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"Rude, Entitled Behavior"
Love you, too
The people like you describe are the reason a lot of models do not chat here or do not revel themselves unfortunately. I still remember the thread Liz made announcing she was available for customs and the entitlement of people demanding she go to some pretty extended lengths to prove she was who she claimed. It is all a bunch of bull shit. It is the minority of users that are probably only here for a few months and leave that ruin things for others. I am glad you are speaking out against this and not letting it deter you from being here and having fun.
This kind of behavior should be a one strike ban. While it would not help the comments on posts, I wonder if MM could start locking the messaging ability until you had been here for X amount of time. Or give people the option to not get messages from new accounts.
This kind of behavior should be a one strike ban. While it would not help the comments on posts, I wonder if MM could start locking the messaging ability until you had been here for X amount of time. Or give people the option to not get messages from new accounts.
WAMOptimist93 said:
Oh for sure, in terms of expectations of how quickly to get something, I can see that. I'm thinking more in terms of entitlement to a model's time, etc.
Nostalgic Erotica Prod said:
Generational in terms of expectations was how used the phrase and I use the term VERY loosely because I don't subscribe to it being the end all be all, especially when the information is so readily available out there.
For instance, a model who I've worked with booked a wrestling custom for a client. Not one hour after the money hit her account, he started bombarding her inbox. This lasted about a couple of days before she just refunded the money after he started getting belligerent, told him to go fuck himself and blocked him.
Now, I haven't been in the game NEAR as long as some folks but I will bet dollars to donuts that the likelihood of someone acting that way to me is low simply because I'm a male.
WAMOptimist93 said: I know some people above mentioned generational differences being a culprit, buy from what I've seen and heard, some of the older members are among the worst offenders when it comes to entitlement and a lack of boundaries.
Generational in terms of expectations was how used the phrase and I use the term VERY loosely because I don't subscribe to it being the end all be all, especially when the information is so readily available out there.
For instance, a model who I've worked with booked a wrestling custom for a client. Not one hour after the money hit her account, he started bombarding her inbox. This lasted about a couple of days before she just refunded the money after he started getting belligerent, told him to go fuck himself and blocked him.
Now, I haven't been in the game NEAR as long as some folks but I will bet dollars to donuts that the likelihood of someone acting that way to me is low simply because I'm a male.
Oh for sure, in terms of expectations of how quickly to get something, I can see that. I'm thinking more in terms of entitlement to a model's time, etc.
Oh no doubt. I had a rejection for a shoot a couple of weeks back. I reached out, typical request. She was interested at first and when I got into the details, she replied "I'm sorry, No thank you". My response? "There is nothing to be sorry about! I understand and appreciate your time. Have an amazing rest of your day!"
The result? We're still working together, just not for Fighting Fems based content. What easily could be taken as a negative may turn into a positive and beneficial work relationship that will create some amazing stuff down the road. Simple professionalism, respect, courtesy and acknowledgment goes a long way
Making smut is easy. Making art takes more!
Nostalgic Erotica Prod said:
I honestly don't think this a who to blame or what to blame scenario. I think this is a simple "don't be a fucking wall to wall asshole" scenario.
Have some empathy. Don't be a dick. Show some grace and all that.
If you message someone, take in account that you are probably not the sole message in their inbox. They might have kids, or a family or a husband. They might be on vacation. They might be at work. In any event, they will get to you when they get to you. Or they won't and guess what? That's ok, too! The fate of the world isn't relying on whether your message gets answered or not.
WAMOptimist93 said:
It's not as simple as me saying "older people are this way, younger people aren't," it's more me saying that if you're looking at the younger generation to place blame, you still have to look at the older people, too.
DungeonMasterOne said:
This infortunately is definitely part of the issue. I always used to believe that if you explained things to people clearly and in detail, they'd learn, understand, and moderate their behaviour. Sadly I've learned that isn't the case and some people will be obnoxious and oppressive no matter how much you explain to them that it's not helpful.
I dopn't think its generational at all, it's entirely down to how someone thinks of women in general, and that cuts right across the generations.
When I send someone a message, I expect that they'll reply in their own good time, when is convenient to them and they feel like putting the effort in to reply. And that might be five minutes, or five months, later. They don't owe me anything, and I've no right or reason to demand an instant response.
But a lot of people seem to have taken the instant messaging facilities we now have, where you can see whether or not someone has received a message, as meaning that they're under obligation to immediately respond to it. My view? To hell with that. Replies should happen at the convenience of the replier, not the demand of the sender.
Different of course in a paid-for sexy chat session, where either a set amount of time or X number of messages have been agreed on, and it's taken as read that the purchaser is getting off on the conversation. But that's a paid-for service. Messaging someone for free? Any reply at all is a privilege, and should be respected, and entitled or demanding behaviour should result in a blocking.
rtgdes1gner said: The entitled incel assholes know they're entitled assholes. They get off on being that way and the anger and frustration they generate from women.
