So, my key criticism of this guy is that he's intellectually lazy by his own admission, and that he covers his laziness and tunnel-vision with deflection and civility. The same pattern is exactly what you see in his posting above. Instead of tackling issues head on with sources and verifiable information, like an ordinary human being with sincere beliefs, evidence, and an axe to grind, he approaches things sideways. So, it's all about Biden -- a total non-entity, who basically nobody outside of the party hacks in DC cares about. (Which is an asset, as it turns out, since -- unlike Trump or Clinton -- they don't hate him, either. But this is a digression.)

If we are having a rational conversation, we have to start with the state of your nation. That means talking about the ongoing actual death toll that has surpassed Vietnam. It means a President, widely and cartoonishly but correctly understood to be on the psychopathic spectrum, who started this year by declaring a de facto war on Iran through targeted assassination. It means talking about a leader who defunds, silences and mismanages the response to the deaths of scores of human beings, and whose only memorable policy position was to muse aloud about the benefits of injecting sunlight and bleach into your veins. If a person's position doesn't begin with the premise that Trump is a vile maniac, they are nowhere near a political moderate.


Now, as a matter of honor, I do feel that I should make something clear about my allegations against Professor Gedankenexperimente. I said he was a few steps *ABOVE* a *MINOR* Stephen King villain. Those are important qualifications. And -- to be sure, by 'above', I mean 'better than'.

I hoped to clarify that point in my subsequent post, when I referred to Harold Lauder from The Stand (attached). It's important to be precise when we're doing science.

Yet a couple more thoughts for our beloved Enigmahood:

You may see all the good and the bad of each side, as you dubiously claim, but you completely revel in detailing what you see as the bad of the left, and you sweep the bad of Trump almost completely under the carpet while championing what you see as his good stuff. So your self-proclaimed fair and balanced viewpoint is actually anything but. (I'm not claiming to have a fair and balanced viewpoint myself, BUT YOU ARE, so you deserve to be challenged on this front.)

It's clear that you're a little uneasy with some of Trump's race relations -- when I brought up Charlottesville you begged off with "I'm not trying to defend Trump in any way," even though you'd clearly been defending him throughout this thread up to that point. You CLAIM to grant that Trump has many faults but you deny every one of them we throw at you and then insist that all us anti-Trumpers agree to a long laundry lists of faults YOU find in Biden -- but seriously where in this whole fucking monstrous three-page thread have you ever admitted anything specifically wrong that Trump has done, Enigma? You lamented the fact that he tweets too much. That's ALL you've ever taken him to task on at all, as far as any of us have seen. If you really consider yourself a "mild Trump supporter" and think this is a "fair and balanced" assessment of the Trump Presidency, then I think it's a totally fair and balanced thing to say you really are damaged in the head and living in a deranged rightwing bubble. I suspect (and certainly hope) you know the hypocrisy of your stance, in which case you're not damaged in the head, you're just a good old hypocrite. Because in any event, you certainly do not remotely practice what you preach when it comes to "telling it like it is with both parties." And yet you insist that the rest of us follow this maxim that you tout ever so loudly while utterly failing to live up to it yourself. Nice work if you can get it!

Even a majority of Repbulicans think Trump fucked up on COVID and he fucked up on the BLM protests (according to polling). You either cannot or will not admit he failed in either case, or in any other case at all, except with the tweeting, so you're really selling yourself short when you say: "I mildly support Trump." You're clearly a full-bore Trumpaholic, carrying his banner into the field of battle. Here's hoping both you and he get crushed under the Churning Wheel of Progress come November.

And by the way, in the community I live in, people are openly and freely critical of many things about Trump. It's not at all something people can only talk about anonymously on the Internet, as you claimed earlier. Here, it's the Trump supporters who keep their political feelings to themselves and if they unleash at all, it's in the privacy of their own homes or online. So I wouldn't get too smug about the kind of anti-Trump sentiment you're seeing in this thread only happening online and in the media. There are an awful lot of American communities out there, and I think a lot of them are more similar to mine re:Trump than you have any clue about (from mid 2017 through the present day, multiple polls have found that a majority of Americans think Trump is a racist, for example). Of course, I know there are plenty of communities like yours too, where it sounds like things are more or less the opposite. Viva la difference, I guess?

Actually, he's polling decently with black males*, he does horribly with black women. Republicans in general garner little of the black vote.

More blacks should vote for non-Democrats, if you ask me. Some of the worst cases of racism we're seeing right now, with institutionalized racist police, it's *ALL* in 100% democrat strongholds. Really not even some, it's all. All these horrible things going on with bad police departments, it's Blue zones. How many black people are getting shot in Chicago every weekend? It's a bad situation for sure.

I'm not really a big fan of Republicans, so I'm not sure them voting for them is any kind of answer. It might, if anything to send a message to the Democratic establishment that they need to stop pandering to black people and actually start doing positive things for that community. Some BLM leaders are talking about their own party and that might be a good alternative as well.

