Something I thought of with the video that would also require input from MM. With the possibility of nudity in a clip or a picture, would the person with the clip or pictures need a release from a model before posting it? If the models face was not in the video, or any way to identify the model, would that be ok? Or, because it would be a clip or picture from a video sold here, would the producer be responsible for that release?

I think this is a good discussion, not just because it has to do with a producer, but also to discuss what is acceptable behavior to have in videos and what is not. As it has been discussed earlier, is it acceptable to see someone associated with the filming crew or the producer ejaculating during a scene where it is obvious the model has no clue? If the tainted part of the video is edited out, should the video be allowed to be sold if it is sold here? Should we have a standard of conduct that people involved with filming are held to for their content to be sold here?

This pretty much goes without saying that while we operate in the kink world, there needs to be an ethical boundary we never cross. I have cut ties with producers, videographers, models, and actors for various reasons that cross my moral red lines and I will continue to do so unapologetically. Filming a model nude, topless or in any other vulnerable situation without her expressed approval is unacceptable, never mind ejaculating on a model without her being aware that was going to be the content being shot. As far as I am concerned, if you cannot produce content without being respectful to the boundaries and limits of a model or run a respectful production, you don't belong in the industry. Those scenarios go far beyond whether or not you can produce but rather if you're a good human being or not.

That being said, if recent history of the Pornhub debacle has taught us anything at all, it is if we don't do a better job at self governance, someone else will step in and do it for us.

Yeah it would be piracy just like with any other video. Fair use doesn't really work on a timed basis like that. Plus, maybe a bad look to be owning or sharing a video that you believe is of sexual harassment or assault? The only place you should share it should probably be to the authorities or to any platform selling it. Otherwise what is the point?

A bad look to own said video, but not a bad look to say it would be piracy to post a small clip of the topic at hand? The previous times this was discussed the videos did not get used either so it was a bunch of he said she said. Just like it is now. I understand it requires charges for someone to be removed as a producer here, I think everyone in the conversation knows that. It is interesting that if it is a clip from a TV show or a Movie off the red tube site, is not considered piracy. Either posting clips you do not own the rights to is piracy or it isin't.

Thanks for your thoughts. I agree posting the clip here might not be very constructive - which is one of the reasons I've not done so.
However to me the producer's behaviour warrants further scrutiny. He's already posted a rebuke on this thread prior to my describing the clip. I feel an explanation from him is now due.

At the moment if it were my decision he would be banned from this forum on moral rather than legal grounds. Just because this & other questionable events were not reported to the police or ended in convictions this shouldn't stop action being taken here. Messy Jessie was barred (rightly so) yet as far as I'm aware she was not convicted of any crime.

Here's the problem with that.

Do we even know where the incident in question took place? Model's name (legal) or the producer's legal name? You would need these things to submit a proper report and open an investigation. Also in some jurisdictions there is a statute of limitations on cases such as this. Unless we're suggesting submit the video to federal authorities (which good luck getting them to dog an SA case possibly years old)

This is all assuming that this wasn't a worked part of the shoot of course

Can you at least post a picture of the model from the video? (Just the beginning of the video before she is messy/nude)

This way, we can at least see who the model in question is and if this video is still being sold on Anglefan's store.

Stealth, it is still available to buy as of a few days ago.

MM - is it still your decision that no action is taken here?
Do you have a response to the comments made in my previous post?

Anglefan do you have any comments on what happened in this video?

Thanks

https://anglefan.com/cgi/autogal.pl?vidnum=tws-21-1073

This is the video in question apparently

Each time this comes up I reiterate the decision to let the community discuss this and decide for themselves who to support or believe. With the Jessie situation I had clear, 1st-hand evidence of fraud they were perpetrating against our ratings system, and I have no equivalent knowledge for this case.

Twice this producer has come into question for his apparent behaviour - masturbating onto models during shoots and now filming a model after she had asked him not to.

He has made no comments defending what can be seen in the video shared above
The videos are evidence of what took place

Do we not at the very least deserve an explanation from the producer?

Sure... The floor is open for him to speak his piece.

I've been on the forum for several years, and I've heard rumours about Anglefan before. However, I've never seen the videos in question, and at this point I don't even remember who I heard those rumours from. Likewise, I don't know whether those people had actually seen the relevant videos, or whether they were just repeating what they'd heard.

