So here is another ethics question for the community...

Is posting found content (I.e. The YouTube video I posted earlier and deleted once I saw the negative comments it garnered immediately after I shared it here..) as morally negligent as say WAMming someone and sharing the content without telling them about the fetish/potential viewers (I.e. Littlehill12, and other creeps of YouTube)?

After today I have decided until we have a more scrutinized and regulated processs for UMD membership I won't be able to share anything that catches my interest in WAM unless I myself have filmed it or have been given permission to do so.
In addition, I believe in an effort to clean house, a gentlemens (gentlewomens/LGBTQ etc.) should be made to no longer publicly share found content unless the persons are knowing of where it is being shared.

Just for me.. I wont be sharing anything publicly any longer.
And for clarity, I mean no disrespect to anyone else for their decision to post what catches their eye, or to MM. I do believe in an inclusive forum, I only mean to point out what I believe could be an issue spiraling.
Curious to hear your thoughts and opinions!

Yeah I think I'm with you on this. It's always sat a bit uneasy with me that posting YouTube clips on here that are made for entertainment and comedic reasons is allowed. This is a sexual site. I always wonder how it must make people feel if they ever new they were on a fetish site.

I've actually got a YouTube channel of girls getting Gunged. They know it's a fetish and that's who 90% of the audience is but I always promised them id never post it on any sites. Even to the point were I'll contact MM if anyone links to a video. That's more because they all have jobs and that could affect future careers.

It's an equation to be made for sure, the problem is that quantifying the creepiness that's possible from anonymous people behind a keyboard on the internet is almost impossible.

I generally go with think of a number, double it, triple it then multiply it by age, house number and number of miles travelled in the last quarter and then figure I'm still underestimating.

A shame because there are so many good people here.

Maybe it's time for a second community or MM can figure out a way of putting together a system of creating a "trusted" circle within the UMD forum so only people that are trusted can see posts other trusted people mark for them alone... and give it the rules of Fight Club.

That way stuff that is edge case don't blow up.

Basically though, those of us with empathy chips know what not to post. I generally stick with TV stuff as that's fair game. Pro internet stuff is as well I think, but I still didn't post one I came across recently despite it probably being OK with the owners.

We can already flag posts so non members can't see them, so that's a thing.

No idea whatsoever how what i suggested could be implemented as I am talking off the top of my very tired head right now.

If it's publicly available, it's legitimate to post it here. If you publish something, you don't get to control how people react to it.

One of the most useful functions of the UMD -- maybe THE most important thing the UMD is for -- is to share found content. And even though there are documented cases of clips getting deleted as soon as they're noticed here, I'm reluctant to just write off such an essential aspect of the UMD just because a few asshats don't know how to behave.

Rather than type pretty much the same thing again, I would just like to say I agree with pretty much all of this - certain members here can be quite damaging to this community as a whole - and I think we are getting to the point where we need to think a bit more about that...

And good post to the OP too

Wow...I enjoy the found content as much or more than the WAM producer material. Telling us you put it up and deleted it really is a teaser. What were people reacting negatively to? No need to repost, but a few bad eggs ruining it for everyone is really frustrating. Btw, if it was on youtube, a number of the bad eggs would have found it eventually, just a little slower.

All I can tell you is my own experience:
Public clips posted on other WAM forums = Zero disrespectful comments.
The same public clips later posted here = Numerous disrespectful comments, sometimes within hours of posting.

On a personal level, I would post clips on my old YT channel for days & weeks with no issues. Within the hour of posting a link on the UMD, it would be "flagged" for content. This was 2010. It quickly taught me the lesson that there are enough bad eggs on here to ruin it for the other 95% who are mostly decent.

Some of it's just numbers. Some of it's the ease for banned members to set up fake accounts even after being banned. And some of it is the fact that members are not banned from the UMD even when they do horrible, reprehensible things outside the UMD that hurt and damage the community's reputation. (Scammer Chris running his scams for almost 2 years before being banned... RunninRebel posting here while harassing women on Twitter at the rate of 200 per day... And the current pedophile creeps posting on numerous threads right now....)

I don't think the UMD can really limit membership. I don't think it's a good solution anyway, and I doubt it would help. Best is to find smaller, more trustworthy communities within the larger WAM-o-sphere... And just use the UMD to keep up on producer content.

This is a really tricky subject to have a definitive answer on.

How would you define an elite community?

Length of service? I have been a member of UMD since the very early days, this is my second profile following an inactive period and my UMD ID is 32000 (Messmaster is 1 ). The latest profile numbers are in the 65000s. So would it be unfair to exclude somebody purely because they are new? Yes.

