In my mind's eye I actually saw your face at this point! It looked like: https://foreignpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/ricks1_1536.jpg?w=625

Wait, are you saying that he did that in one of his videos and is selling it on his store????

Hey, I 100% get your position. I've been in trouble with the law before, and it can really warp your perspective! We need to all try and pull together, messmaster isn't out to get anyone. If you need someone to talk to, PM me, I'm free!

Yes - back in 2010. He admitted to doing it in this forum.
However it's so long ago I can't remember exactly what the model said about it - I'm sure she posted on here after she found out but it's so long ago I can't remember what she said

For the Angelfan discussion. I have the original 2010 discussion on the topic. I will give the highlights.

AF emailed inappropriately with a model.
AF apologized on the forums.
Model worked with him again.
In that thread it came out about the ejaculated.
AF instead of replying in the thread, went into chat where there is no record and claimed it was consensual.
There was also talk in the thread of a custom being requested with that specific element of sexual assault includes.
It was determined that was a horrible custom request and that maybe the person should not be making customs.
No models spoke up in this thread. But I am hunting for it.

So could you tell us which crimes are "drama" and which are serious enough to merit our consideration? Because my personal feeling is that most crimes are crimes for a good reason, sexual assault included.

Also, not to ask the really obvious question, but if you're against perpetuating drama, why did you choose to come into this thread and start making incendiary accusations?

The look isn't a million miles off but I have significantly more hair.

All information pertaining to the facts of the incident are pertinent and appropriate. What is not appropriate is the manner in which UMD has been abused to advocate various points of view on. The matter should have been handled in private but it was not, and was not for a reason, it was desired to leverage UMD into taking a particular action by playing to the gallery (the UMD membership) in hopes of obtaining additional leverage in obtaining the desired result from UMD. This in turn triggered a drama triangle because this was done in public and it is inevitable that UMD members from all sides of this would be drawn into this, after all, that is what drama does...

I will refrain from answering the second question fully as it is less a question than an accusation. As to the accusation, you are welcome to your opinion...

Drama is a specific transaction involving a circle of persecutor, victim, and rescuer, and participants can and do switch roles at will. Drama is fundamental to how humans interact with each other and is at the core of much that you see on TV, the movies, and in print.

Discussing drama is not necessarily drama, however, it is, of course possible to stray into drama when discussing drama. I choose to participate in this thread because drama is most definitely going on and I have an opinion about that and several other things...

I have not in any way said that I am somehow pure and incapable of participating in a drama triangle, in fact, very few humans are. Rather, I have brought the drama game aspect of this little transaction we've all been having to the surface because I believe the game has become destructive of what little real community exists here and that such should be put forth for all to see for what it is in case they too might think this has gone too far...

Like I said, if the drama game has become destructive, well, perhaps it might be worth pointing out that the way out is not to play...

What do you think this action/result was?

Not sure if I like being compared to a member of a live studio audience given everything I've posted in this thread but maybe I'm just misunderstanding you.

UMD has taken action on this matter, it would be presumptuous of me to try to restate it as I would doubtless miss some nuance of it and trigger yet more drama. I humbly refer you to the preceding posts on these threads for that information...

Any attempt for me to clarify will only result in yet more misunderstanding and further questions or exceptions to what I've said as, after all, this thread is a drama triangle with trolls under every bridge...

As I see it, this thread is effectively dead and all we are going right now is holding a graveside service...

It's really not, though. I'm honestly interested in figuring out why, if you're the anti-drama guy, you're choosing to perpetuate and draw out the drama. Like, seriously, if you really believe that it's a dead subject and no more needs to be said, wouldn't the most logical thing be to say no more? So I had to assume that you had some reason that you weren't divulging, and I wanted to know what it was. Happily for me, you told me (below).


Do you really feel that way, though? Honestly? I don't feel that way at all, and I would venture to guess that there are lots of other people who also don't feel that way. I mean, for one thing, conflict is a part of community. I don't mean to be harsh, but if your definition of community is "a place where everyone always gets along because they all share a common interest," then you might be way more naive than you realize. (Especially because, again, crimes are things that happen.)

