This started off as part of the "Tumblr Falls" thread but that's really a different subject and seems a bit unfair to hijack it, so starting this as a new thread instead. Link to original thread: https://umd.net/forums/tumblr-falls

Short version: Age verification is coming, and sites that don't have it will be blocked from UK consumer broadband access the same way copyright violating sites already are. The UMD may or may not implement age verification, being hosted in the US it's under no obligation to do so, but if it doesn't it will be blocked (it's already on the UK's general adult sites list), so anyone who wants to maintain access should probably be looking at secure VPN services to bypass their broadband supplier's filters.


That's odd - none of the age verification (A/V) blocking is in place yet. At the moment the only sites that should be being blocked are the ones for copyright violation, Pirate Bay etc, and child abuse images (and sites?) notified by the IWF. Regardless of what scanning for ad targeting purposes ISPs may be doing, they aren't, other than for people who've left the default adult filters on, blocking adult websites. Can you provide any further details of the blocking/unblocking of C4S, or is it in on-going legals?

I know the adult filters do work as every now and then my mobile phone service forgets that I've enabled adult content and blocks the UMD for a few hours until the system reinstates my filter opt-out. I'm guessing it's when they have to reboot part of their main web cache and it then has to re-load the (probably enormous) list of subscribers who've opted out of the filters. I get round it by logging onto a VPN, which brings me out in the VPN provider's datacentre at server level, bypassing the consumer feed filtering systems at the phone company.

The section of the 2017 act that defines pornography is interesting, it basically defines "porn" as "anything produced primarily for the purposes of arousal, which is NOT extreme porn, AND which would, were it looked at by the video classification authorities, be either R18, OR 18 cert, OR 'not suitable to be classified'." I think that means that those of us with sites featuring only fully clothed models who aren't sexually fondling each other or playing with toys, can ignore it completely, as long as any scenes we do shoot of that nature are kept entirely on different sites, which will need A/V. So anyone who does do clothed-PG and also sexier stuff should have two sites (best on entirely different domains, hosted on different servers so IPs are divergent), and put A/V on the sexy one. I'm wondering how things like swimsuit filling will be classified by this regime though.

For anyone interested in the UK's legal definition of pornography, it's in Annex 1 of this PDF, starting on Page 16:
https://www.ageverificationregulator.com/assets/bbfc-guidance-on-age-verification-arrangements-october-2018-v2.pdf


No, not jobs, just the kind of people who like to stick their oar in sitting at home doing it for free. Here they're generally called "curtain twitchers", from standing behind the curtains spying on their neighbours to ensure no rule-breaking is going on. Don't think you can equate it with trying to root out pirates (for which extreme respect! ), though doubtless the puritans and prudes will try and do so.

The easy option here would be for UMD to make itself available to view if you are a member only. I certainly wouldn't be against that - even if you become a member you can do so without giving your name and details away to others. It's a quick workaround, presumably.

In the US at least erotica that isn't regarded as legally obscene is protected by the 1st Amendment (the Supreme Court has ruled on it several times), and in the UK there is a general acceptance that adults should be free to watch porn that isn't "extreme" (which has a fairly tight legal definition and mainly bans bestiality and actual abuse of people). The current furore is the result of the right wing press raising the issue of minors "stumbling across porn" by accident, which the age verification system is intended to prevent by making it illegal to have anything on a page that visitors who haven't age verified that legally counts as porn. There are exceptions for artistic works - while we're not quite as easy going about nudity as say the Germans are, it's not really a significant issue here - and things like health information, so in theory at least there won't be lots of breast cancer charity sites being accidentally swept up in the block.

But the government is going ahead with it, and that will continue even if the current administration falls, as this is something that has broad parliamentary approval. Unlike the US the UK has a permanent professional civil service, so a change of government doesn't generally cause any disruption to day to day stuff, ministers are appointed but the permanent undersecretaries and everyone else below them just carries on as before, gradually implementing the new polices as the new minister instructs them. I gather from news reports during the 2016 election that in the US entire departments can get all-new personnel when the president changes, so it takes a while for new people to shake down into their roles.

