Encouraged by a couple of people's comments on the forums lately, I recently previewed one of my scenes with only clean pics to see how badly (or otherwise) it affected sales. The answer was that it didn't appear to at all.

Which got me to thinking...if anticipation really is half of the pleasure, are we really all shooting ourselves in the foot by knowing everything that will happen in a WAM scene before we buy it? Would we not get more delight from an unexpected pie sandwich, than we would if we had seen 7 snaps of it across various promotions

Of course as a consumer, our money is precious...but if it's a producer with a definitive style (as most of us have), and a track record...would you buy on description alone? Or description and a clean pic

Do we sometimes deprive ourselves of potentially great scenes by looking at the 26 preview pics and find that in one, the model is pulling the wrong kind of face in that split second (a live action screengrab which may have been captured by the camera as she moved her mouth) . As a consumer, I think I've done that in the past before.

Of course there is an element of risk in the other approach too. The description may sound amazing...but what if the product doesn't match? But if we are talking about well established producers, here for the long haul, that shouldn't be an issue. If you buy a Moomin scene or a Messygirl scene or Candy's scene or JellynCustard, or Dungeonmaster's or mine or Bosunbobs..etc etc etc you know what you are getting.


So why spoil the surprise?

Or is it better to know everything?


tho even pics can't tell everything..you may buy the scene and the woman has a voice like Bea Arthur. Which means either you are gutted..or if you are Regis, you are in heaven.

Interested to know your thoughts (not on Bea Arthur's voice..on this topic) .

For me with my consumer hat on..if I trusted the producer, and could see a clean pic of the models..and could read a description of the set-up...I would buy. If I wanted clarity on anything specific I could always ask..but I don't think I would usually need to.

If I felt the scene wasn't as advertised, I'd ping an email..I'd be confident that that wouldn't be the case with a trusted producer, but I'd also feel confident that if an issue were to arise, a trusted producer would want to resolve it. but beyond that I think I would love going back to the thrill of not knowing what will happen..which we used to get when something on tv happened without us expecting it.

I'm interested to see if there's an appetite for having some unexpected surprises to look forward to.

Love to get your thoughts and votes

I'm not so bothered by the suspense element. Don't get me wrong, I love suspense in terms of timing and delivery, but I don't like it in the sense of 'will she get messy at all?' or 'will this be any good?'
For me, even if you posted detailed pics of all the hits, I am still going to want to buy the scene to actually watch it if I like what I see.
Now, a description or a few tease pictures might get me interested in what could be a potentially great scene, only to find that the reality is disappointing. That happens a lot. In this case, detailed pics might make me realise that I am actually not interested in a scene after all.
As a producer with costs to recoup would you prefer folks to buy the scene but then be disappointed when it doesn't quite push their buttons as they had hoped (which doesn't necessarily reflect badly on your work), or to know exactly what they are getting and maybe decide not to buy this time?

My biggest problem I run into happens when I don't know what a model looks like clean. The clean pics are important.
But over the years, I learned not to trust the mess. Will there be any facial coverage at all? Will she wipe one pie off before the next one comes?

I think these are the bits of info I need.

Great Question! I'm not sure it's the whole question tho..but to answer it at face value first off. I would never want someone to buy a scene and be disappointed...I don't think any producer would. Nor would I want to trick someone into buying something without knowing flaws (ie if there has been a camera glitch I will call it out in the description and adjust the price accordingly).

However as there is no way to guarantee someone won't be disappointed no matter how many preview pics you show them, there is always the risk of customer disappointment..though thankfully most of us longstanding producers get loads and loads of lovely feedback from people who've loved the scenes.

The other part of the equation is that if by revealing all in 48 glorious pics, you lead other potential customers, who may have loved the scene, to think..no point in buying...I've got all the pics...then how do you measure the potential disappointment of person A missing out on a scene they would have loved, vs the potential disappointment of person B regretting buying the video because at 11 mins and 50 seconds the woman did or didn't react a certain way and that was the one moment where there was no pic.

i don't think there is a right or a wrong answer. I just find it very interesting.

Interesting question. For me clean pictures of the participants are important as is a full description of what happens in the scene. I think some messy pictures are also needed sufficient to give a flavour of the content. No messy samples at all would be a bit mean - If I remember rightly Bill Shipton had a rule that producers advertising scenes on his forum had to include at least one messy sample pic.

My main interest is wet and messy hair and before I buy anything I want to know there's good hair coverage that's central to the scene. There are lots of alternative producers out there and I'm not going to buy something from a producer that's new to me on the off-chance that it might have good messy hair when other scenes are available that I know have the content I like.

