Hi.

I just was wondering why the thread was deleted, i think it highlighted some much important issues that should be discussed in the open forum, did the thread break any rules? I don't know, as i took a short break from here over the last hour.

I agree completely.

One thing i have noticed over the years is how this site differs if you upset one the the "respected" higher ups on this site. Im 99.9% sure the thread would still be here if it was about a website that wasnt so close to the owner/top moderators

Agreed with earlier statements made. I'm not sure if the person who posted it deleted or someone else did but I feel there should be some criticism on some stuff and the person is entitled to if they are doing so in a respectful way. The producer may have not liked the public criticism and could've complained to have it removed.

I was the original poster and was NOT responsible for taking it down.

I've worked with MG several times, always had very clear and prompt communication. Just keep in mind here that there are two sides to every story.

This is very true. So would it not of been better for Mg or someone to tell that side of the story? Could even lock the thread after so people cant comment. Then at least it gives people an idea of what went on and who to believe.

Right now it looks like its getting brushed under the carpet and ignored

And can i just add im not accusing MG of anything in this. Just the frustration where there seems to be times the rules get thrown out the window when it suits

You know perfectly well that MessMaster shut it down and you know exactly why.

And the plot thickens!!!!!

In fairness MG DID put their version of what happened. I have no wish to become involved in a dispute between two parties, particularly when there is an element of "He said,- She said" about it.
Short of getting MM or any other mod to take on arbitration between the two parties, it is sufficient that the complaint was aired and replied to. It should not be open for others, not involved to stick in their two penn'orth. The dispute will have to be settled one way or another outwith this open forum. I just hope that all parties are satisfied with the result. Although given the nature of things and developments since, perhaps neither will be.

Very sad.

I think if you have a bad experience with any service provider, not just a WAM producer, you have the right to forewarn future customers via social media. It could be Twitter, Yelp, FB, the UMD, whatever. I think the fear of such a reprisal helps you get better service. This is ESPECIALLY true on the UMD where the customer base is so small. Word of mouth is EXTREMELY valuable, whether it be good or bad.

Obviously, it is the responsibility of the custom producer to do the best job possible and make his/her customers happy. BUT it is also important the upset customer try to deal with it privately with the producer. And if that fails, then resort to the UMD. And if you do so, do with it some professionalism.

I think the admin should only take down such threads if the customer's argument is irrational, profanity-laden and/or unfair.

Sweet avatar/message synergy here

It's not THAT sad.

Not sure what I can or can't say at this point and the last thing I want is to get kicked off the forum. I think I missed several posts before the old thread was taken down including the response from the producer. Really appreciate the comments and PMs from everyone. Frustrating situation for sure but not much can be done at this point. Time to enjoy the long weekend.

Hope you all do to!

I know the first part because, but I have no idea of the second. This was nuked before I could see anything after my last comment which I thought was a decent devil's advocate post.

No producer, model, admin, mod, or user should be above criticism. But things need to be kept respectful.

I didn't read the negative review, but I have a question. How long does it usually take to get a custom done? I ask because I ordered one (not saying from
Whom), and was told it would be done within a week, after the week was over I was told it was filmed but had to be edited and would take a few days. After another week I was told it was never filmed and the model changed her mind but another model would do it. Wasn't my first choice, but I'm very patient and kind and agreed. It's been another week and I haven't heard from anyone for a couple of days. Is this normal? If it is, I'll continue being patient and hoping for the best.

I didn't want to stir anything by making this thread... But i just don't think it sends the right message to the community if you deleted a thread like that... I would agree if it was just one persons angst and personal issues with a producer...
But as we all know, there was more than one negative custom experience regarding MG on that original thread, that one hasn't been talked about

NO! that is not normal i'm afraid and certainly not something i would expect from any producer. If you have paid hundreds of pounds for your special, brilliant and unique idea... and it doesn't work out for whatever reason... those reasons and circumstances are sometimes out of the producers control. we all understand that, things happen.

But in those circumstances the producer should be prompt with his or her communication to you and give you a full refund if things will not or have not happened to the way you want them to as this is your custom and your money.

As i have said before, i've not had any bad experiences with producers that i have worked with on customs. I've had a few set backs with things like change of models or reschedule of shooting days... But the producer has always communicated with me efficiently and understood how important the customer is in this process. kept me up to date and always offered me a refund possibility if the shoot doesn't go ahead or changed in ways that i do not like

I have never ordered a custom, but I know that turn around varies greatly from producer to producer. For instance Leon has paid staff and probably works a Mon-Fri 9-5 kind of thing.

A smaller producer like Ariel though is a single mom who shoots around her schedule. She's a one woman machine.

Things in the latter type of situation can create more instances of "shit happens". This includes, family situations, personal things coming up, health, etc.

