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"Discussion about Mostwam"
Love you, too
piemeariver said:
"Beyond reasonable doubt" is the legal standard for *criminal* cases where the stakes are incredibly high - life imprisonment or death, for example.
For civil cases, the most common standard is "more likely guilty than not."
Seeing as how the UMD does not have the power to imprison anyone (thank god) I think our standard of evidence can be on the low end of things. Just my opinion.
"Beyond reasonable doubt" is the legal standard for *criminal* cases where the stakes are incredibly high - life imprisonment or death, for example.
For civil cases, the most common standard is "more likely guilty than not."
Seeing as how the UMD does not have the power to imprison anyone (thank god) I think our standard of evidence can be on the low end of things. Just my opinion.
Well I don't. I don't expect the platform (UMD) to police its producers, and they should not get involved. Platforms overreaching playing judge, jury and executioner IS the problem with our society today, and you want to bring that here?!
Do you expect Amazon to tell you when a merchant is a convicted felon? eBay?
Keep this platform apolitical and amoral. Every person should be free to support whoever they want to, and not be coerced into mob action.
I have thought long and hard as to whether to comment. I like to keep myself to myself on here. However as someone who has spent a considerable amount of money over the years on MostWam customs and scenes I felt like I should say something.
While I think the fact we found out about this several months after it going to court is not great, the fact is that the judge did not preclude Leon from continuing his work at MostWam. As such it becomes a UMD issue, he is not breaking any terms of his suspended sentence by continuing to work. If he was viewed to be a sex offender likely to repeat this would not be the case, though I completely acknowledge that someone committing even one offence is one offence too many.
I feel conflicted. I don't want to ignore a sex offender because I happen to like his work. We are all on an adult fetish site yet we feel we can judge Leon. The safety of models has to be paramount, but having heard from AL it seems that the right protocols are in place to prevent any such situation from even being possible in the future.
Leon is the best defendant in this thread as he knows what happened and how he feels. Others who seek to defend him enthusiastically can just come across as just wanting his work to continue regardless of what has happened. We need to take each situation in isolation, and not just back a producer because we happen to like his output.
It may be that Leon needs to take a 3 6 month break from the site while Lisa / AL run the business. That would give him the space he needs to address his mental health while also taking him out of the UMD space. On balance it's my feeling that MostWam should not have to leave the UMD, but equally that's not my decision.
Just as with MM I continue to listen to constructive points of view.
While I think the fact we found out about this several months after it going to court is not great, the fact is that the judge did not preclude Leon from continuing his work at MostWam. As such it becomes a UMD issue, he is not breaking any terms of his suspended sentence by continuing to work. If he was viewed to be a sex offender likely to repeat this would not be the case, though I completely acknowledge that someone committing even one offence is one offence too many.
I feel conflicted. I don't want to ignore a sex offender because I happen to like his work. We are all on an adult fetish site yet we feel we can judge Leon. The safety of models has to be paramount, but having heard from AL it seems that the right protocols are in place to prevent any such situation from even being possible in the future.
Leon is the best defendant in this thread as he knows what happened and how he feels. Others who seek to defend him enthusiastically can just come across as just wanting his work to continue regardless of what has happened. We need to take each situation in isolation, and not just back a producer because we happen to like his output.
It may be that Leon needs to take a 3 6 month break from the site while Lisa / AL run the business. That would give him the space he needs to address his mental health while also taking him out of the UMD space. On balance it's my feeling that MostWam should not have to leave the UMD, but equally that's not my decision.
Just as with MM I continue to listen to constructive points of view.
lchris001 said:
Platforms overreaching playing judge, jury and executioner IS the problem with our society today, and you want to bring that here?!
Do you expect Amazon to tell you when a merchant is a convicted felon?
Platforms overreaching playing judge, jury and executioner IS the problem with our society today, and you want to bring that here?!
Do you expect Amazon to tell you when a merchant is a convicted felon?
Terrible analogy and also Amazon is probably not the best choice to illustrate non-involvement with sellers.
Totally off topic and not relevant to the actual discussion here but .... Amazon will suspend seller accounts for:
-Inauthentic or counterfeit products.
- Poor product quality.
-Failure to fulfill orders (on time, or ever).
-Failure to provide shipment tracking.
-Platform manipulation, such as compensating buyers for reviews.
-Money laundering, fraud and other crimes.
-Buyers do not have a positive experience.
-Sellers break Amazon's rules--of which there are many.
-Sellers violate state, U.S. or international law.
They often don't inform sellers of why they were suspended, it just happens.
I can see you desperately want this situation to fit your 'outrage' about everything that you've convinced yourself is going on in the world, but it really doesn't.
MMasia said:
Terrible analogy and also Amazon is probably not the best choice to illustrate non-involvement with sellers.
lchris001 said:
Platforms overreaching playing judge, jury and executioner IS the problem with our society today, and you want to bring that here?!
Do you expect Amazon to tell you when a merchant is a convicted felon?
Platforms overreaching playing judge, jury and executioner IS the problem with our society today, and you want to bring that here?!
Do you expect Amazon to tell you when a merchant is a convicted felon?
Terrible analogy and also Amazon is probably not the best choice to illustrate non-involvement with sellers.
You're right. In hindsight, Amazon and big tech platforms was a poor analogy, as they often ban people with no reason/justification. That was my stupid mistake.
Even though I have gripes about the current legal system, it's still better than extralegal "mob justice", which is where the discussion is trending towards to. My hope is that the true sex offenders will be put in prison and removed from society. No question in that case that they won't be running their business anymore!
I should clarify and say I don't want a platform with extralegal powers.
lchris001 said:
I should clarify and say I don't want a platform with extralegal powers.
I should clarify and say I don't want a platform with extralegal powers.
But surely platforms can decide for themselves if they want to allow sellers who sexually assault their models or not.
Or do you want to be policing what private platforms can and can't do? Seems a bit extralegal to me.
MMasia said:
But surely platforms can decide for themselves if they want to allow sellers who sexually assault their models or not.
Or do you want to be policing what private platforms can and can't do? Seems a bit extralegal to me.
lchris001 said:
I should clarify and say I don't want a platform with extralegal powers.
I should clarify and say I don't want a platform with extralegal powers.
But surely platforms can decide for themselves if they want to allow sellers who sexually assault their models or not.
Or do you want to be policing what private platforms can and can't do? Seems a bit extralegal to me.
Platforms can certainly do that, and you don't even need to bring in legal standards, because it's their platform and producers can be booted for even more frivolous reasons. However, the consequences of that is risk losing customers over this. At the end of the day, business is business, and should not be mixed with politics and ideology.
You should ask yourself, are you going to pander to the tiny 1% vocal minority, who aren't bringing in money for the business, and whose goals are just stirring up shit because their quasi-religious doctrine dictates they must do so? Or try to maximize coverage to serve everyone and stay neutral? If there's anything we can learn from corporate America, pandering to extremist is beginning to show why it's bad for the long term: Disney, Netflix and hopefully many more companies who did so will suffer the consequences of their actions.
As for your 2nd question, those are good questions, and our current legal system is not setup to resolve this. I am hoping we will figure this out in the next few years before it is too late.
PennyBanks said: As someone who is a survivor of multiple sexual assaults, reading some of the things the users of UMD have said here has been a shitty experience and makes me feel unwelcome on this site and unsafe continuing to shoot or do sessions.
[Edit: I am also stepping down as a mod and messaged MM to request that I am removed as a moderator.]
Whilst I'm not going to say my opinion of guilt because there is very little unbiased information available, I am seeing misinformed claims from people who aren't models, women, survivors or experts in abuse, as far as I know that I want to challenge.
