The problems UMD might be having might be because of the Las Vegas event taking up time of some of the most prolific posters.

Or a decrease in participation might be because of the attitude embodied in the name of this discussion: "AI IS Murdering Real Mess ON UMD Ban IT Now!" Complete intolerance. Its a problem in general in the USA and the rest of the world too these days. Its not enough to dislike something. What I dislike must be stopped, must be banned and the people doing it must be punished and humiliated.

I agree with everything Bobographer said in the post above this one. I too buy a great deal of real person WAM when it ticks off my checkboxes or even gets close. Othertimes I have to make do with what I and AI make myself.

Banning things that large numbers of people want rarely ends well, and whether we like it or not, lots of people do want to play with AI WAM (and AI lots else besides). MM's approach of allowing it but labelled and filterable is the best way to handle it, though I get the point someone made upthread that if a new user (or lurker) comes along then they might get the impression UMD is primarily or entirely an AI forum just because when people do post AI it tends to be multiple dozens of images. Perhaps synthetic content should be filtered by default and users have to choose to enable it? And new users (where there's no existing cookies, so not been to the site before) should see a splash screen that provides direct access to the filtering so they can choose on arrival what they want to see?

I've played with AI WAM, and admired the work of others, esp the "TV Station" stuff that the Bootiful Dodger has been posting of late. But I don't see it competing with live human WAM, rather it's a much more advanced version of WAM stories. It lets you generate a fantasy in your mind in the same way a story does, the images are more "thought starters" than the finished product.

As to sales issues, yeah, the biggie on that is going to be the legally required age-gating now being rolled out across the world. The main long-term result of that is that every teenager in the world will become and expert on encrypted VPNs, which may be a good thing from a skilled population perspective but renders it all pointless, however it will probably have a detrimental effect on casual sales at least in the shorter term.

From my POV, I've not really seen that much of a change other than that sales seem to be spikier than a few years back, but it does fluctuate over time so I make a point of not panicing if there's a slow week - things usually pick up again after a bit, and sometimes there's a rush of sales which makes up for the low period.

And you can't uninvent a technology, AI image and video making is here and will only improve over time. So we need to learn to live with it, control it, have rules for it - like the "no generated images of real people without a model release" one. Because wishing it will disappear isn't going to work. When I started making WAM I did still photos because I thought of myself as primarily a photographer. I rapidly realised that the market was video or bust, looking back I wish I'd filmed some of the early scenes that only exist as photos. Though of course they'd be low-res by modern standards nowadays.

I quite like the AI stuff tbh. Not day to day, and I certainly wouldn't be buying anyone else's AI generated content. However, generating it yourself is far easier than arranging a custom.

If I'm ordering a custom I have to:
- Write a script
- Contact a producer
- Wait for a response
- Modify script (what you want vs what they're prepared to do)
- Negotiate a price
- Wait for them to film it
- Wait for them to edit/send it
- Hope they've not done anything wrong

This process, in my experience, takes at least 3 months. And that's fine, because you're dealing with real people with real lives. But the last two customs I ordered, the one got cancelled because we couldn't agree on the script. So I went to someone else, paid them, and they disappeared off the forum and never produced anything. So the idea of paying 20% of the price and producing it myself using AI is far less stressful.

I understand what people say about authenticity, but if I'm asking any of the top producers for a humiliation scene, then they're only acting anyway, so it's still not authentic. They're not really feeling humiliated, so to me it makes no difference.

The reason for requesting a custom is go get exactly what you want. But that process is so arduous that I can't imagine ever ordering a "real" custom again when I can create it myself without the stress that comes with custom ordering.

I appreciate the work that goes into real life wam. I continue to buy subscriptions and downloads through UMD and I have had customs done and worked with Lenny Sorge on filming several of his vids. We both worked in northern New Jersey and occasionally got together to shoot pool and talk. I miss him greatly.
Lenny treated the models well, and his whole crew did so. For the Florida shoots, he had a baker he used that would roll up in a large van loaded with hundreds of pies for multiple vids.
I like the AI and my profile photo is AI (I have a public facing job.) I enjoy the creativity that is possible without endangering the models. I agree with those that suggest that the filter (and labeling) are working for most of us.
I also agree that the new age restriction requirements on sites have limited my viewing of other sites. I have been a member of UMD for over 25 years, so I pass the age restriction, but I am reluctant to give my personal ID information to other sites. (I have had my ID stolen, so I am extra cautious now.) I feel like that restriction does have an impact on the market, plus piracy.

Excuse me, who did you buy the videos from? There are trusted producers who've been creating content here for years... Is it really possible to just write to a major producer, pay them money, and they'll just disappear? If you've found yourself in this situation, I'm so sorry...

Also, I don't know what you can do for three months? I create videos much faster: 1-2 weeks, but not three months.

Fuck AI.

Agreed. (Although it is the community that's creating it)

Maybe it's possible to have the AI filter in place by default for 'visitors'. Once the have a login, they would see AI content and also have the ability to apply the filter if they choose to.