This infortunately is definitely part of the issue. I always used to believe that if you explained things to people clearly and in detail, they'd learn, understand, and moderate their behaviour. Sadly I've learned that isn't the case and some people will be obnoxious and oppressive no matter how much you explain to them that it's not helpful.
WAMOptimist93 said: I know some people above mentioned generational differences being a culprit, buy from what I've seen and heard, some of the older members are among the worst offenders when it comes to entitlement and a lack of boundaries.
I dopn't think its generational at all, it's entirely down to how someone thinks of women in general, and that cuts right across the generations.
When I send someone a message, I expect that they'll reply in their own good time, when is convenient to them and they feel like putting the effort in to reply. And that might be five minutes, or five months, later. They don't owe me anything, and I've no right or reason to demand an instant response.
But a lot of people seem to have taken the instant messaging facilities we now have, where you can see whether or not someone has received a message, as meaning that they're under obligation to immediately respond to it. My view? To hell with that. Replies should happen at the convenience of the replier, not the demand of the sender.
Different of course in a paid-for sexy chat session, where either a set amount of time or X number of messages have been agreed on, and it's taken as read that the purchaser is getting off on the conversation. But that's a paid-for service. Messaging someone for free? Any reply at all is a privilege, and should be respected, and entitled or demanding behaviour should result in a blocking.
It's not as simple as me saying "older people are this way, younger people aren't," it's more me saying that if you're looking at the younger generation to place blame, you still have to look at the older people, too.
I honestly don't think this a who to blame or what to blame scenario. I think this is a simple "don't be a fucking wall to wall asshole" scenario.
Have some empathy. Don't be a dick. Show some grace and all that.
If you message someone, take in account that you are probably not the sole message in their inbox. They might have kids, or a family or a husband. They might be on vacation. They might be at work. In any event, they will get to you when they get to you. Or they won't and guess what? That's ok, too! The fate of the world isn't relying on whether your message gets answered or not.
Well, my comment was directly in response to the discussion JazzTalker opened up about it being a generational thing. He opened up it being a "who to blame" scenario, and I had some disagreements on what was being said.
Nostalgic Erotica Prod said:
Oh no doubt. I had a rejection for a shoot a couple of weeks back. I reached out, typical request. She was interested at first and when I got into the details, she replied "I'm sorry, No thank you". My response? "There is nothing to be sorry about! I understand and appreciate your time. Have an amazing rest of your day!"
The result? We're still working together, just not for Fighting Fems based content. What easily could be taken as a negative may turn into a positive and beneficial work relationship that will create some amazing stuff down the road. Simple professionalism, respect, courtesy and acknowledgment goes a long way
WAMOptimist93 said: I'm thinking more in terms of entitlement to a model's time, etc.
Oh no doubt. I had a rejection for a shoot a couple of weeks back. I reached out, typical request. She was interested at first and when I got into the details, she replied "I'm sorry, No thank you". My response? "There is nothing to be sorry about! I understand and appreciate your time. Have an amazing rest of your day!"
The result? We're still working together, just not for Fighting Fems based content. What easily could be taken as a negative may turn into a positive and beneficial work relationship that will create some amazing stuff down the road. Simple professionalism, respect, courtesy and acknowledgment goes a long way
I've had similar, and exactly the same response, "thanks for letting me know, and absolutely no problem." TBH that's how I'd expect any professional producer to respond. It's also important that no matter how "sexy" the finished product is going to be, you banish all thought of that from your mind when negotiating with models, and focus purely on the business aspects - time, compensation, travel expenses, personal limits, etc.
I think some of the problem comes from guys who are finding the process of negotiating a custom itself a turn on. Which, as I know from writing scene plans, it is. But if that's the experience someone wants they should be willing to pay for it as sex-chat, and pay up front, not "I'll add $50 to the scene fee" which then never gets paid because the scene is never actually ordered because the would-be customer only really wants to get off on the chat. Hell, back in the days of Messy Jessie it was well known that people would contact models wanting to have long and detailed planning chats about customs they'd no intention of actually ordering. Apparently a common give-away was the customer asking the model about how it felt when they got messy with specific substances.
Nostalgic Erotica Prod said: Now, I haven't been in the game NEAR as long as some folks but I will bet dollars to donuts that the likelihood of someone acting that way to me is low simply because I'm a male.
Indeed. Some of the girls who model here have said they like that this way they get to have fun, get paid for it, get fed and driven home afterwards, and never have to deal with the endless torrent of demanding messages and boundary-pushing they'd get if they did it solo. TBH I suspect this is why even in the age of OnlyFans there is still a role for us old-style producers.
Saturation Hall - Forth! The Gungemaidens!
