen match my partner's photo on the UMD with her Facebook photo and he went to her employer threatening to expose 'the kind of people they hire' and they fired her. Nothing religious here, just an asshole sticking his nose where it didn't belong. I do agree that in most cases, it would be members of religions, but not always.

I've been reading about contracts, and how they might be difficult to enforce. So, because they aren't perfect, and because most people don't want to reveal their own actual name, here's an idea.

The contract could identify the producer by their operating name, such as MessyGirl, MostWam, etc. The person ordering the custom could be identified by their UMD name, so for example, a contract might say "Bobographer* hereby agrees to . . . " and the * next to the name would have an explanation at the bottom of the contract page. "*Not a legal name, but known on the UMD by this name."

If the buyer were to defraud the producer, it would then be easy for MM or the producer to publicly expose them here. That might be enough incentive to play fair. As for someone creating a new profile and ordering a custom, there could be a requirement that the person interacts in the forum a certain amount of times before being allowed to proceed. Just an idea.

Yes, I believe it would be. A contract is really just to keep people honest about what they agreed to, not to scare them with the law. Hell, just agreeing to something over inbox and having a neutral observer is good enough about 99.5% of the time. That's why the first thing I ask is for both parties to start an inbox conversation when something goes wrong. Asking for a contract is an attempt to get a step ahead of even that.


The requirement that customs producers own a store means that I also have photo ID's and Custodian of Records info on file for them. This is not fair game for leverage in any situation and I will not use it for anything other than if the law comes at me, but that said it is one way I get to check for legitimacy. Obviously, identity isn't the point of contention here, communication is.

MM

When you start mandating real names, that's outing, be it direct or indirect. Also several threads above yours, there's multiple comments on how the internet "has changed" and "it's more open now". Perhaps I misread/misunderstood?

I sympathize with MM plight, but I wonder if people are taking their expectations too far. At times, I have dealt with shady producers. Sometimes I do message MM to check to see if others have had similar experiences, but I don't think I have blamed MM for bad transactions. It's completely unreasonable to blame MM for your bad custom experience. This is a community, and he is the administrator. He's not responsible for every bad thing that goes on this site. It's definitely nice that he's taking a more proactive stance, but we should see that as an extra benefit, not an entitlement.

I didn't miss the ID requirements, I don't post my content here, so I don't have to submit my ID.

I actually feel MM's taking on way to much in this situation. I can imagine he has a very busy day and life and it now trying his best to somehow manage third party custom deals.

Everyone has their own way of doing things. Here's mine. Just have a statement telling members how to best goin about choosing a custom producer or model and leave it at that. Research is up to the customer.

However, when a producer/model is hit with a complaint (not a "I didn't like the video") complaint, but a "I got burned" complaint it actually take a very small amount of time to get to the truth. Have the customer send proof of payment and communications. Reach out to the producer/model for their side.

If it comes to be that the producer or model did indeed burn the customer, lifetime ban from this forum. Issue solved. Because I see clear examples which don't need to be discussed of producer/models ripping people off yet are still allowed to promote themselves.

So basically you don't care about producers and models being required to have their real names kept for business purposes, you just care about your real name not going to a producer. Got it.

Maybe it'd just be easier to live without custom videos? They seem to stress the people who produce them, and I don't know any models who don't dislike working on them.

Actually the models I work with love doing customs. And most of the time it's a very easy transaction, especially when the customer has ordered several customs in the past. It's great money and a few of the models I work do 5 to 10 customs a week = fantastic money.

What we're discussing here is the rare times they go south.

I will again state that for pretty much the same money, you're often better off just hiring a fetish model or session girl and getting a live show. A few of the models I work with prefer sessions over doing customs.

From a customer perspective, yes. I don't see the need to risk one's identity to buy WAM videos or customs.

From a producer perspective IMO it's up to them. As a customer, it doesn't matter if I know the producer's or model's real identity. Actually, my expectation is not to know, because I thought everyone in this industry went by stage names. But from this post, is seems like that's not the case?

I have dealt with shady models that have given me copies of their ID, had a seemingly legit paypal business invoice, LLC that sort of stuff. But I decided not to do business because of insufficient track record and I could tell something was off. Guess what? Several months later, the complaints on UMD started coming in. The ID was probably fake too... lol

I'm not only a bit nervous with this thread taking a "real name" slant but I've shown it to a few models I work with who really just want to remind everyone that under no circumstances are they giving a custom client their real name. Platforms? That's different - OnlyFans, Clips4Sale, etc...

So I really just want to make sure you all understand that ordering a custom from a model and asking her for her real name is a 100% total no-go.

Since you won't have to go to MM to deal with a customs issue this whole thing should not be a problem for you.

Slightly unrelated... if I wanted to order a custom, would i just contact the producer or how? I wasn't sure of the etiquette on how to do that.