I'm not a fan of AI generated content at all. I echo all the comments made about it looking fake and don't get me started on the daft stuff it does with not understanding the priciples of gravity and fluid dynamics. There is one element that hasn't been brought up here which I think is deeply worrying and that is consent. I have seen content being posted on social media of AI content of celebrities being gunged, pied etc. People are clearly doing this for personal sexual gratification but the celebrity hasn't consented. This to my mind is just as bad as creating deep fake porn. Models shooting for WAM sites have consented to get messy and know that is fetish based content they are creating. Creating content of a likeness of someone without their consent is just wrong on so many levels to me.

Anyone here seen "The Capture"? I know it's fictional but I think it gives us a healthy reminder of just how terrifying deepfakes and AI could be.

One application that I would like to see AI used for is an improvement in batch processing for photosets. I'm currently editing a 150 picture set and it's a bit tedious - especially in this heat! I do it manually as I can't trust batch processing as it is to get the results I want.

The one who took my money and run was Big_Tits_Gunge. He messaged me saying a model I'd asked about a while ago was coming back and did I still want a custom. I said yes, price was reasonable, he was approved on here, so I paid him. That was a year ago. He does occasionally message me saying he's gonna refund me, but never actually does. I wasn't the only one he did it to either. MM was made aware at the time.

My personal feeling is that AI's utility is in creating scenes that would be hard to replicate in real life. I use it to illustrate my stories, using specific character descriptions and scenarios.

That said, while only AI can easily do something like a slickly produced WAMmy adult gameshow with a large audience, every HME episode from @archnemesis is an instabuy for me. Nothing replaces the real thing.

Adobe Lightroom can be your friend. Been using it since version 1.4.

Not to pick on you specifically--this thread blew up since the last time I visited the forums and I always had questions for people who think this way:

1) What kind of content were you looking to a custom producer to make?
2) Have you tried to make it using AI?
3) If so, did you actually like the AI-generated results?

The reason I ask is because, like everyone else, I've been seeing the evolution of AI WAM whether I want to or not and I still find the outputs to be pure shit. The WAM physics is still inaccurate, the voiceovers are still soulless, and the "models" still look lifeless and mannequin-like. God bless everyone trying to DIY using AI--and if you genuinely love the results then good for you--but I find it hard to believe that anyone who developed their love of WAM watching real scenes can look at AI content right now and think, "Yes, this is good. This is exactly what I envisioned for a dream scene."

To OP's point, I don't think AI content needs to be banned when it's so much more effective to honestly and realistically point out how garbage AI WAM is whenever someone shares it or tries to argue for its usefulness. The world is tired of the cliches: "AI is here to stay," "AI is only going to get better," "It just needs X, Y, Z." Wake us up when it's actually good. Right now, you're just wasting everyone's time and insulting everyone's intelligence.

'A.I' stuff is fine. If you don't like it, then just don't watch it........., I'd post a pix, (real...), but this site won't let me......

So first, I neither hate nor love AI. It's a tool, or at least, that is what it is supposed to be. That was until clout chasers and people looking to turn an easy buck got access to it and now use it to try to pawn off their AI crap as original works for either money or engagement.

Ultimately, that is what it has become for the "creator" with no imagination, or faculties to hire a model and do the real work that goes behind creating a scene.

Do I think banning is the answer? No. If anything, I feel that would make things worse. Banning only encourages people and becomes a lightning rod for AI dick riders to point to in how "unaccepting" opponents are to it.

That said, so far the AI filter is working so as long as no one is crossing any red lines (images of real people, images of models without their permission etc), I don't see the immediate need to take action against it. I will say this, Messmaster has done more to filter out AI bullshit than either Meta or Youtube has and that is saying a lot about the level of propaganda this site is fighting to preserve its integrity.

Lightroom is great but I been really falling in love with Capture One

I think my view will be different to yours for a couple of reasons. 1, I'm diagnosed with Aspergers, and 2, I'm a software consultant in real life, so the AI bit interests me almost as much as the WAM bit.

So we might both, hypothetically, put a prompt into an NSFW AI engine that says "Create a video of a woman in her 30's with dark hair lying in a bubble bath. From above pour a large bucket of custard over her head," for example.

It produces a video 6 seconds long and stops mid pour. Most people would go this is shit, and stop there. But the geek in me can't do that, because I also like the technical challenge of working out how to refine the prompts and improve the output. So I screenshot the last frame and feed it in as the start image for the next video. Prompt something like "Stop pouring custard over her. Then make her wipe her face." It produces the next 6 seconds, but when she wipes her face it's a different woman, because it hasn't cached the start image. So now I start adding "Open her eyes and make her look at the camera" to the end of each prompt to try and keep the face consistent. So once you've mastered how to build the prompts, properly, you can create decent stuff. Or decent for me, I assume you'd still hate it either way, but both our viewpoints are valid.

It's a long way off being able to produce a 15 minute JOI mud video, for example, but for something short and sharp where you're not interested in the audio, then it scratches a different type of itch.

Well said!

