I want to make it clear that nothing being done is supposed to be a punishment or retribution. We are looking at what is the point of a Leon departure, and do those reasons overlap with anything other producers are doing. If Leon is potentially present during the shoots, or present with the models in his studio, or if he is still financially benefitting from content sold on this site, is that really consistent with our reasons for not allowing MostWam to be here? I use the phrase "guilt by association" to point to these things, not PR worries.



In my opinion that would work. Looking for guidance on this tho

Good faith discussion. I have no answers for you. But if it has to be banned...

My logic is based on first-order separation only, that means Leon and if you must... include his company. Second-order folks, people who use his location and resources are not "complicit" in his crime. If you don't have any stopping principle, then this can go on forever.

For example, let's say we boycott businesses operating within the Xinjiang region (the uyghur genocide place)... ok fine. Do you want to apply that same logic to the business that do business with this questionable group? What about the businesses who do business who do business with the questionable group? And for those who think it's a good idea, then you won't be buying stuff period... since 90% of the stuff is Made in China, and it can probably be tied back to the Xinjiang/uyghur in 2 degrees of separation.

I think about this a lot. Are the people threatening to leave UMD over Leon, also boycotting Youtube? He has content there. Or is the boycott reserved for the smaller intimate communities?

To stay centered, we've got to keep coming back to the actual reasons for our decisions. At this point I think the goal is a real separation from the MostWam crew, not just a visual one, and not just one to satisfy some public perception. We keep it 100% on every decision whether it was the right one or not.

Of course I hope that we can use the market to sort this out, i.e. people voting with their wallets, because that is the most democratic way (go read one of my first posts, it's there).

But I'm not a fool. I know with the immense pressure, there will need to be a pound of flesh and Leon is the obvious target. I'm not kissing MM's ass, you see I clearly disagree with him on this.

If you want to take me up on it, do it in the other thread.

Yeah but the clear difference to me is here he's a major producer who makes money from the site and his own stuff is geared for this particular base of people, while on Youtube he's just a grain of sand on a beach.

"I get it. But the discussion has been extremely beneficial to us."

Who's us? This seems like an interesting conclusion to come to considering the hurt and harm this has caused - to the people who have had experiences like this before, to see once again people debating what's an acceptable threshold of assault, oh he pled guilty therefore it's less of an issue than a "real" guilty verdict?

Sure it's been beneficial to see how Leon has been twisting his story and changing details every time, and to see who's stood up for him despite everything, but I don't think there's been any shred of remorse or apology to folks who've had to relive some dark stuff because of this.

How will you handle this better in future when this inevitably happens again?

Thank you
I've messaged MM to say moving forward there would be no possibility of using that same studio space or for the owner having any connection with my work. All collaborative work currently offered on here would be removed from sale via umd.

If that's not satisfactory for the comfort of the community at large then I will try to understand and move on to a different chapter. Looking for a real job will be top of the list!!

Showing respect in Mm's thread but not that of a woman leaving the forum. Is it because MM is a man???

My personal suggestion would be for Wamgame/MrWam to stay. As I said in the other thread, this should be about protection (for models) rather than punishment (for producers).

a) If Leon's not present when Wamgame/MrWam are filming, he's not going to be a risk.

b) If Leon is straight, and all the models are male, I don't think they're at risk of being groped.

c) If Leon was a shareholder in company X, I wouldn't call for that company to be banned here. I.e. I've got no moral problem with him profiting (in terms of dividends) from that company selling videos. Similarly, if he took a back seat at MostWAM (not actually present in the studio during filming), that wouldn't put anyone in danger, even if he remained as the company director and sole shareholder.

That said, other people might take a harder line than me.

This.

Of all of the noise, the legal debate, the misogny, the chatter, the chiming in, the notes positivity, the name calling, the departures, the dummy spitting, the political chest beating:

A model had been preyed on. Mistake or not at the time, repentant or not in the aftermath, that is abundantly clear it is the truth, admitted by two key figures from MostWam who only just spoke up because it had been outed (And blimey, they did go around the houses a bit with it). There is one victim here, that model at the end of the day. Sorry if there is collateral but, it's been what, three days? Beds were made, and led in.

Sadly, this probably won't be the last time. UMD is a big place. Some people on here the past two days, god forbid, wouldn't know a moral compass it seems if it hit them in the face.

So, I agree, how will this be handled better in the future?

(Obviously rhetorical somewhat for now but this should be avoided from ever happening again. A clear line obviously needs to be spelled out to some here who have only the two brain cells on what is right and wrong, what is important and not.)

Someone earlier said this 'used' to be a nice place. Someone else then said it never was. I'm not sure which I agree with (more), but it's slowly becoming obvious that perhaps some rules, and lines need to be updated and reaffirmed.