It seems clear from this thread that even at the stage of someone pleading guilty and getting convicted of assaulting one of us, a substantial number of the users here wouldn't believe us anyway.
Please think about the message you are sending to other models and women here and make a genuine effort to understand why so many of the takes here will make anyone who has been sexually assaulted less likely to return or feel safe sharing any of their experiences.
If you are not a model, you can't know what it's like at a studio, you see the results of a shoot and not the many hours before and after. People experience producers/photographers being creeps at shoots and you'll never realise from the footage you purchase especially if an incident happens after the shoot. We are professionals! I have shot videos on a shitty day, after bad news, after unpleasant experiences, when I'm unwell: nobody has ever picked up on me acting any differently, because either I don't, or I edit it out. Your perception of a day or a working relationship based on a scene you have purchased is not reality.
Yes, models do continue to work with producers who have been accused or convicted of a sexual offence, especially if the producer doesn't tell their models. It is entirely possible that models wouldnt be aware of convictions of sexual offences until the person in question is given advice that they should notify the people they employ.
Once they are aware, they often carry on working there....because this is their job! They may be friends with their colleagues outside as well, but they are there because they are being paid to be - it is work regardless of how easy and fun we make it look.
People who get assaulted at work rarely find that their colleagues quit their jobs or stop working with someone in protest, no matter the industry. When the convicted person is not a colleague on their level, but is their employer, there is a clear power dynamic which also impacts the rate of reporting and the behaviour of the other employees. Models who work at a single studio, don't produce their own content or travel to other studios, and whose income comes from one company are not in the same position as someone who has more power to pick and choose who they work with.
[As an aside, the power dynamic tends to be even more skewed when the employer is 46 years old and the other person is half that age. Young people are easier to exploit at work (why do you think the retail & hospitality sectors love employing teenagers so much? It's not only because they get to pay them less) and often easier to manipulate into not reporting unethical or illegal behaviour from the people who decide if and when they can work.]
Reporting sexual assault is hard. It is harder when you are a sex worker. It is sometimes harder and more traumatic than the incident itself, and I have only managed to find the strength to do it twice in my life despite experiencing many, many more things than this, and neither made it to court. For a case involving a sexual offence to even make it to court, it must already meet a high standard of proof, because councils do not want to waste money pursuing a conviction if it is likely to fail. It is very common for reduced or lighter sentences to be offered for a guilty plea to minimise court costs and emotional distress for the victim (who has already been through an assault and reporting it) by avoiding a long trial.
The risk of publicity is something that would have arguably impacted the model more, who would have been outed as someone who is a fetish model, with her real full name included, putting her safety at risk.
We don't report things that might be scandalous because we don't want our personal information in public so it can be used as another weapon by the people who stalk and harass us already.
The misogyny and vitriol directed at women who do sex work who dare to want to be treated with respect and humanity by tabloids and incels alike is well documented already. She probably would have been dragged through the mud by the media who would have acted like she deserved it for doing fetish work and posted whatever bikini pictures they could find to get more clicks and profit as much as they can from someone else's trauma.
Yes, it is a shame that when people plead guilty and are convicted of sexually assaulting their employee, this often impacts the company's reputation as well as the creations and livelihood of other people in that conpany. That is something that the person who is convicted of a sexual offence is responsible for, and serves as a reminder that when people who plead guilty to and are convicted of a sexual offence, this often has a far reaching and detrimental effect on other people who have done absolutely nothing wrong, and that's just something that person is going to have to live with. If you have an issue with it, don't commit sexual offences, and don't plead guilty to sexual offences that you haven't committed.
However, someone who has plead guilty to a sexual offence against a young women that they employ should not be encouraged to continue employing young women for the sake of being able to carry on watching your favourite porn.
This is genuinely one of the most deranged things I have ever seen someone suggest on umd. I severely question the judgement of those suggesting this and derailing discussion by saying which models should work for their company next?!
There's seperating the art from the artist and there's actively suggesting that someone who has plead guilty to a sexual offence should crack on and get straight back to work. If you're placing your own consumption of a product over the potential safety and well-being of another human being you need to get off the internet and go learn some empathy. For fuck's sake, do better.
I think it is completely inappropriate to, after a case has gone to court and the accused pleads guilty to a sexual offence, subsequently run a second trial over a site the company uses to sell content and is thus populated by the company's customers.
Especially not one in which the person who plead guilty to a sexual offence can spend as long as they like making an argument for their innocence. We have not seen what was said in court. The other person's experience isn't represented in this discussion and there is nobody here advocating for them or sharing their side, but this is obviously an unreasonable and cruel thing to expect someone who has been found in a court of law to have been a victim of a sexual offence.
I was the victim of a sexual offence by my manager when I was 21 years old. Barely any of my colleagues knew but out of the ones that did they continued to work there because they needed a job. The company didn't support me so I quit my job because I could not bear to spend a single day more having to obey the instructions of someone who had done something despicable to me. It meant I spent several months unemployed on top of what I had been through. I did not report it to the police at the time because I was afraid that it would lead to retaliation against my friends who still works there.
When I finally found the strength to report it several years later, I was told by police that it wasn't worth pursuing an investigation and they wouldn't even bother to interview him. My experience is incredibly common, and the reason you don't hear us talk about things like this is because every day we get reminded that even if the court says it happened, the same people who tell us how much they love our work and support us will suddenly say "there's two sides to every story, let me play devil's advocate, I think we should all forgive and forget, we all make mistakes!"
I have already had to take a step back due to recently diagnosed health issues, and having already seen many things over the years that have made me question the ability of this community to take issues like informed consent seriously, I am now considering how much I will be involved in WAM going forward.
I have thought long and hard about this and cannot imagine anything productive or healing for anyone involved in this to come from this thread remaining open. This is not helpful for the model, for Leon, or for the community and nobody here, myself included, is paid enough or equipped enough to lead this discussion in a way that will not cause further harm to the community, anyone involved, or the work of survivors to educate people on what abuse is and how it happens.
If you are a model, performer, or sex worker of any kind (if you're making fetish content you come under the sex worker umbrella) then JOIN THE UNION. Unions are able to guide and support you in your workplace if your working conditions are unfair, unsafe, or abusive. https://www.uvwunion.org.uk/en/sectors/united-sex-workers/
Anyone who has had their boundaries or consent violated by a producer/photographer - my inbox is open. I'm happy to just be a listening ear, help you talk through your options or suggest services that might be able to help with whatever next steps you would find most helpful.
Anyway, I've put too much emotional energy into this already so I'm not going to contribute to this thread any further as an act of radical self care for myself.
Take care. Join your union.
[Edit: I am also stepping down as a mod and messaged MM to request that I am removed as a moderator.]
Whilst I'm not going to say my opinion of guilt because there is very little unbiased information available, I am seeing misinformed claims from people who aren't models, women, survivors or experts in abuse, as far as I know that I want to challenge.
It seems clear from this thread that even at the stage of someone pleading guilty and getting convicted of assaulting one of us, a substantial number of the users here wouldn't believe us anyway.
Please think about the message you are sending to other models and women here and make a genuine effort to understand why so many of the takes here will make anyone who has been sexually assaulted less likely to return or feel safe sharing any of their experiences.
If you are not a model, you can't know what it's like at a studio, you see the results of a shoot and not the many hours before and after. People experience producers/photographers being creeps at shoots and you'll never realise from the footage you purchase especially if an incident happens after the shoot. We are professionals! I have shot videos on a shitty day, after bad news, after unpleasant experiences, when I'm unwell: nobody has ever picked up on me acting any differently, because either I don't, or I edit it out. Your perception of a day or a working relationship based on a scene you have purchased is not reality.