VegasWam said: I think Iron Mike put it best when it comes to assholes and trolls. "Social media made y'all way too comfortable with disrespecting people and not getting punched in the face for it".
Where is the lie, though? LOL!
Making smut is easy. Making art takes more!
CreamMeAgain said: So I had a couple of rude encounters with 2 members here and I feel the need to explain to everyone about the polite way to interact with models. You are not entitled to mine or anyone else's time on this website. I will answer my messages and my emails when I have the time to. I work 2 jobs, and on top of that, life happens and you have more than just work to deal with. You have no clue what is going on in a person's life, I could be out of town grieving the loss of a loved one with my family so I'm obviously not available to help you fap. So the polite thing to do is to ask if a person has time to get horny with you. We're not robots here, so please have some compassion.
This person was not only rude to me, but he felt the need put down another model here that I'm friends with just because she requires that you pay to chat with her. So let me explain it to you. Every professional adult performer I know charges for their time to chat. This is called sexting, and it's a service that you're asking from them. These models get a ton of requests every day to spend time with them online sexting. If we gave everyone our time that wanted it for free, we'd never have time to work or do anything else. So yes, if you want them to stop what they're doing to spend time with you just so you can fap, then make it worth their time.
Another rude member here who I've actually met up with in person and gotten messy with in the past before I was making content, decided they wanted to leave rude comments on one of my forum threads about how I'm not worth the money I'm asking people to pay for my scenes. He immediately deleted his comment because he knows that he's being an asshole and didn't want to listen to any responses about his obviously entitled behavior. But then he went to my OnlyFans page and left his comment there because I have less followers there and no one would respond to him there. And his big complaint is about buying subscriptions here on this site to get access to videos in my store. So let me break this down for you.
I spend my own money to make scenes. I want to make good quality scenes with good quality equipment. I want to hire other models to create good scenes. I live in a state where these things cost way more money. I need to make a certain amount from the scenes I produce so that I can make a profit. And at the most successful, I'm not even gaining income, I'm breaking even. So I'm only making enough money from one scene to make the next scene. So if you want me to make more scenes that you enjoy, I will need to price my scenes based on how much I made it for and how much I need to make from it in order to keep business going.
So yes, there are subscriptions for access to my videos, and after you subscribe, you get free access to my older content. The newer content is not free, but it's discounted. But if you didn't want to pay for the new scene after already buying a subscription, then all you have to do is just fuckin wait a few months and you'll get to download it for free. It's just that fucking easy, you just have to fucking wait.
So in conclusion, don't expect rude comments to get you anything from anyone just because you feel entitled to it. I don't owe anyone anything just because they want it from me, and the same applies to all models. Please be kind and be respectful of our time. That is all
***EDIT*** If any of you here feel harassed by another member, you can block and mute them. When you do, there's an option to explain why you're doing that, and this will actually help Mess Master know if someone is being problematic because they might be harassing everyone they encounter. And Mess Master will contact this person for you and warn them not to continue this behavior on your behalf. Mess Master will listen to you and wants everyone to have a good experience here, so please let him know if you're having a bad experience, he will answer your messages. Some people will get banned from the site if they're being abusive so please feel free to message Mess Master if someone is harassing you. ****END EDIT****
This person was not only rude to me, but he felt the need put down another model here that I'm friends with just because she requires that you pay to chat with her. So let me explain it to you. Every professional adult performer I know charges for their time to chat. This is called sexting, and it's a service that you're asking from them. These models get a ton of requests every day to spend time with them online sexting. If we gave everyone our time that wanted it for free, we'd never have time to work or do anything else. So yes, if you want them to stop what they're doing to spend time with you just so you can fap, then make it worth their time.
Another rude member here who I've actually met up with in person and gotten messy with in the past before I was making content, decided they wanted to leave rude comments on one of my forum threads about how I'm not worth the money I'm asking people to pay for my scenes. He immediately deleted his comment because he knows that he's being an asshole and didn't want to listen to any responses about his obviously entitled behavior. But then he went to my OnlyFans page and left his comment there because I have less followers there and no one would respond to him there. And his big complaint is about buying subscriptions here on this site to get access to videos in my store. So let me break this down for you.
I spend my own money to make scenes. I want to make good quality scenes with good quality equipment. I want to hire other models to create good scenes. I live in a state where these things cost way more money. I need to make a certain amount from the scenes I produce so that I can make a profit. And at the most successful, I'm not even gaining income, I'm breaking even. So I'm only making enough money from one scene to make the next scene. So if you want me to make more scenes that you enjoy, I will need to price my scenes based on how much I made it for and how much I need to make from it in order to keep business going.
So yes, there are subscriptions for access to my videos, and after you subscribe, you get free access to my older content. The newer content is not free, but it's discounted. But if you didn't want to pay for the new scene after already buying a subscription, then all you have to do is just fuckin wait a few months and you'll get to download it for free. It's just that fucking easy, you just have to fucking wait.