Including how it reacts to serious allegations, and how they are investigated because the sad fact it, in this fetish and trade it probably will happen again. And could do again here, so how can this place 'be better' next time?

No because she was politicizing this issue and applying pressure to UMD/MM to serve her ideologies. Had it been a dude, I would have said the same.

Apologies if I'm missing it but has there been any discussion on what steps are being put forward to prevent anything like this happening again?


I also think comparisons of UMD to platforms like YouTube are disingenuous. Beyond differences in scale being differences in kind, Youtube isn't a self styled community where higher moderation standards are expected. Not to mention that Youtube tends to avoid running ads against adult or age restricted content taking money out of the equation.

There's a quote I heard a while back: "process is scar tissue". I.e. when you see that an organisation has various policies in place, that's a reaction to something that's happened before. (Not necessarily at that specific place, but somewhere, e.g. having a disaster recovery plan because other companies struggled after a fire/flood.)

In this context, I've made a few suggestions in the big thread. Just to recap them here:

1. The UMD should contact all store owners, asking whether they (or any of their staff) have been convicted as sex offenders. If the answer is yes, repeat what's just happened with MostWAM. If they don't reply within a reasonable amount of time, suspend their store until they do reply. If they say no, proceed to step 2.

2. Change the terms and conditions for store owners, so that they have to notify the UMD within a certain amount of time (e.g. 7 days) of any new convictions. This notification should also include a statement that all models will be notified before filming with that person present.

3. Change the terms and conditions for store owners, so that they need some kind of safeguarding policy. I don't think there's any standard for this, and if a model is running their own store (e.g. filming themselves in the bath) then most of the potential issues won't be applicable, but just having *something* in place would be a good start.

Maybe all store owners should also do a risk assessment, e.g. for physical injury from slipping on a puddle of gunge. That's not related to recent events, but if the policies are changing anyway then this might be an opportunity to head off problems before they occur.

That all sounds reasonable to me. I'm not a producer, and don't know enough about the business in the fetish. But I have worked in media, and been a manager of a business in the past decade. Any of the bigger producers who are serious, will have their own safeguards and risk assements in place I reckon, as well as consent forms etc, etc. Most will if decent. If covers their back, and the models.

But again I don't know anything of that, only my very different real life experiences! Cover your back, basically, always.

But I think that first suggestion is a fantastic one. We should not have criminals working on this site, no matter what people think of legal systems etc. Because that puts not only models at risk, but anyone who has bought content or potentially worked with them, at risk too.

Whether you go and meet them, or simply by a product - if something like this comes out, nothing is off the table in which can be used as evidence and looking into.

Extreme scenario but say if you ordered a custom, and an offence may or may not have been commited during the filming of said custom, but it comes out in the wash after you have it. I mean, possibly that puts the customer at risk, as they may bew contacted by the authorities? Sure they haven't done anything wrong, but perhaps they have to explain to their other half, or family, or friends why two members of the police showed up at their door after trying to get in contact, leaving messages at work.

Again, extreme example but food for thought when criminals and such are in and amongst us in a sexual fetish site. So, I agree as I say with your suggestion: Ask producers. If they refuse to answer in an amount of time as you suggest, disable their stores until they do.

Transparency is something we probably haven't had much the past few days on here, maybe, months or years now. Maybe it's time we had more of it with producers, as at the end of the day, its out money we are giving to them

Leon has never had any input into the MrWam-Wamgame shoots nor has he ever been present or taken part in the shoots. I simply organised the shoots using the studio facilities and payments from umd were made using Leon's company because that's the way the store was set up three years ago. Obviously nothing would be going via him from now on. He kept half of anything earned in lieu of studio usage and supplying the gunge

Thank you for that clarification. I understand the gravity of the situation and I know we have to think carefully about what actions we take at this point. I wasn't aware I was only addressing "PR" worries, but obviously my concerns are for everyone's safety. I'm not trying to minimize the situation. I'm simply done with acting in anger and I'm focusing on more compassionate ways to work through this, I hope we can heal together as a community. I'm also operating on as little sleep as I'm sure you are, I slept maybe an hour, hour and a half last night so I'm a little delirious. And with that I'm dippin out for the evening. I need some self care and a 24 hr sanity break. I hope you get that too.

I get your sentiment but we didn't assault this victim, and blaming us for discussing how to handle it is like gaslighting. What should we have done, not allowed any community discussion? Who would that have helped, and how would that have helped us move forward? Like I said, this was painful for all of us, but I fail to see how blocking the discussion would have been helpful.


This was a chance for them to be set straight. If we block these types of difficult conversations then we are contributing to the division of this world where everybody only sees what they agree with, and confirmation bias reinforces their own viewpoint. That's why we're already so divided in this world. We NEED arguments and debate! Shutting it down looks easier but more ultimately it's much more harmful. I ask everyone to put in the hard work of listening, reasoning, debating, and ultimately learning from each other.