Yes, models do continue to work with producers who have been accused or convicted of a sexual offence, especially if the producer doesn't tell their models. It is entirely possible that models wouldnt be aware of convictions of sexual offences until the person in question is given advice that they should notify the people they employ.
Once they are aware, they often carry on working there....because this is their job! They may be friends with their colleagues outside as well, but they are there because they are being paid to be - it is work regardless of how easy and fun we make it look.
People who get assaulted at work rarely find that their colleagues quit their jobs or stop working with someone in protest, no matter the industry. When the convicted person is not a colleague on their level, but is their employer, there is a clear power dynamic which also impacts the rate of reporting and the behaviour of the other employees. Models who work at a single studio, don't produce their own content or travel to other studios, and whose income comes from one company are not in the same position as someone who has more power to pick and choose who they work with.
[As an aside, the power dynamic tends to be even more skewed when the employer is 46 years old and the other person is half that age. Young people are easier to exploit at work (why do you think the retail & hospitality sectors love employing teenagers so much? It's not only because they get to pay them less) and often easier to manipulate into not reporting unethical or illegal behaviour from the people who decide if and when they can work.]
Reporting sexual assault is hard. It is harder when you are a sex worker. It is sometimes harder and more traumatic than the incident itself, and I have only managed to find the strength to do it twice in my life despite experiencing many, many more things than this, and neither made it to court. For a case involving a sexual offence to even make it to court, it must already meet a high standard of proof, because councils do not want to waste money pursuing a conviction if it is likely to fail. It is very common for reduced or lighter sentences to be offered for a guilty plea to minimise court costs and emotional distress for the victim (who has already been through an assault and reporting it) by avoiding a long trial.
The risk of publicity is something that would have arguably impacted the model more, who would have been outed as someone who is a fetish model, with her real full name included, putting her safety at risk.
We don't report things that might be scandalous because we don't want our personal information in public so it can be used as another weapon by the people who stalk and harass us already.
The misogyny and vitriol directed at women who do sex work who dare to want to be treated with respect and humanity by tabloids and incels alike is well documented already. She probably would have been dragged through the mud by the media who would have acted like she deserved it for doing fetish work and posted whatever bikini pictures they could find to get more clicks and profit as much as they can from someone else's trauma.
Yes, it is a shame that when people plead guilty and are convicted of sexually assaulting their employee, this often impacts the company's reputation as well as the creations and livelihood of other people in that conpany. That is something that the person who is convicted of a sexual offence is responsible for, and serves as a reminder that when people who plead guilty to and are convicted of a sexual offence, this often has a far reaching and detrimental effect on other people who have done absolutely nothing wrong, and that's just something that person is going to have to live with. If you have an issue with it, don't commit sexual offences, and don't plead guilty to sexual offences that you haven't committed.
However, someone who has plead guilty to a sexual offence against a young women that they employ should not be encouraged to continue employing young women for the sake of being able to carry on watching your favourite porn.
This is genuinely one of the most deranged things I have ever seen someone suggest on umd. I severely question the judgement of those suggesting this and derailing discussion by saying which models should work for their company next?!
There's seperating the art from the artist and there's actively suggesting that someone who has plead guilty to a sexual offence should crack on and get straight back to work. If you're placing your own consumption of a product over the potential safety and well-being of another human being you need to get off the internet and go learn some empathy. For fuck's sake, do better.
I think it is completely inappropriate to, after a case has gone to court and the accused pleads guilty to a sexual offence, subsequently run a second trial over a site the company uses to sell content and is thus populated by the company's customers.
Especially not one in which the person who plead guilty to a sexual offence can spend as long as they like making an argument for their innocence. We have not seen what was said in court. The other person's experience isn't represented in this discussion and there is nobody here advocating for them or sharing their side, but this is obviously an unreasonable and cruel thing to expect someone who has been found in a court of law to have been a victim of a sexual offence.
I was the victim of a sexual offence by my manager when I was 21 years old. Barely any of my colleagues knew but out of the ones that did they continued to work there because they needed a job. The company didn't support me so I quit my job because I could not bear to spend a single day more having to obey the instructions of someone who had done something despicable to me. It meant I spent several months unemployed on top of what I had been through. I did not report it to the police at the time because I was afraid that it would lead to retaliation against my friends who still works there.
When I finally found the strength to report it several years later, I was told by police that it wasn't worth pursuing an investigation and they wouldn't even bother to interview him. My experience is incredibly common, and the reason you don't hear us talk about things like this is because every day we get reminded that even if the court says it happened, the same people who tell us how much they love our work and support us will suddenly say "there's two sides to every story, let me play devil's advocate, I think we should all forgive and forget, we all make mistakes!"
I have already had to take a step back due to recently diagnosed health issues, and having already seen many things over the years that have made me question the ability of this community to take issues like informed consent seriously, I am now considering how much I will be involved in WAM going forward.
I have thought long and hard about this and cannot imagine anything productive or healing for anyone involved in this to come from this thread remaining open. This is not helpful for the model, for Leon, or for the community and nobody here, myself included, is paid enough or equipped enough to lead this discussion in a way that will not cause further harm to the community, anyone involved, or the work of survivors to educate people on what abuse is and how it happens.
If you are a model, performer, or sex worker of any kind (if you're making fetish content you come under the sex worker umbrella) then JOIN THE UNION. Unions are able to guide and support you in your workplace if your working conditions are unfair, unsafe, or abusive. https://www.uvwunion.org.uk/en/sectors/united-sex-workers/
Anyone who has had their boundaries or consent violated by a producer/photographer - my inbox is open. I'm happy to just be a listening ear, help you talk through your options or suggest services that might be able to help with whatever next steps you would find most helpful.
Anyway, I've put too much emotional energy into this already so I'm not going to contribute to this thread any further as an act of radical self care for myself.
Take care. Join your union.
Not sure if this helps but if it does
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dwTQ_U3p5Wc
Paint with play and surrender
Penny Banks said everything that needs to be said, and Kelsey Rose was very diplomatic, compassionate and kind in her first post and suggestion of the proper way for this to be handled. Unfortunately this thread has exploded with some misogynistic bullshit. The men on here that are running to defend his actions are not only disappointing, but it does make me feel unsafe to know that the victim is unsupported. I'm going to support the woman who had the courage to speak up against him, and put herself at risk to ensure that other women don't get put at risk too. That was a truly noble and selfless deed, she didn't get compensation for that. Having to go to court is terrifying and I can't imagine having to go through that process.
As adult industry performers, it is important for us to hold our communities to a very high standard for safety. This is a completely unregulated industry and that makes the people who work in it extremely vulnerable to abuse. Not just allegations, but legitimate CONVICTIONS of assault should and MUST be taken seriously and those people should not be allowed to have the opportunity to do it again. It is dehumanizing to the victim to disregard what she went through, like her sense of safety doesn't matter.
Adult performers are sex workers and we must obey the most sacred and holy of rules, the rule of consent. THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS IMPLIED CONSENT. If you're hiring a model or performer for scenes, then that is the only thing you are doing with them. If you want to fuck them, then you need to pursue dating them and communicate that is what you want from them. The power dynamic of employer to employee ratio puts the employee in the most vulnerable and awkward position when they need to get paid. To take advantage of that power and assume that there are no boundaries is not safe for the performers who thought they were hired only to perform on camera, not off camera.