And, I mean, yeah, some people have left. But that's also part of having a community, right? A "community" that doesn't give people the option to leave is not a community, it's either a cult or a prison. Anyway, unless I miss my guess, you're not exactly mourning the people who left.

So, again, I don't really get it. I can see that you're feeling ...distraught? annoyed? angry? something? So if you feel like you're losing your personal connection to the community because suddenly the community is making you feel bad in some way, then that makes sense. But even if that is what's happening, you have to admit that it's a little dramatic (cough) of you to project your personal feelings or experience onto the entire community as a whole. I mean, to use your own terminology, have you really been victimized so badly in this situation that you need someone to come and rescue you?

Thanks hun
I'm glad someone realised why I had to put on a temporary block xx

We definitely need guidelines for stuff like this. I think you and I saw it sbout the same time, I flagged it to MM and then opened the news article in a new tab to study, next time I reloaded the thread the OP had been edited, but people were yelling conspiracy. Definitely a lose/lose situation regardless what we did.

I'm thinking what might be useful for situations like that is an admin-only control that greys-out a thread, so it can't be replied to, and adds a big prominent note, "This item has been flagged to the site owner for investigation, please bear with us." That way people would know it was being properly looked at, rather than just swept under the mudpool, but without making it accessible or allowing a train-wreck to start building. And with guidelines that this is only to be used for major, serious, legal issues, not just run of the mill forum arguments or ranting.

Okay so that happened. After a straight week of this, I know we are all exhausted. We definitely need some closure and a revived sense of security and direction for the site. These repeating circles of arguments are unsustainable and are ripping us apart. Tensions are so high that there seems to be no end in sight. But it's time for peace again. To better prepare for situations like these there need to be updated terms and clear courses of action that we all already know about and can refer to, lest the community devour itself in endless doubt and cynicism.

Policy Updates
The original policy was that if it didn't happen here, and there is no evidence that can possibly be verified via our own sources, then it would be left open to public debate so individuals can decide for themselves how to react and who to support. We don't have the resources to run background checks or to hire private investigators to probe accusations of events that took place out in the real world. We also can't sustain endless he said / she said / they said and pressure campaigns to get one's way. So now it's clear that there needs to be some extrernal guidepost that, even if imperfect, we can all look to to settle these matters.

The Terms of Service has been updated to clarify that court cases will now be our de facto standard in times when there is otherwise not enough direct evidence in our posession to make a decision about these things. So a guilty verdict of sexual assault will be sufficient cause to ban a person or to forbid them from joining in the first place. It would be silly to think there would never be circumstances that call for extra consideration, but given that competitors and people with a bone to pick do try to use me to leverage UMD against each other (and to avoid some of the subjectiveness), I will be giving the most deference to the standard of an actual court verdict. I encourage anyone who feels they are in posession of real evidence of sexual assault, and who is confident they know who the perpetrator is, please also report this information to the police.

Steps Taken
Though the incident that precipiated the revived concern for personal safety had nothing to with this site, the concerns are legit nonetheless. People want a renewed commitment from the management that shows the seriousness with which we take these matters. Thanks to community suggestions, here are some updates that have I made in the past week.

You could already have the site filter content from other individual users. One of the things it does is it omits their forum threads from your view. Now it also blanks out any of their replies that they may have written within others' threads (not if they're quoted by someone else though).

You could already block a person from messaging you, but now your block also prevents them from replying to your thread, and from directly replying to any of your replies. We can't really block them from seeing your posts tho.

Forum threads already have an auto-bury feature after ~3 flags, and auto-delete after ~5 flags depending on other factors. So the community has always had the power to erase any forum post if enough people had flagged it. But these are knobs that I'll be turning for quicker effect, and I'll be encouraging more community participation with flagging in the future.

An auto-gag feature has been added, which will cut off a user's posting abilities across the entire site if they receive a certain threshold of flags within a certain amount of time. That will let community consensus quickly mute an individual while giving me time to review and assess if I'm ever away or overwhelmed at the moment by other things going on.