As a producer, I have two big worries from the introduction of age verification, and the automatic blocking of sites that don't have it, should the UMD not implement it:

1. The UK is basically 1/3 of the global market for WAM videos. So if the UMD gets blocked from most UK consumers, then we're all going to lose one third of our incomes. That will put some producers permanently out of business and reduce the amount those remaining can afford to produce.

2. If the UMD is blocked in the UK then UK producers, unless they have VPNs that bypass the block, will be unable to update or administer their download stores. The current filters don't stop things like FTP uploads, but if we can't access the site via web browsers we can't set up new releases.

How the UK block will work:

Consumers here mostly have broadband or mobile data accounts with huge national ISPs (Internet Service Providers). These connections come into the ISP's datacentres, and are then connected to the global internet via a series of routers and filtering equipment.

• There will be deep-packet inspection servers that can give higher priority to data packets from some services while relegating others to lower priority - so live TV services get priority and downloads from torrent sites are restricted to a small percentage of the available bandwidth.
• There will be filtering servers that block access to sites the law has banned - currently these mainly block pirate sites in response to court orders and child abuse images as identified by the Internet Watch Foundation (IWF).
• There will also be filtering servers that block all adult content to subscribers who have not opted-out of the default "no adult content" rules that the government mandated a couple of years ago. Users can unblock this by calling their provider and asking them to opt you out of the filter, and this will remain for accessing legal porn.
  
• And very soon, the existing filters that block pirate sites and IWF-flagged abuse images will have a third list of sites to block, any porn sites (anywhere in the world) that don't have an approved age verification system installed and/or show restricted content on pages that can be accessed by unverified visitors.

After passing through all these filters, the connections then connect to the ISP's main Internet backbone which connects to the global Internet.
For the tech-savvy, getting round the blocks will be relatively straightforward, just use a VPN which emerges from a server connected to the main backbone links, one level above the consumer filtering equipment. Datacentres that don't handle domestic consumer broadband won't need to have the filtering equipment installed, as hosted servers are generally not operated by children. Or use a VPN that emerges in another country, beyond the reach of UK filtering. But that does depend on having the skills to acquire and set up a VPN service.

It's not clear yet if this will affect the sites of those of us who only do fully clothed WAM, but it definitely will affect the UMD, as it's already on the UK's list of adults-only websites, and blocked to anyone who hasn't opted out of the default "all adult sites bocked" filters on mobile data connections.


No, that won't be enough - it would have to be a certified age verification system, like the one PornHub's owners have created, requiring at least credit card info to verify the user.

A VPN set too some where in the United States or else where would due the trick there not that expensive per month and your government wont see your traffic that way you can go where you please on the internet. Just a thought don't want to lose the folks from the UK.

It was originally supposed to come in during April 2018 (there were several threads here at the time, mainly I think in Off-Topic and/or the Producers forum), but it was rapidly realised the the BBFC (the UK's independent movie and video classification body) needed more time to properly work up the system and processes, at the time it was said to be being put off "till the end of the year", which is now, and Andy's spotted that various documents have been released and updates carried out to indicate it's coming sooner rather than later, though at this stage I don't know exactly when it will be implemented.

Brexit is tending to drown out all other news at the moment, so this could well come in unannounced and quite suddenly.

This will mean UMD will lose its Biggest Producer in "Mostwam", as it's a UK based company and produces daily content directly for users on UMD.

If this happens and UK based material and members are blocked this could well be the beginning of the end of UMD as we see it today.

UMD will live on, put it will have a HUGE cost!

As far as I know, nothing at the Mostwam empire is hosted IN the UK. Almost nobody here does that. Same for the EU after they idiotically imposed VAT on digital content a couple years ago. Pretty much everything (including the UMD and Vidown/Themothership/TheWamStore) is hosted in the US or Canada. Nothing will change on our end.

At Vidown, we no longer have content distribution servers in the UK or EU and probably never will again. Since I own and operate our own datacenter and have a direct connection to tier-1 backbone providers, I might have to look into running some VPN servers here if I can figure out how to limit the places they go to ONLY Vidown & the UMD. Definitely not going to allow anyone to use our bandwidth to stream shit from Pornhub or any other pirate site.