I don't know if anyone at Mostwam knew about this so I'm not sure if they should all be punished for Leon's actions, but the best thing they can do at this point is to create an entirely new store and rename it and start over again without Leon. As an adult community, we must not allow people convicted of sexual assault to be supported and continue to work. As a producer, model, performer, and woman who represents this community, I think Leon should step down from Mostwam and if he doesn't then I think his store should be removed from the UMD.
As adult industry performers, it is important for us to hold our communities to a very high standard for safety. This is a completely unregulated industry and that makes the people who work in it extremely vulnerable to abuse. Not just allegations, but legitimate CONVICTIONS of assault should and MUST be taken seriously and those people should not be allowed to have the opportunity to do it again. It is dehumanizing to the victim to disregard what she went through, like her sense of safety doesn't matter.
Adult performers are sex workers and we must obey the most sacred and holy of rules, the rule of consent. THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS IMPLIED CONSENT. If you're hiring a model or performer for scenes, then that is the only thing you are doing with them. If you want to fuck them, then you need to pursue dating them and communicate that is what you want from them. The power dynamic of employer to employee ratio puts the employee in the most vulnerable and awkward position when they need to get paid. To take advantage of that power and assume that there are no boundaries is not safe for the performers who thought they were hired only to perform on camera, not off camera.
I don't know if anyone at Mostwam knew about this so I'm not sure if they should all be punished for Leon's actions, but the best thing they can do at this point is to create an entirely new store and rename it and start over again without Leon. As an adult community, we must not allow people convicted of sexual assault to be supported and continue to work. As a producer, model, performer, and woman who represents this community, I think Leon should step down from Mostwam and if he doesn't then I think his store should be removed from the UMD.
Well, what a desperate situation. All this toxicity and the cause? A bloke who can't keep his hands to himself with a hired model, who has himself some excuses and a lot of money to lose.
Fucking dreadful. It looks like it's driven Penny Banks away I'm sure there's other women who're equally appalled by some of you.
Rancid.
Fucking dreadful. It looks like it's driven Penny Banks away I'm sure there's other women who're equally appalled by some of you.
Rancid.
All is love 👌🏻
All I'm going to say is that a lot of these takes are just NOT it. I appreciate Penny's post on the matter, and honestly anyone coming to this thread should just be directed to that comment.
For what it's worth, I think Penny and CreamMe are right - their comments cut straight to the heart of the matter.
leonmoomin said:
August 2020 is when the incident happened, One week after Lisa and I separated.
I was not interviewed until the December of that year.
This was a major disadvantage, as I couldn't be as sure about the exact specifics of the day as i would have been when my accuser was interviewed a week after the events of that day.
CalGungeFan said: The Article came out in March 2022... So nearly 8 months ago.
By the sounds of what Leon was saying that the incident happened probably in 2021 (S.E line may give us a slight idea when it was)
By the sounds of what Leon was saying that the incident happened probably in 2021 (S.E line may give us a slight idea when it was)
August 2020 is when the incident happened, One week after Lisa and I separated.
I was not interviewed until the December of that year.
This was a major disadvantage, as I couldn't be as sure about the exact specifics of the day as i would have been when my accuser was interviewed a week after the events of that day.
Are you kidding me?!
The victim must always be believed?!
I fucking wish. I speak for myself but I Know many girls and women here who have been assaulted. Christ if we were believed then getting convictions would be easy.
Fact- it is not. I reported an assault where a photographer took photos of the whole thing. It took nearly 2 years to get into the courtroom and after I'd been dragged through the mud for what I do, and my own personal choices, I still didn't get a clean sweep of guilty. He went to prison for 2 years and is now a registered sex offender for life.
Every modelling site he waa prominent on removed him immediately.
Two other instances I reported sexual assault and rape never got close to the courtroom. Because we aren't believed. Look at the stats.
Don't give me this whole 'me too' thing. Do not blame women deserving to be heard on your choice to commit assault. In your profession you should be PROTECTING those you work with. Young women who can be vulnerable.
I assume you are now on the sex offenders register? If so, you shouldn't be on this site and I ask admin and mods to remove you.
I don't care if you say you're innocent. Whatever you did, it took a lot for that VICTIM to report it. If you were innocent you'd have fought for your name to be cleared. You don't plead guilty for an easy life and you know it.
You say your choices were if you go to court you'd be splashed all over the media? Don't flatter yourself. You're not that important. The media doesn't care that some guy in Bristol who does WAM. They don't care, and you know what, if you were innocent that shouldn't have deterred you.
I'm not judging your innocence because you just say you are innocent. You know what you did.
I have a voice and I intend to use it. Many women here are so appalled by thos they quite frankly can't reply. And I've said my bit so I'm not coming back to it.
But I do not support someone who is guilty of sexual assault, and I am ashamed with those of you who do.
And this site for continuing to do so.
CreamMeAgain said:
I don't know if anyone at Mostwam knew about this so I'm not sure if they should all be punished for Leon's actions, but the best thing they can do at this point is to create an entirely new store and rename it and start over again without Leon. As an adult community, we must not allow people convicted of sexual assault to be supported and continue to work. As a producer, model, performer, and woman who represents this community, I think Leon should step down from Mostwam and if he doesn't then I think his store should be removed from the UMD.
I don't know if anyone at Mostwam knew about this so I'm not sure if they should all be punished for Leon's actions, but the best thing they can do at this point is to create an entirely new store and rename it and start over again without Leon. As an adult community, we must not allow people convicted of sexual assault to be supported and continue to work. As a producer, model, performer, and woman who represents this community, I think Leon should step down from Mostwam and if he doesn't then I think his store should be removed from the UMD.
I don't post much, at all, but I agree with this.
I have purchashed and followed MostWam for a long time, and it's clear they all enjoy it and have been good friends for some time! I find discussion of the 'legal systems' irrelevant - whether you agree with such systems or not, that shouldn't be the discussion point here. It's been through the system - there is now a convicted sex offender present on this site, and in this forum thread even. That is a fact.
MostWam I don't think would suddenly go under, there are other sites/networks/stores of the same budget, or perhaps better, who either do not or incredibly rarely post here.
But it doesn't look good for this site, for visitors who usually feel this is a safe place to come, or perhaps most importantly, current/up and coming models. They may suddenly think that this sort of thing is OK by UMD standards - and it's not.
Or is it? Action or no action will determine peoples opinions going forward, let's not forget that.
Chair, Button, Gunk Dunk...but who's the dunkee?
From an outside perspective this looks awful.
From time to time I've spoken to SWs about messy stuff and often their only exposure is from horror stories told through the grapevine of timewasters and bad actors. I've sent casting calls to models I liked and then worried that I can't vouch for them and something could happen. Thankfully I get ignored, but it should take more than someone leaking 2 years after an event, and 6 months after a conviction for this to come out. Incidentally, you can't imply something is a smear campaign when the you did what you are accused of.
Penny is 1000% right and her statement pretty much should have been the last word on this. Its not her job to police, uphold standards, and be an ambassador. She has already done more than almost everyone else here. If a model curious about WAM searches it up on the black and orange site, they will find Penny's page and probably get a favorable view on that. Now she will also read about how toxic some of this 'community' is and probably steer clear.
The laisse faire strategy is not working with this thread and so UMD need to do what they should have done Friday: Cut ties Leon. Show some leadership and do what is in the long term best interest of the community.
