I hope the moderators can keep this here, so we can get a healthy discussion going.

I'm sure a significant number of the people here on UMD would like to find a compatible WAM partner.

Maybe I'm just more depressed than usual, but here's me blurting out my thoughts after being unsuccessful in finding a WAM relationship.

I never had much success with vanilla (non-kinky) people and WAM, so in the past year or so I've reached out to the local fetish group via fetlife. Unfortunately, as a WAMmer, I feel that I'm not "kinky enough" for the local fetish/kink group, which is really a BDSM group, and more of S&M that B&D (in my opinion).

I can do bondage as a secondary/auxillary kink to WAM, but other than that I'm not into the entire BDSM thing. I've met lots of nice ladies, but they want to get poked, needled, cut, bruised, and some (if not most) of this is really not my stuff, a few of them are also "hard limits" for me. So while I have friends with the local kink community, I can't really connect with them or gratify their sexual desires, and I don't really see this changing. To clarify, it's not that I'm not "willing" to change, by honestly my WAM fetish is a product of my upbringing and I'm not as sexually fluid as most of the kinky people that I've met. That and many BDSM-type activities are bad triggers for me because of childhood abuse.

In the end, I find it quite frustrating as a WAMmer that I am not kinky enough for the kink community, but not vanilla enough for the general populace.

I was wondering what other WAMmers experience are? Have you had success with dating from the vanilla pool or from the kinky pool?

I say fill the pool with vanilla and push kinky girls into it.

A really interesting question and very articulately posed. I think most of us have been here in some way, at some point in our lives before. The answer, however, is not an easy one (as you know) and might be quite uncomfortable.

Firstly, a lot of your personal frustration is exacerbated by a degree of desperation - which is an ever decreasing circle. Ironically - although it's the hardest thing in the world when you feel lonesome - try to enjoy being single. This will increase your attractiveness no end (Everyone will tell you this of course).

Secondly, I don't know where you live, but I believe there are a lot more degrees of difference than simply 'vanilla' or 'kinky': an entire spectrum if you like. Unfortunately you have identified yourself as an outsider which makes it even more of an uphill struggle. There might not be a lot of wammers around but there are millions of people with a similar disposition that they don't reveal who might be open to it. And for reasons you state BDSM is clearly not for you.

You talk about 'trying to change' to accommodate the more extreme kinks of others: this is just as bad as trying to change yourself to become less kinky. On some level you haven't truly accepted yourself and this will come across to others.

The solution is self improvement and moreover improving the confidence you have about yourself. This is not changing yourself to fit 'markets' for partners but fully understanding yourself, asking difficult and painful questions of yourself and improving in ways that are possible to do; plus, accepting and learning to love the parts you can't affect rather than lamenting them. Being ready for a relationship.

So, overall, although the outcome is an external one, the effort needs to be directed fundamentally at oneself not at marketing for the dating game - as this simply won't do.

Look for the sophisticated flavours in the vanilla pool and improve yourself to be able to discern them!

If this doesn't make sense, please feel free to PM (it's early in the morning here and I'm not at my best)

Really can't echo what Trouso has said more!

When I met Leon, I'd never heard of wam, hadn't much if any experience with other kinks.
I was open and happy to experiment because of how comfortable and happy Leon was in his own skin.

You have to like, love, live with yourself and the rest just slots into place!

Your amazing, believe it! Let the world see it!

You guys are lucky. I'm only comfortable in Bea Arthur's skin. And honestly it's starting to smell.

I've noticed this distinction between WAM and BDSM also. I'm more into WAM myself. I have not had a relationship with a fellow WAM enthusiast, but in my limited experience of talking to random "alternative" people, there are more people into WAM than you would expect, and most of them aren't into BDSM. Don't give up!

I hope that you find that special someone. A best friend to share your desires and curiosities, understands you and loves you for who you are and respects your boundaries.

It took me 2 marriages and 38 years to find that someone, of all places on the internet. And the hardest part of that was it took time, but I feel I was extremely blessed to find her. I posted a honest and from the heart personal that was brief about me and my preferences. I never saw a picture or posted a picture to those I conversed with, just talked, a lot, before meeting. So when I meet her, that just was the icing of the delicious cake. 14 yrs later still married and it keeps getting better. The mind is a powerful thing, looks can and mostly are deceiving.

Blessings to you.