Re the VAT thing, it doesn't matter where the servers are, it's where the "controlling owner" is resident that matters. Which is why I'm still hosting the Saturation Hall servers in a datacentre here in Yorkshire - even if I shipped the lot to Vegas I'd still have to charge and pay VAT unless I emigrated myself too. Though in good news, the EU finally saw sense and in the new year a threshold of 10,000 EUR a year will apply to digital sales before VAT has to be charged. So lots of smaller outfits will be able to de-register and stop having to do VATMOSS returns every quarter, and small bands and authors will be able to sell digital content with a lot less hassle once more.

Love your VPN idea!

TBH I created this thread partly in the hope of pointing other UK users to get VPN services set up before it all kicks in, so people don't wake up in a few weeks or months time to find the UMD's vanished from most of the UK public internet.

Forgive my unfamiliarity with this topic, but would an age-checker like this one

https://ageverify.co/

not suffice?

These are very typical among more traditional vice sites (booze, smoking, etc.), and the company even markets itself to adult sites.

It requires the user to affirm their age, but not verify it further.

Good thought there. VPNs are literally a few bucks a month and give at least 1 extra layer of privacy, the ability to 'relocate' and appear elsewhere, plus some security - especially when traveling, using mobile / public hot spots, coffee shop / hotel wi-fi, etc. Overall, they might not help a lot, but sure don't hurt!

Affirmation isn't enough, the details of the kind of checks that are and are not acceptable are given in section 3 of the PDF linked below (page 9 onwards on my screen) but the basic outline is

3.Age-verification Standards
...
The use of age-verification in relation to the sale of age restricted goods and services online is well established. A range of solutions to age-verify online is currently available on UK-hosted pornography services. These solutions draw from numerous datasets including credit card, passport, driving licence and mobile phone age-verification. Age-verification is most frequently supplied through third party providers.

So basically for any solution to be accepted, it needs to cross-check with government or financial datasets.

https://www.ageverificationregulator.com/assets/bbfc-guidance-on-age-verification-arrangements-october-2018-v2.pdf

Of course initially this will only apply to visitors to sites from the UK so sites could implement verification that only kicks in when a visitor comes from a UK IP address, but I gather lots of other countries are watching with interest and if it's seen to work here, many others will soon follow the same route.

The full guidance so far issued is here: https://www.ageverificationregulator.com/faq - pull down the "Industry" and "Resources" menus to get the various information sections. Also note the large green "Report a website" link top-right, for now it just leads to a message saying "When the law comes into force, you will be able to report non-compliant websites to the BBFC using a form on this page.", so I guess we'll all be able to tell when it's actually kicked in when the reporting form appears on that page.

Wow, so every UK citizen's porn consumption is going to be linked directly to their real identity? Can't see that ever being abused for political purposes, no sire.

(I mean, come on - you know the UK government is totally going to be keeping tabs on all of this on their end.)

Done some more digging and it looks like there are plenty of other apps out there which will get the job done.

Also...

https://youtu.be/hD4RFjmlzcQ?t=44

The thing is, it will never ever be "seen to work" if it hits a courtroom. Genuine age verification is literally impossible over the internet. ALL current methods are easily defeated by a creative 6-year old. The only thing that is even remotely close is biometric ID and any method that is financially practical is also easily skirted. Even a high-end method like iris scanning can often be fooled with a photograph, latex model, or just ripping someone's eyeball out and thrusting it at the scanner

That's not to say that multiple equally-stupid countries won't also give it a go, but the first time someone cares enough to drag it into a courtroom and challenge the law itself, this particular emperor will be exposed as not only completely naked, but in possession of a sub-optimal manhood. (assuming the lawyers and judges involved aren't complete retards) Because that case will be brought by some pearl-clutching soccer mom who's innocent child easily bypassed the shitty and ineffectual "verification" system and was subsequently scarred for life by accessing transvestite donkey and quad-amputee dwarf bondage porn for 16 straight hours

Never underestimate the power of a soccer mom with a Starbucks latte, a mommy blog, and an "I'd like to speak to your manager" haircut . This steaming shitpile of idiocy is doomed to fail.

What they should have done is put the onus on the parents and ISPs to keep their stupid brats off the open internet without adult supervision in the first place.