I also think there should now be some form of formal Whistleblowing to try and stop this situation from repeating. No one was prepared to say publicly what had happened, but if the correct anonymous channels existed maybe this could have been nipped in the bud. Should that report go to MM? That's probably the easiest system but is pretty obviously tied up in a lot of conflicts of interests. I don't know but there needs to be a solution. I know Penny resigned the moderation but I'm guessing that's an unpaid situation. She has the talent to fix a lot of things so hire her on as a community standards consultant and watch this place blossom as a safe space. Or not but at least do something. Silence is not an option
From time to time I've spoken to SWs about messy stuff and often their only exposure is from horror stories told through the grapevine of timewasters and bad actors. I've sent casting calls to models I liked and then worried that I can't vouch for them and something could happen. Thankfully I get ignored, but it should take more than someone leaking 2 years after an event, and 6 months after a conviction for this to come out. Incidentally, you can't imply something is a smear campaign when the you did what you are accused of.
Penny is 1000% right and her statement pretty much should have been the last word on this. Its not her job to police, uphold standards, and be an ambassador. She has already done more than almost everyone else here. If a model curious about WAM searches it up on the black and orange site, they will find Penny's page and probably get a favorable view on that. Now she will also read about how toxic some of this 'community' is and probably steer clear.
The laisse faire strategy is not working with this thread and so UMD need to do what they should have done Friday: Cut ties Leon. Show some leadership and do what is in the long term best interest of the community.
I also think there should now be some form of formal Whistleblowing to try and stop this situation from repeating. No one was prepared to say publicly what had happened, but if the correct anonymous channels existed maybe this could have been nipped in the bud. Should that report go to MM? That's probably the easiest system but is pretty obviously tied up in a lot of conflicts of interests. I don't know but there needs to be a solution. I know Penny resigned the moderation but I'm guessing that's an unpaid situation. She has the talent to fix a lot of things so hire her on as a community standards consultant and watch this place blossom as a safe space. Or not but at least do something. Silence is not an option
If a criminal conviction isn't enough for UMD to take action, then what is?
There has been silence in the public side, but I am 100% there have been a lot of conversations going on in the back end. A lot of people have made reference to the Jessie situation. With everything that went on with that situation from store stat manipulation to shared accounts etc. it was some time before things were done. But during that time as was stated in the post there were conversations on the back end that the public were not privy to. One thing I know is that MM has always made a post about a decision. In that post the reasons behind the decision were always spelled out with as much information as MM deemed appropriate to the situation. In the Jessie situation there was a lot revealed about what went on behind the scenes that we were not privy to. From the time the final incident started to the time Jessie was banned was about a week if I remember right. During that time when everything was going on in public MM was attempting to work things out with Jessie. For the people talking about who used what account, it took MM a while to prove things and he did. MM has said he is watching this and having those discussions as was done previously. I think a update from MM would be a good idea at this point.
leonmoomin said:
I know which girl initially brought this here, it is funny that the same girl who did so, also wanted to continue to work for us up until a couple of weeks ago, when I made it clear she couldn't, due to her threatening to out me publicly, we have messages from this person saying exactly that, and all of this has arrived here now, a week or so later, but that girl was not treated with anything but kindness from me up until she threatened me with exposure.
Excuse my language but I don't think you get the fucking point. Blaming the person who made this public? This should have been addressed when it happened. Complaining because you got outed and acting like a complete victim this whole conversation. Blaming this person or that person. Take some responsibility here like you did when pleading guilty. I agree with everyone that has pointed out you clearly said you were innocent and then changed your story to it being a misunderstanding.
I know which girl initially brought this here, it is funny that the same girl who did so, also wanted to continue to work for us up until a couple of weeks ago, when I made it clear she couldn't, due to her threatening to out me publicly, we have messages from this person saying exactly that, and all of this has arrived here now, a week or so later, but that girl was not treated with anything but kindness from me up until she threatened me with exposure.
Excuse my language but I don't think you get the fucking point. Blaming the person who made this public? This should have been addressed when it happened. Complaining because you got outed and acting like a complete victim this whole conversation. Blaming this person or that person. Take some responsibility here like you did when pleading guilty. I agree with everyone that has pointed out you clearly said you were innocent and then changed your story to it being a misunderstanding.
I feel like a lot of people in this thread truly do not appreciate how vulnerable it can be to be a performer in this sort of content. Not only do you have the physical vulnerability of whatever it is you're doing on set, but the entire way that the industry is set up relies on word of mouth, good names, and reputations. If you're a model who's a troublemaker in any way, "too difficult" to work with, you're going to lose income. Also, not to mention, the amount of well fucking documented research that going to the police as a sex worker is a roulette at best on how you're going to be treated or believed (and I'm one of the people who's actually *authored a study* on this). For this even to have been reported suggests something serious has happened.
I'm not here to be the arbiter of truth on what happened in this particular instance. I am, however, someone who knows what being a fetish performer - and moreover, being sexually assaulted as a fetish performer (in a non-WAM setting) by a producer is like. (For full disclosure, I have no complains about any of the WAM producers I have worked with). The only responses in this thread that account for these dynamics are those of other performers.
Men on this site complain that women aren't active on here, that they're not willing to engage with their kink, but when multiple members of this site step up to defend a person convicted of sexual assault, how the fuck is that going to make women feel safe or happy to engage here?
I hope anyone with a conscience would agree that we have a duty to keep our community safe. I hope this can be the driving factor in the decisions that are taken by those with more power than I have here.
(Also, to echo what Penny said, join the union!)
I'm not here to be the arbiter of truth on what happened in this particular instance. I am, however, someone who knows what being a fetish performer - and moreover, being sexually assaulted as a fetish performer (in a non-WAM setting) by a producer is like. (For full disclosure, I have no complains about any of the WAM producers I have worked with). The only responses in this thread that account for these dynamics are those of other performers.
Men on this site complain that women aren't active on here, that they're not willing to engage with their kink, but when multiple members of this site step up to defend a person convicted of sexual assault, how the fuck is that going to make women feel safe or happy to engage here?
I hope anyone with a conscience would agree that we have a duty to keep our community safe. I hope this can be the driving factor in the decisions that are taken by those with more power than I have here.
(Also, to echo what Penny said, join the union!)
MostWam AL said:
We have continued to shoot with measures in place to make sure nothing like this happens again. Since this happened, all the girls have been made aware of the situation and they have made their own decision to continue to work for us. None of our girls are that desperate for money that they would work somewhere they feel uncomfortable.
The girls enjoy working for us because it's fun and non-serious job. Everyone who works for us is comfortable working for us. I'm personally close with most of the girls and they know they can speak to me if they have an issue. If they didn't feel able to speak to me, they are able to speak with Lisa or HR.
I've known about this situation since it happened, I know the girl, I know what was claimed on one side and the other and I made my own opinions on it based on me knowing the girl for years, I knew her beforehand and introduced her to MostWam.
I protected the girls working in the studio, when I wasn't sure the full story. Once I heard the details of the situation and that the police were involved and dealing with the accusation, We put protocols in place to protect the girls and then work resumed.
We have continued to shoot with measures in place to make sure nothing like this happens again. Since this happened, all the girls have been made aware of the situation and they have made their own decision to continue to work for us. None of our girls are that desperate for money that they would work somewhere they feel uncomfortable.
The girls enjoy working for us because it's fun and non-serious job. Everyone who works for us is comfortable working for us. I'm personally close with most of the girls and they know they can speak to me if they have an issue. If they didn't feel able to speak to me, they are able to speak with Lisa or HR.
I've known about this situation since it happened, I know the girl, I know what was claimed on one side and the other and I made my own opinions on it based on me knowing the girl for years, I knew her beforehand and introduced her to MostWam.
I protected the girls working in the studio, when I wasn't sure the full story. Once I heard the details of the situation and that the police were involved and dealing with the accusation, We put protocols in place to protect the girls and then work resumed.
