This discussion by Jaykain ( https://umd.net/forums/a-separate-forum-for-finds-a ) got me thinking about something. I always get requests to add a new forum. Its always a great reason, but just one out of a hundred others that are also good. I've always kept the forums tight in order to concentrate them and keep it busy, and not favor one pref over another.

I spawned the Male Wam forum years ago because there was a big enough portion of our visitors that would use it, but there weren't enough visitors to warrant separate Male Wetlook and Male Messy forums. So that's why we have that oddball forum.

My new idea is to just remove that forum altogether and let males and females post to wet or messy. Then let the user filter their forum of choice, to only see the male content or only female content on it, or both (default) by a simple radio button at the top.

When you post a new thread, you can tick whether it's content for a male or female audience, but that will be pre-checked based on how you already have your UMD preferences set, or the context in which you clicked New Thread.

Instead of adding a new forum, this subtracts one and makes things simpler, and also less confusing since the categorization makes more sense. But it's more flexible since technically there will be female wet and messy forums, and also male wet and messy forums. They are all treated equal by default, but it's all under the control of the viewer. Thoughts?





https://umd.net/forums/a-separate-forum-for-finds-a

Personally, I like it how it is. I like the fact there is a separate forum for male wam and a separate forum for wetlook and messy and I think that it make life simpler. It is ok having a 'this content is for...' option but people are likely to forget to tick it or not bother and this could make the forum cluttered.

It makes sense in theory, but I just suspect that no matter how much you try to idiot-proof it, you're going to get so much inaccurately tagged content that we won't be able to filter it effectively.

Will there be a tick box for "oddball"? Just kidding So essentially the "Male WAM" links would go away but "Male/Female/Both" radio buttons would appear at the top. Feels a little like "six of one, half dozen of the other". And I wonder how the "Male WAM" community would feel about their named forum going away. On first impression, I don't see the payoff as being significant enough to justify all the work it would take to make it happen, not to mention the increased complexity of the back end.

Given the history, I'd leave things well alone.

The old saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it" I think applies here!

I doubt that would work very well. I would imagine that you are going to see a ton of stuff tagged wrong. Even if the default setting is based on what the person has set (people who say they post mostly female wam will have it prechecked as female and vice versa), there is going to have to be an initial setting for the default, and many users will never change that.

I think leaving it the way it is would be best. I remember the days when it wasn't split. There was a lot of drama.

Whenever you may something idiot-proof, they just build a better idiot.

It sounds good on paper, stream-lined, and if a new sub-group arises, then one could just include that new sub-group as an option!

However...

The long and short of it is, while it may seem like a good idea, the new interface might cause more problems then it solves. While I'm sure it's a minority, a vocal minority, but still a minority, certain people will make their displeasure known, and if it isn't their specific cup of tea, will complain about the filters being too broad, (even if the problem comes from user error) while another group will complain about not getting enough exposure, probably from misapplied tags.

But I appreciate the fact that you are thinking about ways to improve the user experience for everyone.

Yeah, I think the sort boxes are a neat idea, and seems fun for a developer, but will inevitably lead to confusion and do more harm than good. Even the sorting in Wall functions down seem to work properly.

I like my forum just the way it is.

I agree with all those that say don't change it. If folks don't tag the content properly then you will disengage a lot of people. I for one would stop coming if I was having to scroll through lots of male wam to get to what I like just because posters forgot to tag properly. Nothing wrong with male wam, it's just not my thing.

Again, it would default based on context and preference. And unlike now, you would have the power to change it per-post. But otherwise there is no additional burden or anything for anyone to do.

It's confusing right now for a lot of users. When they want to post messy male content, which forum should it go into? I spend a lot of inbox time explaining over and over why the forums are set up that way, because it's not really logical to have content-based forums and then one random gender-based one. I think it's the reason a lot of male posts end up in the wrong forum in the first place.


Well the point is that there are no separate male wet or messy forum counterparts to the female ones, and that confuses people. People ask me all the time why the Wetlook and Messy forums are called that but only allow female content, and then there's this Male one that has everything.


The Male Wam forum would not go away. It would still be there by simply clicking the "male" bubble so you only see male posts. You'd have the additional ability to see only wetlook or messy male content, unlike now. No functionality lost, and more flexibility gained.


I hate that phrase! It's not broke, and I'm not fixing it. I'm trying to improve what's here as well as lighten my own administrative workload on the backend. I got the same type of friction when I added the Male forum in the first place, and it seems that people will just reject change, not on the merits of the change, but because they don't like change itself, but I'm trying to get insight past that. There are a lot of veterans here, but new people come every day, and I try to look at things with fresh eyes and make it as simple as possible.


That's because it's based on cookies and I can look at that. But even if something didn't work in the past, that can't be a reason not to try to improve.


