Sometimes I feel that the WAM fetish (specifically pie fetish for me) is some small, obscure fetish, existing along the fringes of society, that not a lot of people know about or understand. Maybe I feel this way because I go back to the early-1990's before WAM exploded on the internet. Maybe in some ways my mind is still stuck in that era. But sometimes I think about all the WAM material that is being produced now (and over the years)... There is a lot! And I think about all the women that have been pied, slimed, etc. over the years, and I wonder if this fetish is bigger than we (I) think it is. I wonder what percentage of the population has heard of WAM (or enjoys it), and is it more than we think?

I don't know if that's true,given the current famine of mainstream mess in North America.

I think there are lots of people who have a latent wam fetish. There seems to be a few models who were first introduced to wam by a partner, or by being hired for a shoot by a producer, who then discovered they really enjoyed and were turned on by getting messy, and who then went on to explore and develop their wam kink further.

I would guess 1,000-5,000 worldwide at the very most. Given the planet has somewhere nearly 7 billion people, it's a pretty small percentage.

This forum, which is the most active in the community by far, might have a hundred or so active posters. I'm sure others lurk, but not tens of thousands or something. While there are probably accounts registered here in the tens of thousands, if not far more, how many are active? How many are sockpuppet accounts like the ones Jessie made or how many are previous accounts posters had and re-registered over the years?

Also, ask a producer what a great, not good but great, number for a video sale is. My guess, around a 100. If a video really connects and is done well, maybe 100 buys.

So, my guess is: we're not a bigger fetish than we think we are, probably smaller. Small but very vocal, we're (upsettingly in many cases) all over comment sections for youtube, one or two absolutely sociopaths harassing celebrities on twitter and such.... but still, overall number, not so many.

Even for non-WAMers, it seems like there is often a subtle erotic aspect to mess. Mud wrestling seems to be an example. Sex is tactile, so having food speared on your body seems to connect to that.

I think most non-WAMers would find this video at least mildly erotic. The people who made the video probably aren't "WAMers", but the message is clear: Hot girls smearing each other with cupcakes is "tasty" in more than one sense:

https://youtu.be/qiCSAxglIgk

No.

It's a secondary turn-on for a lot of people - things like foam parties, wet t-shirt contests, mud wrestling and coleslaw wrestling are pretty mainstream in straight culture. Non-wammers still find wetlook hot, you often see magazine covers where a female or male model has posed wet (either topless or in a bikini or shirt). But it's very much an aesthetic thing and added extra for the majority of people, not a hard-wired primary turn-on as it is for us. And there's a huge difference between some foam party or female mud-wrestling event in a bar, and the pieing and sliming that we're into. Ordinary people aren't into gunge or pies at all, it's seen as entirely non-sexual, or else it wouldn't be used in charity events and children's entertainment.

So, yes and no. Hard-wired wammers are rare, but there's a certain mainstream "wam-lite" that a lot of ordinary folks find arousing for aesthetic reasons (ie. you can see someone's boobs or abs better under a wet t-shirt) rather than kink reasons (the humilitation/submission/dominance aspect).

1,000 out of 7 billion? No. That's too low, that's patently absurd. There'll be at least 1,000 chimp-in-a-tutu-wearing-a-bowler-hat-reading-erotic-stories-in-Swahili fetishists out of 7 billion, by way of example. Just an example, you understand. No personal significance whatsoever.

Don't mock my fetishes.

No. Unfortunately and fortunately not.

Yeah....I miss those tea commercials made by PG Tips in the 1970's too....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLwTIiPdI3Y

1000 wam fans is an understated number (Rob Blaine had 7000 customers on his Messy Fun customer lists in the 1990's, and I had 5000 people in my wamtec club in the 1990's as well). Today in 2018 a more accurate worldwide wam fan population is around 30,000 to 35,000 (based on the number of people registered at this forum and Nigel's wetlook forum). That number is still very tiny....i.e. 0.0005% of the world population.....compare that to stats on how many people live a gay lifestyle per country...i.e. 6-9%....and how many people live the traditional fetish lifestyle of bondage and non-mainstream sex lives. Look at how many gay pride parades and major S&M/bondage conventions there are in major cities around the world. It will be another 1000 years before you will see wam fans having their own float at the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade.

But at least UMD had their own convention recently.

That's one of the sharper observations I've seen in a while on where WAM fits into the scheme of things.