What about inactivity? I have had for various reasons long periods of inactivity (just look at my posting history) but when I have been active I am fairly active.

I cannot due to personal circumstances produce images and videos (as much as I would like to ) so until recently my net input into the UMD community in the last few years was basically zero.

However, I have recently done quite a lot of work to save the WAM story side of the community. So would I have been excluded last year and included this year???

I think the only fair way is for people to think about the type of content they are uploading / cross-linking.

Professional stuff - fair game.

Mainstream TV, music videos etc, fair game.

Clips posted to the internet with the intent for the general public to view, e.g. challenges etc, then probably fair game.

Clips posted to the internet that are probably meant for friends and family? Probably not.

And my threshold here would be that the more 'mainstream' it is the less we should share it, for example a pie in the face at somebody's birthday party for a laugh is probably a no-no for me, whereas one where the person is sat in a bath tub waiting for it is probably more acceptable.

Finally (thankfully I hear you cry!!) I would not worry about the stalkers picking up on the links here, some of the most prolific stalkers / creeps will almost by definition be the ones finding a lot of this stuff, even if they are not sharing it all with us.

Until we can come up with a way of banning a user and making sure they stay banned then this will always be a problem which is why I believe common sense should rule. And yes, I do realise that this is the internet and common sense is in short supply at times

Rather than banning a user maybe we should have the admins make them invisible to everybody so we don't see their posts (and they will then hopefully get bored and leave without us biting back on their ludicrous comments!)

On UMD, creepiness goes to 11.

There is a difference between CAN and SHOULD. CAN you re-post anything that is publicly available? Sure, there are few laws (copyright and the such) stopping you. Yes, once you publish something you don't get to control how people react.

But ethics is a question of SHOULD. In this regard I am a resounding NO just like Dale, Liverpool, Noise, and others. I've been a quiet members for over 15-years. Back when UMD was mainly a listing of WAM sites and informed people of content updates.

I have always loved the forums and community. But even 15-years ago I felt iffy when someone would post a photo-set from a pie-throwing contest or food fight hosted by a church or something. The intent of the original publisher was NOT for me to have fapping material.... the posted it to share the fun their church or family was having.

My own personal ethics is to only re-post material from existing community members, producers, or TV/movies. Even then, material from producers & community members is restricted to previously publicly-provided material.

Well, if it's unethical to spank it to some church's pie throwing contest, then it's equally unethical to spank it to THE GREAT RACE. Unless you believe Natalie Wood's true intent in making a mainstream slapstick comedy was to generate a million boners.

In fairness, I think the current discussion concerns the ethics of posting, not the ethics of wanking.

I'd have been dragged to the chair by 14.

And it sure worked, didn't it! :lovestruck:

Norman

Some of what has been said in this thread is why I feel charity and WAM shouldn't really be intertwined.

There is a lot to be said about YouTube, trolls, keyboard warriors, sociopaths, people with far too much time on their hands and no life outside of the internet.... I just can't get further than sitting shaking my head and thinking, all you can really do is what you think is right and stand by it.

Jessie xx
www.messy-jessie.com

and i hate that, jess. because this has become the only full time job i can do being a single mom living in a town with no family here except for my bestie ariel. My son and I save money in a jar every month and give whatever we can to charity every month.
and we have done charity videos that i took a HUGE chunk of my own money to pay the girls, make the 60 REAL PIES and huge buckets of slime and it ended up being quite successful thanks to another umd member who had his company double what we had made to give to this charity.
we were given a shit ton of grief over it as well, and the video is STELLAR. sooooo much mess, it is insane! and all out of pocket and given to charity. but, i do see why people get leery of it because there are so many people who are scammerific who just put up it is going to "such and such" cause and in fact, it does not. i hate it because it is a way i can still give by doing something i love. sorry, this was not on the same subject as what yall were talking about.....

I know, it's really frustrating. Money can be made for great causes but the fact it has sexual connotation makes is a big grey area. I'd rather not touch it with a barge pole. I did the IDAFJ video, but I didn't charge for it or earned any subsequent monies from it. I wouldn't feel right about that. There are other factors involved too.... I don't mind if someone comes across that vid and find it arousing. I just hope that doesn't taint the fact it's for charity in some way.

Yeah, sorry for going off topic!

Jessie xx
www.messy-jessie.com

I understand where you are coming from on that one. When we did a Joe's Fund video we intentionally didn't put a name or any reference to us on it so people wouldn't trace it back to here. To me, doing so would take away from the cause it was made for

To me, there's nothing unethical about letting more people who'd enjoy a video see the video. Yes, some of the people watching might go on to harass the people involved, but I don't see why the decent people in the community should be blamed for that. Generally speaking, nobody posts finds with the intent of allowing the people involved to become victims, nor do they condone any attacks that are made.