Once again, it would be auto-tagged based on the context and the person making the post, a lot like it's done now. You never select which forum you want to post to because UMD knows which forum you were already on, and just puts the new post there. I'm not trying to make people think harder, but less.

I'm not saying this won't be an adjustment or posts won't ever be made incorrectly. But rather than lend any new ideas, all people usually say is how it won't work. And then they argue over which new forum category should be made, which really doesn't solve anything.

Puts a little too much on the user having a brain.

It would become crazy annoying having all those "what about separate male forum?" and having to explain they are the ones in control.

Male/Female is a broad enough difference for a separate forum.

Would a male-on-male video be for a gay male or straight female audience? It would be much clearer to have boxes to tick for what genders get messy.

I think it's a lot simpler the way things are at present.

(As for people 'alerting' to the same old clips.... I dunno, but some internet forums allow the Moderators to merge threads. Is that a possibility here?)

I wonder if anybody is reading what I'm typing The user would not have to do any extra thinking, and it would be simpler. The male/female box would be checked for him by default while he posts, the same way the "Wetlook" or "Messy" forum is already selected for you and you don't have to think about that, which hopefully should alleviate errors. The user should be less confused because we currently have a split categorization system that makes no logical sense to the new user, so e.g. messy male stuff ends up in Messy, because it's... messy. So people are already confused by this, and I and the mods have to move messages all the time, plus explain why things are categorized that way, which is indicative of a confusing layout.

I love your opinions on this, but I'm not sure people are hearing or responding to the actual logic behind it, so much as just not wanting any change. So I'll go ahead and implement this in the future, but if anybody has any more insight, I'm always all ears!

Thanks guys
Messmaster

I hear exactly what you're saying, and I think it's a good idea. We already choose which forum to use and it remembers that choice when we post. This seems to be the kind of thing where you should have confidence in your decision and just do it!

I know which forum I post in... except I arrived at this post from the messy forum and now it says wetlook at the top and there's a drop down which allows me to change which forum my reply gets posted in. Now THAT'S confusing!! Now I have to find my own way back to the messy forum after never leaving it.

(Edit: the messy forum list page also ignores this reply when showing who last replied to this thread and when... Edit 2: hmm at least it did until I posted that edit! This speaks to somebody's earlier point about fixing things that don't work as expected rather than adding technical complexity)

I get what you are saying perfectly and understand why it is confusing as is. It would be a little like a book store organizing their science section as books about physics, books about chemistry, and books by Spanish authors.

The problem with the box being checked by default is that at some point the poster had to set what that default will be.

So a new user signs up, and one of their choices, along with all other initial settings, is "What kind of content do you plan to normally post: 1 - female wam, 2 - male wam?" and that is used to set the default in the future. If a lot of people just blow by that (which will probably have a default option itself), as they probably initially do with a lot of the customization settings, it might not be set to a default that agrees with what they are actually going to post in the future. So, the problem that I see is the setting up of what will become the default. Now if you explicitly set it up so there is no default on that initial choice and they absolutely have to make a choice there, then we can be pretty confident that the future defaults will be ok.

I hope that is clear what I am saying, because I do agree with you on most of this.

I think MM's idea is the best way forward. Only thing I'd suggest is have it controlled by URL and not by cookies - users get anti-virus or anti-advert software that exterminates cookies to big up the count of "threats averted", and thus breaks all their settings. The user then blames the websites for the ensuing chaos.

Thanks! I just updated it so you won't get that option anymore when editing a post. Thanks for mentioning that. The reason I put it there was to allow users to change the forum of the OT after they post... but it should only appear for the OT, right!


That section is cached and is not realtime, so it takes a few minutes to update. I've continually added caching around the site in order to speed pages up, and prevent the server from crashing at peak times, as it used to like once a day. It's an added complexity and adds latency, but it's completely necessary or the site won't run. It's a feature, not a bug!! That said, this forum change should hopefully makes things simpler. It will remove confusion by new users who post male messy stuff to the regular messy forum because it seemed like the logical thing to do, because now it is the thing to do. They don't have to think about it anymore. Less moderation for us, or at least that's the idea!


Wish I had thought of that analogy


Now we are getting somewhere. Yeah, UMD has already been stamping all forum posts with the posters' set gender prefs. And the default, if the user hadn't set one, is female content, because that's way more likely to be the case anyway. If not, we can change the gender stamp on all his past content later just by editing his profile.


Crystal clear! But yeah, that was the idea... put the setting on the registration form where they set that default. I'll adopt your idea to leave it blank and force them to choose one, too. Thanks! Even if they mess up and they or I need to change their pref later, UMD updates all their posted content to match the new setting. They won't have to think about it again. Thanks for those insights and the required choice idea. I think I'll break this in easy by keeping the gender filter option and the actual Male Wam forum around together for a little while.