Back to Trump, my guess, with a media that says nothing but how racist he is, that never shows clips of Biden's horribly racist past or does segments on how his crime bill incarcerated millions of blacks, some people just believe what they hear.

I mean, if someone is Hispanic and wants to complain to me about how racist Trump is, they might have a good argument. Some of that Wall stuff he was pushing back in 2015-2016, the rhetoric he used, that stuff was pushing a line for sure (at the least, it was insensitive I think)... but black people? Trump hasn't done anything wrong there, has always had close black friends, has always worked closely with black celebrities, had gotten the Ellis Island Award with his friend Muhammad Ali back in the 80s and stuff... I don't really get it.

* wait, the current polls are predicting a Biden steamroll, much like they did in 2015-2016 for Hillary. So, who knows if they're that great to base much off of. In terms of voting, Trump actually did decently by Republican standards with the black vote, again better with men, less so with the female black voters.

No offense, and I realize you wrote a lot -- but you're missing the point.

I do not care to engage in a political debate about Trump vs. Biden, who is better than the other. If you care, I think Trump is merely Ok and I think Biden is Bad. That's it. Take it as you will and if you strongly disagree, I take no issue with your opinion.

My argument is THIS, which I've stated already: Anyone who wants to support Trump should be able to do it without being harassed or attacked. That's it. Trump isn't so bad, when compared to Biden, or Biden isn't so great when compared to Trump, that by not supporting Biden or supporting Trump someone is a monster or insane or wrong.

Here is my initial benign statement:
> I think Trump is okay, pretty decent, not a huge fan of some of his tweets but whatever. Pretty good guy and way better than these far leftists who are ruining so many big cities.

It was met with a lot of criticism and personal attacks. This was before my history was dug up and more attacks were made on a handful of jokes I made in 2016.

Let me refresh your memory:

>That whole post was sarcasm, right?

>I don't know what your malfunction is, but another 4 years of Trump and there will be no America.

>Tucker is a racist, and you're a piece of shit. Thanks for stopping by.

... shit like that.

In order for these comments to be warranted, Biden would have to be an Angel and Trump would have to be completely awful. The problem you have, even if Trump is problematic -- Biden still needs to be a significantly better alternative and one without his own terrible flaws. He's not. You all know it, too. Nobody really touches any of the factual things I've said about Biden. Let's list them again, shall we?

Before I do this, again let me be clear: I am not trying to suggest Biden is better or worse than Trump. I have my opinion but I am not trying to sway you or anyone else.

I am ONLY suggesting here that whatever gap is between the quality of both men is not significant enough that anyone who supports either man should be lambasted by anyone for their choice. Meaning Biden is not so great that supporting Trump makes you evil OR that even if Trump is truly awful, Biden is also deeply flawed enough that the distance between the two is not all that great.

Let's start at the beginning:

- Biden did not just vote for the War in Iraq, he held a key role in making sure that it was not properly vetted and would pass. This was a horrific mistake, one that cost in some estimates a loss of lives OVER 1,000,000. Biden was not the architect of this colossal foreign policy disaster but his hands are bloody for sure.

- Biden wants to support a revolution in Venezuela.

- Biden was part of the administration that overthrew Libya and sent that country into chaos, people are raped and burnt alive in the streets, Islamist extremists basically run it now, the country was destroyed.

- Biden wants to increase our presence in Afghanistan and opposed Trump's trying to wind that mess down.

- Biden supports overthrowing Assad in Syria, something that wouldn't just ruin Syria like we did in Iraq and Libya but would almost assuredly put us on the path of more wars, particularly with Russia. A lot of people don't get this, but Qatar and SA want an oil pipeline to run from them to Europe. That would need to go through Syria. Syria opposes it because their ally Russia is dependent on selling petro to Europe, this would hurt them. It's their own fucking land, so maybe for once Qatar and the Saudis can eat a dick, but Nope, let's just start a fucking war, ruin a country and get our pipeline so we make a few extra billion. Fuck all them brown people who die horribly and let's get our pals in the USA, like many Republicans and many Democrats like Joe Biden to sign up. /rant

- Biden's crime bill. Oh yeah, we didn't forget this. Here is a sad statistic, almost 70% of black families are single-parent. I wonder how much of that is because of RACIST crime bills that unfairly target blacks, that send black men to jail and their kids grow up without a father? Joe is PROUD of this one. "Predators on our Streets" he says, clearly implying young black men.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/03/05/joe-biden-tough-on-crime-speech.cnn

... his own son skates for hard drug use in the Navy, cocaine, but how many black men went to jail for years for the same drug or less?

- Biden is clearly pre-dementia or worse.

... So, again, vote for this guy. Especially if you hold your nose and vote for him just because you think Trump is more dangerous or worse, More power to you... but even if we accept everything about Trump as bad as you say it is -- even then, Biden is likewise awful enough that at best we are dealing with two completely terrible candidates and if supporting Trump makes someone a nut, then anyone who also supports Biden is also a nut and the only sane option is to write in a candidate, vote for Jill Stein again, whatever goofball Libertarian they put up or something other than either man.

