Time and time again I see trailers that contain zero mess or literally like the last second of it is 1 second of the girl messy. I don't understand why producers do trailers like these. Sure there is a hype factor to seeing the girl premessy however there is no pay off when the footage you get to see is one second one. Zero payoff means I'm into the next thing. It does not make want to buy the video at all. Infact the pictures tell more of the story sometimes so why even bother with a trailer. I am just trying to watch the thing to see how the mess looks on the girl not be teased by the trailer. That does not make want the buy that thing when I can't tell what the scene is going to be like. Sorry to go on a rant... But just annoyed at the trend.

Just my opinion and I don't do this, however I suspect that some producers don't want to give away free footage to the users who are to cheap to buy a video.

Phil

Screams my video has so little material, content, or good moments that putting any in a trailer gives away the whole thing....huge red flag. I bought your videos in the past Phil. Trailer can't cover the amount of awesome in them.

There are several interlinked reasons for mess-free trailers, the first and most important of which is that if you release a trailer with any of the actual money-shots in it, there are a lot of people who'll simply download the trailer, loop it, and wank to that, and never buy the video.

Putting together a proper detailed trailer also takes a lot of time - I can edit a main scene together in about an hour, but to do a detailed trailer with lots of shots fading beteen each other, picking the pefect start and stop points for each cut - that's easily a full evening's work. Sometimes it's worth it, even knowing it'll reduce sales, when you're establishihg yourself and want to make sure people know the quality of your work, or bringing in a new model you want to show. But other than that, once people know the kind of quality you produce, pictures and a decent description of the scene are the beat way to let people know what's in a release.

It's still worth doing simple trailers, either the first minute before the mess starts, as the Moomins seem to do a lot, or a specific shot of shots taken during the shoot specifically to be the trailer, so that people can be sure the video will play on their equipment, and to demonstrate the screen resolution and bitrate. So less of a trailer and more a tech-demo. This may be becoming less important now as almost everyone has kit that can play high-res scenes but a few years back it mattered a lot.

I kinda get it, but I kinda don't. Some people might like the intrigue of not knowing what the mess will look like, but I ALWAYS skip a video if the trailer or the forum post doesn't include any mess at all so I know what I'm buying.

I especially don't like the ones with 2-10 girls in them and the trailer and preview pics on the order page don't tell you who gets messy. They're trying to avoid spoiling it, but that's not for me. That's another one I won't buy.

Yeah I think I'm more receptive to buying from trailers with a little mess in, but if they come with a few still shots that is enough too (maybe the stills could be incorporated into the trailer? But I know that is a lot of work).

I agree with this 100%, and I am pretty sure I know which producer(s) you are referring to. If I am right, I know that if you send them a message asking who gets messy in the end they will tell you!

Agree with you there, there should always be still shots or frame grabs showing just how messy everyone got (or didn't get). Given lots of people are into hair mess, or feet mess, or specific outfits, to me it seems like madness not to let people know what they're getting.


Likewise. Evidently lots of people do like those scenes or that producer wouldn't keep shooting them, but as soon as I see no mess in the preview pics I click away. I know you can message and ask, but if I put them to the bother of replying I'd then feel an obligation to buy something, and I don't want to be in that position, so just leave it. Admittedly so far I've never liked any of the outfits in those types of scenes, if it was a girl in overalls vs one in a real nurses dress, I might feel differently.

I don't wanna call any specific producer out, because the stuff I have bought of theirs is really good and I wouldn't want to hurt their business any, the "mystery" scenes just aren't my thing so I always prefer to just buy the ones I know.

Glad to know they'll tell you who gets messy if you ask, though. I'll have to remember that!

I'm one of those types where if I don't get a tiny taste of whats in the video I won't buy because I'm afraid it might not push the right buttons especially if they leave it a mystery even in the written description. I don't need a video trailer but maybe a couple tease photos or at least a detailed description would go a long way in helping me decide if a video is right for me.

Go back 20 or more years and it was very common for producers/photographers to withhold all but the model's clean images in promos. There might be one or two thumbnails or, at best, very low res 'samples' on their own site to serve as proof that the promised scene actually happened. If you wanted to see more you had to pay!