Please allow me to share a brief version of my story and I hope that it can be of some use to you.
Sploshing is my first and primary fetish, but when joining the BDSM/Fetish scene I found that I enjoyed it too. I met so many amazing people and identified myself as polyamorous. I have found a lot more people open to sploshing on the BDSM/Fetish scene, there are a lot more people who not only know what it is but also willing to try it out.
I am fortunate that of all the partners I currently have and have had, nearly all of them I have sploshed with but it is not the be all and end of of any relationship. In a way, that's the point of poly.
- It's important to recognise partners as human beings and not just things to be played with.
- You need to offer them something, your needs and desires are of no real interest to them.
- Don't be something that you are not, whilst you can learn new skills and be really good at them, if you don't enjoy it and don't have a passion for it then you'll get disenfranchised quickly.

My recommendation is to make a list of things that you would like in a partner and put sploshing in there somewhere. On the understanding that 'The One' does not exists (they might do but it's not something I believe) then try and get as many of your top requirements met and if sploshing isn't one of them then so be it. But definitely talk to them about it as you would do sex or clubbing or watching sports or whatever it is on your list.
If you think that you belong on the BDSM scene then maybe check out some different munches or events? It took me a good 6 months of exploring before I found several munches that I now call home.

See this is exactly the type of dynamic and critical thinking the world needs today.


Robby
WAMma Lamma Pie
www.wammalamapie.com

www.shepiestheguy.com

www.ipiethereforeiam.com

When I was younger and first started getting into kink I thought I could suppress my kink desires in order to be happy in a relationship where my partner did not have the same interests as me. It didn't work for me as I always wanted to fulfill my kink desires. That relationship did not last. Years later I tried another vanilla relationship, but that relationship suffered the same fate. I know now that I need a relationship where my partner is into kink and shares some of my kink interests.

Be true to yourself. You may find a soulmate that shares your kink interests and you may not. Each relationship is different and is up to the two people involved how it is defined. Just enter the relationship knowing who you are and what you want.

I can certainly associate with this.

I also tried with vanilla people and found they 'ran a mile' when I told them.

I now trundle along to an 'alternative lifestyle club' (ahem!) about once a month. I'm not really into BDSM but it's nice to be with people who don't judge you for being a bit kinky. We've even managed to have a couple of sploshing events there, which have been great fun.

It's doubly difficult when, not only are you into WAM but also an occasional kinky Transvestite too. Apart from the fact that there is then virtually no way to connect with 'real girls' (as they never think to go out actively hunting for a TV), the vast majority of women 'out there' assume that all TVs are gay and that you're dressing up to attract other TVs or guys. In fact, the majority of TVs are completely in the closet, even from their wives and families, so you never see them. The ones you generally do see in the media *are* the more flamboyant ones who do tend to be 'drag queens' and gay, which reinforces the stereotype.

I just like the look and feel (especially the feel! ) of smooth lycra rubbing all over my body, especially multiple layers of tights (pantyhose). It was definitely a fet for me when I started, though I've sort of grown into it just being nice, different, yet comfortable in later years. However, finding a female partner who's comfortable with such fets is, as you say, very difficult. It is interesting to note that there's an unusually high proportion of TVs who are into WAM. I suspect it's because we enjoy seeing real girls doing it, as well as imagining that what we see in the mirror and feel as the gloop slides down all that tight lycra is a real girl that we're doing it with.

I've reached an age where (a) if I did find someone, I'm becoming so creaky that I can't expect to be able to 'perform' like I did back in my 20s or 30s and (b) I've sort of resigned myself to the fact that even if I don't find 'the one', then that's probably ok. (I'm never saying never, mind you!)

The Philosophy of Stoicism has much going for it. You're walking a tightrope between never being satisfied with your lot (so always feeling unfulfilled) versus being so satisfied with your lot that you can't be bothered to progress.

Here's 5 minutes of lovely thought-provoking stuff from the ever-excellent Alain de Botton's "School of Life". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds_hg40utKY

I speak as someone who is engaged to a "vanilla". Like most things when it comes to meeting a partner, confidence is key. If you come off nervous and insecure mentioning it to someone you're interested in, you're FAR more likely to scare someone off in the process. You're in control of how "weird" you make it to them. Make it as little of a dealbreaker as possible, most people will understand. It helps too that, in general, this sort of thing is relatively tame on the spectrum of kinks.