If someone wants to attack me or anyone for supporting Trump but also thinks it's just as bad to support Biden, well you're consistent and I have no problem with that but don't tell me either of these guys is so bad that you can not openly support the other.

I didn't "miss your point" so much as step around it, as I would step around a steaming pile of warm dogshit. You yourself similarly "missed" most of our points about Trump, a candidate you know say you "only sort of support." You have made endless efforts to shift the direction of this conversation to your own agenda so that you can keep on listing off your list of grievances with Biden (unsupported by any presentation of facts whatseover, just your raw naked opinions). And you hilariously do this while claiming to be the only "fair and balanced" guy at this debate beyond PotatoMan, all the while almost completely failing to acknowledge any of Trump's Many and Varied Failings. We've laid them out for you a lot, I'll admit, and we probably will keep doing so until you acknowledge them. It's only fair payback given your rigorous insistance that Everyone Must Acknowledge Trump and Biden As Deeply Flawed Candidates. (Who's telling people what to think now? A mysterious little yellow dog.) You are so far from fair and balanced it's ludicrous you would claim this mantle. You're clearly only resolute in not defending Trump when you he does shit you don't have the ability to defend. Your response has been to ignore 90% of the failings we've pointed out, and tackle the other 10% with well-crafted responses like, "Nah, I don't buy it. He's still way better than Biden."

I do have to give you credit on your second-to-last post: you conceded that Trump has one more minor flaw beyond excessive tweeting -- you actually admitted he was a little bit racist towards Hispanics with his Wall rhetoric during the campaign. Baby steps. To say Trump demonstrated a little smidgeon of racism toward Hispanics with his Wall Rhetoric of 2015-2016 is pretty hilarious, really -- as if it was only during the campaign that that whole idea has been offensive to Hispanics, and immigrants in general. I'll grant Trump's gotten slightly more subtle about it over the last 4 years, but his (never to be fulfilled) dream of The Wall is fueled on almost pure racism and the delusional thinking that it's a effective of use of many billions of dollars.

It's fine that you don't want to defend Trump. Let's please note that you DID in fact defend him up until the time the mounting list of offenses we placed at your feet were no longer defensible, and then you retreated into your tired list of Biden attacks, which you've given us over and over and over. And no, nobody's tackled them, and I wouldn't dream of tackling them til you provide us with actual proof of any of your allegations and not just stuff you pulled out of some fever dream you had when you fell asleep during a Tucker Carlson rant about immigrants destroying this country. Just as you refuse to genuinely grapple with almost any of Trump's thornier issues. You think "Yeah, Trump has some flaws too" is good enough to cover it. God forbid you'd actually acknowledge any of his deeply serious flaws; that level of scrutiny from you is reserved for Biden alone.

So, the following is me addressing the one of your points you backed up with some semblence of "facts."

I know you think we're all a groupthink mob, but get a fucking grip. The only person who told you to shut up and go away was diego, and now you're saying we ALL told you that. It's not anyone's job here to "protect" you and boy, I'm sorry if you got your feelings hurt by a few little shards of "uncivil discourse," but if ever anybody was asking to be laid into by lefties, it is most assuredly YOU.

>>>It was met with a lot of criticism and personal attacks. This was before my history was dug up and more attacks were made on a handful of jokes I made in 2016.

It wasn't exactly an archeological dig to find a couple of shards of pottery in 43,000 metric tons of soil. Two pieces were produced -- one by Nein, who clearly had it seared into his memory banks -- and that's a tiny fraction of what is out there from you. (Your remarks clearly stick in people's craws; I can dig up more of them on my own if needs be.)

You've made a LOT of offensive remarks, not just a handful of times in 2016, either, but a fairly steady string of them ever since, snickering little "uncivil" asides that you make here in which you treat leftists every bit as viciously as you have been treated here. Sometimes they were more than asides, they were outright attacks in threads that are nominally about WAM but you couldn't resist spewing your hateful politics into them.

Now, I guess you feel that's okay and dandy because you weren't (typically) attacking specific members, just unnamed leftists out in the world. But anyone who shared the beliefs that you were casually shitting all over may well have registered them as attacks anyway. And if they were as oversensitive as you are, they might have even felt they were being disallowed to express these opinions publicly. Yes, you read that right: YOU, Enigmahood, have become the delicate snowflake/crybaby calling for political correctness in this thread. Oh, the irony! What size T-shirt do you wear? I want to get you something with SJW bedazzled across the front to commemorate this moment.

Beyond diego, nobody else ever said or implied that you can't be open with your support of Trump -- it's just the other foot falling you can't take. If you aren't prepared to deal with the consequences of your actions, like people STRONGLY disagreeing with you and things getting verbally heated* then you maybe you should think a little harder before putting your own thoughts out there in "uncivil" terms. You only retreat into politeness and politically correct discourse in self-defensse AFTER you've been doing the opposite while baiting people on the left.