My solution would be more vigilance from everyone in dealing with the creeps. Members can do their part by alerting the moderators on whatever community they're on when abuse happens. Moderators and admins can do their part by responding to reports they receive on their communities and dealing with any abuse they find. Victims can do their part by blocking and reporting the creeps.

It's really saddening that the actions of a few harmful individuals have come to define not just this particular community, but the WAM community as a whole, to outsiders. The best thing that we can do is make it clear we're not all a bunch of sick perverts. Topics like this one are a good starting point, but the best thing we can do is just be WAMmers and not be jerks. Prove we're decent people, wrest the perception of WAM in the public eye from the creeps and possibly open a few minds in the process!

In short, there's nothing wrong with posting finds. There's everything wrong with letting the worst of us define us.

Counterpoint: How will vigilance help outside of this one forum? AntDX has posted creepy, perverted comments on YouTube for YEARS... We can downvote them all we want, but YT isn't going to remove his profile just for downvotes. (Also, have you ever tried to contact a live human being at YT? It is IMPOSSIBLE.)
RunninRebel was harassing 200+ celebrities a day with his WAM-specific tweets. He was called out on a different forum... Promised to stop and seek help... Then was right back at it a week later. He's left this forum (for now) but he's STILL out there on Twitter, destroying the reputation of the community one tweet at a time. Who do we report him to? Twitter???

As for the victims... Yes, it would be great if a cute girl posts an innocent pie video, gets immediately harassed by a couple bad eggs, and goes, "Oh, I'll simply block his comment and carry on as though nothing happened." But the reality is, she gets FREAKED OUT. She pulls the video. And she doesn't post anything else.

And you can't convince someone that the "creepy perverted dude who likes mess" is an anomaly... And the majority of the people (on the sexually explicit forum devoted to mess) are suuuuuuper nice. This is already a weird WEIRD fetish for 99% of the population to wrap their heads around. Add "creepy pervert" to the mix and you're done.

Anyway, we let Scumbag Chris scam people on the UMD for TWO years. People like Noise alerted moderators and posted publicly... And were shamed for it. AntDX is posting his pervy shit on multiple threads as we speak, and he ain't getting blocked anytime soon. (Unless he reposts a picture of CSJ's penis.) The community can barely police the creeps in our OWN midst... Much less out there in the big bad Internet.

I do the same kinds of daily searches on youtube I think most of us do. So I'm not going to be missing anything just because it's not posted here.

What really burns me is the ethically repugnant act of asking girls to perform "pie dares" or any other kinds of WAM-related dares. The girls think it's just something silly while the guy's whacking off.

If you're one of those guys, you need some very serious psychological counseling.

Absolutely.


Oh, don't worry - I know I'm being very idealistic!

I'm hardly saying that the reporting systems are perfect on YouTube or Twitter, but they are at least there. If enough people report them (including the actual victim) then they have to take a look.

If that doesn't work, then alternative means need to be taken to show that this takes place. For instance, documenting and publicising the abuse. That would show the outside world that not all of us are like them, and those of us who aren't do not condone their methods. It also shows that the reporting system is broken on YT and Twitter, hopefully spurning them into reforming it.




While it sucks when that happens, it doesn't happen every time. It would happen less if the victim reported the abuse too, otherwise the system is even more broken than we've made apparent... in which case I refer you to my idea of making the world aware of that through documentation.




We don't have to bring UMD or any other site into abuse that happens in spaces that aren't WAM-specific.




Again, that's a problem with the moderation on UMD specifically. Outside of UMD, we're doing fine in taking down what few idiots we have.

I'll say it again - I do know that I am being idealistic, probably to the point of naiveté. However, if we're truly bothered about ethics, I think we should be thinking bigger and not letting the worst of us ruin the fun of the best of us.

I don't really have the patience or the attention span to read through this entire thread (so many words...). But I know I do not favor somehow regulating the posting of found content. If something is posted on the web, it's free game in my opinion (even if a small minority of our group are creepy weirdos).

Mainstream WAM is my favourite kind and thus the morality of it is a subject I find myself thinking about a lot, so this will turn into a wall o' text. I make no apologies. If you don't care, don't read.

Is sharing and wanking over mainstream pics and clips of women getting messy creepy? The answer is a definitive yes, in the sense that if the people in question were to find out this was the case, they'd be creeped out. However, this isn't something limited to WAM. I have a foot fetish (as indeed do many men) and thus if a picture or a clip appears of an attractive barefoot woman online, the chances are high that someone's spanked the monkey over it. There are long-hair fetishists out there, smoking fetishists, balloon fetishists. Hell, we've recently discovered wristwatch fetishes on this very forum. To truly avoid doing something that might be sexualised to someone, somewhere, women (and indeed men) would have to avoid doing anything, ever.