Looking for advice on this. That's one of the points of an open debate.

When we talk about second-order folks, complicity in the assault/battery is not the issue. We are instead talking about a decision to take reasonable steps to sever Leon's financial relationship with the community, by way of any people who foreseeably (though perhaps unintentionally) undermine that effort. 'Reasonable steps' and 'foreseeable' may or may not be 'stopping principles', but they serve the same function in the practice of a small community regulating its own affairs.

I'm not sure there are any ways to prevent this. I don't have control, or even personally know most of the producers on here. UMD shoots no content. How could I realistically prevent some producer, somewhere in the world, from grabbing their model's tit?


So bigger corporate sites with lower standards get a pass?

Thank you for your explanation and replies to this thread and others. Once again showing that you are very consistent with the way you handle things.

As far as I am concerned in the future this should set the precedence. If you sexually assault a model during their time as an employee of yours it should be handled the same. No debate about no nothing. This situation has presented the option for debate and discussion about the topic. As you pointed out the main concern with everyone was the safety of the community as a whole.

I hope that the organizations like Wamgame/Mr Wam are able to set up shop someplace where they can be independent of Leon and all of the things that went on there. Fallout is fallout and I understand their situation and how shitty it is they got caught where they did. I also understand the need to cut all ties to all things Leon. It is a very rude awakening when you find out the kind of people that you are in business with.

With the thread and locking. I think what became the main thread should have remained locked with a post from MM about the situation being investigated and the secondary thread be made the main discussion thread. That way all of the information could be kept in one thread instead of two separate ones. There was some confusion created with both threads active and people replying to both. I think that in the future when things are left up for community discussion and input there should be a thread separate for that from the initial thread.

I hope in time that the people who have been the most affected by this can heal. Not just Leon's victim, but the people in our community that have been triggered by this. When you are a victim of something in the realm of SA it can be triggered by any number of things and can have any number of consequences that cannot be foreseen at the time. I hope that the people who have been impacted are seeing someone that can help them and that they can try to get back to what they knew as normal.

For fuck's sake people, is it REALLY so hard to understand that people, regardless of gender or honestly ANY reason, are NOT objects for you to enjoy?

No means no.
Stop means stop.
And just as importantly: Not hearing "no" doesn't mean "yes" either. Ask about boundaries first.

And if your mentality is such that the reason you shouldn't sexually abuse someone is that you're "afraid of getting caught", that's still not a very good mentality. That means you're putting concerns of how you'll end up looking to the law or a community over how somebody will feel after the fact.

Stop ignoring how people feel about you touching them. Don't do these things without full, explicit consent first.

I get that UMD isn't on site and cannot vet the actions of all members and publishers. Bad things will happen. What initially surprised me was when I saw the Bristol Post article was from March of 2022 and this was the first anyone was hearing. Its worrying that no-one felt empowered to say anything.

Lets work on some form of whisleblowing mechanism. Spell it out in the TOS what the procedure for moderating situations like this are so that it is clear there is no grey area. I'm sure there is paperwork needed for producers to set up a store and post videos, add a disclosure duty there, or guidelines on appropriate interactions as a producer. Isn't that what the store owners forum is for?

Will any of that stop bad things happening? No, but it goes someway to building a culture less likely to lead to bad things. I think the threads showed Leon was in some doubt if he had actually crossed the line. Well if its discussed more its more people can be in less doubt where the line is, and can't claim it has moved.

As for the larger platforms point. MM you know there is content that flys on Youtube that doesn't fly here. They have some pretty well documented issues with moderation and content. Big tech does not get a pass in any conversation of this vain. But despite the similarities there are considerable differences between the two platforms, and besides this conversation is about UMD. If it helps I'll send a letter to Susan Wojcicki at youtube about their lapse standards.

If a decision has not already been set in stone with regard to "guilt by association" (specifically wamgame, etc.), would encourage you not to commit a version of "sunk cost fallacy" here--that is to say--Any past financial benefits are likely to have already been fully realized from use of studio space. It's hard to see how any future financial benefits from costs already sunk on production of past scenes are likely to be derived from these sales.

I think the important thing here is to get commitments from third-parties not to allow any *future* financial benefits for the person in question. It's hard enough for the LGBT community to get male scenes. Would hate to see a producer in this space get sent to an early grave for someone else's actions

How many people here do you think are frequent readers of the Bristol Post?

It may not be fair, but I think the difference can be found in the expectations of each site's audience. We know you're down here on the ground with the rest of us - you see what we see, you're directly involved, and you provide more than just a place for producers to host and sell their stuff. We can actually talk to you, like we're doing here, and expect a response from a real person.