DO NOT try to characterize this as me telling you what to think or to just shut up and go away -- it's just that you seem kind of fragile and childlike in your naivety about the way political debates take place, and I'm just doing my best to prepare you for the realities of the world. Maybe...you know.. sometime try talking to an actual black person in a not-so-nice urban area about why you think Trump is really awesome for black families, and see how that goes for you? Maybe you can blab your liberal-trashing thoughts in your neighborhood or throughout your whole city and not get any blowback, but you are in for serious blowback with a LOT of Americans of every color and creed, when you tote that Trump Trash out in public.

*And you yourself got BOILING mad at diego. You worked yourself up into a fit of utterly childish lather that include posting a cartoon denigration of the guy. And yet somehow you're the one positing yourself as the beacon of maturity and adulthood here. Brain-boggling good times...

This is what I loath about these kinds of debates, I'd rather keep things simple and on-target, but they always spill out to minutia and get more and more.

Like, right now, do I bother to go back and point out that in 2016 I made a light-hearted Social Experimentation thread (something someone called trolling), joking about Hillary losing because she was so ahead in the polls? It's being used now to portray me as a sinister figure constantly plotting against liberals. Yet, the entire sub-question is really irrelevant.

All I care about it: What either makes Trump so bad or Biden so Good that it's acceptable that people go far beyond disagreement and into personal attacking and shaming that someone would support one over the other. And, we all know, it's only Biden supporters doing it so we can just go with that. If there are any Trump supporters who go beyond just disagreement with someone supporting Biden, other than laughter or deserved mockery, but into hate or personal attacks -- I disavow anyone doing that. People can support who they want.

That's it.

If you disagree with my premise, think most on the left are very open to MAGA people and fine with them supporting Trump or something, you can opt out. I certainly disagree, I don't see that (especially on social media or online forums where people get much braver).

Now, I'll just assume nobody is silly enough to actually try and argue Joe Biden as being great, so if you want to list all of Trump's faults, knock yourselves out, you just have to explain how they are exponentially worse than destroying black families, being culpable in possibly millions of dead brown people in several countries, wanting more wars and all the other things we know Joe Biden stands for or is responsible for.

"Keeping things simple and on target" means you want to control the agenda of this thread, which you didn't start and which you entered in PROTEST of the original poster's premise. Which is fine, of course, but as a consequence, at least as much as anyone else here YOU are the guy with whom the burden of proof lies in this discussion, and you have completely abdicated on that front. No proof of any of your allegations against Biden, no defense and barely any admission of any of Trump's flaws which you claim to be oh-so-aware of.

Enigmahood's essential mesage: I'm not here to defend Trump in any way, I just INSIST that liberals tear down Biden the same way that I claim to lambast Trump for his own flaws, when in reality I almost entirely refuse to acknowledge anything is wrong with my candidate of choice. I'll grant you a few crumbs only, without ever acknowledging Trump's deep history of racism, his problematic and prolonged non-response to the coronavirus, which helped further wreck America's economy, his remarkable mismanagement of the BLM protests, and his gross misuse of his presidential powers in an attempt to secure re-election.

Gee, thanks for being so "honest" with us about your man Trump, Enigma.

Your goal is to make this thread discuss exactly what you want to talk about and exclude nearly everything that is uncomfortable for you to talk about regarding Trump's presidency and fundamental character. Even though you keep claiming to go into this with your eyes wide open and portraying all this as if you and PotatoMan are the only fair and balanced people here.


I keep pointing this out and you keep conveniently ignoring it. You've talked a LOT of trash about liberals over the past four years, and it got under a number of people's skin. Nein mentioned that after that Hillary debacle he kept his eye on you and your forum behavior regarding politics has been consistent with that ever since. I noticed the same thing. You persistent insistence that it's only about one thread, but you know that is a lie, so you are operating in bad faith and intellectual dishonesty.

You have the courage of your convictions, you claim. If so... maybe ...you know.. sometime try talking to an actual black person in a not-so-nice urban area about why you think Trump is really awesome for black families, and see how that goes for you?

(I know you'll just ignore this question AGAIN, you wouldn't dare actually respond to it. But I have to keep asking.)

And maybe the greatest hits from your man, Tucker Carlson, deserve a re-run too (like you keep re-running Biden's flaws, except I'm presenting actual quotes from the man, which constitue evidence, unlike your shit-talk about Biden.) I've got a new one for you this time, though, and a bit more context for one of the remarks quote previously.

Up until very recently you were insisting Tucker is a thoughtful and interesting guy and not at all a racist. You demanded proof of his racism, and I provided it in spades. And in the wake of seeing quotes like the ones below, you were moved all the way into admitting that *maybe* he was the teensiest bit racist, but then shrugged it off with a "Who Knows?" with an implication the Corrupt Corporatist Media may have framed the guy.

To demonstrate to you he actually did say everything I listed in my first post (because you were too lazy to use a search engine and it looked better for you and Tucker if you DIDN'T confirm his racism), I'm adding a YouTube link where you can hear Tucker spew nearly all of that stuff I quoted, plus a lot more of it. Ladies and gentleman, Tucker Carlson in his own voice. Enjoy! (There's no video, because these remarks were done on a radio show.)