Not entirely true. Having a server in the EU creates "nexus" for a foreign company and they are legally "doing business" there, which makes everything murky. That's grounds for enforcement of all kinds of legislation, not just the tax thing. The legal hassle of getting multiple exemptions is more expensive for a major company than just hiking the prices in that country and paying the tax. And that is more expensive that just pulling out of the country completely and waving a hearty "Go Fuck Yourself" on the way out

Massive companies like Google, Facebook, etc can't possible do that and provide a decent level of service. We are several orders of magnitude smaller and everything we do here at Vidown/TheMothership is entirely digital. By US law, local jurisdiction for digital content is determined by the location of the cash register, NOT the location of the buyer (much to the chagrin of EU pols who try to claim otherwise)

For now, that leaves us immune to most of the stupidity of the rest of the world. Which is good, because we have a ton of inbred, home-grown stupidity we have to deal with every fucking day. We really don't have time to deal with anyone else's

They admit that in the guidance, though they frame it as "determined teenagers will be able to get past it". It's one of those cases where "something must be done, this is something, so it shall be done", typical of political knee-jerk reactions to things.

But overall, the UK's block system does work, try accessing The Pirate Bay from a standard consumer broadband connection and see how far you get. And of course there is big money pushing this, including the owners of PornHub, who stand to make money twice, once from people viewing pirate content on their platform that's been blocked on its original source because the original site hasn't added age-verification, and again from selling their own, fully approved, age-verification solution. As ever, follow the money to see what's really going on.


I like the way you think.


That would probably apply in the US, but over here laws don't get challenged in court the way they do in the US, except in very extreme circumstances (think it's happened once this century), and even when they do, all that happens is the department in question changes its behaviour slightly while the politicians rush to patch whatever hole was exploited. The football mum who's 6 y/o managed to view the donkey-dwarf kink video will most likely get blamed for having left her VPN logged in without a child-lock on her device, as long as her ISP can prove their filter was working, there's no-one she can sue.


On that I agree with you completely, unfortunately it's not a position that wins votes, which is why we're where we are now.


All true and very helpful to US-based producers, as you once said the general reaction of the US to attempts to impose European taxes (I belive HMRC still want to talk to someone about some tea that ended up in the harbour in Boston? ) tends to be, entertaining. But for someone resident in the UK or EU, moving the servers overseas makes no difference, if we sell to UK/EU customers, we're stuck with the taxes.

Don't get me wrong, I hate this entire mess as much as you do. Only reason I started this thread (after Andy initially flagged up the recent changes - credit where it's due) is I just don't want to lose a third of my customers to government-mandated stupidity and prudishness.

I was also thinking of trying something like this as a solution (creating a VPN), though you're way ahead of me in the technical ability and skills to do that. If it turns out that it might be worthwhile path, please let me know how I can help?



I do not trust any 3rd party to usurp data from my visitors so it can be transmitted to some government. Who knows how securely they store this information (probably not very), and who else will eventually see it (legit folks, hackers). Bottom line is that it necessarily ends up with more exposure for our users, and I'll only be implementing it as the absolute last resort. I'm currently researching the best way to go.

Thanks DM1 and Soundguy for keeping us on our toes.

Patrick, did I ever tell you that you're my hero?

aww shucks

Turns out trying to set up Open VPN is about the least enjoyable way you can spend an entire afternoon. (and it still doesn't work) I have 500 IP addresses, so I might just set up a proxy on a dedicated IP and call it good.

You've got to love the British government.

The main reason for free, easy to access by children, porn is Porn Hub and the other porn streaming sites owned by mindgeek. They host content that has been stolen from behind secure paywalls and host for free, with no restrictions, to whoever wants to watch it.

The British government respond by giving them more power and the ability to benefit even more from their corrupt business model.

Genius.

As most white Americans are of UK or EU heritage, it's kind of like watching our grandparents lapse into alcoholism and senility right in front of our eyes. On top of that, the parents (our own government) are devolving into murderous, treasonous, shit-for-brains psychopaths too.

If you guys can suggest any diet or exercise regimen to help develop that "stiff upper lip" thing you are always talking about, we'd appreciate it

What will be funny is the government trying to enforce this.