I think it's clear that the line is crossed when someone acts or makes women aware of what's going on. Social media has been a fantastic development for finding mainstream WAM but it's also given the truly creepy individuals a tool to contact the people featured in those finds which I find troubling. People have mentioned youtube comments in this regard but Twitter has been uniquely bad for this.

There are two types of 'offender' on twitter: those beyond help and those who should know better. In the former category I'd put fools like RunninRebel and Jake Samon/JakeHammond. Jake will spend hour after hour, day after day bombarding women on twitter with requests to 'get gunge' or 'get gunge in jeans'. He's obviously a few litres of gunge short of a gunk dunk but unfortunately as he isn't really breaking any of twitter's terms of service, there isn't much we can do about it other than hope he doesn't do too much damage. No amount of self-righteous forum posts or gentlemen's agreements will get through to these no-hopers.

Those who should know better, on the other hand piss me off. There are WAM fetishists who seem to think that if someone even mentions gunge in an offhand way, they are therefore fair game to talk to and engage with as if Twitter was an extension of the UMD. Just because a woman mentions in a post that she used to love 'Get Your Own Back' doesn't mean that an obviously fetish related account should start replying.

No matter how nonchalant your reply, if your account is full of explicit material and fetish related stuff then you'll be found out as soon as they click on the stranger's name who's just contacted them. I've even seen WAM producers and forum owners do this, and there are at least two pretty active accounts which are obviously run by men pretending to be women as a pretext to contact women about getting messy. I've seen WAM fetishist twitter accounts contact or retweet schools' twitter pages.

At best it's cringe-worthy and at worst potentially damaging. It's nasty because these women could get pretty distressed by this and if a colleague or friend saw the posts it could land them in trouble. I remember a while back someone on Tellygunge arguing that not posting the full name of a woman who'd been gunged for a tiny radio station was 'censorship' until somebody else pointed out that having her name appear in a google search for a fetish website might not go down well.There's no excuse for this, and if your view is 'on the internet it's fair game' then congratulations in actively making the world a worse place.

What's the upshot of all this? Well I agree with the broad thrust of the OP. There's several clips and pics I've found that I haven't seen posted anywhere and I'm not going to share them because participant's full names are identifiable and a not insignificant portion of the WAM 'community' can't be trusted not to try and contact them. I think TV shows are fine but social media is where I draw the line. Sure, the true 'creeps' will probably find them anyway but that doesn't excuse us being a part of the problem.

Good post, can't argue with any of that

From memory, most of the YouTube links posted on this forum are usually from television and films as opposed to videos made by Joe Public for their "fans" unless they're a member of the UMD.

In terms of ethics and a general ruling from the mods - I think the answer is think before you post.

Now I'm really curious. I would think that creeps and weirdos are present in every fetish, so do other fetishes suffer from the same problem?

Long hair fetish?
Jeans fetish?
Balloon fetish?

Are there creepy comments on youtube videos of hot moms with long hair in jeans in a birthday party with balloons?

I have a female friend with very long hair, which she likes to take pictures of. She's forever having to block what she calls "hair pervs" from her on-line social network photo galleries. Creepy comments, posting the URL's of images into fetish forums, that kind of thing. So yes, it probably does happen regardless of fetish.

First off if I'm completely off base just ignore this post. I've just been thinking of something while reading this post and SStuff's post in particular.

There is one way to limit membership. MM could close open membership. Only way to join is by referral by an existing member that has to be looked over by a mod. If the new member proves to be a troll or a scammer the person who refers them is banned as well. Also Mods should have the ability to have timestamps on when specific users read posts (Not sure if that is even feasible). I just say that if only 5 people read a post about an YT pie alert and within ten minutes a creepy message is posted on YT and say four of them are respectable members of the forum Jilly, Ariel, Happy Camper and Regis, and the fifth is say AntDX (Just throwing a name out there), that guy should have a look thrown his way.

You'd weed out a lot of creeps that way. Granted the idea probably isn't practical let alone ideal, but the whole closed membership with invites only system has worked for a lot of sites in the past (Demonoid comes to mind). I dunno maybe something to mull over.

And with people like Chris who I must admit I hope chokes on his soup, is there anyway to match IP's to users, and accounts with multiple IP's (IP masking software) and IP's of known offenders will be banned? I have minimal tech knowledge so If that's not a thing that ignore my nonsense.

SO yeah not sure if any of what I said makes sense is practical, or is even in the realm of possibility, but just spit balling. These creeps need to be weeded out.