That's an interesting approaching to combating piracy, I've seen similar approaches from movie and games production teams (smaller ones who're more interesting in facing the problem head on than the big studios are) who've uploading good quality copies of their film and good copies of their games as they've not been impressed by the lower quality of the pirated copies of films or the buggy-ness of pirated versions of their games. Their hope is that by the pirates having a good quality version of the game/film, that's more likely to result in future sales as the pirates are going to download the game/film so it might as well be a good quality version that gives a true reflection of the work put in by the production teams.

Reporting piracy is key but like you say, that's only ever going achieve results if the producers act on that information. Nobody knows if their lack of action is down to them weighing up the time cost vs benefit or if it's because they lack the knowledge/resources to know what to do when a site offering their content for download is found.

OK, it's not theft. There is no permanent deprivation of anything. True enough.

It is however a civil matter. A pirater is getting someone else's intellectual property for nothing. When they ought to be paying something. So the producer can sue for the amount the pirater ought to have paid for their download - and for lost profits for those who would have bought otherwise.

You know as well as I do that that's difficult, expensive and time-consuming. Big corporations can do it. Small niche producers cannot.

Even if they could trace a pirater, they might be overseas, so it might be impossible to get any recovery.

So, regardless of it not being theft, it is in fact harming producers - and by extension everyone who wants to see a producer's work, and is willing to pay for it. Because the producer's profits will reduce. Perhaps to nothing.

What it needs is some tech preventing copying, or some sort of fingerprint alert that enables someone to shut down something bootlegged instantly. I'm surprised Big Tech hasn't done that already.

It's particularly harmful when it comes to the Moominvids. Nobody else does what they do. Others bring in a more erotic or XXX element; the beauty of the Moominwork is that it has that sort of Carry On aspect to it, it's naughty but PG, like a secret. And the girls are so natural. Sometimes a model might look like they are playing a role, so to speak, the Moomingirls are just themselves. And all the more gorgeous for it.

Bingo.

Big corporations can't really do it, the pirate bay is a good example of how much they fail at cutting piracy off at the source. And that brings us back to offering consumers a better option than piracy, which is much easier said than done. If the pirate material providers aren't getting any benefit then they'll concentrate their efforts elsewhere.

I don't think the people providing pirated copies of wam producers work are particularly resourceful or knowledgeable, at least not from the sites I've found, which to some extent gives the producers an advantage.

Various types of digital fingerprinting is already quite possible but it's just as easy to strip those fingerprints from the files as it is to put them in place. It's a 'game' of cat and mouse, staying ahead of the pirates is key, prevention is much easier than cure.

Ahhh. Well I certainly don't want to mischaracterize you, gungetime. There were several statements that led me to believe that you were being an advocate. Just one for example:



Really, was just making a joke about your situation in this thread rather than any sort of point. No harm meant.

And I've really got to work on my delivery. Have deleted several "jokes" after a frosty reaction makes my post look like I'm being malicious, including a reeeeaally awkward one to our beloved webmaster some months back. I don't know... Maybe I'm expecting folks to magically discern my broad punchline smiling face over the internet. So if anyone's feeling slighted by one of those, maybe look at them again in the light of the smiling numbskull that delivered them (see avatar). Is there such a thing as Internet Asperger's Syndrome? lol

Didn't want to start a huge debate here, what gungetime is saying is purely a truthful answer of what many people these days think about sharing other people's work.

If I agree with him or not isn't really the point, his opinion isn't isolated to him and fair play to him for standing up and saying what he thinks.

It's a very tough debate between content providers and people who think they should have the right to obtain that content without payment.

I like the suggestion that we put variations back into our media, but again, we have one of the biggest collections of wam media all very varied, the issue is the more we are squeezed by piracy, the less ability we have to risk money on new things.

I am interested in shooting new pie media though and doing it differently.

Thanks for all the support and honest feedback.

haha smess, you can make all the (possibly) badly executed jokes you want and there's zero chance of offending me or me thinking you're being malicious. I'd hope that our messy webmaster has got an equally thick skin, I say that cos a thick skin is kind of essential to not get offended at anything and everything on the internet.

There are benefits from piracy and as piracy isn't going to ever completely go away, there's no reason to not make the best of a bad situation. But how to make the best of the situation for big multi million pound producers is somewhat different to how smaller producers can get any benefit from it.