Understand your prospective partner's position too. Don't make WAM the "end all be all", because they'll have needs that may need fulfilled that don't align with your interests, same as you!

It's hard to embrace it when you're desperate, but rest easy: there are PLENTY of people out there that aren't into WAM that will enjoy it if you are good to/for them the other 99.9% of the time.

Not the best person to give relationship advice as I have been in a totally sexless and unfulfilling marriage for years. As a result, all my WAM-ing has been "away fixtures!"

I did see a girl I met at work for quite a while, on and off, for a year or two and did manage to gently entice her into a bit of WAM. I knew she was, ever so slightly, kinky as she liked to indulge me in dress up/role play games, which I then brought baby oil into. She loved having baby oil poured over her while dressed in a French maids uniform and heels which I had bought her, so, the next stage was shaving foam on paper plates...

Try this approach.

I am in a perfectly heavenly wam relationship with a woman I will marry. We've been together nearly 8 years now.

Prior to meeting her, I did make a few observations, and please correct me if I'm wrong.

1. Many women who enjoy the idea of wam (even if they've not yet heard of it or tried it) are somewhat bi-curious.

2. Women will either have a 'that's gross' or 'that's kinky' reaction to the idea of getting messy. Usually it's one or the other.

3. Tomboy type women are generally more open to the idea of messy play.

Now these are generalities, and I'm sure they don't fit every single person out there, but I think I'm fairly much on target. So if you can find a girl who is slightly bi-curious (or outright bi sexual), is a tomboy, and not grossed out by the thought of whipped cream or chocolate play, chances are she is going to love wam, once she learns about it.

I wouldn't be looking for a WAM relationship whatever that is. Does that mean you ask girls if they are open to the WAM fetish as a prerequisite to dating? Are we even talking about finding a female partner? If so, just find a girl you like and one who likes you. Every girl I've ever dated has been open to WAM in the bedroom and some really liked it ALOT. I think its a very female-friendly fetish, so I bet your right partner will be happy to indulge in your fetish to some extent. Will she do everything in your book? Who knows? Does she have to? A fetish is a requirement for arousal. You may find you no longer NEED WAM to become aroused in the presence of your right partner. You may develop other fetishes. Maybe you'll start liking what she wants to try! LOL. Forget about the fetish litmus test and just find her.

Just a couple thoughts. If you are have triggers resulting from incidents from your childhood, you could have a form of PTSD (I speak from personal experience) and you may want to look into some counseling. As far as a relationship is concerned: it can potentially be a very long although be it very rewarding. Bottom line is dating sucks, as does rejection and dealing with depression while trying to date is a double whammy. To reiterate previous comments: Step 1, work in improving yourself- whatever that means to you. Maybe its getting into shape, getting a degree or a better job, and just figuring out how to be happy with yourself. Step 2, step out of your comfort zone, find new hobbies and friends who can trust. Statistically, you are still more likely to meet a potential new partner via friends than any other way. I know these are just words and its easier said than done, I know because I'm in the middle of this exact process myself. PM me if you want details (not hiding anything from public but also don't want to make this into a 30 page dissertation).

As far as finding a SO that is into WAM, outside of the UK its not likely to happen. That being said, we are fortunate that WAM is one of the most innocent and safe fetishes out there. My suggestions would be this 1. Don't even mention WAM until you are with a partner you are sexually active with or if the topic of fetishes is brought up (not initiated by you). 2. Start small and slow, maybe a can of whipped cream and a bottle of chocolate syrup. And stick to sweet mediums, most savory items will cause the olfaction sense to overload and lead to a bad experience. And 3. (most importantly) make sure your significant other's first experience to WAM is a positive one. If you associate WAM with a good time, it will increase their interest and want to continue with it. Whereas a negative experience will cause the opposite effect.

I know much of this has already been said but I felt compelled to write out a reply just because much of it hits so close to home.

I completely and whole heartily disagree with this statement. Since I fixed me and started being more upbeat and decided to stop being lonely every woman I have asked about WAM has been into it. With my current girlfriend, we do not get to do it as often as either of us would like, but she is definitely into it. As soon as I found out she had done jello wrestling I knew she would go for WAM. I ended up converting her.

So do I, for whatever reason I completely lost my train of thought and moved along before the statement was complete. Something about WAM being ingrained in our culture. Anyways thank you for calling me out on something that isn't accurate.