Al, I am glad procedures were put in place and I don't believe is punishing an entire company based on the actions of one man but there are a few things that bother everyone here. One, why weren't customers made aware? It clearly shows the company was trying to cover it up. Two, is one of those procedures that all models were told of the situation before deciding to shoot with you? I understand that you have procedures in place but if the models weren't aware then their face is on a product of a company which is represented by a sex offender. I am all for Mostwam continuing without Leon but if models were not made aware than that is a serious issue I have to question about mostwam continuing.
gyob1234 said: I have just two things to say, my wife was literally going to join umd in the next few weeks and was even considering becoming a producer with mostly if not all free videos but this whole incident has literally made her change her mind and now she has decided not to join for the foreseeable future if at all!
My second point is that Leon should be banned from UMD and mostwam should close down and reopen under new management and a new name and Leon should not be involved with the new store! But I know of three other people who have been scared away possibly temporarily but maybe permanently but I am not revealing their identities at their request!
My second point is that Leon should be banned from UMD and mostwam should close down and reopen under new management and a new name and Leon should not be involved with the new store! But I know of three other people who have been scared away possibly temporarily but maybe permanently but I am not revealing their identities at their request!
Please dude, this isn't the right thread for your serial lying.
I've read all of this thread, and I probably can't remember all the points I wanted to reply to, but here goes with some of them!
Firstly, there's no such thing as a "local only" news story. Almost every local newspaper in this country is directly owned by, or has links to a larger company, and stories are pooled for potential reproduction in any other print title published by that company. I can't remember the correct term, but there's also an industry-wide pool of court reports.
I'm bemused by the idea of an extra male being on set as somehow being a way to reassure models about their safety. An extra woman, maybe. An extra man, no. Whatever models might say to avoid upsetting producers, most models absolutely detest the numbers of hangers on who appear during filming.
I think the site owner is probably going to need a bit of time to work hard behind the scenes, to deal with the financial loose ends of the inevitable course of action.
Firstly, there's no such thing as a "local only" news story. Almost every local newspaper in this country is directly owned by, or has links to a larger company, and stories are pooled for potential reproduction in any other print title published by that company. I can't remember the correct term, but there's also an industry-wide pool of court reports.
I'm bemused by the idea of an extra male being on set as somehow being a way to reassure models about their safety. An extra woman, maybe. An extra man, no. Whatever models might say to avoid upsetting producers, most models absolutely detest the numbers of hangers on who appear during filming.
I think the site owner is probably going to need a bit of time to work hard behind the scenes, to deal with the financial loose ends of the inevitable course of action.
If this is one of the last days of Mostwam on UMD... hopefully it can live on in one form or another and the company doesn't fold as a result of this.
I just want to say that it's been a pleasure and an honour to have watched the greatest WAM site
Certainly since 2017 with the induction of Charlotte as Custom Manager... there's been a lot of people here on UMD that have felt like we have been part of the family creating and pushing customs and other content.
The hard work your team and girls have done in the last decade has been extraordinary, and has shaped the WAM community (and my life) in ways that I cannot describe.
I truly hope mostwam can continue to create content for years to come, I know there will be a lot of people that will follow this company after it's left UMD if that is what happens.
The company is so much more than one person, certainly the driving force of this company has always been the women... that are so talented and so brilliant at what they do and what they bring to content
We should salute every single model that is ever worked at mostwam and I will always cherish and enjoy moments that will last in my memory for so long
So a toast to Sky, Lucy, Amber, Charlotte, Emily, Rhian, Charlee, Bobi, Tilly, Casey, Leia, Lisa and everyone else!
I might get slated for saying this, but i don't care... its how my heart feels
Now i'm going to enjoy watching Mostwam for the rest of the night
I just want to say that it's been a pleasure and an honour to have watched the greatest WAM site
Certainly since 2017 with the induction of Charlotte as Custom Manager... there's been a lot of people here on UMD that have felt like we have been part of the family creating and pushing customs and other content.
The hard work your team and girls have done in the last decade has been extraordinary, and has shaped the WAM community (and my life) in ways that I cannot describe.
I truly hope mostwam can continue to create content for years to come, I know there will be a lot of people that will follow this company after it's left UMD if that is what happens.
The company is so much more than one person, certainly the driving force of this company has always been the women... that are so talented and so brilliant at what they do and what they bring to content
We should salute every single model that is ever worked at mostwam and I will always cherish and enjoy moments that will last in my memory for so long
So a toast to Sky, Lucy, Amber, Charlotte, Emily, Rhian, Charlee, Bobi, Tilly, Casey, Leia, Lisa and everyone else!
I might get slated for saying this, but i don't care... its how my heart feels
Now i'm going to enjoy watching Mostwam for the rest of the night
Philippa Forrester Found
Yeah, I don't post here often but this is too much!
@pennybanks's post was amazing (probably because it was born from IRL experience). I can only echo it and repeat the question: "What message do you think this sends out to people on here?!
As @kelseyrose said, no one is trying to cancel MostWAM, we're trying to see how this can work going forward (FWIW, I too am a MostWAM customer).
Let's remember that UMD were happy to close messy-jessie.co.uk because *someone* on the management of that site cheated UMDs nomination system! That's orders of magnitude less than having a registered sex offender on your staff! (So, as long as Leon remains...)
We're NOT arbitrating on whether Leon was innocent or guilty. That's not for us to judge! For us it's 'Do we want to support an organisation that allows a registered sex offender to carry on working with them?"
Also, like in the law, this will set a precedent! So, let's give Leon the benefit of the doubt and say that he's a good guy who had a hard time and for the sake of his kid plead guilty and is now on the list. What happens when the next person who is NOT a good guy and IS a sex offender turns up and says "Yeah, I was doing it for my aged mother! The press would have got me!" or some other convincing excuse: You can't ban one and not the other! Sex offenders can either sell here or not and it's up to UMD to get their priorities right:
1 man/producer (who can either do something else or work to get his conviction overturned) vs MANY women (and some men) who are tired of abusers being waved through with a firm patriarchal handshake!
@pennybanks's post was amazing (probably because it was born from IRL experience). I can only echo it and repeat the question: "What message do you think this sends out to people on here?!
As @kelseyrose said, no one is trying to cancel MostWAM, we're trying to see how this can work going forward (FWIW, I too am a MostWAM customer).
Let's remember that UMD were happy to close messy-jessie.co.uk because *someone* on the management of that site cheated UMDs nomination system! That's orders of magnitude less than having a registered sex offender on your staff! (So, as long as Leon remains...)
We're NOT arbitrating on whether Leon was innocent or guilty. That's not for us to judge! For us it's 'Do we want to support an organisation that allows a registered sex offender to carry on working with them?"
Also, like in the law, this will set a precedent! So, let's give Leon the benefit of the doubt and say that he's a good guy who had a hard time and for the sake of his kid plead guilty and is now on the list. What happens when the next person who is NOT a good guy and IS a sex offender turns up and says "Yeah, I was doing it for my aged mother! The press would have got me!" or some other convincing excuse: You can't ban one and not the other! Sex offenders can either sell here or not and it's up to UMD to get their priorities right:
1 man/producer (who can either do something else or work to get his conviction overturned) vs MANY women (and some men) who are tired of abusers being waved through with a firm patriarchal handshake!
I don't know if anyone at Mostwam knew about this so I'm not sure if they should all be punished for Leon's actions, but the best thing they can do at this point is to create an entirely new store and rename it and start over again without Leon. As an adult community, we must not allow people convicted of sexual assault to be supported and continue to work. As a producer, model, performer, and woman who represents this community, I think Leon should step down from Mostwam and if he doesn't then I think his store should be removed from the UMD.