When this thread started, the OP referred to a video they watched several years ago, but freely admitted that they might be getting the details wrong.

Based on that, I think that the moderators' comments made sense:
"Our standing on Anglefan is: No court case, no admission of guilt as far as we know, no direct evidence--only hearsay;"

However, the recent posts from erictheviking change all of that. There is now a specific video, which is a primary source. Again, I haven't watched it, but it would seem a bit dubious to make that the top-selling video in his store so that everyone can form their own opinion! According to Anglefan's profile, he was online an hour ago, so he's presumably seen the recent comments, and I agree with eric that it's reasonable to ask for a statement.

I can see a few potential ways to respond to the allegations:
a) "That's not what the model said. You misheard her."
b) "That is what she said, but she was just play-acting in character."
c) "You're right, that did happen, but I'd completely forgotten about it until I saw this video."
d) "Ok, you've got me. It did happen, and I lied about it, but now you've got proof."

Or maybe there's another explanation?

MM

Are you going to act on this?
The producer has masturbated onto models without their knowledge and filmed them without their knowledge.

He has had every opportunity to explain his actions but stayed silent.

I am baffled as to why you have not given him an ultimatum to provide a plausible justification for his behaviour or face being banned?

You've previously said you stopped hosting his videos so you presumably have no financial reason to support him so why won't you do the right thing here?
Women deserve to be treated with respect and not be taken advantage of.

Meanwhile he is allowed to continue advertising his videos on the main forum unchallenged.

He even appeared himself in the latest one alongside another unsuspecting model.

I get really concerned when producers start interacting with their models during shoots and without a plausible explanation to explain his past behaviour I really wonder why you have not taken suitable action here to uphold the integrity of this forum in standing up to this sort of behaviour and possibly help prevent any future abuse by him against women.

I have acted for over a decade, and I have said basically everything I have to say on this: This is not a court and there was no guilty verdict as you're implying. So I am leaving this up for you to make your own decision on a situation which did not happen here and for which I do not have any 1st-hand evidence, no response from the model, no admission from the accused, nor any court decision. These are my criteria and I have been very clear about that. I will not predicate a decision about removing a user account based on whether or not they respond to your personal demands.

Just to clarify, does a video count as 1st-hand evidence? I.e. are you saying that this particular video isn't sufficient (e.g. not as described), or that videos in general aren't relevant?

I'm saying that if I don't have any logs of the occurrence to view, no inbox messages revealing anything, no deleted comments left to dig up, and really nothing on this site to go by... plus no input from the model or anybody else actually there at the time, I do not have 1st hand evidence. I make decisions based on listening to the people involved, plus what actually happens here (plus, recently, confirmed court cases). But in these types of cases, I recuse myself and let the community discuss everything and come to their own conclusions. Some of you have come up with a guilty verdict, and that's perfectly fine; These conversations are allowed to happen so that you can arrive at that decision for yourself.

As much as I had hoped something could come of this I am afraid nothing much will. The best thing we can do is make sure that models have our support when they come forward and try to make this a safe place for them to talk about what they are comfortable with. Unfortunately we are at an interesting place where just because there is smoke does not mean there is fire in everyone's eyes. Because of these conversations I have learned of actual media that shows some pretty damning things. Instead of wondering if there was any actual media or just recollections and I am grateful to those that have shared that with me. Should the day come when people are seeking for a pattern of behavior and stumble onto this thread, if I am still around I will have links and information for them. I know that people can change and recognize their shitty behavior all I can do is hope that Angelfan has made those kind of changes in their life.

Sara Liz posted here on UMD at the time that the producer had masturbated onto her without her knowledge. That's how it came to light. It was around 2009.

You got a screen grab of that statement? If so, I'd honestly like to see it.

Also, are we talking about the same Sara Liz who has worked with Jim Weathers and Dave over at MPV? If so, I been hoping to hire her for a messy wrestling shoot down the road as she has worked with mud so she is already familiar with the mud aspect of what we do so if true, I'll probably find out from the horses mouth.

I didn't see the need to take a screen shot at the time
However archived posts may still be available via MM

Regarding the model - the video has been removed but you can see small pics of her here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20100420072522/http://umd.net/forums/saraliz_part_3

Hope this helps

Yup. That's her. Thank you!