Some fantastic comments on this thread. Also perhaps worth a read for the original poster: two similar threads on relationships and wam, from back when the female and male wam forums were separate:

https://umd.net/forums/i/long-term-relationships-with-n?start=0 (straight)
https://umd.net/forums/long-term-relationships-and-wa (gay)

It's important to remember we live in a society now where kink has gone totally mainstream and indeed become just another consumer choice - and wam is far more innocuous and less offputting to newbies than mainstream BDSM. So if you're dating a non-wammer and feel ready to broach the topic, try just introducing it on the level of a fun sexy thing to do (as several commenters have described). In terms of other kinks and the BDSM scene, keep your hard limits, those are important - but it's also important to have a flexible approach to your own sexuality, indeed a growth mindset, and be willing to try things out.

Thanks to everyone from their great comments, and it's great to share your dating experiences too.

However, I still think it boils down to a choice between vanilla vs kinky (fetlife) pool. There's really two routes, and I've not seen anyone provide an example of a 3rd option.

You either
(1) Find a vanilla girl (or someone who is not explicitly kinky) and try to "convert" her.
or
(2) Find someone in the local BDSM/fetish scene, and try to "convince" her.

I've not had much success with option (1), so I went for option (2). My original thought that I'll be meeting open-minded kinky women, and so I will have a higher chance of success to "convince" her. However, I find that to be not true, unless you are into BDSM yourself (and I do mean all letters, and not just bondage - which is for my case).

The trouble is, as much as I can tell, people on fetlife (or at least the ones that organize events and munches) equate kink as BDSM (and all letters too). I have not met a person who is just into bondage. Bondage must have pain for the majority of the BDSM community. And I've interacted with communities in not just my city, but 3 neighboring cities and it's more or less the same thing.

This becomes a problem for "minority fetishes" like ours, because the established "community leaders" will be into BDSM, will organize events for BDSM, and will skew kinky newbies into BDSM type play. I have not seen any play or even know any kinky people from my community who are into uncommon fetishes that I know of like - balloons, foot (which I thought was popular but maybe not?), etc.

My initial thoughts was that, there's pretty good bondage and WAM material on UMD, so maybe it would fit in with the kink crowd, but the thing is as a WAMmer, I won't be as compatible/attractive as another BDSMer in the BDSM community, because I cannot engage in their core fetish which is pain. Conversations and events always revolve around pain: wax(pain), fire(pain or danger), needles(pain), blood(pain), floggers(pain), paddles(pain)... you get the idea. And I can tell you from chatting up women who just joined, pain is on the priority list on way or another. So how can I connect with these kinky women when I can't satisfy their sexual needs?

In short, that's the difficulty. Even though I have been in my local community for more than a year, I am an outsider. I just don't do BDSM stuff. You have to fit in, or you don't get the benefits.

And that lies the crux of the problem. I'm not kinky enough for the BDSM community, but too kinky for the vanilla pool.

Ultimately, I think this probably comes from a misconception of what fetlife is, and as another rant I think they should just rename themselves as BDSMlife. There's a laundry list of fetishes on wikipedia, and I've yet to meet anyone who has another fetish. Perhaps it's time to go back to fish from the vanilla pool, because clearly it's not working (I think). At the very least I will be interacting with people who are actually trying to find a partner.

Lastly, this may be a shot in the dark, does anyone know a kink/fetish dating site? Fetlife really doesn't cut it. I am a busy person, I have no desire to go to munches, I've been to so many now, but 90% of people are paired up, or primarily into BDSM, so it's a real waste of time. There's hardly any new women in those settings. And it doesn't help that people keep on repeating that the various groups on fet is not for dating or hookup... SERIOUSLY? Then why the fuck are you on Fet????

Look, and I'm not just from the angle of a horny guy here, I want to find a mutually pleasing relationship. I just wished there was a setup where kinky people looking for partners will come together, talk about their sexual desires, and go from there if it works out for both parties. And perhaps just once I would like to meet a person who is not into the stereotyped BDSM. Hell, even if it's something I am not into like balloons, it will be a welcome change, and if she is into balloons, you bet your balls that I can do balloons to make her cum!!!