So in conclusion, don't expect rude comments to get you anything from anyone just because you feel entitled to it. I don't owe anyone anything just because they want it from me, and the same applies to all models. Please be kind and be respectful of our time. That is all
***EDIT*** If any of you here feel harassed by another member, you can block and mute them. When you do, there's an option to explain why you're doing that, and this will actually help Mess Master know if someone is being problematic because they might be harassing everyone they encounter. And Mess Master will contact this person for you and warn them not to continue this behavior on your behalf. Mess Master will listen to you and wants everyone to have a good experience here, so please let him know if you're having a bad experience, he will answer your messages. Some people will get banned from the site if they're being abusive so please feel free to message Mess Master if someone is harassing you. ****END EDIT****
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep truly is unfortunate that we have to encounter any asshat behavior like this. Sorry you went through that, but I'm sure you know you are far from alone. I especially get this around people wanting customs but barely want to pay anything because "it's all for fun" - no, if it were ALL for fun it would be something I want to make for my own store OR something I'm doing during my own personal time. Customs are a luxury and bespoke. Either buy ready mades or save up if your desired custom is too much. I try to educate people (when I have the energy and spoons) on what all goes into it and how their proposed price would put me at a loss... often falls to unlistening ears or them looking for a model who is too new, desperate, etc. to better valuate their time.
When I read your subject line I was hoping it was a fun new scene but deep down I knew it wasn't going to be good. I've been on here long enough I knew what was coming. I'm sorry you had to go though this but if there is one good thing that came from it you can see all the support you have.
Always looking for friends... So dont be shy.
MelonieNosha said: Customs are a luxury and bespoke. Either buy ready mades or save up if your desired custom is too much.
Say it louder for the people in the back!
Making smut is easy. Making art takes more!
MelonieNosha said:
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep truly is unfortunate that we have to encounter any asshat behavior like this. Sorry you went through that, but I'm sure you know you are far from alone. I especially get this around people wanting customs but barely want to pay anything because "it's all for fun" - no, if it were ALL for fun it would be something I want to make for my own store OR something I'm doing during my own personal time. Customs are a luxury and bespoke. Either buy ready mades or save up if your desired custom is too much. I try to educate people (when I have the energy and spoons) on what all goes into it and how their proposed price would put me at a loss... often falls to unlistening ears or them looking for a model who is too new, desperate, etc. to better valuate their time.
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep truly is unfortunate that we have to encounter any asshat behavior like this. Sorry you went through that, but I'm sure you know you are far from alone. I especially get this around people wanting customs but barely want to pay anything because "it's all for fun" - no, if it were ALL for fun it would be something I want to make for my own store OR something I'm doing during my own personal time. Customs are a luxury and bespoke. Either buy ready mades or save up if your desired custom is too much. I try to educate people (when I have the energy and spoons) on what all goes into it and how their proposed price would put me at a loss... often falls to unlistening ears or them looking for a model who is too new, desperate, etc. to better valuate their time.
THIS YES SO MUCH OF THIS Both you and DungeonMasterOne have really hit the head on the nail with this one. Like seriously, the incredibly fucking manipulative kind of person you have to be to pull this bullshit. It's so degrading and not in a fun sexy way. That whole, dangling the carrot in front of you with the promise of spending more money kind of thing is just humiliating when they ghost you. For me it's almost violating, like, you didn't have to go to those lengths just to get off with me secretly. I would totally have had this conversation in messaging, but this just feels like what they're getting off on is manipulating me and having some kind of power over leading me on. And then just ghosting is like, okay, I've used you, you're worthless now.
I really want us models and producers to start reporting these people who pull this shit because you're exactly right, they get predatory and go after newer models and give them bad experiences right out the gate and lower their expectations and may even cause them to feel inadequate and leave the site. It's caused me to not answer some custom requests because of it. It actually fucks with our business here.
VegasWam said: I think Iron Mike put it best when it comes to assholes and trolls. "Social media made y'all way too comfortable with disrespecting people and not getting punched in the face for it".
Oh my god, yes, FACTS
For me the free chatting wasn't nearly as upsetting as the guy who told me I wasn't worth buying the subscription for. That one really hurt me, because it wasn't private, he went out of his way to humiliate me in front of my followers. And the worst part is having a history with him so this was really personal. He was one of the first people I encountered on FetLife when I first got into WAM and he's the first person I ever got messy with. He was a really toxic person back then and after his comment, I'm convinced he still is. And he had given another much loved model here a bad experience too, and that was when I ended things with him, like immediately. It was obvious he had behavioral issues. At that time, I was barely on this site, and he left me alone since I wasn't a model or performer putting myself out there so I kind of forgot about him. But years later when I started getting more involved here on UMD, he friended me and I thought maybe he's gotten better, and he was such a part of my beginning in WAM, I thought I'd give him a chance. But his comment just triggered all those bad memories. And to be honest, I really shrunk away from creating content because of his comment. I was worried that he wasn't the only one who felt that way, like he was just rude enough to say what no one else was. I'm embarrassed to say that I let him affect me like that, but he did. And he's been rude to me off this site every time so it's not something he's doing to me here. Because he knows I'm loved here and wouldn't get away with it here, so it's much more manipulative.