I will continue to update our policy and TOS as we grow from this into the future. I've already udated our Admin Guidelines to explain exactly what to do if someone posts sensitive or controversial information that lies outside the scope of our existing content guidelines.

Steps to be Taken
Whether for practical or aesthetic reasons, I have some work to do on making it a bit more obvious that a person can be blocked while inside an inbox conversation. Each message already has a report link underneath it, but I'll also add a separate report as well as block link underneath the text area itself.

Every piece of media by a person is accompanied by a "report" link. On the report form I will be adding an additional checkbox to also block the user, similar to how I added the option to block a user while reporting them on the Contact page... which by the way I've promised to make the block/report page less intimidating and more visually obvious as to its intended use, though I'm not yet convinced that it's a good look to completely remove or hide the optional field that lets them speak their mind or give additional info. We'll see about that. I am severely backed up on running the site, plus still handling a massive number of inbox messages and these particular changes aren't quick, so unfortunately I can't guarantee a turnaround time on them.

Mostwam
About Leon, I don't know where he and MostWam are going or what their future plans are. We wish him, Lisa, and their family well and hope that he grows from this. Peace to Mostwam Al, as I've never had any beef with him outside of this and it's sad to see him go. Wamgame has been amazing throughout this and he will be able to keep his store. He had used Leon's studio and facilities but his business was sufficiently separated that I have confidence he was not included in the coverup. I'll be working with him on the remaining transitions he needs to make.

To the real victim in all this, we all wish you well. If you ever read this, I personally apologize that such controversy has been drummed up in your name. You didn't ask for any of this and we'll do our best in the future to treat such situations with even more gravity, and enforce more respectful communication regardless of viewpoint.

To Penny: I harbor no ill will toward you. Your account is still live and the door is still open. If you choose to never come back, I understand. I know you emailed me the other day and I have yet to get back to you, but I will as soon as I can clear my head and figure out what to say to you. Everybody, I ask you that not demonize Penny or accuse her of using fake accounts to attack us. I have no evidence of that. Despite her reactions, I feel her heart is genuine. When you feel like you're in a fight, you fight. Regardless of what happens, please show her respect always.

Moving On
This thread is now locked, but as always, anyone can contact me directly for suggestions, or start a thread for community discussion. If it's not related to WAM, please let's keep it in the Non Wam forum or it will be moved there. That's where all the really important debates can happen while leaving the Messy and Wetlook forums in peace. I only ask that everybody keep it civil.

There were a couple of true dicks that reared their heads in this discussion who needed to be banned for sure, but it's apparent to me that most of the defensiveness was really the venting of the type of fears and frustrations that we've all built up in our own personal lives. Despite how heated an argument gets, please remember that you're talking to another human who has been through some shit of their own, and that we're all vulnerable to each other. I apologize myself because I know I have come across as short or tone-deaf in my correspondence with some people this week. Sometimes I get so on my "just answer the damn question" that I can sometimes come across as cold and technical, especially while trying to keep up with the blistering speed that people were inboxing me this week.

Given the propensity for people to make up stuff in the vacuum of information, I may have to leave this thread up for reference, probably indefinitely. I may rename it to avoid some triggering. My fear is that it's so long that people will read just enough of it to become outraged all over again about questions that have been answered or settled later on. But that's the risk of extreme transparency and I feel the community is mature enough to handle it.

Thanks to everybody for their much needed advice, and for the support coming through on inbox, some of it from people I haven't heard from in years. I cried on most of them. And so did Messmistress, who has been having just as many sleepless nights as I have. She's been here by my side the entire time. Love you bay. Not that this is at all about me but there were a few times I really felt like giving up but you all held me together.

Conclusion
That's it for this thread everybody, but the learning continues. For now let's all take a deep breath and have a great, sloppy, slippery, gushy, mushy, splashy weekend.

Peace,
Messmaster

P.S. Thank you for WOTD! I promise I didn't do that myself!