Mr Moomin, I'm relieved that you've been able to take my point of view on board, without an honest discussion from all perspectives there's less of a chance of solving the piracy problem you're faced with. A huge debate is hopefully going to be of benefit, to you and your team as well as other producers

Variation is good, I'm guessing cos the weather is good you're doing some mostwam filming at the moment, if you're able to increase how public your locations are then I'd be in favour of scenes like that. You've got lots of variation but it tends to be the same things in slightly different ways, maybe some relatively inexpensive 'tests' of new types of clothing; sports gear (so many different types to choose from), lycra gear is a personal favourite (legwear.co.uk have lots to choose from), I know some people are into chav gear, swimwear is probably an easy option, raincoats and other similar stuff is liked by some, and that's about all I can think off off the top of my head at the moment.

Taking the gunge tank to a public location would be good to see. Streetsplashpublic was good but I'm guessing that didn't turn a profit so that's why it's not been updated, mostwampublic would be an interesting idea although you might have a harder time persuading people to get messy rather than to get wet.

Different messy substances could bring in some new sales. Custard & chocolate has been done loads of times, same with lemon curd & chocolate, custard & sauces is the same, etc etc etc. You of course knows what does and doesn't sell well so you're in a good position to decide what to film, sales declining could just be to do with people getting a bit bored of the same stuff.

Out of interest, is the pirated content that is popular also popular among paying customers?

Well that's another far too long post written.

If breach of intellectual property is not theft, what is it? Forgery?!

Breach of intellectual property? I think what you're meaning to ask is what's the offence when pirating a producers work and the answer to that is copyright infringement.

There are civil and criminal elements to the infringement of copyright.

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-manage/c-useenforce/c-infringe.htm

It's what's called a tort. The point is it's up to the person wronged to do something about it, not the state.

It's like someone crashing into your car, or playing loud music at all hours. It's not necessarily a crime, but it harms other people.

Sorry, but this is the most stuipd answer to legimate stealing content I have ever heard.

First: So you say that the stolen DVD is a crime, because it costs 90 cent to produce one (just the DVD, not the content). A download which gets shared to thousands of people is no crime, because it is not a physical good? Come on, don't lie to yourself. You know that they money is not made by the 90 cent DVD, it is the content what all is about. The damage I get from a burglar who breaks into my place and takes 100 DVDs is 10 times lower than any filesharing. People are not buying anymore, because they know they can find anything for free. You are paying for the service that a produce films the content you like to watch. It has nothing to do if something is a phisical product or not. A lawyer does also not produce a physical product, so if you need one you should tell him that therefore you won't pay him

Also you can't compare small fetish websites with the music industry. I just live one block away from the hottest Las Vegas Nightclubs and can see every day why many music artists do not have to worry about piracy, because it does not matter if they sell their music or give it away for free. They make money by their name/brand. If David Guetta, Afrojack, Avicii or Calvin Harris are in the nightclubs here they make a fortue with their name. Thousands of people are paying $100 just to get into the club to see them and they earn $200.000 in one night. So for them even piracy is advertising.

But now see everything from the view a small producer like we all are: Nobody is paying $100 to shake my hands and take a picture with me. Nobody likes to hear me sing. lol. So I have to gernerate money with the videos I produce. Otherwise I have no chance to finance the production, pay my equipment, servers, models, location and time.

There are not many options beside this to finance our websites. Again don't compare us to the big players. I am sure you can download the newest Transformers movie somewhere in the internet. However, they allready made $400 million in the first 6 days.... also they can sell advertising stuff.... Do you really think anybody wants to buy a Downloaddreams sticker to put it onto his car?

So forget all the stupid excuses you are bringing up. In my view it is a crime to share videos in the internet where you do not have the rights for. A lot of websites died already and I see more and more will close soon. In the past I was able to gernerate 5-10 times more with a video so it was never a problem to finance the next productions. Nowadays it is sometimes so bad that even we struggle to play in the production costs. And I would think we are still one of the most successful producers out there. So I can imagine what pain are others feel from this.

Best wishes,
Swen

www.downloaddreams.com
www.carstuckgirls.com

Perhaps you could point out where I said that? :-S

I said nothing about the cost to produce DVDs and I also didn't say that pirating material isn't a crime. I said that piracy isn't robbery because it isn't.



Wherever you're getting those numbers from certainly isn't from anything I've said.



The difference between copyright infringement and robbery is all about the physical object. Not paying a lawyer for a service they have provided is something completely different to copyright infringement or robbery, this thread would be much easier without people muddying the waters by making meaningless comparisons.



It's a much better comparison than robbery or not paying for a service received. The offence for pirating music is exactly the same as it is for pirating the work of a WAM producer.



I haven't said that it isn't. What I have said is that it isn't robbery, I've said that because of what the definition of robbery is.

You can call it robbery as much as you want but that's not going to change what offence it actually is.

The lack of understanding by copyright holders of copyright laws is part of the problem and this thread is a very clear illustration of that lack of understanding.

Just keep the mud site up and i'll keep a buying.