At the moment we are still in the EU, if we were to accept the current Brexit plan, we would still be covered by the European Courts of Human Rights, which could and probably would throw a spanner directly into the works of this bill.

On top of that VPN's?

Part of our business falls under this, most doesn't.
All we can do is keep both parts separate and see what happens?

This country is a proper shit show right now.

So in Layman's terms what does this mean? That UK members could lose access to this site?

Basically, yes. Once blocking goes live, then any "commercial pornographic" site (any site that sells erotic content, and/or makes money from ads displayed with erotic content even if free to access), regardless of where in the world it's hosted, that doesn't have an approved age-verification system in place, may be added to the already existing and fully operational national block lists. At which point anyone who's using a "standard consumer broadband connection" (90%+ of home users, most businesses) will find the blocked sites just vanish from the web as all packets to them from those consumer connections get null-routed.

It's technically fairly trivial to get round, using a VPN. If you're a technical user. But the days when most people on-line were techies are long gone - a lot of people will simply find the blocked sites gone and look elsewhere instead.

MM is well aware of all this and keeping a sharp watch on the situation. The problem for WAM site owners in particular is that the UK is roughly 1/3 of the global market. No-one wants to lose a third of their income, that could be enough to shut some operators down completely and significantly reduce the ability of others to make new content.


I wouldn't hold out too much hope there. The law has already passed in Parliament (a year ago) and taking a case to the EHCR is expensive, and given the current political clusterfuck I wouldn't expect any challenge any time soon.

And operationally, it's a proven and well established system, Wikipedia has a fairly comprehensive article on web blocking in the UK here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_blocking_in_the_United_Kingdom


No argument there.

It might be passed into law, but as yet it hasn't effected anyone, due to it not yet being active.

No legal, law abiding porn producer has as yet had their business damaged.

Once this starts happening, there will, I'm sure, be plenty of challenges and people prepared to take it to the courts or to the EU courts.

If one person challenges and the courts find in their favour, the whole lot could collapse.

This reminds of the condom requirement law passed in California regarding porn. Some ignored it, others that really stood to lose just went to Vegas. Granted LA to Vegas is a little easier than jumping countries, but VPN as mentioned multiple times already is the digital equivalent. I understand your concern, you stand to lose money. But have faith that there are enough old 'dirty' politicians that don't want to jump through hoops to get their own porn. Granted, the bastards probably go to PH who already paid everyone off already. It's just easier.

I don't think politicians use porn or need porn.....they do not need digital media to get their jollies, they are powerful so they get their jollies by exerting it on real people instead...e.g. interns. For politician's it is all about the money that porn generates and the power and influence that can come their way. Porn is an entertainment device for the little people who do not have money or power. Those people who have money and power do not need porn.....their sexual entertainment gets delivered to them on a plate.

Look at the long list of U.S. and UK politicians who have been caught in sex scandals....not one of them needed to use porn to get their jollies.....they used real people instead. What turns a politician on, is not porn, but t what they crave the most is staying in power.....so they are more interested in the money that porn companies like Mindgeek/Pornhub can steer their way then being able to access their media. Politician's do not care about under age people....just google UK politician Cyril Smith and the pedo ring he was involved in....they just see age verification as a way to reap in another tax from internet users.

There are far bigger issues for people to be concerned about today....e.g. the Brexit situation in the UK and the revolt that is happening currently in France.....where there is a common theme....i.e. elitist politicians are ignoring the will of the people.

Mark, I don't know what makes me more sad, that you are more cynical than me, or that you are very accurate in everything you just wrote.

I do not consider myself a cynic. I just see the world the way it is, and not thru rose colored glasses where you wander thru life as a naive dreamer. Life is great, if you recognize the realities of life and can navigate your way thru it.

It's not cynical to look both ways before you cross the road...it is just common sense to be aware of your surroundings and possible dangers. My wife has different idea when driving....she thinks it is not necessary look right and left when driving thru an intersection when you have a green light...because nobody on the right or left of you would drive thru a red light...would they ! , so why pay attention if you have the green light. I live my life under "Murphy's Law"...."whatever can go wrong, will go wrong."....and that's not being cynical.....it is just navigating the pitfalls of life.