The purpose of the 'teaser' is, as Robby says, to do just that.

These days of course video is everything and still images have long since lost their commercial value. Selling videos is immensely competitive and having the edge does tend towards revealing more on the whole; there's also much more of an expectation of 'transparency' - that everything be described in the greatest detail so as not to mislead. We scatter stills around like confetti. Do we really need to see a moving version of the best piece of action? It's still possible to be disappointed by a full length film even if we have seen most of the best bits. It's a fine line but it's the producer's call.

I love making trailers of my own work (when I have time) and have usually included some kind of sample (which will invariably include messy shots). I'm skeptical that 'reveal' trailers actually kill sales. Not much will dampen the impulses of a serious buyer.

From a personal point of view if I want it I'll buy it. Amateur pies/Piefightgirls used to put up very generous short WMV samples which frequently gave away (what turned out to be after purchase of the full clip) most of the best moments. This certainly didn't stop me buying them.

Having said all that, there's no harm in a bit of mystique. Something I fear we're losing.

Just to give my own take on this and here I'm specifically referring to the gameshow videos (which are 99% of the scenes I commission), I know from the messages I get that there are two clear camps - those who love watching the game play out and those who prefer to know the outcome. Personally I'm in the former - we love the anticipation of not knowing who is going to lose and seeing the smug reactions of the winner and the frustration of the loser - that is a lot of what makes a wam scene for me and that's before we even get to the mess!

Obviously I get to see my own scenes before they are released on here and always make a firm point of requesting zero spoilers (and the great Rev and Mostwam team always oblige).

If there was a spoiler, it is to me the equivalent to me of reading a whodunnit and being told who the culprit is on the first page!

If say it was one of my strip rock paper scissors games with Rev and we posted a picture of the messy loser - from that it gives away who won, who lost and how far the winner had to strip. If we did that, we may as well not bother filming or playing the game in the first place. We may as well just strip one girl naked and trash her - but that's not the type of scene I (usually) go with. And maybe the gameshow scenes aren't really for those who want spoilers.

I know from the messages I get some people have loved the drama of the wheel play out in my mostwam mystery tank stripped series (and again from messages here, some want to know what the tank contains, and some really don't and want it to be as much as a surprise to them as it was the girls). In the series so far we've had girls risk it all - some have celebrated big wins and we have also had the pie penalty combined with first time nudity. If we had told you who got naked, yes it would have created interest but also ruined the fun surprise element!

I know some people are invested in particular models, and some message me or Rev or Al to request the outcome and we always oblige. I think this is the fairest way, so those who enjoy the thrill of the game don't get it ruined for them.

I agree with the Monarch about not wanting to know the winner in advance, but I also see DM1's point.

(On a tangent, I've had a similar experience when I go to comic conventions, and see small press creators running stalls. If I look at their comic and then decide it's not for me, I feel really guilty for snubbing their work in front of them. However, the upshot is that I tend to go past without even glancing in their direction, so that I don't get their hopes up, which is a bit counter-productive!)

Maybe there's a way to put more detail in the original post (available without asking) but also hide it? I've seen some forums that support spoiler tags (via BBCode), but I don't think that's currently an option for UMD. Another option would be to post it using ROT13 encryption (A becomes N, B becomes O, C becomes P, etc.); however, people might not want the faff of copy/pasting into a second website to decrypt it.

I'm going to agree with the OP and say far too many WAM previews simply don't show enough. The guys who are gonna wank to a quick pie hit preview have no intentions of buying anything anyway. They troll Youtube every day with their dick in their hand.

The customer you're trying to get is me. Yes, there are pie hits in pie videos, but done poorly there's no or poor coverage, which I can't stand. So if I can't get a good feel for the pie hits and outcome I'm not risking buying it.

While I don't make pie videos for sale, I am a fetish producer with the fact to make up that better previews = better sales.

Haven't read through all the replies, but my thoughts...

In any healthy dating relationship you want to give 'em just enough to make them want the rest, then nothing 'til they pay up. (Make of that what you will.) Probably something similar.