And that's why I really want to thank Mess Master for helping me and supporting me every time I come to him with these concerns. He has already been taking care of these issues with these users and he is really thorough and goes the extra mile to ensure our safety here. On every other site you're dealing with a chat bot, or a distant admin who's not as involved in building a community the way Mess Master and his admins are. To get access to him so easily really makes a huge difference. I can't begin to tell you how much safer I feel here because of it. And I want to thank every one of you on this thread for your kindness and your support. It goes a long way for me and it builds this community up so much in many ways. You're all my tribe here!
And that's why I really want to thank Mess Master for helping me and supporting me every time I come to him with these concerns. He has already been taking care of these issues with these users and he is really thorough and goes the extra mile to ensure our safety here. On every other site you're dealing with a chat bot, or a distant admin who's not as involved in building a community the way Mess Master and his admins are. To get access to him so easily really makes a huge difference. I can't begin to tell you how much safer I feel here because of it. And I want to thank every one of you on this thread for your kindness and your support. It goes a long way for me and it builds this community up so much in many ways. You're all my tribe here!
10/28/23, 6:20pm: This post won't bump the thread to the top.
CreamMeAgain said:
THIS YES SO MUCH OF THIS Both you and DungeonMasterOne have really hit the head on the nail with this one. Like seriously, the incredibly fucking manipulative kind of person you have to be to pull this bullshit. It's so degrading and not in a fun sexy way. That whole, dangling the carrot in front of you with the promise of spending more money kind of thing is just humiliating when they ghost you. For me it's almost violating, like, you didn't have to go to those lengths just to get off with me secretly. I would totally have had this conversation in messaging, but this just feels like what they're getting off on is manipulating me and having some kind of power over leading me on. And then just ghosting is like, okay, I've used you, you're worthless now.
I really want us models and producers to start reporting these people who pull this shit because you're exactly right, they get predatory and go after newer models and give them bad experiences right out the gate and lower their expectations and may even cause them to feel inadequate and leave the site. It's caused me to not answer some custom requests because of it. It actually fucks with our business here.
MelonieNosha said:
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep truly is unfortunate that we have to encounter any asshat behavior like this. Sorry you went through that, but I'm sure you know you are far from alone. I especially get this around people wanting customs but barely want to pay anything because "it's all for fun" - no, if it were ALL for fun it would be something I want to make for my own store OR something I'm doing during my own personal time. Customs are a luxury and bespoke. Either buy ready mades or save up if your desired custom is too much. I try to educate people (when I have the energy and spoons) on what all goes into it and how their proposed price would put me at a loss... often falls to unlistening ears or them looking for a model who is too new, desperate, etc. to better valuate their time.
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep truly is unfortunate that we have to encounter any asshat behavior like this. Sorry you went through that, but I'm sure you know you are far from alone. I especially get this around people wanting customs but barely want to pay anything because "it's all for fun" - no, if it were ALL for fun it would be something I want to make for my own store OR something I'm doing during my own personal time. Customs are a luxury and bespoke. Either buy ready mades or save up if your desired custom is too much. I try to educate people (when I have the energy and spoons) on what all goes into it and how their proposed price would put me at a loss... often falls to unlistening ears or them looking for a model who is too new, desperate, etc. to better valuate their time.
THIS YES SO MUCH OF THIS Both you and DungeonMasterOne have really hit the head on the nail with this one. Like seriously, the incredibly fucking manipulative kind of person you have to be to pull this bullshit. It's so degrading and not in a fun sexy way. That whole, dangling the carrot in front of you with the promise of spending more money kind of thing is just humiliating when they ghost you. For me it's almost violating, like, you didn't have to go to those lengths just to get off with me secretly. I would totally have had this conversation in messaging, but this just feels like what they're getting off on is manipulating me and having some kind of power over leading me on. And then just ghosting is like, okay, I've used you, you're worthless now.
I really want us models and producers to start reporting these people who pull this shit because you're exactly right, they get predatory and go after newer models and give them bad experiences right out the gate and lower their expectations and may even cause them to feel inadequate and leave the site. It's caused me to not answer some custom requests because of it. It actually fucks with our business here.
The only ways I know of to avoid the "long detailed discussions of a fantasy custom that's never actually going to be ordered" issue is to either insist on payment per message for detailed discussions, or insist on no detailed discussions till a large non-refundable deposit has been paid. Because unless you put a substantial financial roadblock in the way, there are people out there who can and will take advantage to have a sexy conversation, and as you say, lead you on with the promise of a payment they've no intention of ever making.