Right. Let's bear that statement in mind.




Right... so no one will notice the checkbox and keep asking for a male wam forum because they don't want to see dick.


Right, so why change the system instead of fixing the system? I think you are thinking like a coder here. Use engineering to fix a problem instead of using straightforward language.

Currently the menu reads:

- Forums Home

- Wetlook

- Messy

- Male Wam

- Classifieds

- Wammasters

- Store Owners

- Off Topic

- Polls

- Picture Archive

- Video Archive


So how about some clear language and organisation?


- Forums Home

- Wetlook

- Messy Females

- Messy Males

- Polls

- Off Topic

- Picture Archive

- Video Archive

- Store Owners

- Webmasters



Boom!

Problem solved.

Ah, this is the wrinkle I didn't get in your first post. So at present a new guy sees that big "Messy" link and naturally posts there causing extra work for you all. I have no quibble with fixing that.

Noise's solution makes sense to me too, but with the new titles like "Wet Females", "Messy Females", "Wet & Messy Males". Admittedly those are rather long and inelegant titles.

Really appreciate some of the changes you've made lately like the much cleaner Advanced Search ( https://umd.net/advanced_search ). Hope this little storm doesn't put you off seeking our feedback, opinionated as it is

i really don't see the point in re-merging the forums. I believe in equality for everyone, (gender, sexuality, etc.), and I want to word this carefully so my words are not misunderstood.

I don't think this would be a case of moving forward as a community, this would be a step back. The way forums are now, you can go to the exact forum that fits your preference. To take that away in hopes of a filter working, and not to sound overly dramatic, but its basically taking away the ability to choose.

As a heterosexual, I don't want to start opening threads with naked men in it. As I'm sure homosexual men do not want to start opening threads with naked women in them.

MessMaster I'm curious how exactly would the filter detect a male from female pic?

Why fix what isnt broken? Honestly if the small minority of people still cant get their head around the forum, then why change it and make the majority learn a new way of using it again. It doesn't make sense.

I hate the idea, i really do, sorry MessMaster, as i always say you do a great job on this forum and keeping it running smoothly, but the idea of having to try and 'filter' something really annoys me. I don't want to be juggling with setting etc, i just want to come here, see what i'm interested in in the messy forum, reply and buy (if applicable) and that's that. If i have to come on here and fiddle with setting and filters to avoid male wam (which i hate) i'm pretty much going to get annoyed and just leave the place. I've always said, just change the names of the forums instead, Male WAM, Female WAM, easy, simple to see and no hassle. The reason Male wam is posted in Messy is because that's just it, they see messy so male wammers head there with their content. Something defining is easier to see. Maybe a homepage article to say, or something in the producers section to say, i don't know, but if i have to fiddle with filters, i'm probably going to disappear from here because i don't like the sound of the hassle of it all. I just need simple. Change of forum names like i've suggested, i think is best. You have mods and Admin who can help out if someone accidentally posts in the wrong section, but filters, just no, please no. I've never filtered anything before on here, never hidden a users posts from the feed, nothing. Don't want to have to deal with that now. Pleeeeeease don't make changes that are going to confuse people

Because for those of us who've been here since the early days of the forum before things got separated, remember the problems and the drama it caused. So it wouldn't exactly be doing something new, it's going back to the way it was. Except this time a filter is suppose to separate things in theory.

This isn't the discussion (this thread is about eliminating the Male forum, there's a different thread about putting Alerts in a new forum)... But even so, your logic is flawed. A new forum for Alerts would still be ON this website. When someone wonders why their fundraising video suddenly has 3000 new views, they will look at the source and see "UMD.net" and freak. They won't care that those hits came from the "Finds" forum rather than the "Messy" forum.

Everything works fine as it is I'd say.

If you change something then people can and will bollocks it up for you or just whine about it.
Right now everything just works.

And not to sound rude... But you're still in the wrong thread. YOUR thread (about a separate forum for Alerts) is further down the page. THIS thread was started by MM, and concerns eliminating the Male forum in favor of filtering.

It is a bit confusing that two totally different threads about "new forums" appeared within 24 hours, of course.

FTR: Years ago, the idea was floated of a separate forum that would be more PG-rated and less adult. As you might imagine from my site, I was a VERY vocal advocate for this.

It was shot down pretty quickly, and the responses I got ranged from very polite ("I just don't think we should separate the forum that way") to fairly hostile ("This is a FETISH forum devoted to ADULT PORN and if you don't like seeing naked chicks and dicks, maybe you should leave.")

Anyway. I've come to peace with it since. The UMD is the hub of this community, and at the same time, it is 100% a fetish site. There are a handful of much smaller, quieter forums scattered around the web that downplay the adult aspects, and I would check those out if you need something less adult and more suited to mainstream, non-fetish-driven alerts and videos.