I didnt answer the survey because what I want is a combination of the options but I hope you find this response helpful.

Alan

I couldn't agree more. Lots of the time, I will take one look at a clean pic, decide she is not my type and not bother to look any further.

My preference is nude messy wam. Sweet sophie would go nude and looked great but had placed modesty bars over her nipples digitally. I never purchased. Since I was not able to see a sample of the finished product, so to speak, I passed. Same with Smiley. Producers like Lenny, Ariel, Hot Wam who show the full action as samples, I made purchases. Hidden details make me question the quality.

My preference is for a good selection of messy pics, so I know what I'm buying. I'm sure we've all been burnt by the odd scene where not much mess is shown, and it turns out that's because there wasn't much to show.

Surprises are nice, but I like them to be a bonus to the main feature. For example, a Moomin scene contains a game of GTG but the pictures don't show you that the leftover gunge ended up all over Charlotte or Lisa. I like that sort of surprise, but as SlowBurn said, I don't want suspense to revolve around "Will she get messy at all?"

It would be interesting to see some producers' views on this, as there might be a cost/benefit for them, in that putting too much in the pictures means people don't buy the scene and just look at the screenshots instead. Yes, I like a good idea of the mess from the pictures, but I appreciate it might not be so simple for a producer!

A final point, if I may play Devil's Advocate here Rev, is that I'm not sure the example you're quoting, of a scene where the lack of messy pictures didn't seem to affect sales, necessarily proves anything. I assume you're referring to your recent Slymsford/Moomin crossover? I bought that and was happy to, despite all the clean pics, because it was you and because it was the Moomins, and so I knew all the girls would get covered. I don't think that logic would hold for a new producer where no-one knows their style yet and is unsure what the scene's going to contain. Put that way, I'd suggest the question of "How much info is too much?" is better answered on a case-by-case basis rather than by a general rule.

It is indeed a good question. As a producer myself, I often ask myself, how much should you reveal from the video to tease the customers.

We are faily new here and we want to show customers what we have to offer and what our videos look like so that they (hopefully) get interested and try one of our videos. We don't want them to be disappointed after they purchased a video as they might never return then. I can understand that an established producers with a good reputation don't have to show as much.

For us, it's not easy to find the line between not showing enough and showing to much. The only thing we found out for sure is that videos without trailer sell better than videos with one.

I'll follow this thread with much interest to see what other people think about it.

Thanks very much for the thoughtful post.

First off..I should have been clearer. I honestly haven't looked to draw any conclusions on the basis of that one scene (which was indeed the 9 girl piefight) ...but just trying that idea out, made me think..this is a really good debating point. I love it when someone starts a good WAM thread were everyone can put their twopenneth in, and this felt like one to me. What do consumers want or expect...and what effect does that have in producers . The point you make about there being a big difference between well known trusted producers with a set style, and someone brand new, also makes sense.

Messy Cleo makes a really good point in the thread below...for years everyone assumed trailers would boost sales..because there's more info. Then we all started noticing that they didn't!

I was a consumer for over 20 yrs before I even thought of producing a scene so I can absolutely see it from both sides. My tastes are quite specific, but I remember that if the women looked nice., and the description made it clear there was no laughing, and good slapstick acting..I was in. But I presumed I was the only one. So then I thought..it's a good topic for the community.

But I am not suddenly planning to stop all preview pics..far from it.

Here's my take on it, as both a consumer and as a producer.

There ain't no such animal as "too much information". Having said that though the information doesn't have to be all pictures or trailers - the best format is a mix of images and detailed text description. I'm very fussy about clothing, so I definitely want multiple clean shots from different angles that clearly show the outfits in detail. Ideally if someone's wearing a jacket I'd like to see clean shots with it on, and off, so I can see details like how a skirt or trousers worn under it fit, waist rise, etc.

The tricky bit though is the actual gunging, how much detail to give? Give away too many pictures, esp "money shots" and many people will just download the samples. Though of course what counts as a money shot will vary by customer. Take a cake-sitting: from a producer POV the obvious thing to do is to show a "just before" shot, with the model standing over the cake, her clothes still perfect and pristine, just about to lower her skirt or trousers to their messy fate. But sometimes going through a scene for pleasure, that's the shot I'll linger on, thinking about the model's anticipation, enjoying the view of her clean skirt on her bottom and how it's about to suffer as she sits into the gateaux, how it will feel as she sits down and the creamy wetness of the mousse and custard starts to wet through her skirt, and then how it will continue to feel when she stands up again and goes on to do whatever comes next with a huge splodge of wet mess on the back of her skirt. So that "teaser" shot may well be a money shot to many people. However follow that to its logical conclusion and no-one would release any previews ever, and that would make the UMD less attractive as a destination, which would reduce visitor numbers and hence sales.