We've deliberately scaled back our customs work, partly because of the huge amount of both worry and work customs are. And when we do take a custom on, we insist on at least 50% deposit in advance, and that's non-refundable unless for whatever reason we are unable to shoot the scene. And our customs start at £300 (inc VAT) plus any specific outfit requirements or other special items. And of course, being male, I tend not to get anyone wanting to have long "sexting-like" conversations about customs, generally four or five messages plus receipt of the desired script are all it takes to set one up.
The thing with shooting our own scenes, if a model drops out last minute for some reason, it doesn't matter, we can either postpone the shoots or shoot something completely different with the remaining people. Or once we've started, if someone goes off script or does things in the wrong order, no matter, we can just roll with it. If someone goes off-plan in a custom shoot though, we basically have to scrap it completely, wash everything (and everyone), and re-shoot it most likely on another day, but still pay everyone for both days. So there's a fuckton more worry in the run up to a day of custom shoots than there is with just our own stuff.
So we will still do customs if the timings, models, and concepts are all going to work out. But we don't pursue or promote custom work.
And after all that, and despite the high price, the actual profit on most custom scenes after all costs and fees are deducted is about fifty quid. And given customs are often things producers aren't doing as mainline scenes because they are niche, there's no guarentee they will sell to anyone else. So spending hours of time in negotiation, for a performer who's time is actually valuable, just doesn't make sense unless charged for.
Aside: Ta for getting the name right!
***Edit*** Read your later comment. Really sorry that happened to you. There are some awful people out there. ***hugs***
Saturation Hall - Forth! The Gungemaidens!
Hi Creamy. I'm so sorry that someone would disrespect you like that. You are a beautiful person and it's always wonderful to communicate with you about our shared passion for getting messy.
Pasta said: Models definitely go through the wringer in this community, in all sorts of ways, but I just hope no one thinks it's a site-specific problem. It's wider than that.
To be clear, it isn't site specific and this isn't a unique phenomenon exclusive to this niche of the community. It's rampant throughout the entire adult/fetish community and even seeps it's way into PG modeling (ask me how I know). I feel to declare otherwise is understating the issue.
The best practice is for producers and community members alike to address it vehemently. They do not represent us. I also feel that instances like this one present a coaching moment for all of us to better learn how to interact with models of all genres and to be a more welcoming community.
Does it suck when assholes like this pop their head from under a rock and say something stupid? Of course but as we have seen in this thread, it can be both a unifying and educational moment for the rest of us.
Making smut is easy. Making art takes more!
CreamMeAgain said: For me the free chatting wasn't nearly as upsetting as the guy who told me I wasn't worth buying the subscription for. That one really hurt me, because it wasn't private, he went out of his way to humiliate me in front of my followers. And the worst part is having a history with him so this was really personal. He was one of the first people I encountered on FetLife when I first got into WAM and he's the first person I ever got messy with. He was a really toxic person back then and after his comment, I'm convinced he still is. And he had given another much loved model here a bad experience too, and that was when I ended things with him, like immediately. It was obvious he had behavioral issues. At that time, I was barely on this site, and he left me alone since I wasn't a model or performer putting myself out there so I kind of forgot about him. But years later when I started getting more involved here on UMD, he friended me and I thought maybe he's gotten better, and he was such a part of my beginning in WAM, I thought I'd give him a chance. But his comment just triggered all those bad memories. And to be honest, I really shrunk away from creating content because of his comment. I was worried that he wasn't the only one who felt that way, like he was just rude enough to say what no one else was. I'm embarrassed to say that I let him affect me like that, but he did. And he's been rude to me off this site every time so it's not something he's doing to me here. Because he knows I'm loved here and wouldn't get away with it here, so it's much more manipulative.
And that's why I really want to thank Mess Master for helping me and supporting me every time I come to him with these concerns. He has already been taking care of these issues with these users and he is really thorough and goes the extra mile to ensure our safety here. On every other site you're dealing with a chat bot, or a distant admin who's not as involved in building a community the way Mess Master and his admins are. To get access to him so easily really makes a huge difference. I can't begin to tell you how much safer I feel here because of it. And I want to thank every one of you on this thread for your kindness and your support. It goes a long way for me and it builds this community up so much in many ways. You're all my tribe here!
And that's why I really want to thank Mess Master for helping me and supporting me every time I come to him with these concerns. He has already been taking care of these issues with these users and he is really thorough and goes the extra mile to ensure our safety here. On every other site you're dealing with a chat bot, or a distant admin who's not as involved in building a community the way Mess Master and his admins are. To get access to him so easily really makes a huge difference. I can't begin to tell you how much safer I feel here because of it. And I want to thank every one of you on this thread for your kindness and your support. It goes a long way for me and it builds this community up so much in many ways. You're all my tribe here!