On the other hand, social media companies, particularly Youtube, we know give not a single shit about concepts like community. Their owners are so far removed from their userbase that it makes the distance between galaxies seem negligible. They are overtly driven solely by ad revenue, and users therefore know that they have nearly zero ability to impact the way the companies and sites are run.

So as far as giving us a place to belong goes, UMD is orders of magnitude better than generic social media. Unfortunately, that comes with a set of higher expectations. It may not seem fair now because of the pressure being put on you from all sides, but in the long run the personal touch we can get here benefits everyone involved.

That said, I certainly encourage those who might want to inform Youtube of this incident. There may not be a chance that anything will happen as a result, but it does give us consistency in our position, as well as probably being the right thing to do for the victims in all of this.

I can see how difficult this is.

I think it seems really unfortunate that the result of this is that other smaller wam producers who used the same studio can't sell their content on UMD, while those who are more guilty can continue since they have their own site & infrastructure. like MrWam and Wamgame are totally blameless in this, so I hope something can be done to find a way to sanction mostwam without impacting them.

To me it also seems really unfortunate to ban content shot in that studio.
Let me pose a hypothetical.

Imagine that a community member ran a store that sold slime ingredients at a low cost. the slime was high quality and distinctive mark, and its composition was a trade secret.
If that person then turned out to be a sex offender and got banned, would we then remove every scene featuring the unique slime that person sold? Would we ban new content that uses the slime? Would we ban producers from sourcing that slime outside of UMD?

I think that the answer for the slime should be no, as UMD can't review every video to check the slime.
UMD Bans are limited in scope to stopping that person from using the site. Messmaster and UMD can't be responsible for stopping producers doing business outside the site.

Kind of like how if I arrange a custom outside of this site with a producer, it has nothing to do with UMD as customs are a separate thing.

How can we as a community expect UMD to police who is shooting in which studio, and who is financially benefitting from which content?

Surely if a producer with a totally separate account happens to shoot content in a studio that looks identical to the mostwam studio but has a totally separate payment identity not associated with anyone under attainder, that separate producer shouldn't have their content banned.
individual customers who know they must have rented the space from mostwam and dislike that can not buy, but to actually ban the scene based on where it was shot due to an imagined business relationship seems difficult to enforce fairly.

It seems like with this logic, wamgame and Mr.Wam could still make use of the mostwam studio, while whoever from mostwam was banned would be fully banned from participation in UMD life.

Great work MM on managing the biggest mess I've seen touching this community in it's 25 years.. I of course agree with the sanctions and have all my heart with the victims.

My empathy is also with the collateral victims, like wamgame. I don't watch male wam, but I'm an Ally and can really feel the suffering my brothers can have in this situation. I see lots of negativity when people are proposing mitigation that can allow some 2nd degree sub-contractor work.. Some saying it's either our Dick or wallet .. in the case of Wamgame I have neither.. just empathy for the guys that in the end rented a studio.

I'm sure it's been discussed behind the doors, but we had a similar situation in Quebec a few years back where the owner of just for laughs was convicted with sexual misconduct and forced to sell all his shares, since his association with the Just for Laughs company was causing lots of collateral damage with 100s of employees, sub-contractors.. and a good portion of the entertainment industry in Quebec. By selling his share the company survived and lots of collateral victims were spared.

https://montrealgazette.com/business/local-business/gilbert-rozon-selling-shares-in-just-for-laughs/wcm/4b378757-557a-4ebe-8018-e173e4f613d4/amp/

I think besides wamgame their are more collateral victims with this difficult situation, and I have empathy for everyone involved. Would forcing the sell of Leon to a well screened new owner be a possible solution to limit the tsunami that is happening. It makes sense for producer to team up to save on production cost.. the next time something like this happens having clear lines on where the cleaning starts and ends will be important.

Sending some warm love to all of us, we've all lost something in the last couples days.

I personally always scan obscure locals papers overseas to see if there's news about people who I only know under their screennames.

Jammy, that's some ridiculous shit.

Thank you for the compassionate point of view.
I won't be filming at the studio again, but just for information, I have filmed there on just six occasions this year. Three times Al was filming and 3 times I did it myself. Just me and the models present on site. It's a real shame for them not to have their scenes released after all their hard work - and all models know just how exhausting this type of work is. And yes of course it would help me to recoup the losses I will otherwise make.

Have you contacted any other producers with studios, even if only small ones? Messyworld/Liquid X is a possibility as is Candy Custard possibly. I don't know what the geography is like over there for you, but the possibilities in the UK are far more clustered than say in the US.

I'm sorry this is affecting you as well and wish you the best in hopefully being able to pick up and continue onward.