Many people think so. Republicans & Democrats have been massive shills for forcing big oil big coal big gas onto the public, giving trillion dollar welfare to big oil, money that could have & should have gone to green energy & transportation instead, and invading other countries to steal their oil for decades. So this finally caused Saudi muslim rightwingers who have had enough of that shit to fly airplanes into buildings.

But liberals - Greens, Socialists - as well as anarchists have fought for decades to force government, including the military, to serve sustainable energy & fight the war against anthropogenic global warming (AGW).

By the way: the post "Were leftists to blame for Trump winning?" is insulting to both leftists and rightists. The post implies Trump winning is a bad, and presumes that rightists are for Trump, thus, rightists are for something bad. And it insults leftists because the statement implies leftists are at fault/to blame for something.

It's difficult to make a post successfully on a touchy subject when you've got, IMO, an over-zealous mod who may have their heart in the right place, but doesn't really know the subject and is frantically pressing moderate buttons anyway. But I'll give it another go, based on something I read today that reminded me. And I'm going to split it up. If the mod deletes all parts under the "it's offensive banner" then I'll know that not only is free speech not allowed on UMD, but anything that suggests the mod is anti-free speech is also not allowed. A bit like if the mods burned all books, in case you read the wrong one.

to be continued....or deleted?

I removed your post because it came across as bigoted and dismissive. If you have an actual point to make, then make it. Intelligent conversation is great, but cheap shots like just shitting on the Quaran is not.

Messmaster

OK MM

We often get told one thing about Islam, but then the Quran says another. No one bothers to check. Here is an example from Barack Obama's 2009 Cairo speech. You can find transcriptions of this online.

(while talking about AQ, 9/11 etc)

"Their actions are irreconcilable with the rights of human beings, the progress of nations, and with Islam. The Holy Quran teaches that whoever kills an innocent is as -- it is as if he has killed all mankind. And the Holy Quran also says whoever saves a person, it is as if he has saved all mankind"

It sort of backs up Dr Z's post and concepts like it. But the part of the Quran he's paraphrasing is verse 5:32. Read it (it's online for free) and you'll spot where he got it from. You may notice a lot of missing text and the omission of 5:33, which continues directly from 5:32. The edit Obama used is reassuring, but is it accurate?

I guess my point would be if you have an opinion on something, best to know a bit about it. No need for me to take cheap shots, or say anything good, bad or indifferent about the Quran. If you want to know, if you want a more informed opinion, read it. if you don't want to know, don't.

Yeah, cultural stuff matters, Abrahamic religion sucks, ideas matter, they have effects. But at this level of abstraction, it's not especially helpful in locating blame for a single intended action.

In contrast, most people would want to say, "the highjackers and those that abetted them are responsible, as are those who held a duty to stop them but failed through negligence". That's asking for a pretty specific kind of answer with a pretty narrow scope, and it has some pretty interesting answers. Bush obviously failed to read the memo, and the FBI failed to some extent in dealing with intel they had access to re: Ramzi Yousef. But if you widen the circle any larger and you start to lose focus on the distinctive features of the question.

So really, how far back do you want to go? Do we ever stop the regress? Zoidberg's answer in another thread was, no, we never stop the regress. By his logic, we can blame the Big Bang and everything after it for 9/11. And that's probably a bit much. Seems to me that blaming the Quran for it is also a bit outside of the scope of the question (though admittedly quite significant when we are talking about other related questions).

I was really referring to greedy selfish rightwingers in the West who think they are entitled to violently steal (using military) to obtain other countries' oil instead of doing the hard work
of getting the West off burning fossil fuels & onto sustainable energy, electric trucks & cars,
electric charging stations to replace all gasoline stations, powered by as much wind & solar
before resorting to nuclear power, and going vegetarian or vegan to reduce waste
of growing crops to feed animals. And supporting rightwing conservative fascist theocracies
like Saudi Arabia.

That arrogance & self-entitlement made rightwing muslim conservatives
(Al Qaeda & the Taliban) enraged & willing to die for their cause to reduce the number
of Americans.

We still need fossil fuels for manufacturing things.

I know in 2000 Sweden promised to get entirely off fossil fuels by 2020.
I read that somewhere.

There is nothing special nor important about the bible or koran or Adam Smith opinions on capitalism or Karl Marx opinions on capitalism or communism or L Ron Hubbard's Dianetics
or Dr Peter Singer's essays on animal liberation or any work of man that says people are not allowed to defend or shit all over it.

But, yeah, best to stick to REDUCTIONISM: the only ideology that best captures the notion
of caring only about actual physical decisions and keeping tabs on whom those decision
affect.

NEVER shit on reductionism!

Thank you for revising your quip into a well-formed argument. That's all I ask.

Messmaster

Here is what I look at. Who benefited the most from 9/11. Don't forget all the lies Bush used to take us to war against Iraq. Lies that he was never held accountable for. Did they know the attack was possible? That I can't say other than the evidence that it was in security briefings as a possibility. Do I think either side knew on 9/11 that the attack was going to happen? No. War is a money business, and Cheney's business was weapons.

The biggie with America is no cruel or unusual punishment. I think God knows it.