Yes, but no.

If it sheds any light, we get 13,000 different individuals visiting each day. https://umd.net/about_us#site_stats

Which is impressive, but likely a drop in the bucket compared to most fetish sites.

Good Lord! Does each fetish site come with its own Regis?!

This is a curious bit for me. I wonder if a lot of visitors are those who would be considered 'active' wammers or those who just have an itch that needs a scratch.

Personally, I've had VERY few instances where I could act on this particular bent of mine, and those times were always played for laughs (Which is how I prefer it anyway, but I digress...).

Further, I've known that I've had this particular streak in me from a very young age, but anything fetish related is inherently difficult to bring up in conversation, even after a few drinks and people start talking about their various escapades. It's fringe. I acknowledge that. I don't shy from it now that I'm in my 30's. Thankfully, there's healthy outlets for it, and I consume the material that I like, and ignore the stuff I don't. I highly doubt I will ever meet someone in 'real life' who, like me, thinks that seeing funny and attractive women take a pie in the face turns a certain crank for them. Whether I acknowledge it or not, it's just a part of me.

I apologize for the sorta rambling nature of the post.

I think if you define the WAM fetish as simply people getting wet and messy during sex, the percentage of people worldwide is probably kinda small. However, if you expand the definition of WAM to include people into humiliation, submission, and dominance, the percentage grows quite a bit.

In terms of people who are consciously turned on by WAM, I think it's a really, really niche fetish. But I also believe almost anyone who tried WAM would enjoy it on a purely tactile level. Add in psychological elements like power play, humiliation, and general naughtiness and there's a pretty wide appeal. If it were more mainstream, I'm sure lots of people would try it and enjoy it immensely.

13 thousand seems about right on the money. Broken down into the 100s of sub genres as we are, what each of us actually is, is a statistical anomaly. My estimation is that about 150 people in the world are into the exact same shit as me.

And thats totaly fine. Who wants to be like everybody else.

NOPE, just this lucky bunch!

Thanks for all the responses. I was hoping for different answers though, indicating that we aren't so odd, but I guess we are. I just thought that maybe over the years wam models would talk to their other girlfriend wam models (between pillow fights and trading lingerie) and discuss getting pied. And then their friends would tell their friends and boyfriends... and then boyfriends would talk about it with their friends, and so on and so on... and knowledge about the wam fetish would grow organically within the consciousness of humanity...

Sorry, but have you just said that being gay is a kink? Because you've just compared it to S&M and that's not on. Being gay is not a lifestyle choice.

Maybe for those really generalised forums with a hundred sub-forums, but I'll bet it's not for a focussed fetish sites.

Even then, maybe it's up there. 13,000 uniques per day is going to be in the millions per month.

I think it depends on the definition. If Preacher's definition of WAM during sex is correct, then the group is probably small.

But if the definition is of one being turned on by WAM I submit that the population is larger. Take wet look as an example. When we were in our teens and early twenties how many parties held near a pool did not have guys throwing girls into the pool? They would not have done that if they were not turned on by the action.

The Great Race is a mainstream movie that came out when I was eleven. Natalie Wood had two great scenes in the movie. Before the pie fight scene there was one of her bathing in her corset. Seeing her emerge from the water in that wet garment was great. Here is a link to the scene where she emerges a little after the two minute mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W9vhUjE1CI

That scene and the pie fight scene are some of my first memories of that feeling males get when they hit puberty. Just something so sexy about wet clothes and seeing a beautiful woman destroyed by pies or in a food fight.

If one looks back on the fifties, sixties, seventies and even later we had classic scenes like Ann-Margaret's in Tommy. Most televised comedies had a food fight in at least one episode. If WAM was not popular there would not have been as much content as there was.

Most humans are turned on by the opposite sex. Men are stimulated by visual cues more than women. Wet clothing clings to the body and shows off their curves. Mess also tends to weigh the clothing down and emphasize the female form as well. So my theory is that most males are turned on by the site of WAM but do not come to the community.

I am an example of this. I did not start looking for sites like UMD till after I had discovered Rob Blaine's work through an ad in Playboy. Had I missed that ad I might never have joined the UMD. How many other males are turned on by the site of a woman being drenched or in a food fight / messy situation but never seek out material on it? Maybe because they don't think there is a community that sort of functions as a secret society. How many of us mention this fetish at work? And can you imagine the uproar if UMD were to advertise on YouTube? Imagine the ad attached to The Great Race's pie fight that said something like "Hey guys and gals, like what you saw here. Join our community and see pie fights galore!" I cannot imagine it flying.