Keep in mind, everyone, that Enigmahood STILL isn't convinced -- or at least he hasn't come out and said he's convinced -- that Tucker Carlson is a racist asshole. All of this horrible shit just gave him a little pause for thought, but not so much as he'd actually label the guy a racist. That tells you an AWFUL LOT about Enigma's acuity on racism. And this from the guy who "calls 'em as he sees 'em, political party be damned." What a fucking joke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TjXAwAAjTY

I know you'll question my phrase "Trump's deep history of racism" so here's a little bit of actual evidence. (Something that's in mighty short supply in all of your allegations against Biden. Which doesn't mean some of them aren't true, it just indicates you don't actually CARE whether they are true or not, they are just rhetorical devices for you to use as a smokescreen so you don't have to deal with Trump's faults.)

Trump has no political record prior to 2015, sure, but look into his legal history and you'll see the state of New York has accused him of intensely racist practices in his real estate businesses going back as early as 1973. That instance involvoved a housing project in Brooklyn where his staff marked a large "C" on the applications of any African-Americaans and then uniformly them in literally every case. This information comes from Elyse Goldweber, a Justice Department lawyer who did some of the examinations for the case, including examinations of Trump himself. She also says that Trump told her during a break: "Let's face it, you don't want to live near them either."

Also, back in the 70s, he insisted that braille be removed from elevators in one of his NYC high-rises. When told that the braille was required by a city ordinance, he still insisted it be removed, proclaiming, "No blind people will ever live in this building." And it goes on and on and on and on from there... look into yourself if you don't believe me. But no, it's clear you don't care about Trump's past, only Biden's.

Ok, I see your point now.

Trump has some allegations against him in the 1970s. Clearly that's way more racist than calling black people "Predators in our streets", making a bill that unfairly incarcerated millions of black men since 1994, destroyed that many families, left countless black children without fathers.

In fact, those allegations against Trump are so bad that if anyone actually supports Trump over Biden, they are a lunatic. That is how bad those unproven allegations that Trump settled out of court were. I guess all those black men locked away aren't important in your book, all however many million of them, because they are NOTHING compared to those awful, horrible allegations made against Trump in a state even in this thread people point out are shake-down con artists run by the literal mob.

That is your argument, because that is what I clearly asked for. I don't fucking give two shits about some pissing contest about who is better or worse, I clearly said I want to know why Biden is either so much better or Trump is so much worse that Trump can not be reasonably supported.

And that was your come back, these allegations of racism, so that means you think these allegations are just that much worse than Biden's demonstrable history -- and we didn't even touch on the wars and body count from them.

You're not getting it:

- Your position is, Trump is so bad he can not be supported
- My position is this, both are flawed, support who you want

In order for me to hold more water, both guys have have checkered pasts and have major flaws, just so long as it's not one-sided, that it's only Trump with massive skeletons and Biden being mostly clean.

In order for you to hold more water, Trump has to be significantly worse.

If you honestly think these ALLEGATIONS mean more than actual lives destroyed, I think we're done here. You are off your rocker.

To anything else, don't care. You think whatever you want.

Now, back it up. What has Trump done that is so much worse than what Biden did to the black community or the worldwide community in the ME and elsewhere with his wars?

You claim to be so civilized and fair-minded, you say you entered this discussion so civilly and so politely and everyone proceeded to throw mud at you. And yet in your very first post you referred to the "awful awful Democrats."


Not remotely close to the polite, fair and balanced examination and civil tone you claim has been your point all along. And EVEN NOW, you still will not admit that you were flat out wrong about Tucker Carlson being a racist, and yet you attempt to don the mantle of being the fair and balanced one here.

You don't get to control the terms of this discussion and dictate what I have to say within it, no matter how much you cry and whine about being treated unfairly. I'd love to get you to address dozens of issues we've brought up against Trump (and to a lesser extent Carlson) that you have totally ignored or brushed off with a "Nah, I don't buy it," but I clearly never will. But I think you're exposing plenty about your lack of credibility on racial issues by refusing to get off the fence about Carlson and Trump (yeah, yeah, just endlessly deflect it onto Biden; what a convenient dumping ground he is for you). Likewise, feel free to go fuck yourself if you think you can somehow control what I am allowed to say and what I need to say in response to you.

If you want to know about being treated unfairly, I suggest you have a conversation with an African-American or a Hispanic who lives in one of those urban areas that Trump called "hell." Something tells me you've barely even ever spoken with a wealthy African-American, let alone a poor one.

> Enigmahood:They should vote in a Republican or Libertarian or Green or someone who might be less corrupt than these awful, awful Democrats.

I was clearly speaking of the corrupt Democrats in these blue strongholds like Chicago, not to every Democrat politician and certainly not to Democrats as a whole.

> You: Not remotely close to the polite, fair and balanced examination and civil tone you claim has been your point all along

It might not be overly polite but sometimes the truth isn't what people want to hear. As far as being far or balanced, you're going to have a difficult time convincing anyone that Chicago is run by overly upstanding individuals or that they're doing good by any community, least of them the black ones.