You wrote: "If you steal a DVD or whatever from a shop then that shop has lost that physical object and can not sell it anylonger." So I assumed that at least you understand that this is wrong. A shared downloadvideo is also not possible to sell, why buy anything you get everywhere for free?



You didn't say anything about the cost, but you made a difference between a physical product and a virtual product. To show you that for me there is NO difference between them I add the information that the DVD they sell in the stores cost below one Dollar. It's all about the content, not if you get it on a DVD or from a download. Maybe by definition there is a difference between piracy and robbery.... but for me it is all the same, because it damages my company and my income!


No you didn't say this. I said this numbers based on my personal experience with this. So don't play dumb by writing you didn't say this.



For me there is no difference between this. All is very similar. Tell me the damage a lawyer will get, just because you do not pay him? He just put his time into this, not even real money to produce anything. Same with downloadvideos! That was your own argument. For me it does not matter if you steal my money by physical robbing me, or stealing my copyright or ideas. I get the same damage, and this is what makes me mad about it. I don't care if you call it robbery or not. I care about how I can pay my bills and piracy hurts me bad.

In the past I was fighting against them by lawyers. I have won all of them, but I am tired about this. In one case the other company had to pay $13000 for my lawyers because the curt have seen a trademark violation.... but I am so sick about this, because if they can't pay I have to pay the lawyers by myself.

I would love to see people like you operating a WAM website, and be happy when your content gets stolen. Tell me how would you finance everything? And then you get answers form some people who think are smart that this is all legal? These pirates are sharing or selling my content, make a lot of money and I have to pay for everything. Just thinking about this makes me want to breaking some bones (not stealing anything, just breaking.... so no crime, it will heal by time )

However, I am still happy that many of the people here in the forum understand why sharing downloadvideos is wrong and is hurting the producers and in the long run also themself. At the day the last website will stop producing videos, even you will understand this.

Swen

There is a very big difference between a physical object and intellectual property.



I'm not going to get into the accuracy of your numbers which I'd say are a guesstimate at best.



No, that wasn't my argument. My argument is that they're different offences, you can draw similarities but they're still different offences. Adding in stuff to do with not paying a lawyer for their time just complicates things for everyone. The damage from robbery is different to the damage from copyright infringement, that difference being that the damage from copyright infringement can quite easily be more than the damage from robbery.



I haven't said that piracy is legal, please stop putting words in my mouth. There are various piracy protection measures that aren't too difficult to put in place, I'd certainly use them if I were producing anything. Working on converting pirates to paying customers is a much better use of time than trying to go after those distributing your material.



ffs, stop putting words in my mouth!! I'm perfectly aware that piracy hurts producers and haven't said otherwise. Are you putting words into my mouth because you don't understand what I've been saying or because you think making stuff up strengthens your position?

Mr Moomin is able to take part quite reasonably in a conversation and by taking all view points on board he'll have a better chance at reducing the piracy problem. You on the other hand are just ranting and raving so good luck to you, I suspect that you're going to need it if this conversation is a reflection of how you conduct yourself.

You really don't like to understand my position, right? Sure I am ranting about this and I am not as relaxed and good in arguments like Mr Moomin is. But I do not see why I have to be nice to people who think it's not a bad thing to steal from me.

Yes I know that it would be maybe smarter for me to shut my mouth and that writing in a foreign language is not my strongest point. But I don't care because as you can have your opinion about this, I can have mine. And we will never agree to each other. My personal opinion is that copyright violation and robbery and stealing something physical is the same.

"Copyright infringement can do more harm than robbery"

gungeman, 2014. Literally worse than Hitler.

Personally speaking, I only resort to piracy when there isn't a reasonable way of getting content legitimately. I subscribe to Netflix, Google Music and Amazon Prime, and rent streaming movies rather than pirate them. Pretty much the only thing I pirate now are US TV shows when they air, some of which I later buy on disc.

I had a quick poke around the Internet after seeing this thread, and while I found some WAM stuff linked to dodgy, slow download sites I didn't find anything from Mostwam's sites. Speaking personally, even if it wasn't so easy to buy straight from the source, piracy would be too much hassle to bother with as far as I'm concerned.

Name calling... an easy way to spot someone who has got a concrete argument based on solid facts and reasoning.:ohbruther:

Err, was that aimed at me? I was joking, seeing as some people seem to be having a go at you for actually supporting their position. Obviously the stance of "piracy is a bad thing" does not make you worse than Hitler.

Some comedy self justification there for criminal acts.

If you don't pay for something you enjoy, and at the same time hope they stay in business...

Well, that's what we call cognitive dissonance...

Or I prefer "fucktard logic".

There is some sense in what fucktard is saying, but it's regurgitated a regurgitated with added misunderstanding study of piracy.