Really sad to see so much emphasis placed on a fetish in finding a partner. Starting with a fetish and working from that to find a wife or LTR is so ass-backwards, it is such a small part of a total, long-lasting relationship. (If you don't believe me ask Mud Mad Phil or others who have wed partners who were into the same fetish.) People change, their tastes change, they grow old, who knows why we like what we like, but I hate to see someone suffer like this, trying to look only for someone who is into a particular fetish, only to waste so much time looking for unicorns when 99% of the females participating in WAM were exposed to it by their boyfriend and liked it, is painful for me to hear. I suspect that goes for most fetishes. I'd really just try and find a girl you like and not bring up sexual fetishes for the first 2-3 months of dating. I think you'll learn a lot about someone in that time and possibly ascertain if she may be open to WAM or may not be a good fit for other reasons. When the time comes, ask her if she knows about WAM, or, watch a movie with mainstream mess like a pie fight or mudwrestling in it with her and use that to break the ice and start a dialog, or just wait naked on the bed wearing nothing but whipped cream for briefs and have a half dozen cans next to the bed when she walks in if you're brave. You'll find out if she's OPEN to WAM which is the key IMO, and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised how many girls think its a lot of fun.

Totally disagree. It's less repressed and more liberal than in all American history and most of the world's history.
I don't think this is about sex as much as it is about engaging in a fetish. OP chime in here. Not sure how your wife and 11 years of sex problems compares to the OP's situation. But that brings me to
I can tell you when the time isn't, and that's 11 years into your marriage. I wish I could be more specific about a time frame but every relationship matures at a different rate. I think a person knows when they are interested in keeping a partner long-term or marrying them. Maybe its around the time you fall in love with the person. Anyway, when the future with a partner looks long -term, that, to me, is the time you had better fess up and have this conversation about your "needs."

Yes and I don't like that. I don't want anyone to be alone or unfulfilled. For whatever reason I've had great success as far as sploshing with many partners. I didn't make it weird, so it wasn't weird for them. I can't help but think the great majority of obstacles to participation are erected in the mind of the fetishist. All one needs to do is look at youtube to see the VAST, OVERWHELMING majority of messy challenge / pie / mudwrestling videos are exclusively girls or a male and female. This has also been my personal experience with sploshing. Not as much with other fetishes, but girls LOVE messy fun. They freaking love it.

Here is the problem with "start with a fetish demand and work backwards" You are treating a potential female partner like a sex worker or backpage ad girl. How would you like it if a girl demanded to see your paystub before agreeing to go out with you? You'd feel like there is nothing about you, just the lifestyle your $$ can provide, she's interested in. How do you think she'll feel when you start to rattle off your sexpectations? Probably the same way.


It really has nothing to do with that, besides what I outlined, it is the only solid plan there is to attain your goal. I know it works 'cause I and a lot of guys have done it with success with multiple partners. On the other hand I don't know any success stories that started out with fetish demands.


That's quite true, and it doesn't HAVE to be. Its sexual for YOU. A person can be open to trying it and find it's enjoyable, fun, maybe they even use it to turn their man on, maybe she's willing to do it for her partner even though it isn't arousing for her, and in some cases, yes, they may become aroused by the fetish. Sometimes it might be a different part she likes (the fun, the feel of the mess, the excitement) whatever.
BTW, Lisa Moomin and MJ were both exposed to wam by their boyfriends weren't they? How about MyPierogative ? Females into sploshing were either exposed to it by their boyfriend, or recruited by models / producers already into sploshing, but there are precious few unicorns who just happen to be practicing sploshing fetishists in the dating pool. What I'm trying to say is don't narrow your pool of potential mates down from several billion to 20 around the world. Even if you find one willing to get together with you, odds are none of those 20 is a compatible life partner. Problem not solved.

SploshingCouple, I've always enjoyed playing dirty and that's probably why WAM was immediately sexual for me and came very naturally. I was always a wammer but didn't even realize it was a fetish... I think partly because my "WAM origin story" doesn't come from game shows or tv, but from boys in my neighborhood throwing mud at me etc. haha.

I see so much wrong with this post. Wrong in my own head... not judging. If I had even the faintest sense that the relationship was more about finding a way to get me messy than it was about me being me and someone loving all of me I'd tell the person to fuck off immediately. That's another reason I never found a wammer to date when I was actually actively looking a couple years ago. I don't see how any relationship can be a happy, healthy, and fulfilling one if sex and fetish is the most important part. I'm not saying sexual chemistry isn't important, of course it is! But that comes naturally as you fall in love and explore someone else. You become closer and more comfortable, or at least I think you should. Hence why dating sites and one night stands, or just getting a pie in some random persons face can never be truly fulfilling. That's also why my sessions are a damn all day affair! I know I'd feel gross just saying hello (insert mess here) and goodbye. That's just in a session! Not even looking for romantic relationships! I don't want to ever leave a mess or have someone else leave the mess thinking "well ok. Now what?" I want to stay connected and build a friendship. So that's another perspective for ya Chris.