I've literally washed my hands of Fetlife. I went on there in hopes to possibly advertise on there but what I found was mostly the dregs of the fetish world who probably got kicked off every forum and wound up there.
I can't possibly count on how many instances in the past year I got this discussion in my inbox:
Member: Hi! How much would it be to session with one if your ladies (hint: they aren't "mine" *eyeroll*)
Me: Unfortunately we do not provide sessions however if you wish, I suggest Sessiongirls. They have many women who might tour your area
Member: Yeah, I tried Sessiongirls but they got to be expensive. I'm just looking for likeminded folks who permit it (ie for free).
Me: *Flips table*
Making smut is easy. Making art takes more!
CreamMeAgain said: .... [ edited] You're all my tribe here!
You know how I feel about you, and our friendship. And, I know I speak for so many that I can fairly, and accurately, say: we love you. You are f-ing amazing. And personally, I can safely and accurately say that you're one of the most kind, wise, fabulous and amazing people a person could find the good fortune to meet.
Dis guy (translated from Chicago-ese, "this guy"), is a jagoff (trans: "jerkface") and is not only wrong (trans "bonehead"), but needlessly cruel ("jagoff"). For everyone who is subject to criticism on the web: ignore the critics. Embrace the love. All else is nonsense.
On the web, I write pie kink stories (love/hate), music (hate/love), and other stuff (just hate apparently). So I hope I can safely say: I get it. Don't read the comments, they are radioactive. Bask in the love of those who love you; and those who snipe to make themselves feel more important, or feel stronger, or feel better, or more "moral" (whatever), or... [fill in the blank].. that is on them. It has nothing to do with you.
Now, all that said my personal 2 cents is that you are fabulous, sexy, a goddam GODDESS if you ask me, and as your friend not only do I love you but can see that obviously so many others do as well.
Which is freaking awesome, in anyone's book.
So f*** the naysayers and small men. They ain't us anyways.
Now as to the REST of you I have a crush on, I'll get to you later.
Love to all.
DungeonMasterOne said:
The only ways I know of to avoid the "long detailed discussions of a fantasy custom that's never actually going to be ordered" issue is to either insist on payment per message for detailed discussions, or insist on no detailed discussions till a large non-refundable deposit has been paid. Because unless you put a substantial financial roadblock in the way, there are people out there who can and will take advantage to have a sexy conversation, and as you say, lead you on with the promise of a payment they've no intention of ever making.
We've deliberately scaled back our customs work, partly because of the huge amount of both worry and work customs are. And when we do take a custom on, we insist on at least 50% deposit in advance, and that's non-refundable unless for whatever reason we are unable to shoot the scene. And our customs start at £300 (inc VAT) plus any specific outfit requirements or other special items. And of course, being male, I tend not to get anyone wanting to have long "sexting-like" conversations about customs, generally four or five messages plus receipt of the desired script are all it takes to set one up.
The thing with shooting our own scenes, if a model drops out last minute for some reason, it doesn't matter, we can either postpone the shoots or shoot something completely different with the remaining people. Or once we've started, if someone goes off script or does things in the wrong order, no matter, we can just roll with it. If someone goes off-plan in a custom shoot though, we basically have to scrap it completely, wash everything (and everyone), and re-shoot it most likely on another day, but still pay everyone for both days. So there's a fuckton more worry in the run up to a day of custom shoots than there is with just our own stuff.
So we will still do customs if the timings, models, and concepts are all going to work out. But we don't pursue or promote custom work.
And after all that, and despite the high price, the actual profit on most custom scenes after all costs and fees are deducted is about fifty quid. And given customs are often things producers aren't doing as mainline scenes because they are niche, there's no guarentee they will sell to anyone else. So spending hours of time in negotiation, for a performer who's time is actually valuable, just doesn't make sense unless charged for.
Aside: Ta for getting the name right!
***Edit*** Read your later comment. Really sorry that happened to you. There are some awful people out there. ***hugs***
CreamMeAgain said:
THIS YES SO MUCH OF THIS Both you and DungeonMasterOne have really hit the head on the nail with this one. Like seriously, the incredibly fucking manipulative kind of person you have to be to pull this bullshit. It's so degrading and not in a fun sexy way. That whole, dangling the carrot in front of you with the promise of spending more money kind of thing is just humiliating when they ghost you. For me it's almost violating, like, you didn't have to go to those lengths just to get off with me secretly. I would totally have had this conversation in messaging, but this just feels like what they're getting off on is manipulating me and having some kind of power over leading me on. And then just ghosting is like, okay, I've used you, you're worthless now.