I respect everyone's opinion on this, interesting points.
As someone who toys around with ai for fun I don't see the harm for this particular website, especially as there is a perfectly good filter. People are not taking much sales from real messy producers on the store, although I suspect that could become a flash point sooner rather than later.

I just see it as an extension of messing around with Photoshop, drawings, fantasy writing, its not to claim its great. Its just to see whats possible, or can be tailored to my particular interests. Sometimes I share that for constructive feedback, sometimes I take content requests from other people just to make them happy. I rarely post content here as I'm conscious its not particularly welcome, so I stick to Instagram. I'd love to make real content but I'm not in a position to do it.

As for the site sales, I have to say as a regular purchaser over the years and subscriber, I have hardly purchased anything for a long while - please don't take offence as everyone likes different things but I haven't seen good clothed Pie content on here that comes anywhere close to the content from the previous two decades. I find a lot of long time producer's newer content inferior to their older content. Again, each to their own, I'm sure others feel the opposite and love the latest content

Agreed on the wider ai / environment / threat to jobs angle, fair play, but its too late to stop that unless there is a major rejection by society.

Most likely sooner and sadly the talent are the first ones affected.

For instance, it may seem innocent, but majority of models do not want you making AI works of them even as a fan and sending it to them. It is not flattering. They don't want their likeness being used without their permission any more they want someone taking their nude photos and putting them on the internet. It's a violation of their bodily autonomy of when, where and how people can see their bodies, artificial or not.

It's even worse now that mainstream porn companies and even smaller studios are putting AI usage in the language of their release docs. It's gotten to the point where the ladies are about to start using their own release paperwork that specifically states their likeness cannot be used for AI purposes and if a studio or producer refuses to sign, they will not work with that studio and honestly, who can blame them?

AI NEEDS TO BE BANNED AND WIPED FROM THIS SITE!

It's a huge slap in the face to real creators putting in the real hard work to make WAM content.

Let's not forget that AI video generation is trained with REAL FOOTAGE of REAL PEOPLE who very very highly likely did not consent to their likeness taken to help feed the AI tools and now they're being converted into whack low effort content that is used as jerk off material. In what would is that okay??

I swear I saw an "I Love Lucy" AI clip on here. Why is it okay for Lucille Ball's clips to be used to create AI slop for not only OP's personal spank bank, but they get to post it here to share with everyone else as well?!? I was outraged. I talked to one of my producer mutuals that's on here and he said a few years ago there was a clip of a British newscaster that was AI generated WAM content on here (& or Youtube??)- I forget exactly. I wish it was newer so I could have found a way to contact the newswoman or her channel in the UK to inform her. This producer also told me someone recently confessed that their ability to generate AI WAM content themselves became a horrible porn addition for them & ruined their life supposedly (I didn't see the post).

Producing WAM content- especially solo- can be incredibly time consuming. We make huge messes we have to clean up. Yes, it's fun to produce, but as a disabled person, it's incredibly taxing on me and I can't produce content alone at the rate I wish I could. I feel like real WAM content, for it being a relatively small niche in comparisson to others, is highly under-valued by many of the largely male consumers. But what's new I guess in the industry at large. Especially in this economy. AI porn / fetish content is such a huge threat to us- especially survival SWs. SMH.

Glad I caught this thread because I was too scared to come out & say it since I feel like when I joined the site I feel like a "Why we're keeping AI content on here" post was pretty fresh from MM at the time, but I could be wrong. It may have been pinned or something IDK. Memory is fuzzy. I also thought about messaging MM about this directly, but it takes a village to make change.

I will happily be the voice of descent on this polarizing topic. I have created wam in every medium. Written word, hand drawn and digital art, the live action footage with real models filmed with my own two hands and pies thrown with my own two hands. And I also, (since certain aspects have improved in the technology) have been using AI.

With all due respect to the people who think that it is some kind of low effort endeavor, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. AI is nothing more than a paintbrush. A paintbrush for people without a multi-million dollar effects studio at their back. It literally gives the option for creative people to be even more creative. It is by no means simple, not particularly cheap, has a relatively steep learning curve, requires tons of expensive trial and error, and can produce results not possible in the real world. Literally not possible.

Outrage around a i art is absurd as it is in my opinion the artist's best friend. It can truly allow an artist's imagination to come to life in ways again that would be impossible otherwise.

You all are of course entitled to your opinions but this Pitchfork waving is ridiculous.

I guess I'll weigh in as a consumer. AI WAM can burn. I don't really care who that offends or if I'm pitchfork waving. If something I want to see hasn't been created yet, I'll get a custom from the right person or let my imagination suffice. Fortunately for me though, quite a few producers had made messes recently that are like mirrors to fantasies I've had for a long time. I don't intend on commenting further on this topic as I don't have the energy to argue.

Great points! From another dudes POV my hubby just said he'd never look at AI - I want the real thing!.

I will wave a muddy rake when it comes to my hard earned work, $$ spent on outfit's, miscellaneous items, substance's, time invested editing, posting pics and coming up with descriptions of scenes, mess cleanup & creativity for myself and everyone on here who digs and purchases my content.

Thanks!

Trixxi (who has also made her point and is off to get messy)