I've been a long time fan & supporter of Leon & Lisa and had the privilege of meeting them both during a shoot.

I've always found their prices to be the most reasonable out there for what they do and its a great shame that there are those out there that pirate their work.

IMHO the persons responsible should be banned from all MostWam sites and even UMD

Keep up the great work both and long may you continue

I just made the assumption that you were being as (il)logical as the people having a go at me.

Noise, you can label everyone you don't agree with as a fucktard but that's not exactly going to do anything to improve the piracy situation. Same as labelling stuff "regurgitated a regurgitated with added misunderstanding study of piracy", you're quite entitled to that opinion but it's not a very useful opinion.

Welshwammer, banning people doesn't work, it's very easy to get around.

Piracy and illegal downloads are exactly that, ILLEGAL. It doesn't matter if it's a major Hollywood film company or a small independant producer of film/music. Taking the films/music and distributing it on pirate sites and download sites is ILLEGAL, that is that. I feel sorry for the producers that are suffering because of that. Here is why i never ventured into this industry after a long conversation.

My best friend from London and I was going to start up our own production company, we were going to venture into WAM as she wanted to do something different. After a long discussion about the pros and cons of it, sadly, we decided not to go ahead with it. Why were we put off?

This very subject.

I had noticed an influx of producers videos either being posted up to video sites and/or illegal download sites, and both my friend and I knew if this were to happen to us, not only would we have a battle having those videos removed from these sites, but the loss of revenue for a new production. We were going to set up a DL store on here, to get us started. My friend, all i can say is she LOVED getting messy, we even filmed a few videos of her which i still have, but will never be released (including one very unexpected video where she got so excited, it became proper adult with her actions!). However, the cost of models, the cost of gunge, the cost of travel expenses, studios and more, while viable and doable, would have meant higher prices to start off with, lets not forget that i woudl have to travel from the Midlands to London, and on a train (plus other costs for both of us), that isn't cheap. We still wanted to go ahead with it, but then the reality thought kicked in, the fact that a video woudl be approximately $15-20 to start off with. Worth the money because our videos averaged between 8-20minutes with lots of mess. But if our videos were to be distributed through pirate sites, we woudln't make any money, and wind up out of pocket. We decided it's just not worth it

So now you see why this is serious, pirateing videos is serious, it affects more people than you realise, and it's stopped me and my best friend from doing something we both have a passion for before it even got started. It's not worth the risk. We both work in an office now... it's boring but it pays the bills

Simple point here, don't illegally download videos from producers, the damage it can do is more than you realise

I hope this post makes sense to someone

No sense spending anymore time parsing the legal definition of theft, but to say I never take anything not given from a fetish producer, band, etc. because I want them to keep doing what I like and money is the medium through which I show my support. When I get customs done, I expect to spend a lot of money, not only because I want something specific, but because I want to show the producer its worth their time in dealing with me.

On that note, I would advocate that producers move from a retail business model to a concierge business model, sort of like a bespoke suit tailor. Don't produce any content that isn't sponsored in full by someone - all expenses are then paid for and you achieve your profit margin right out the gate (all this being worked out ahead of time via contract). The sponsor gets exactly what he/she wants and you will only have to please one person. Wouldn't you rather deal with one person who will give you $1000 rather than finding 100 people who will give you $10? Granted, you might deal with difficult, picky individuals, but you can always say no and save your effort. Once produced, it is either released onto your website where any additional profits are incidental or not released, if the sponsor has paid for it to remain exclusively his/hers (I have plenty of exclusive content that has never been seen outside of me and the woman who did it and it doesn't have seem to put anyone out of business). Now piracy doesn't matter - you've made your money. An even better system would be to give the sponsor 10% (or whatever) of future sales which would allow sponsors to get their money back and put some skin into the game that would make them an ally in your attempt to limit piracy. Yes, you will have much less content on your site (you might not even have a public website based on this model), but this seems to be a successful model that casinos use - they focus on their big spenders, offering exclusive access and services not available to the people paying slots. It's good to be the king.

I advocate this model because,personally, I would rather pay a substantial sum for something I really want rather than a lesser sum for a bunch of stuff that is not as satisfying. As Oscar Wilde said, "I am easy to please - I only want the best." And, as a man of means, I can put my money where my mouth is now.

Best wishes,

Wish we could, I suspect that the media has been obtained using stolen cards as we regularly get issues with stolen cards.
I believe that then puts it into the category of proper THEFT and the people who watch and download it are profiting from the theft of money from the victims of card theft and from us via illegally shared media.

Why do people go to such trouble to share our content, beats me?

They seem to be up to me. Temporary glitch?

Yes, they're ok now, thanks folks