Then again, Steve Martin did advise some other comedy filmmaker to put the best jokes in the trailer, so...

This is one of the reasons I don't produce wam anymore*, and one of the reasons I drink...



...coffee, but still.

*It isn't really.

I used to really like the game show format at one time.

But they only really produce that 'thrill' for me when the models are new and unknown and there's something genuinely unexpected in the outcome. Top Gunge successfully achieved this in the early days as the shows were infrequent enough not to overtake the numbers of incoming models.

These days, the game-based productions are so prolific and numerous that even the big studios/producers rapidly exhaust their model pool and struggle to do more than go through the motions with what is effectively an ensemble cast. So games no longer interest me and so I look for other things.

I mean i need before and after pics to judge when yo buy, the process of getting there is the scene. Don't ruin it by putting it in the trailer.

I'm tired of reading this sort of bullshit referencing us all the time, We do not only produce game shows, we produce a vast and very varied amount of content.
If we were to produce an update every now and then and had the time to devote to that one scene, things would be very different.
We have a website that updates DAILY and a second that updates twice a week and as such our team do a fucking outstanding job.

There is plenty of entertainment value even in our game shows due to the relationships and characters of our "ensemble cast". We are a fully clothed site and lots of our fans are more about the outfits worn than anything else, but we still endeavour to produce entertaining content.
We introduced new concepts once, or twice, or more per year and also regularly had lots of new girls regularly passing through the studio, well, we did until that little thing that happened in 2020, that fucked everyone over.

As for posting the mess in previews, we post thousands of messy preview images and plenty of full free videos, more in fact than anyone else on the UMD. We just hold back the results of some of our games. I mean it's quite obvious that whoever loses will get truly messy, do we use small quantities of mess, ever??? You just have to ask who's lost and imagine our usual quantity of mess going over that person, is it really that necessary to see preview pictures of the result and mess?

We're still here and going strong, so, of course this is all about personal tastes and opinions, it is just getting so boring to read the regular criticism when no else manages to do what we do as regularly and reliably as us.

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCRoTZyDCGeB0FiUSpS7bz9Q

Although I did mention Top Gunge my latter reference was not specifically aimed towards Mostwam and certainly wasn't intended as a dig. I apologise if it came across that way, Leon. I admire and appreciate your wide ranging content and you are undoubtedly still the best at delivering it. There are clearly a lot of people out there still very interested in game formats and several players in terms of producers big and small catering for these fans. That's fair enough. For my own tastes, though, games seem to have run their course, that's all.

A very similar situation applies in my store (not least because we both make some great customs for The Most Royal Monarch), and therefore much (not quite all) of what Leon says applies in both cases so I have cut and pasted the relevant bits above to save duplication.

Again, I agree with the Most Royal Monarch himself, who wrote on behalf of those who do love these scenes being spoiler-free:

"we love the anticipation of not knowing who is going to lose and seeing the smug reactions of the winner and the frustration of the loser - that is a lot of what makes a wam scene for me and that's before we even get to the mess!

If there was a spoiler, it is to me the equivalent to me of reading a whodunnit and being told who the culprit is on the first page!

If we posted a picture of the messy loser - from that it gives away who won, who lost and how far the winner had to strip. If we did that, we may as well not bother filming or playing the game in the first place. We may as well just strip one girl naked and trash her"

I couldn't agree more with this. What's more, I release so many scenes that if you don't like the ones without spoilers (proportionately a very small number), and don't want to message to ask who won (I have many customers who do message and ask, and I am always happy to let them know) then hopefully there will be plenty more scenes you can enjoy on the site, featuring the exact same girls getting messy.

I respect every customer's right to make their own purchasing decisions and I absolutely accept that some customers won't buy some of our gameshow and messy variety show scenes because they can't see preview pictures. I always welcome feedback and I really do appreciate customers taking the time and trouble to explain why they haven't purchased a scene, but thankfully the scenes do sell well, as clearly there are plenty of customers who *do* love the element of surprise present in the variety shows and game shows we make, mostly penned by the creative genius known as the Most Royal Monarch.