So switching to my prodcer's hat (or is that pair of wellies) here's how I do it:

• First I make sure there are clear clean shots, showing all important aspects of the models looks, outfits (upper and lower halves), hair, and footwear.
  
• Some shots to show examples of the "first touch" gungings, which in our scenes will often be stuff being poured into otherwise clean outfits. These let people see how the models begin to get messy, and that we've filmed it so they can see everything.
  
• Depending on the scene we may the include a few follow-up shots that show the mess developing - cream seeping through disco pants from the inside for example.
  
• Then we include later samples with the girls completely messed up, so the potential customers can be sure the girls got completely messy, or that if they didn't, which bits remained clean. We also always detail that in the text descriptions - if a girl keeps say her head clean (Modesty loved getting messy but only from the neck down for example) that will be clearly stated in the description.
  
• If there is a hose-down there will usually be a few shots from that, one near the start with the girls still covered in mess but the water on, then a later one where they're still dressed but clean, and then if at the end of the hosedown they strip to underwear or swimwear, a shot to illustrate that.

Trailers are something we've only ever done a few of as they take *ages* to edit - I can edit a main scene for release in a few hours but doing a proper trailer with dozens of one-second cuts merging into each other takes days, which is time I often simply don't have. The trailers we have done though do help to show people what our overall scenes and camera methods are like - our number one feature being that in one of our scenes you will always be able to properly see the girls' lower trunk and legs getting gunged, no crossed legs blocking the view, no too-low seats preventing the camera seeing into laps, and no zooming in that cuts off the money shots just as the gunge starts to flow.

And then of course there is the text description - this is absolutely vital and something way to many people simply don't seem to get how to do properly. "Elizabeth gets gunged in jeans" is not a description, I'd do it something like this:

Elizabeth, dressed in high-waist blue jeans, black wellies, and a white t-shirt over a black bikini, takes a seat in the dungeon and then has three buckets of coloured gunge poured over her. First red gunge is poured into her lap, covering her jeans, she starts off with her knees together and then opens her legs so we can see the gunge flow down between them. Next she has a bucket of blue gunge poured over her shoulders from either side, and finally has a full bucket of green gunge poured slowly over her head, drenching her hair and covering her face. She keeps looking forward and slightly up so her face gets fully covered. Once the pouring has stopped she users her hands to shampoo the gunge fully into her hair. Standing up she notes that her bottom is still partly dry from where she was sitting on the seat, she scoops spilled gunge from the floor and covers the chair, and sits down again in the mess, then stands up and uses her hands to make sure her jeans are totally covered. She also takes her boots off, fills them with spilled gunge from the floor, and slides them back on.

The main video is 23 minutes long and ends with her totally covered, she then gets hosed down in the second 11 minute video, starting still fully clothed and covered in mess. There's a full hair-wash with shampoo, filmed from behind so we can see the foam of the shampoo flow down her back and over the bum of her jeans when she rinses. She takes her boots off, fills them with water and pours the contents over her jeans. At the end of the hose-down, she strips off first her t-shirt and then her jeans to reveal the black bikini beneath. The scene has full original sound throughout.

That provides detailed information for a purchaser on how much gunge to expect and how it's applied, while the sample pictures and vid-caps will show that it's been filmed so we can see everything including her legs getting gunged. That's the kind of level of detail I'm looking for in deciding which scenes to buy, and also that I try and provide to potential customers looking at my own work. I very much don't want people buying things and then being disappointed, I'd rather provide enough information that someone who isn't going to like the scene can know not to buy it than make a sale that then leaves someone feeling they wasted their money.

So in short, honesty, accuracy, and fully detailed information.

Back on the subject of sample pics, as someone else said in another thread where the subject came up, they think of their work as art, and want to show it off, even if that does sometimes mean giving away more than just the basic promos. I definitely know and agree with that feeling, many's the time when I've released extra free shots purely to showcase a particular model or moment - the Maude "pink marble statue" one (below) is one example, it's just such a perfect shot I had to show it off, even if it should really have been "paid for viewing only". Click the pic to see the full page of samples for that scene, which also illustrate some of the "showing how the mess developed" shots too.

The correct amount of preview material is: enough for me to achieve climax without actually buying the video.

In order of importance I like to see at least one post-shoot photo first just to see if the totality of the scene justifies itself. After that I prefer to see at least one pre-shoot photo to see what we started with. Then I like to see at least one photo of the first mess, and perhaps some of the subsequent messes, especially the slimings during the scene.