I don't think any offence (or that reading) was intended. That said, research suggests at most 3% of people are exclusively gay, so 6-9% is too high - goes back to the old Kinsey claim that 10% of people are gay which has since been thoroughly debunked.

I think the lines between fetish and sexual orientation are finer than a lot of people realise anyway. I remember being aroused by WAM on TV as a kid long before I knew I was gay. And a lot of adult gay men have a very fetishistic approach to their sexuality, by which I mean they're into a very specific type of man or a very specific activity and nothing else; the activity trumps the person. Conversely, there are wammers both gay and straight who aren't interested in sex and don't have it at all (or only rarely) because WAM is their primary erotic drive - an exclusive paraphilia. The difference between a fetish and a sexual orientation is really a semantic issue which comes down to the fact we generally use the word 'kink"/'fetish' far too lightly, when really we're talking about a primary orientation that's deeply hardwired from early childhood.

You are correct. The LGBT figures of 6% to 9% are only for the top 25 cities in the USA, where the stat is 6% to 15.4%. The national average for the LGBT community in the USA is 4.1% Where I live in Central Florida it is 7.7%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States

As you correctly mention, being gay is not a lifestyle choice, which makes it a perfect comparison to the wam culture because being a wam fetishist is not a lifestyle choice either.....because I have been stuck with the wam "curse" all my life and if I had a choice to opt out of being a wam fan and instead been a mainstream person I would gladly have done so decades ago. But the fact that the wam fetish is something you are stuck with means that you have no choice (apart from a lobotomy) but to live with the way you were born.

There are a few decent points/accurate observations in this thread (not counting Rich's rather cheeky "No." [ala Mel Brook's 'Silent Movie'])....but, in my opinion (based upon years of research) a LOT notions here that are off-the mark by a long shot (Enigmahood and Meat Hook being prime examples -- sorry guys)...

...Mark of WamTec has a good grasp of the wide appeal of wam (in all its varieties). his point about gay pride parades may have been awkwardly expressed but every gay pride parade I've seen has featured some type of wam activity on at least one float (one year there were three wam floats -- oil, water and whipped cream!).

...and, I think the poster calling himself Old Man comes the closest to capturing the reality of the long-standing mainstream taste for messy erotica and salirophilia/mania. (thanks for posting; now I can avoid listing many of the cultural/iconic messy moments on TV and in Cinema).

First: Pie Cub: your claims that

1] "the old Kinsey claim that 10% of people are gay which has since been thoroughly debunked"
is FALSE (show me the study that debunks this as "too high"). Kensey's estimation has NOT (NEVER) been "debunked". No one actually knows how many homosexuals there are (as a percentage of the global population; note it is still taboo in many nations in the world and I guessing most will not publicly admit they are gay))...but numbers vary greatly depending upon city and location. Plus, many people are bisexual at some point in their lives...but, apart from that, the Kensey estimate is generally considered roughly accurate (still) if slightly conservative (thus, probably more) by many sociologists. But, I will concede that I am wrong if someone can show me

2] "The difference between a fetish and a sexual orientation is really a semantic issue" - I do not doubt that many confuse fetishism and sexual orientation...but the actual difference between the two is NOT a matter of semantics (their semantic meanings are clearly distinct). I don't know where this thought came from.

3] AS for the notion that "it wouldn't be used in charity events and children's entertainment." Well, this only reflects the duality (or dual nature) of fetishism...which tends to hide in plain site (consider how many movies feature Hollywood stars and starlettes of yesteryear smoking cigarettes....which is a serious fetish [it used to be taboo and forbidden for women to smoke; probably due to its obvious oral connotations])....as for pies, consider the WWE and its 'Diva Search' that was aired several years back (over two seasons I think)...8 gorgeous women in sexy "wrestling' attire get cream pied on air and in front of a live stadium audience (composed of Dad's and Mom's with their young kids)....to the great cheering of the fans (and one Diva immediately smearing the cream from the pie all over her front and breasts (She was one of the two who got chosen as Divas, btw)...many other examples.