Is that not civil enough for you? How better should one couch the truth on this? Just ignore all the dead people being shot in Chicago like you do all the brown civilian casualties in Biden's many wars? That might be civil but it's also dishonest.

Thank you for your response, Enigmahood.

Your use of the usual conservative talking points (Antifa=Black Lives Matter=Thugs) and disgust with urban areas and 'blue zones' show that you have little to no empathy or understanding of Black people and their history in this country beyond stereotypical tropes. Biden's record on race is only a tool for you in this debate. Your contempt for us comes through loud and clear which makes your false concern and posturing all the more offensive.

When did I mention BLM? My only concern about them is one of their co-founders is a self-proclaimed Marxist and pro-Mao/Lenin. Lenin was better than Stalin at least, I guess.

Not a fan of Antifa.

I am not disgusted by urban areas, I just think they are corrupt and unjust, which they are. Unjust to black people for the wide majority. Not a fan of that at all, I don't like the idea of anyone being boned in life the second they're born, regardless of their color. Everyone should have a shot but people growing up in these blue zones have it stacked against them.

I love it how all you people just say, "Well you never said anything but THIS IS WHAT YOU THINK" extrapolating all kinds of nonsense. I mockingly did that with Piero about his racism, which actually there is a lot more meat to that joke made than anything you others do.

This is how small minded people work themselves up into a frenzy. You just fill in blanks with whatever you want things to be, and it's always Racism or some other Ism, and just make shit up to fit your narrow and generally stupid narrative.

How about this. How about you stop saying, "Well you said A, therefore B is true! B is bad! You are bad! You are a monster!" kind of bullshit. Think you can do that?

Because maybe, just fucking maybe, someone who thinks corrupt cities are bad - maybe they just don't like CORRUPTION and aren't always the racist haters you make them out to be.

How about you try doing that, Try actually having a debate. Try actually listening to someone. Try not always having to get the last word in or to always be right (in your own mind). You do that and you might stop playing stupid games where someone says they are not in favor of CORRUPTION and you take that to run on how they hate black people and are white supremacists or whatever other stupid shit you're going to make up to make yourself feel right and having 'won' this pointless stupid political debate.

How about it? Think you're up for it?

Btw, going through the thread, I think my only real mention of BLM was that at one point I mentioned a leader of that movement was suggesting more black people break off from the Democrats and form their own BLM party, a prospect I thought might not be a terrible idea and probably better than if they voted for Republicans.

THAT means I think they're thugs, does it?

If anyone cares, the guy talking about it was Hawk Newsome, who I generally really like. He said a couple things recently I don't like about the police but in the past I've really respected his approach and found him to be a guy worth paying attention to.

And, get this, just because he recently said something about the police I don't agree with -- I don't actually want to #Cancel him entirely. It's as if someone can say something I don't agree with and yet I still can form a good opinion of them.

Imagine that. Imagine a world where you don't rush to judge every single person by a single statement they make or by isolated incidents. A world where people can fuck up or make a mistake or even hold some positions you disagree with and yet you can still look at them as a whole and be okay or good with them.

Or, I think I will just imagine how many of the people in this thread are acting. The second I say something they don't want to hear, they ignore it or will twist it to some weird negative thing. Some of you guys have it in your mind, I am a "Conservative" so that means I'm bad or racist or whatever and you will take whatever mental steps necessary to make sure you keep seeing what you want to see.

Ignoring everything that doesn't suit your agenda. Let's ignore Biden's racism. Let's ignore Biden's war mongering. Let's ignore a conservative who is favorable to a BLM leader he respects. Let's ignore a conservative from a mixed-race family.

Erase all that and fill in the blanks with what you want to see? Pretty sad, folks. I'm sure those of you who are the worst offenders of this will be the ones who write out the 15 paragraph rebuttal getting upset about it, ignoring most of what I said, taking as much out of context as you can and jumping to more conclusions about me hating BLM, being a white nationalist, not caring about black people, blah blah whatever else.

Please note that I never called you a racist or a white supremacist or a white nationalist. That's all in your diseased brain. I know diego called you a racist; I'm not sure anyone else here actually has used any of those terms for you, but I certainly did not, and I don't think anyone else did either, even though that's how you perceive it. You're clearly pretty paranoid.

You aggressively presented your political opinions in your very first post in this thread: "these awful, awful Democrats... I can't wait to vote again for Trump against Joe Biden, that guy is just lost. Especially if he picks Kamala Harris as his VP, she is a terrible pick" and then you confessed you didn't bother to watch the video the original poster MADE THIS POST FOR, you prejudged it to be not worthwhile information and you defended this choice with these words: "I actually did not bother watching the link from the OP, but I do watch Tucker Carlson maybe once a week or so, so I have a pretty informed opinion."