Surely in the broad church that is WAM there is enough room for a proportionately small number of scenes available for those who like a 'game of chance' without spoilers.

I dont' think it'll hurt anyone's business, there are clearly a range of different types of buyers who want and expect different things from WAM productions. TBH the way you can tell if something works for a producer or not is whether they keep on doing it, which indicates that either a) it sells well, or b) someone with deep pockets is funding it, or c) both. Which are all sound business strategies for a producer to work to. When someone does something once and never again, you can be fairly sure it didn't sell.


I think this thread has broadened it's meaning a bit - originally it was just about having no mess in the trailer for a scene. In our case, we sometimes have all-clean trailers to demonstrate video resolution and show off the girls in their clean outfits, but include messy still pictures in the preview to show the mess developing, and what the girls looked like at the end of the scene, so potential buyers know they got propertly covered all over.


I remember Messy Fun would sell you 25 still photos as prints for $25, and that seemed perfectly reasonable. Many of my scenes now have more than 25 free preview shots, and others are similar.


I guess the various experiences people have had with scammers of various sorts has partly lead to that.



See my post above about how long proper trailers take to make - I think this one was two or three days of work, but I really wanted to show off how much fun we'd had with Maria in that one. I suspect this really does give away far too many of the money shots (even though there are lots more in the actual video), but at the time figured it was an advert not just for that scene, but for all our work with Maria. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6vKppcC_3Y
Just having the first all-clean minute of the video as the trailer reduces three days of editing to four minutes of rendering.

You're also probably right about serious buyers will still buy, a bit like how it's notable that with some honourable exceptions, those who post most to forums aren't the same usernames who actually buy content, unless they use the anonymous function. But the fear is always there that too much trailer means people will just enjoy that and never buy, which probably is, along with saving editing work, a major reason for all-clean trailers.


I guess an established producer with a reputation for solid work can afford to play with mistique a bit - we all know they're goinng to totally cover the models in goo properly. Harder for a newbie though, who needs to establish their quality first.


Bear in mind there are other ways than just a trailer to demonstrate what a buyer will get, still photos taken at the end of a scene can prove that the recipients got properly and totally covered, and an accurate and well written text description can give lots of detail without giving away the visuals.


Out of curiosity, do you script the games so you know what's going to happen to who, or do you just specify the game itself and so until the scene is delivered you don't know who won or lost either?

When I started shooting wam I used to micro-manage almost to drip-by-drip level because I wanted to capture *exactly* how I'd visualised the scene playing out in my mind. Over the years I've learned to step back from that, nowadays I just specify the most absolutely important elements in a scene, and other than that let the girls largely make it up as they go. Makes for less disjointed scenes and much easier editing, as things can be left as long takes rather than constantly starting and stopping the cameras so I can direct. But I still always know in advance who's getting messy, how, and in what overall order.

Agree there definitely are two distinct camps, I guess the real difference is that the "gameshow" camp want to see a longish clean build-up before the mess happens, whereas the "procedural" camp that I'm in wants to see a longish "getting steadily messier" as the girls gradually reduce each other from pristine to ruin?


Nailed it! And yes, have had similar experiences at different types of conventions where I don't want to accidentally get people's hopes up that they're getting a sale when they aren't.


Now *that* is a very interesting idea! Obvs doesn't work for photos but would be a way to let those who want to know who out of a pair of models gets messy, while leaving it a mystery for those who prefer surprises. And removes the "obligation" issue completely. Brilliant! We have thought of doing some "one stays clean" scenes, if the logistical issues of fair payment can be resolved, and that would give a way to keep the outcome mysterious for those who want it that way. Ta for the idea!

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That pretty much echoes what Trouso said, and good point about wanting to know the actual quality of the mess, like whether pie hits are well or badly done. Though at the same time some of that can be garnered from stills, it doesn't necvessarily have to be in the trailer?


????! I really hope that's meant as satire, because that is nothing resembling "a healthy dating relationship", that is controlling and abusive behaviour. Healthy relationships are built on trust, care, total honesty, and sharing, and have little to do with the commercal world, which is what wam production is.