Now, if you were told one week and it's been three and you have gotten conflicting information, ignored and no product, I'd at least be concerned. I don't know what kind of contract (if any) you have with the production party so "being patient" in the worst case scenario may be your only recourse.

But on the other side, did you strictly keep to your end of the bargain? Payments, scripts, other info etc. at the right times and places?


Exactly my point with my last post too. This holds especially true if this site "vets" a producer for customs and then a number of people get screwed by them in some way. It doesn't matter who the specific producer is; it makes UMD look bad too.

So there is a greater discussion to be had here than just the OP's original gripe. Because as things stand, there are no other tools for the consumer to use than word of mouth and publicly posting their experiences. There are no penalties for whoever the producer in question is because they already have the money.

+1

Two users have written about their bad experience with a custom produced by 1 producer. Both users wrote that the proposed script was not followed and that the communication had neither been good, nor open.

There may be a 100 reasons why a custom production goes wrong.
True, there are 2 sides to every story too.

But blaming the customer who ordered should be the last thing to do.
Also, an honest and open communication is alfa and omega.

Fortunately, most custom productions seem to result in good experiences and happy reviews. But if only good experiences are allowed to be published in this forum, ...

This really is an important topic, when you think about it it is almost surprising that we don't have a topic or some kind of sub forum for custom customers to discuss/provide feedback.

At the end of the day depending on all kind of scenarios people may have had only ever ordered customs that went well, some might be unlucky and repeatedly end up with disappointment others might have a mixed bag.

But somewhere for people to just say, "Hey, this was my experience etc etc" and others can post their own allowing new customers to have a look through and come to their own opinion on the things.

Of course everything should always be respectful, I suspect this is the case for many people here but in my real life line of work I have a job whereby even if someone is rude/disrespectful to me I have to respond courteously to them always. and that should be the case here.

He said/She said arguments are not something we want. But on the face of it if people are allowed and potentially encouraged to post in a thread some thoughts the good and the bad will hopefully even out to give a fair reflection on that producer, as currently producers have a lot of power/fan base but they also have a lot more to lose.

You might even end up with people who had a disappointing video, but then realising themselves that actually the producer wasn't the right person to make the video.

A lot of producers do offer customs and it is made very obvious via their profiles etc, so you would expect the other half of the transaction to have a way of expressing their opinion, because i'm sure people would also praise customs they have received or the way a producer handled things equally as well, which if done correctly could lead to more producers receiving custom requests.

(Bit of a ramble, but I've only just woken up so apologies if this doesn't make sense...)

I only saw one side of the story before the post was removed.
Therefore I can only side with the OP.
It might have been fairer to lock the thread rather than remove it.

Wonder what Regis would think.

In future, to ensure the protection of your complaints, be a RealDoll holding a jug of maple syrup. Your posts will then be protected as if they were ancient Egyptian artefacts.

There was nothing offensive about the original thread, it was simply a review. There are countless positive custom reviews on this forum. Are the mods implying positive reviews are allowed but negative ones aren't?

I'm a little bit sad to read this thread, partly because I've spent time in contact with MG when organising a session a few years ago. I did find him professional and easy to deal with.

However, posts in this thread are precisely why I've never bothered with ordering a custom from anyone. Unlike sessions, the entire cost has to be paid up front, which leaves you with no recourse if it goes wrong, and without a sub-forum (or even a stickied post) any feedback sinks down the forum very quickly and gets lost. It's hard to keep track of who's done a good custom and who hasn't when it's not in an easy-to-find place.

Most of all though, it's disappointing to see the whole thread had been deleted from last night. I read the first few posts, and now it's gone. I can completely understand individual posts being deleted if they caused an issue, but this just makes the whole situation look a bit fishy.

Just want to point out that there IS a place to leave reviews of customs for those that advertise them on UMD, for example: https://messygirl-video-vault.umd.net/about I assume that producers can't remove good faith negative reviews.

My message to Beantwn when I deleted the thread:
---
Deleted May 25, 2019 16:45pm by Messmaster.
Reason: Sorry I'm deleting this thread as there are real real names being thrown around and I'd like to understand what's going on. MG says they have contacted you and a resolution is underway but please contact me if you have any remaining issues or if you feel a public announcement is still appropriate.
---

I came to this thread after it got flagged for someone using someone else's real name (Mr MG used Beantwn's real name in a response). The rest of the thread was actually okay, but as I understood it, all parties were talking again. In those cases, I normally remove the post and let the resolution continue in private. In my delete response above, I asked Beantwn to contact me if he thought a public announcement was still needed, and we have an inbox conversation going now.

I do not shade any producers from negative reviews. That was the whole point of the Trusted Customs Producers reviews section that I built. Posting negative reviews on the forum is okay and sometimes needed, but they quickly fall off the bottom, and then who are you warning? The reviews section is permanent as well as anchored to each store. Beantwn is always welcome to write a review there, no matter the outcome of this particular situation. https://messygirl-video-vault.umd.net/about

Anybody who has questions about why something was deleted can just ask. I'll tell anybody who wants to know. I may update the forum to leave a deletion remark instead of forum posts just disappearing. Because left to their assumptions, people will normally assume the worst. I make no money from Messygirl's customs, and have no skin in the game with those private transactions. I'm only trying to figure how to make people happy.