This is probably the best outcome to be fair. Leon has to step down permanently since a convicted sex offender simply cannot continue working on this site no matter how people feel about MostWam and it's content, the site still continues with more safeguards in place to protect models working there, and in general, more safeguards and protection are put in place in general across all stores and producers across the platform, and that producers are educated on how to conduct themselves (even though they should already know how to have basic human decency, and it's sad they need to learn how to act appropriately and with comm sense and decency).
That's the main takeaway from all this. It's protection. Things like this shouldn't happen in the first place. We should ensure first and foremost that the safety of the models is secured, as there is no content without them, and deserve our utmost respect, and we should return the favour by making sure that they are safe and treated well. If situations like this do happen again, we should take it as seriously as possible and ensure that it is dealt with efficiently and provide as much support for the victim as we can.
If someone decides to be a producer, there should be some requirement to have been fully trained in how to behave appropriately as one and have this be acknowledged on their profiles/websites/stores, to show they are committed to keeping everyone who works for them safe at all times.
Just noting again that I'm having intense conversations and chats on the backend. I'm not ignoring this. Thanks everybody for your help.
Stay messy, my friends
Messmaster said: Just noting again that I'm having intense conversations and chats on the backend. I'm not ignoring this. Thanks everybody for your help.
I cannot imagine how difficult and frustrating this entire thing has been for you and the staff and mods here, and I just want to say how much I appreciate allowing us all to have the conversation we're having in this thread (albeit, a very disappointing conversation at times).
naughtyjim said:
As @kelseyrose said, no one is trying to cancel MostWAM, we're trying to see how this can work going forward (FWIW, I too am a MostWAM customer).
As @kelseyrose said, no one is trying to cancel MostWAM, we're trying to see how this can work going forward (FWIW, I too am a MostWAM customer).
That's exactly what this debate is for. Whether we feel comfortable with a company continuing without certain prominent questions being answered. Why was this never disclosed? Is Leon going to be part of the company moving forward? We're the models notified of Leon's behavior that choose to shoot after the fact?
KelseyRose said:
I cannot imagine how difficult and frustrating this entire thing has been for you and the staff and mods here, and I just want to say how much I appreciate allowing us all to have the conversation we're having in this thread (albeit, a very disappointing conversation at times).
Messmaster said: Just noting again that I'm having intense conversations and chats on the backend. I'm not ignoring this. Thanks everybody for your help.
I cannot imagine how difficult and frustrating this entire thing has been for you and the staff and mods here, and I just want to say how much I appreciate allowing us all to have the conversation we're having in this thread (albeit, a very disappointing conversation at times).
Agreed
RevSlymsford said:
I would politely disagree. I don't think it is dangerous in a civilised society to ask that all viewpoints and possibilities are considered before a verdict is reached (whatever the context).
In those posts, I was responding directly to posts saying that there was no plausible reason why Leon would say he was guilty if he wasn't (when there clearly was, and there is copious evidence of this in criminal history) and that the saying that 'there's no smoke without fire' is enough to condemn someone (which I disagree with entirely).
You are right...I wasn't in the police enquiry room and I haven't seen the transcripts...none of us have, and that's entirely my point. (Unless you have, in which case why haven't you shared this proof). I was very careful to make clear I wasn't saying that Leon was innocent / justified or whatever , far from it, ...just that his assertions that he was not guilty were plausible with what we knew at the time. A lot has moved on from when I posted and Leon has shared more with us, so we now know that something did happen, but again none of us know exactly what.
I was at pains to point out that it was 100% right that the model was heard, and had her day in court. And nowhere have I said anything that contradicts that. I have only tried to suggest the principle that, before we rush to judgement, we wait until we have all viewpoints, and carefully weigh everything before us. Especially as, with a guilty plea, the evidence was never tested before a jury.
And the final point I would make is that we now do have Leon's account, and we do know that clearly *something* happened, howsoever occasioned, that was evidentially strong enough for the CPS to charge. Leon pled guilty and was sentenced and punished. Even though the judge said it was 'completely out of character', it is absolutely right that, on the basis he pled guilty, he was punished in accordance with that plea.
The bit I struggle with, is why in society we then feel the need to inflict further punishment on those who have already received their punishment via the courts, and had their lives turned upside down as well. Surely the punishment aspect is what the courts are there for.
Leon's marriage is over. He has to tell all future models he was convicted of a sex offence. He has to tell his child the same thing, at some stage. He has a suspended sentence hanging over him. All of these things may well be the right outcomes for this moment of madness.
But I don't get why we can then feel entitled to say 'no..the courts didn't do enough. We are all without sin here and we cast you out and push you further into a downward spiral'. My feeling is the courts have done their job, Leon has received his punishment and anyone who chooses to boycott him should feel 100% able to do so. But I don't feel it's UMD's job to hand out further 'justice'.
I do note also that we often read cases of those who, through an ''out of character' (in the Judge's words) moment of madness, are double punished..not just by the courts, but then by wider society and can't rebuild their livelihood even after receiving their punishment in the courts. And then when the person is driven to desperate acts, there's much hand-wringing when it is way too late.
Lastly, as others have said, it's absolutely vital we remember the victim too. I really hope and pray that the court case brought her closure and that she is able to move on. Whatever exactly happened, she was left in a position where she felt she needed to put herself through the trauma of a court case in order to seek justice. And that would never be done lightly. I just don't feel the two things are mutually exclusive, that if we have some empathy for Leon and feel that we should leave the retributive justice to the legal system, it means we are pro sex offenders. To me that's a massive misrepresentation, intentional otherwise.
Lastly, people have talked about those with vested interests. I am a direct business rival of Leon. It would probably benefit me financially if he was kicked off UMD. But I am sticking my head above the parapet because I am all for trying to find the nuance in an increasingly black and white world.
And if all of the above means "I have lost a lot of credibility" as you write, then I will have to pay that price.
VAVAVIE said:
I think given you are a producer who has to employ female models you are sending out a slightly dangerous message here. For the CPS to authorise a court case the evidence has be pretty strong. I'm guessing you haven't obtained the transcript and I'm guessing you haven't worked out that despite confessing to copping a feel on a young girls naked breasts on the night it happened and then saying he only pleaded guilty 10 minutes before you are saying it 'might' not have happened. Then for over two years this man has said nothing to this forum and has continued to make large amounts of money from his sites? Are you sure you think that store and person should remain? Sorry but I think you've just lost a lot of credibility.
I think given you are a producer who has to employ female models you are sending out a slightly dangerous message here. For the CPS to authorise a court case the evidence has be pretty strong. I'm guessing you haven't obtained the transcript and I'm guessing you haven't worked out that despite confessing to copping a feel on a young girls naked breasts on the night it happened and then saying he only pleaded guilty 10 minutes before you are saying it 'might' not have happened. Then for over two years this man has said nothing to this forum and has continued to make large amounts of money from his sites? Are you sure you think that store and person should remain? Sorry but I think you've just lost a lot of credibility.
I would politely disagree. I don't think it is dangerous in a civilised society to ask that all viewpoints and possibilities are considered before a verdict is reached (whatever the context).
In those posts, I was responding directly to posts saying that there was no plausible reason why Leon would say he was guilty if he wasn't (when there clearly was, and there is copious evidence of this in criminal history) and that the saying that 'there's no smoke without fire' is enough to condemn someone (which I disagree with entirely).