My point is that fetishism (or fetishistic imagery) "hides in plain site" due to the nature of the human mind (and sexual repression in societies, etc.)....and mass visual media promulgates these images to the masses...Also: salirophilia/mania is VERY common (at is largely responsible for the success and popularity of slapstick cinema in its heyday)...consider Ellen's new (now cancelled ?) game show which features many messy "punishments" that are funny and humiliating.

People LOVE to see snobby people, authoritarian people and beautiful people get dirty, messy, wet, muddy and humiliated...it's as old as the pillories of Puritan New England.

There is a Disney (or Nick) channel show called 'Bunkd' or Bunked' (oddly enough) in which the very cute blond girl has to swing on a rope across a mud pit...she is set up by her rival to slip off he rope and falls face first into the thick mud (may be a stunt double) and emerges with her face and body plastered with mud. Her boy crush tries to wipe her face with a cloth, and the other female actress (the older teen counselor/physical comedienne of the cast) says something like "A pretty girl covered in mud -- no WAY he'll find that attractive!" (audience laughs knowingly) Thus is a "kids show"!!!

AS for the popularity of a good wam video being limited to 100 sales, I completely challenge this. Not counting the unknown number (how could I?) of pirated copies, my Tabitha video has sold to date over 500 copies (that's physical tapes/dvds AND downloads)...my other earlier slapstick videos all sold over 300 copies, with Splat!TV selling nearly 400 units (and that's all four segments; it is broken up into smaller segments)....again, there's probably at least one pirated copy for every one I sold.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but wam -- in all it's aspects/forms (including salirophilia.mania) -- is common throughout the world....how many have a "hard-wired" wam fetish? That is unknowable (especially given the sexually repressed nature of Christian and Muslim societies)....but it's definitely more than you imagine.

I think the number of "hardcore" people like us who self-WAM and stuff like that is pretty low. I saw "secondary fetish" mentioned and I think that's more common. I think many people don't find it a turn-off but most people don't see someone messy and go "OMG that's so hot!".


Sarah Shahi is a pretty famous actress.

https://twitter.com/sarahshahi/status/469218856221671424
https://twitter.com/sarahshahi/status/644671314331082752

In that second one, she even replied to a tweet that calls it a "pie fetish". Then again the first tweet says it's only her 4th time.

These days there is a lot of mis-use of the word fetish. The dictionary definition says that a fetish is the worshipping of an object or sexual activity in order to achieve orgasm and defacto a true fetishist is somebody who is unable to achieve orgasm unless they are worshipping their preferred sexual interest. The word fetish is often mis-used instead of the word "like"....i.e. it was often written that Elvis had a fetish for peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, and often it is said that women have a fetish for chocolate....but those are not fetishes because those people are capable of reaching orgasm without those items being in play. I am pretty sure that Sarah Shahi is not a fetishist....but just has a fondness for pies or playful games.

I am no psychologist, but I think the wam culture has "fetishists" and "hobbyists"...i.e. hardcore fetishists are people who cannot live a normal sex life without wam being involved, and the hobbyists have a more "take it or leave it" approach and they can engage in wam for a bit of fun but are perfectly capable of setting it aside and leading a traditional sex life without wam being involved. I have no idea what percentage of wam fans are wam fetishists vs wam hobbyists. All I can say is over the last 27 years I have chatted with some 6000+ wam fans and hired over 500 models, and that the majority of wam fans I have met are fetishists and the majority of models and female wam fans I have met were either entrepreneurs or hobbyists (i,e. models who provide wam services to producers and customers, and accomodating spouses and partners who enjoyed spicing up their hubby's wam interests),

The hardcore fetishist vs hobbyist phenomena can also be applied to the S&M/Bondage world as well.....i.e. in the S&M/Bondage culture I think the majority of folks are hobbyists....e.g.. cosplayers and posers who enjoy dressing up and partying with their friends and they are not dependent upon bondage games to achieve orgasm.....and thankfully there are only a small minority of hardcore bondage fetishists who cannot achieve orgasm without indulging in extreme elements...there is evidence of those violent traits in many serial killers.

Thankfully the wam culture is a harmless one.....as opposed to the dangerous fetish of Autoerotica that took the lives of actor David Carradine and singer Michael Hutchence.

Huh...here I've been using the term "paraphilia" incorrectly. Thinking it was the preference but not need for certain things to achieve orgasm. Strictly speaking for me it's not a pure fetish. I don't NEED WAM, but it certainly makes things magnitudes hotter.