You're allowed to express your opinion, but when you do it that arrogantly (and I'm talking about not watching the video because you were so well informed by Carlson as the arrogant part, NOT the choice of Trump) then you got some richly deserved blowback. Fucker Carlson is your source of credible information, and you specifically say he ISN'T a political propagandist while dismissing John Oliver as such? Give me a fucking break.

So what happened then? ONE GUY went over the line in his attacks on you, yes, and you, being the snowflake you are, suffered a meltdown. Also please note: despite the fact that you crybabied about how nobody stood for the "horrible trashing" you were given by every other single person in this thread, there was actually someone who did stand up for you, despite disagreeing with your opinions: piecub. You acknowledged him at the time, but then you left him in the dirt and forgot all about him, later claiming nobody had stood up for you at all. You're clearly a snowflake who feels that a whole legion of UMD members are obligated to leap to your defense every time you stir up shit.


Oh, WE can do that. YOU'RE the one who has done exactly what you're accusing us of. Case in point: You managed called me a racist on the shakiest grounds imaginable in AN EXTREME CASE of the process you outline in the quote above. Except guess what?!? You don't even have the "A" comment from me that you can start that ludicrous line of attack from. Find ANYTHING I have said that is racist anywhere on this forum and present it, I DARE YOU.

You claim there's "meat" in that claim -- very well, where's the fucking beef, Engima? Show how I'm a racist, WITHOUT using any idiotic anti-logic along the lines of "You didn't say anything when I pointed out that X did Y. Y is bad, which makes X bad, which makes YOU bad! You're a monster and a racist!" Because that's exactly how you "proved" i was a racist last time. And you claim WE'RE the ones that are twisting things around to suit our agenda!

P.S. Why would Kamela Harris be such a "terrible pick" for Biden's VP?

Enigma and Piero, can we please wrap up this thread?

I'm game. But Enigma keeps on insisting I'm a super-racist on the most ludicrous grounds possible. Do I have to sit here and take that?

Meanwhile, I never called him a racist or a white nationalist or a white supremacist. I specifically said several times I *wasn't* calling him those things, but he pretends I was. In his most hyperbolic moments, he claims EVERYONE on this thread is calling him a racist (despite the fact that one guy lept to his defense who happened to disagree with Enigma's politics!), when I'm pretty sure only one person actually leveled that charge at him.

I DID say Enigmahood supports people who are clearly racists (Trump, Carlson) and I think that's more than fair as I presented plenty of evidence for my allegation*, even though Enigma rejects any and all arguments that either one is racist, or that both mens' anti-immigrant rhetroic are tantamount to racism and hold a particularly strong appeal to white supremacists. I never once said that because he liked people who are racists, that made him a racist too. Ditto with white supremacy. Meanwhile, Enigmahood has said many times that simply because I favor Biden over Trump, that makes me a racist. By Enigma's "logic," the large majority of African-Americans are racists, because they overwhelmingly support Biden over Trump.

Obviously you agree with me on Carlson being a racist, MM, as you deleted Enigmahood's post from yesterday that focused on recent Carlson comments. You said in your note that Carlson is an "obvious racist." Of course, I totally get the fact that this doesn't mean you necessarily agree with anything else I've said on this thread or elsewhere, and should not be construed as you supporting me in any way in this argument.

I'm fine to let this thread end, as long as it doesn't end with Enigmahood baselessly calling me out as a racist one more time.


*Most of the evidence of Trump being a racist that I have presented was in that Tucker Carlson thread that you deleted yesterday, MM.

PieromaniacAttack-ack-ack I doubt you are actually a racist.

However, in your quest to turn a blind eye to one guy, and shine a spotlight on another, if one then uses the often employed A+B=C logic some of you guys enjoy throughout this, in that light you're whatever stupid silly shit someone disingenuous wants to say you are.

How's it feel? Annoying? Kind of lame to sit there and try and defend yourself against a sling of aggressive claims you're a terrible person simply because you hold some random position?

Think about that for a second, then think about how I was told I don't care about black people, simply because I thought Chicago and other blue urban areas were corrupt and poorly run. Think about any number of the things you put on my lap throughout this while you're at it.

I'll go ahead and do what most won't: All those times I called you a racist? Stupid. Intellectually shallow. Done in the moment because I was weary of having those same kinds of dumbass labels put on me and just thought I'd turn the tables -- and it's still WRONG to do, whether I am doing it 'defensively' or you or many others just do it as part of their standard 'debate' routine.

Other than that, Biden is arguably deeply flawed. Trump is arguably deeply flawed. I do not personally have any desire to argue either of those, however I just think everyone can choose to support whomever they want and should not be shamed for doing so. They should not be called racists or bigots for it, either.

On Tucker, I was not a fan of many of the things he was saying back in the early 00s (which I was unaware of prior to this thread), but as I mentioned when I was speaking about Hawk Newsome, people can be flawed.

The little of his current show in 2020? I haven't seen that old side of him at all, he speaks passionately about egality and everyone being equal under the law. I believe in that too. I don't always agree with everything I've seen but I've also not seen anything in 2020 that has had racist roots. He said some bad stuff back then and I don't agree with that stuff at all. I hope he's grown up since then and those beliefs weren't core to his being, I don't think they were, he's got a massive platform now and does not press those kinds of issues.