You are right...I wasn't in the police enquiry room and I haven't seen the transcripts...none of us have, and that's entirely my point. (Unless you have, in which case why haven't you shared this proof). I was very careful to make clear I wasn't saying that Leon was innocent / justified or whatever , far from it, ...just that his assertions that he was not guilty were plausible with what we knew at the time. A lot has moved on from when I posted and Leon has shared more with us, so we now know that something did happen, but again none of us know exactly what.
I was at pains to point out that it was 100% right that the model was heard, and had her day in court. And nowhere have I said anything that contradicts that. I have only tried to suggest the principle that, before we rush to judgement, we wait until we have all viewpoints, and carefully weigh everything before us. Especially as, with a guilty plea, the evidence was never tested before a jury.
And the final point I would make is that we now do have Leon's account, and we do know that clearly *something* happened, howsoever occasioned, that was evidentially strong enough for the CPS to charge. Leon pled guilty and was sentenced and punished. Even though the judge said it was 'completely out of character', it is absolutely right that, on the basis he pled guilty, he was punished in accordance with that plea.
The bit I struggle with, is why in society we then feel the need to inflict further punishment on those who have already received their punishment via the courts, and had their lives turned upside down as well. Surely the punishment aspect is what the courts are there for.
Leon's marriage is over. He has to tell all future models he was convicted of a sex offence. He has to tell his child the same thing, at some stage. He has a suspended sentence hanging over him. All of these things may well be the right outcomes for this moment of madness.
But I don't get why we can then feel entitled to say 'no..the courts didn't do enough. We are all without sin here and we cast you out and push you further into a downward spiral'. My feeling is the courts have done their job, Leon has received his punishment and anyone who chooses to boycott him should feel 100% able to do so. But I don't feel it's UMD's job to hand out further 'justice'.
I do note also that we often read cases of those who, through an ''out of character' (in the Judge's words) moment of madness, are double punished..not just by the courts, but then by wider society and can't rebuild their livelihood even after receiving their punishment in the courts. And then when the person is driven to desperate acts, there's much hand-wringing when it is way too late.
Lastly, as others have said, it's absolutely vital we remember the victim too. I really hope and pray that the court case brought her closure and that she is able to move on. Whatever exactly happened, she was left in a position where she felt she needed to put herself through the trauma of a court case in order to seek justice. And that would never be done lightly. I just don't feel the two things are mutually exclusive, that if we have some empathy for Leon and feel that we should leave the retributive justice to the legal system, it means we are pro sex offenders. To me that's a massive misrepresentation, intentional otherwise.
Lastly, people have talked about those with vested interests. I am a direct business rival of Leon. It would probably benefit me financially if he was kicked off UMD. But I am sticking my head above the parapet because I am all for trying to find the nuance in an increasingly black and white world.
And if all of the above means "I have lost a lot of credibility" as you write, then I will have to pay that price.
Beautiful words Rev. I'm sure you've done enough so that Leon will now sell you the Mostwam catalog at a discount once he's banned. You can feel free to return to your daily posts promoting exploitative Latin American content now and stop sucking up to a convicted sex offender
I'm shocked at some of the male responses on here. I'm amazed any female would like to remain on this Forum. We all like sexual activity but very sinister opinions are flowing from customers and some producers alike. I suggest everybody reads the whole thread before choosing who to spend money with.
Separately though as the person who agreed to speak out about Leon and his companies here are very important bullet points in regards to this man and his company based on fact only and facts given in this thread by Leon and Mostwams 'Al' and facts available in the public domain
1) Leon admits the crime
2) A UK Crown Court convicted him
3)A huge sob story from Leon mitigated the sentence passed
4)He is a sex offender
5)A female Mostwam model was molested
6)Lisa left Leon in August 2020 at which point P.P.H. Ltd was split 60% Leon/ 40% Lisa
7)Leon took 100% ownership 10 days after Lisa left
8)The last accounts show £60k plus AFTER all expenses including wages are paid.
9)Leon confirms Lisa posted when [redacted] left
10) Leon confirms Lisa is still an employee
11) Mostwam Al confirms he knew straight after the assault took place
This confirms Mostwam (or really P.P.H. Ltd) is rotten to the core with Al and Lisa joining Leon in being totally complicit in continuing to trade without informing the owner of UMD and taking over two years of income until being caught out by a third party.
Importantly in addition to the girl Leon was found guilty of molesting by a court of law he now states he has another problem with another girl and this is the girl who has approached me.
So that is two girls confirmed by Leon himself.
It isn't that girl who has approached me, nor it is [redacted] and none of the girls this girl has put me in touch with are the girl he molested, [redacted] or the girl he thinks has come to me.
I will have to stop giving any further information on here regarding the girls I am talking to as they have to now have a discussion themselves,take legal advice on their treatment by Leon.
Reading through the thread it was mentioned that the Jessie (Messy Jessie) or the guy behind her had complained about poor treatment towards the female models so I have asked a producer to find that conversation.
I only now say my heart goes out to the many females on here who now feel like shit about a lot of the responses which are shameful and have also have awful experiences themselves.
So far we've had lots of victim blaming (including by the guilty sex offender) and justification that poor little Leon is the actual victim and that the company producing the WAM content and receiving the income is very separate to Leon. It's not,he's own 100% of it and those 'running' it with him have made the decision to go along with his dishonesty.
How much more does an organisation have to do to be banished in all its forms from UMD?
As someone said manipulating sales figures to improve rank or whatever Messy Jessie did seems extremely tame by comparison.
Separately though as the person who agreed to speak out about Leon and his companies here are very important bullet points in regards to this man and his company based on fact only and facts given in this thread by Leon and Mostwams 'Al' and facts available in the public domain
1) Leon admits the crime
2) A UK Crown Court convicted him
3)A huge sob story from Leon mitigated the sentence passed
4)He is a sex offender
5)A female Mostwam model was molested
6)Lisa left Leon in August 2020 at which point P.P.H. Ltd was split 60% Leon/ 40% Lisa
7)Leon took 100% ownership 10 days after Lisa left
8)The last accounts show £60k plus AFTER all expenses including wages are paid.
9)Leon confirms Lisa posted when [redacted] left
10) Leon confirms Lisa is still an employee
11) Mostwam Al confirms he knew straight after the assault took place
This confirms Mostwam (or really P.P.H. Ltd) is rotten to the core with Al and Lisa joining Leon in being totally complicit in continuing to trade without informing the owner of UMD and taking over two years of income until being caught out by a third party.
Importantly in addition to the girl Leon was found guilty of molesting by a court of law he now states he has another problem with another girl and this is the girl who has approached me.
So that is two girls confirmed by Leon himself.
It isn't that girl who has approached me, nor it is [redacted] and none of the girls this girl has put me in touch with are the girl he molested, [redacted] or the girl he thinks has come to me.
I will have to stop giving any further information on here regarding the girls I am talking to as they have to now have a discussion themselves,take legal advice on their treatment by Leon.
Reading through the thread it was mentioned that the Jessie (Messy Jessie) or the guy behind her had complained about poor treatment towards the female models so I have asked a producer to find that conversation.
I only now say my heart goes out to the many females on here who now feel like shit about a lot of the responses which are shameful and have also have awful experiences themselves.
So far we've had lots of victim blaming (including by the guilty sex offender) and justification that poor little Leon is the actual victim and that the company producing the WAM content and receiving the income is very separate to Leon. It's not,he's own 100% of it and those 'running' it with him have made the decision to go along with his dishonesty.
How much more does an organisation have to do to be banished in all its forms from UMD?
As someone said manipulating sales figures to improve rank or whatever Messy Jessie did seems extremely tame by comparison.
10/23/22, 6:56pm: Post edited to remove name of a model who may or may not be the model in question.
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