I guess there are actually two different approaches to games in WAM. You can have the "big gunge at the end" type game, more like a TV show, where everyone stays clean till the last game where the overall loser gets the goo. But there's also the "messy games" approach where the participants play some kind of game of chance which decides, turn by turn, who gets the next little bit of mess applied. I first encountered game-based WAM from Japanese producers who had their models play scissors-paper-stone or spin-the-wheel games, with the winner gettting to add more mess to the loser each round. I love those kind of games as it adds an element of surprise, the players don't know what's going to happen to them next.


Now that makes sense to me - prove the scene's worth getting, don't give away the money-shots.


This is somewhere I sometimes wonder if I'm out of whack with most others - I'm honestly not that fussed who a model is, or even within reason how she looks, what totally makes or breaks it from the actual fetish point of view for me is a combination of a) her figure, b) her outfit, c) that she's actually enjoying what she's doing.

The one true goddess of love and beauty incarnate could star in a WAM video, but if she's wearing a horrid skimpy bikini, or low-rise jeans, or looks like she's hating it, I ain't going to buy it. Meanwhile the completely "ordinary" lass from the farm up the road, no makeup, hair roughly tied back, in well-fitting overalls and wellies, laughing and giggling that she's about to take a fully clothed custard bath and fully intends to enjoy it... take my money!!!


Only after you've done your wam detention. I believe Jayce is the detention monitor today?

Finally, none of what I posted was meant as a dig at the producers who do shoot the "unknown ending" gameshow scenes, sorry if any of it came over that way, as I said some posts back, the fact that the producers doing them keep on doing them proves they sell, which at the end of the day is the only measure of success that really matters.

It's not scripted - I don't know or want to know the outcome until I watch. In the case of the jackpot scripted series, I certainly wouldn't willingly be giving the cash away and I doubt the girls would have been that willing to gamble, especially those who had to reveal all!

I've always wondered if I should make trailers, I never have because I'm useless on computers and cameras. But I can see where this is based on preference and you can't please everyone all the time. For some a trailer is important, for some, it's not. I agree with a few things that have already been said, if not showing everything in a trailer still brings a lot of business to a producer and works for the majority of their customers, then it's okay if you don't want to buy from them. But I also echo the sentiments of RobbyWLP in that if you know that the scene is going to have mud, pies, slime, etc, don't you know what to expect? Isn't the model inevitably going to be wammed? Why do you need to see them get messy before you see them get messy? I mean, why bother with buying my video about me getting pied when you just watched the entire purpose of the video for free? Like DungeonMasterOne said, people can just loop the trailer and wank to that, so why buy the video? But my questions are based on my personal preference that seeing someone get pied is the money shot and the most important part of the scene, so, there's that.

Not sure I get the "You know the model gets it" argument when it comes to posting no spoilers. This fetish has so much personal preference around it - as evidenced by so many threads - that just saying that doesn't seem enough.

People want to see some evidence of reaction, splatter, timing, etc... All that adds up to create a situation where the same model, getting gunged in the same tank, in the same outfit, could easily be seen by someone as a must-buy in one instance and a dud in the other.

I can get people wanting the anticipation, sure, but file me under at least wanting a screenshot or two. Saying that, I HAVE bought a monarch gameshow before, so perhaps I'm just a massive hypocrite.

Problem is a reaction here, a splatter there, a timing here, and so on eventually adds up to...a whole video. And there are more than a few people here who will use the "personal tastes" argument until entire videos posted for free count as "trailers." Because you have to know "for sure" before you shell out ten whole dollars.

Well now, while I do agree with most of what Robby WLP has said, there are a couple of important points to make:

1] We have all had the experience of being 'teased' by what appears to be a good video, only to order it and be very disappointed (this happened to me recently when I finally, after years of seeing teaser stills and video clips, broke down and actually purchased this well-hyped wam video...feel free to PM if you want to hear my non-for-public consumption opinion)...thanks to clever/skilled editing, a poor or just average video can be made to look promising (think of the old Messy Fun 'Nine girl pie fight', a few good hits, but mostly not well executed; no offense to RB, RIP). There CAN be a bit of deception here in that the producer needs to recoup his investment. So I do have a bit of sympathy with the OP.