In this case, the messenger may be flawed (as all men are) but the message, the one I see in 2020, is made of far better stuff.

The site owner MM, who has been more than patient with this particular thread exchange already, he's privately expressed his verdict on this one and I won't bring it up again out of respect there. Plus, I'm not that stupid. This is thin ice already.

You do you. Hold your nose, vote Biden. Some people are not going to agree with you and it's Ok. Just like it's Ok if you disagree with others. Someone disagreeing with does not necessarily make them a bad person. I feel like that concept was lost throughout this.

Last note: Kamala Harris? She'd be terrible in my opinion. She got ethered by Tulsi in one of those debates. Corruption, California far-left on social issues, which if you like great but not for me, another awful record on criminal justice like Joe, and yet another foreign policy Hawk. I like Tulsi Gabbard. I would probably pick her, although I am not a huge fan of her domestic policy, but I am such a big fan of her foreign policy and I feel so strong about that, I would vote for Tulsi and support her had she gotten the nomination. Trump was two steps forward, at least one step back, when it comes to foreign policy. Seems like his heart was in the right spot but he waffled a lot and tapped idiots like John Bolton. Tulsi's moral character is miles beyond any of them, obviously including Trump and I have a hard time envisioning her waffling on her foreign policy positions.

So, not a fan of Harris & it's nothing to do with her vagina or skin or any of that, I just don't like her character and I don't like the majority of her policies and I do not like the direction I fear she would lead the country down. There you go.

Thanks for being honest on this point.


Sure, I agree. To me Trump is the MUCH MORE deeply flawed candidate, and to you Biden is. And it's good to hash these things out, but please try to stick to some approximation of what actually happened when you summarize this thread. Because I never called you a racist or a bigot or a white nationalist or a white supremacist. ONE guy in this whole thread called you a racist, no one called you a white supremacist, and yet at points you were saying EVERYONE here was calling you a white supremacist.


The objectionable quotes you refer to are from the late aughts, not the early ones. Not that it matters all that much, but let's keep things clear here. They were closer to 10 than 20 years ago.


I really wish you hadn't brought TC up again, but now I have to respond. You are entitled to your own opinion to the contrary, but very arguably Tucker Carlson is still pressing racist issues. If you look it up, you'll find his Fox show has lost many dozens of sponsors over various racist remarks he's made over the past year or so, and many other people have called him a racist too. I'm not saying that means you have to accept the judgment of these people; of course you're free to disagree with me and many others in our judgment that Carlson is a pretty avid racist to this day. But all of us who see him very differently than you... well, we're allowed to talk about that too. And to us -- believing as we do that the man is kind of a human billboard for racism -- it was a little disturbing when, in your initial post, you said you didn't need to bother with John Oliver because you watched Tucker Carlson and this alone gave you "a pretty informed opinion." (It sure sounded from that post like he was your only source of information on the world. You later clarified that this wasn't the case.)


I never, ever dreamed for a second things weren't going to be OK. Unless something really drastic changes, I will vote for Biden, flaws and all, and I'm fine that some people may call me bad names for that. I'm prepared to deal with the consequences of my actions and beliefs.
And by the way, I never called you a bad person or terrible person a racist or a white nationalist or a white supremacist or any of the other horrible things you seem to think I've called you. I even went out of my way in several posts to say I'm NOT calling you a racist or a white supremacist. So your concluding "moral" here feels more than a bit condescending. (If you were to use it on diego, who did label you a racist, that would at least make more sense.)

We're all free to disagree with one another, and we should do our best to remain civil when we do so. Amen.

No worries, and as much as I am reticent to give out personal information, basically all my friends are from an exceptionally Blue Texas city, with their beliefs ranging from leftist anarchy, paleo liberalism, moderate left with one holdout who is a hardcore Christian conservative type. So I don't agree with any of them on everything for sure.

I'm sure you're a good bloke as they say, Politics tends to bring out a lot of passion in many people, often with less than great results, something I'll consider in more depth next time I get any urge to make a snarky comment of the political nature.

Here, I'll give a weak apology to everyone. I say weak because it's going to be one of those apologies that is immediately followed with a long explanation. By apology standards, pretty soft, but I will admit a couple mistakes I made here. One, I got too hot. Especially with Piero, no apology to diego for obvious reasons, but to every non-diego I probably went after you all a little strong at some point. I also did more than a little Group-Blaming, and this is where the explanation is going to come which is going to weaken this apology.

I'll say this, sometimes when someone is being surrounded, you kind of get overtaken by the noise, especially if part of that crowd has a couple bad eggs or even just one loud one. I made a lot of Broad statements finger pointing at an entire group, but beyond being united in a common cause, clearly not everyone was behaving in the same way or was in any way responsible for any comment made beyond their own.

In any event, hope there are no hard feelings, sorry if I was unfair to anyone or anything of that nature.