I really want us models and producers to start reporting these people who pull this shit because you're exactly right, they get predatory and go after newer models and give them bad experiences right out the gate and lower their expectations and may even cause them to feel inadequate and leave the site. It's caused me to not answer some custom requests because of it. It actually fucks with our business here.
MelonieNosha said:
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep truly is unfortunate that we have to encounter any asshat behavior like this. Sorry you went through that, but I'm sure you know you are far from alone. I especially get this around people wanting customs but barely want to pay anything because "it's all for fun" - no, if it were ALL for fun it would be something I want to make for my own store OR something I'm doing during my own personal time. Customs are a luxury and bespoke. Either buy ready mades or save up if your desired custom is too much. I try to educate people (when I have the energy and spoons) on what all goes into it and how their proposed price would put me at a loss... often falls to unlistening ears or them looking for a model who is too new, desperate, etc. to better valuate their time.
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep truly is unfortunate that we have to encounter any asshat behavior like this. Sorry you went through that, but I'm sure you know you are far from alone. I especially get this around people wanting customs but barely want to pay anything because "it's all for fun" - no, if it were ALL for fun it would be something I want to make for my own store OR something I'm doing during my own personal time. Customs are a luxury and bespoke. Either buy ready mades or save up if your desired custom is too much. I try to educate people (when I have the energy and spoons) on what all goes into it and how their proposed price would put me at a loss... often falls to unlistening ears or them looking for a model who is too new, desperate, etc. to better valuate their time.
THIS YES SO MUCH OF THIS Both you and DungeonMasterOne have really hit the head on the nail with this one. Like seriously, the incredibly fucking manipulative kind of person you have to be to pull this bullshit. It's so degrading and not in a fun sexy way. That whole, dangling the carrot in front of you with the promise of spending more money kind of thing is just humiliating when they ghost you. For me it's almost violating, like, you didn't have to go to those lengths just to get off with me secretly. I would totally have had this conversation in messaging, but this just feels like what they're getting off on is manipulating me and having some kind of power over leading me on. And then just ghosting is like, okay, I've used you, you're worthless now.
I really want us models and producers to start reporting these people who pull this shit because you're exactly right, they get predatory and go after newer models and give them bad experiences right out the gate and lower their expectations and may even cause them to feel inadequate and leave the site. It's caused me to not answer some custom requests because of it. It actually fucks with our business here.
The only ways I know of to avoid the "long detailed discussions of a fantasy custom that's never actually going to be ordered" issue is to either insist on payment per message for detailed discussions, or insist on no detailed discussions till a large non-refundable deposit has been paid. Because unless you put a substantial financial roadblock in the way, there are people out there who can and will take advantage to have a sexy conversation, and as you say, lead you on with the promise of a payment they've no intention of ever making.
We've deliberately scaled back our customs work, partly because of the huge amount of both worry and work customs are. And when we do take a custom on, we insist on at least 50% deposit in advance, and that's non-refundable unless for whatever reason we are unable to shoot the scene. And our customs start at £300 (inc VAT) plus any specific outfit requirements or other special items. And of course, being male, I tend not to get anyone wanting to have long "sexting-like" conversations about customs, generally four or five messages plus receipt of the desired script are all it takes to set one up.
The thing with shooting our own scenes, if a model drops out last minute for some reason, it doesn't matter, we can either postpone the shoots or shoot something completely different with the remaining people. Or once we've started, if someone goes off script or does things in the wrong order, no matter, we can just roll with it. If someone goes off-plan in a custom shoot though, we basically have to scrap it completely, wash everything (and everyone), and re-shoot it most likely on another day, but still pay everyone for both days. So there's a fuckton more worry in the run up to a day of custom shoots than there is with just our own stuff.
So we will still do customs if the timings, models, and concepts are all going to work out. But we don't pursue or promote custom work.
And after all that, and despite the high price, the actual profit on most custom scenes after all costs and fees are deducted is about fifty quid. And given customs are often things producers aren't doing as mainline scenes because they are niche, there's no guarentee they will sell to anyone else. So spending hours of time in negotiation, for a performer who's time is actually valuable, just doesn't make sense unless charged for.
Aside: Ta for getting the name right!
***Edit*** Read your later comment. Really sorry that happened to you. There are some awful people out there. ***hugs***
LOL - depending on the experience with the client I charge 25-50 for a consultation and quote. I still get individuals walking away after plans, buying outfits (I think they think I'll wear them anyway HA! I won't out of spite :bahaha
. A couple times after a half down! Being a she/they some really like to milk the payments like I'm now on retainer *eye roll* And it's too bad really, because I LOVE MAKING CUSTOMS. Making kind people a special treat just for them - adore it! I mean, sure, it's better when I walk away with a little money (believe me I get those feeling entitled to anything for free) but at that point I have a project I've spent energy on and I'm not going to do it now out of principle. As a person who likes to check off lists - it drives me batty and makes me a bit deflated at times.