I'll respond to a few things:
>One thing i have noticed over the years is how this site differs if you upset one the the "respected" higher ups on this site. Im 99.9% sure the thread would still be here if it was about a website that wasnt so close to the owner/top moderators

I do not do preferential treatment here. Ask any of the "top" producers if I shy away from moderating them and deleting their posts just like anybody else. This particular thread was removed because of something Mr MG said, not to protect Mr MG. I'm on vacation with family and when I saw that I just removed the whole thread and contacted the parties involved. It seems they are getting to resolution, but after the fact if Beantwn or anybody else wants to post about it, or write an actual review for the Customs section, or even revive the deleted thread (with real name removed) that's fine with me. Also, mods: You can see deleted responses again. They were not removed on purpose!

> Short of getting MM or any other mod to take on arbitration between the two parties, it is sufficient that the complaint was aired and replied to. It should not be open for others, not involved to stick in their two penn'orth.

Well that's what I do. I arbitrate between customers and customs producers all the time. But Beantwn had not contacted me, and he hadn't inboxed Messygirl either. This is why I said I wanted to find out more about what's going on. Disputes like these can start generating misunderstandings that can be headed off sometimes with just a few inbox messages and that hadn't been attempted. I think all parties should at least get the chance to resolve the issue privately first before putting each other on blast, and I wasn't sure that was attempted by everyone.

> Not sure what I can or can't say at this point and the last thing I want is to get kicked off the forum.

I never want there to be a chilling effect on what you think you need to say here. If I have a problem with you, I will contact you directly on it.

> when you think about it it is almost surprising that we don't have a topic or some kind of sub forum for custom customers to discuss/provide feedback....omewhere for people to just say, "Hey, this was my experience etc etc"

You can see all stores that are Trusted Customs Producers, as well as read and write reviews here: https://umd.net/stores/customs Every store has its own reviews section. I am the only one who approves or denies those reviews. I do publish every positive and negative review if it was done respectfully. Beantwn and everyone else who has had customs done is welcome to write reviews!

> Wonder what Regis would think.

I removed him from the site. He will never be welcomed at UMD again.

> There was nothing offensive about the original thread, it was simply a review.

You're right. I removed the whole thread because of his real name being exposed, and because we were all now communicating in private, with the allowance that he could repost publicly again if needed. Until I figured out what was going on, I didn't want things getting out of hand, as they do with these customs issues. Now that I know more, if he wants the original thread put back, I wouldn't have an issue with that and I've told him as much.

Peace,
Messmaster

Thanks Messmaster for the explanation on the thread deletion.

Just to pick on the reviews bit, useful to know is probably something that should be used more frequently.

I do think it might be worth having some kind of topic/sub-forum, maybe pinned somewhere just for custom discussions and chat as people might not feel like doing a full review etc.
I can see why you might rather just keep it as it is currently, but just a thought.

I too, i like idea of a sub forum for Customs/sessions

Thanks Messmaster for exampling that decision and hopefully things can be resolved with Beantwn... But also the other UMD member that shared his negative experience too

> Wonder what Regis would think.

I removed him from the site. He will never be welcomed at UMD again.

Oh Boy, what did he do now?

Made a dark but accurate joke satirising how much harrassment female forum members receive which goes completely unpunished. This was then deliberately taken out of context to imply he was the one that had somehow aggressively trangressed against a female poster, even though it was mostly because his critical, weary (but always solidly well-intentioned and moral) irreverence had embarrassed Messmaster by drawing focus on the fairly critical flaw of untrammelled harrassment within the UMD's ecosystem.

It is of course easier to whitewash the problem rather than letting anybody even hint at the existence of oceans of constant, offensive crap littering the inboxes of any female forum member with a profile photo. This is going to backfire one day though, as for various reasons the age of budgeted 'producers' is coming to a gradual but very obvious end, to be replaced by more-and-more individual self-shooters, and as a larger and larger percentage of these end up being the very same women who *have* previously received "packets of dick pics" and floods of stalkerish PMs, one day they will repay the UMD's disinterest in their online safety by moving their business somewhere else.

Noticed there are some posts vanished from this thread as well, ones which alleged some quite serious things about a UMD-affiliated client, now completely vanished. There are some pretty depressing censorship patterns forming here which I think we can all see. Never mind, this will probably get deleted soon as well.

Or... we could take a drastic turn left here and start to prioritise the welfare of the women on here who actually "run" this industry and are more essential to it than every producer, webmaster and moderator put together. Most big decisions here are taken for business reasons. Well this *is* a business reason.