I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who is a real romantic though. In all aspects of life. I like to think most people are good and caring. So you can imagine the love, respect, compassion, communication, and trust it would take for me to be in a relationship. And some guy that wants to take me off a dating site, throw a pie or whatever at me and go, or stay just because I'm a good messy target, will not make the cut. And yes... I had this happen! (I used to put a messy pic on profile as a cue to wammers) He never got to throw a pie. Haha! I think men underestimate some ladies abilities to read what they are really doing, or shit, maybe y'all don't even realize when you are doing this crap amongst your enthusiasm at the messy prospects. We can tell from eye contact, body language (I won't give all the cues away... I don't want to help anyone fool any seemingly unsuspecting women) haha!

Anyway, I don't know Chris. This all seems backwards to me. It's all out of the natural order of bonding with another person in a beautiful way. Ok. Speech over. Love y'all!

Another way to look at it to simplify what I just said....

How appealing is the idea or attractive is it that "anyone will do. I don't care what they think of me, I don't care about if they respect or love or care about me. I just want anyone, as long as we can get messy and fuck." I don't know about you, but the thought of that being someones attitude is incredibly unattractive, and very telling of how they feel, and the respect they have for theirself and the other person. Like the great RuPaul says "if you can't love yourself, how the hell you gonna love somebody else?!" Good luck Chris! I'd start on the inside and work my way out dude.

I think that MyPie is right - it's not very flattering if you only want to be with someone because they'll get messy. However, there's a mathematical phrase: "X is necessary but not sufficient." For instance, suppose I said that I will only date women aged 30-50; that doesn't mean that I'd date anyone in that range, it just means that this is a deal-breaker.

Have you heard of "golf widows"? The idea is that the husband spends every weekend playing golf, so he doesn't see much of his wife. You could extend that to any other hobby, e.g. if the wife goes hang-gliding every weekend and rarely sees her husband. In a situation like that, it might be nice if the couple shared those interests, but that doesn't necessarily mean they should limit themselves to other golfers (or whatever); I know some people who specifically like to have separate interests, so that they aren't joined at the hip all day. Applying that to WAM, one solution is to keep the mess separate from your relationship. E.g. one person could head out to a muddy field while the other person stays home and watches TV.

That leads into the next question: how sexual is this for you? There was a discussion about WAM sessions a while back, where someone said that he'd get blue balls if he got messy with someone and couldn't have sex afterwards. For me, it's mainly a fun activity; I can honestly say that I didn't get aroused at all during the London Splosh Games a few months ago, but I still enjoyed the evening. This would probably affect how enthusiastic your partner is if you want to get messy with other people.

Chris,

There are plenty of WAM fetishists all over the place. Fetlife has it's issues, but there are a lot of people on there lurking. Maybe switch up the munches you attend..? I am not sure you your age, but a lot of the TNG munches are young people hanging out. I have been to a few and they have been pretty cool and relaxed at bars. I wasn't there looking for a romantic partner, but there were plenty of singles there.
There is a lot more to fetlife than BDSM... you just have to do the footwork. Just like on here.... with that being said, have you looked around here? There have to be a few out there. I will say in Oregon and Washington I have had 1 or 2 sessions and not that many more inquiries... so regional hurdles could be at play too...

OP here, replying to assorted comments of the original motivations for starting this thread. Since this is fetish board, obviously I would be talking about fetish. But along the way, there has been perpetuation of misconceptions/misunderstandings of my intent, and I honestly don't appreciate that, so I'm here to steer the ship back on course.

- Fetish is NOT the ONLY thing I look in a relationship, but it's something I would like know, at the latest, a few months into the relationship. It is a "deal breaker" incompatibility and I need to determine it ASAP. It may sound very pragmatic, but I don't have the time to spend 5 years, only to realize my partner is anti-WAM. And it's not just fetish. I'll give a non fetish example. Personal finance and debt habits is also a "deal breaker" for me. For example, if a potential partner was hugely in debt and had no fiscal responsibility or plan to get out of it, and buys a new car tomorrow just because she felt like it, the odds of me committing to a long-term relationship is slim. What I am trying to do is "fail frequently and fail early", so that I assess major compatibility factors, and then decide if it's worth proceeding further.