The alternative here (for would-be producer newbies) is to just make what you like to see, and to hell with making money/profit.

There was a time when there was so little wam content (not grabbed off of TV or Film releases), that people didn't care too much if the wam content was only so-so (or if there was just one good pie hit or gunging). Not any more (as we all know)...we now have an 'embarrassment of riches (in wam choices).

2] So, the TRICK to a good teaser/trailer is to show JUST ENOUGH to let people know what they're gonna see, but NOT SO MUCH that they will no longer want to see more (i.e., purchase the vid). Not that he needs more promotion, but Rich does this (usually) very well (e.g., cutting the shot a split second after the hit, or, doing rapid sequences of the same type of edit, etc.)

But it's always an tightrope walk between showing too much and too little. With a large back catalog, one has the luxury of being able to conduct these 'experiments' in promotion (what type of teaser results in the most sales, etc). assuming that the models are equally attractive and the video content (e.g., semi-humorous script, solo model, 15 pies, 2 gungings, etc.) is relatively the same.

That's pretty much in the pocket for me with pie vids; a shot before the hit, a bit of the shot after the hit showing the coverage, but very quickly. True pie vid fans like me are gonna by that if it's quality. If you're not showing any of the coverage, that's fine and up to you - you're also losing sales.

1) Thanks for the kind words! And Rich ALWAYS needs more promotion. The WAM biz is cutthroat these days!

2) I was about to post about this anyway, but if you're a fairly new producer, I think you should ALWAYS be making trailers. When I started out, I was making a trailer for every "volume" (cuz we were still in the DVD era then), and doing additional ones beyond that to celebrate ridiculous milestones like "Our First Ten Volumes" or whatever.
But I tell ya, they worked. And once YouTube became a thing, they started circulating there, and basically functioned as free promotion for years. Even recently, I uploaded a couple (very old) trailers because people wanted to see them again. Not saying they were amazing or anything, but they stuck in people's memories, and that's what you need.

3) If you're doing a trailer, don't give away the store. But don't tease completely. (Unless you've been around forever, then you can probably do this.) Highlight the stuff that makes your video unique. Lately, I'm lazy with trailers, but I WILL post the first few minutes of a scene because that gives you a feel for the model, and her personality, and the setup, and those are the things that REALLY close the sale. (Assuming everyone knows what your mess is usually like.)

And yes, Robby and I disagree on this, but as I've argued with him before, you could sell a LOT of copies of a vid in 2000 with just a couple of clean pics and nothing else. I don't believe that's the case anymore, and hasn't been for many years. (Although one producer who's consistently top-ranked on the UMD is experimenting with just teasing glamour shots of his models and nothing else... Not even actual screengrabs... So maybe things are coming full circle??)

I think one point we need to make, is there are 2 levels of producers here. Amateur like myself, and professional. Amateur usually have day jobs, much less money to invest and know nothing about filming/cameras. We're mostly wammers who are recording ourselves. Other producer's are more professional, have much more money invested in what they're producing and have more resources to give better presentation.

I get it, this is a business, and we should be doing what the customer wants if we want them to buy from us. But in my experience, it's never gotten me more sales to take suggestions from customers. I'll put in the extra effort, and it still doesn't sell. And I'm working hard, spending hours, ALL DAY, filming something that I'm really proud of, and working another entire day cleaning up from, and then working another entire day editing, just to be told what I'm doing wrong to lose your business. It feels like there is no respect for the kind of effort that we're already putting into what we're doing.

There's so many producers and models who do it better, I'm not here to compete for their business because I can barely afford to make what I'm making. And I really want people to understand, as a model, I have the reality of the way I look as what I sell as a product for you. Part of my work is being legitimately judged as pretty enough or sexy enough for you. And the bigger reality is I'm not making very much sales, so for me it's not something I can change if you don't want to buy from me. I'm definitely not doing this because I'm profiting off of it, I'm doing it because I really love WAM. And other amateur producers like myself are here trying very hard with very little because the passion is so strong.

Well said, Creamy! Enjoy your life, and don't worry about the naysayers.