- On the flip side, there is nothing with prioritizing fetish needs in a relationship. Since I'm not poly (see below), I do want a partner who can I engage with my fetish. Again, it saves time and regret down the road, and in before people put words in my mouth again, that applies for her as well. If there's some "deal-breaker" factor that she needs to know be it sexual or non-sexual, I'll let her know.

- In my experience, when I tell people about our fetish it's usually a "Eeek, NO" or "Oooh... YES/maybe". Admittedly, if you socialize with BDSM/kink crowd, I do tend to get more "Oooh... YES/maybe", but then I realize we are not extremely compatible, because I can't fulfill their BDSM desires. So this is more about me at fault, there are fetish-compatible women, but I am not fetish-compatible for these women. This last part is the main motivation for the original post, btw.

- What do I want in partner? Preferably a compatible partner (in other aspects of life) who is also open to our fetish. But that's a unicorn. What will I settle for? Maybe a few open relationship for WAM. But honestly, I'm not sure. I'm not a poly person, and while I tried to "force" myself in thinking it was ok, it's not me. It's not a religious/moral thing, it just takes a long time for me to open up and start a relationship with someone and I will admit playing with a long-time friend is more fun that playing with an acquaintance. Bottomline, I'm not poly/swinger (so I cant go for this route), even though I have tried to be.

- I actually don't mind if women are direct and asking for paystub in the first few dates, or whatever information that she needs to make a judgement on whether this relationship is worth pursuing. I don't want to deal with drama/BS. As I said earlier on, I would like to make a quick assessment and decide whether to move on to another person or go deeper. That applies to both me and her.

- I am also not too sure how comfortable I will be engaging friends about WAM and not tell them about the fetish. I have many vanilla female friends, whom I am pretty confident would want to mess me up should I lose a "football bet". But it's wrong, since I will get turned on.

- I disagree with don't restrict yourself to this specific social group. You expect me to find a compatible partner, both in life and in fetish by just doing a random walk? That is just not going to happen. I'm looking to share ideas on how to strategically target specific social groups and sub-populations. For example, if there was a "clean and neat" fetish, you would surely NOT be dating out from this pool. Targeting a specific group makes sense if that group has both increased fetish acceptance and increased compatibility. For BDSM/kink crowd, I found the former is true, but the latter is in my experience reversed. For vanilla crowd, it is the reverse order, less fetish compatibility but more non-fetish compatibility.

In any case, I would like to thank everyone for their comments and insights. I'll summarize with the following paths I could take (some of which are definitely not for me, but maybe it would help others).

- Keep on dating the vanilla pool and convert her. Hopefully you get lucky, it does happen, as it goes to show that a good proportion of female WAMmers are converts or have the "WAM DNA" and just need to be awakened.

- Join the BDSM/kink scene, and learn how to beat and torture women. Trying to say this with a straight face, that way one could establish a D/S type relationship, where both parties sexual needs are fulfilled. She messes me up, I beat her up. I would happily replace beatings for other fetishes, but I've not observed many other fetishes outside BDSM where I live. Obviously, this is from a dom's perspective, if you more on the submissive side, then the reverse holds true.

- Be poly/friends-with-benefits/fuckbuddies/swingers and hang out with that community. Treat WAM like a hobby/pastime like golf (albeit a sexual one).

- Go lose bets with vanilla friends and get messed up for it. I have ethical reservations for this one, and so I'm mentioning this just for completeness sake.

i wouldn't go for someone in the BDSM scene if I were you. Especially after reading your discriptions of what you think that scene is about. There seems to be a misunderstanding and lack of respect for what that community is about. I'm not into it either, but I've just got to say, it's probably best we don't mock or simplify BDSM into "beating and torturing women," even if it isn't said with a straight face.

People in glass houses.....

Ps. I'm not picking on you Chris. I just don't understand this, and every post I'm reading of your explanations contain some form of disrespect for other people and/or their communities. So I feel like I have to discuss that since we are in our own fetish forum here. Oh, and I meant a few months not 5 years to reach a point of discussing WAM with a partner. Personally I'd laugh and get it off my chest immediately, but that's just me and I know it isn't that easy for everyone.