Nah, the problem is totally solvable. I included that in my last message, you even touched on it. The solution is this - instead of saying something, just don't instead. But even saying this now is counterintuitive to said solution.

Interestingly, other people were talking about specific things regarding said actress in question (picking apart) before me. It just happens that my responses were in the minority and not in favor (positive). I think I said something like 'I don't see the appeal' to start. People were already judging her attractiveness. I just chimed in that I didn't agree and pointed out why. In particular, my unfamiliarity with her work in a broader spectrum; and her lack of something that tends to be highly coveted in traditional attractiveness in today's western society in females...a big round buttocks.

This is why I now see why I'm part of the problem. No response is the best response if you're not in the majority opinion on pretty much any topic (ESPECIALLY if you're minority opinion is not the positive opinion). People can't seem to simply disagree on one thing and move on. My dislike of an actress's work (based on what I've seen of her work), and my personal opinion of her level of attractiveness (on a fetish forum, in a thread about her) seem to have left a blight on my personal character.

And it's completely understandable, you are right to suggest that my comments could/would/did/do make certain people or groups more self conscious, feel dissected, even if the comments or criticism wasn't about or directed at them personally (out of context). This is because many people identify with groups more than individually. So a negative criticism against one particular woman, about one particular thing, such as a 'flat ass'; in a discussion about attractiveness and personal opinions, can create non affected individuals who identify in that group (women in this case) to feel attacked.

I get it. Does it make sense? No, not to me, but I understand that it does for others.

So again, I believe if you or any other woman here felt or experienced any of those things that you mentioned, than I was taken out of context as they were not directed at you, or "Women TM". They were directed at the forum in regards to my perception of the individual in question.

Now, am I responsible of those feelings/experiences? I think so, because regardless of my intent, I caused them to happen with my words.

So again, I apologize for any distress this has caused anyone.

However, it doesn't change my current opinion that Brie Larson is a bad actor. It also doesn't change the fact that she could possibly split logs with that sharp of a boner butt.

Well said, and bravo, Kittenish! I couldn't agree more. A time or two in the past, I tried to point out how certain posts here in the forums might send the wrong message to women without meaning to - especially the polls rating "hotness" and favorites, and so on.

You said it so much better than I did.

Bee

Oh, and to stay on topic: nothing wrong with earning a little cash for doing something you enjoy. That doesn't make someone "less" of a wammer. Also nothing wrong with wamming just for the money, so long as you are professional about it and do good work for your client/producer/whomever you're doing it for and deliver what you said you would deliver.

How does this keep getting worse instead of better...?

Oh boy. Where to start.

Two things.

1. "The failure mode of clever is "asshole."" - John Scalzi. Need I say more about this one.? Gentlemen: please learn this one. If you're not absolutely certain; don't post.

2. Ambient sexism/objectification. It's easy to fall into this one, we don't even have to be aware of it. We (men) grew up learning that a woman's value is simply a function of her attractiveness. "Rocket Scientist? PFFT! Fuck that, unless she's also Miss April." At some point in our lives (age 18 is a good start), we need to own this shit. We'll feel whatever we feel; but opening our mouths is in our control, so no excuses here.

If we do say something ST00PID, just own up to it, take responsibility, move on and do better next time.

Just to foreground some context (assuming we're thinking about the same post) -- I thought the point of that thread was to invite people to contribute to a site that was focused solely on curating G-rated messy content, and whose M.O. involved soliciting accidental erotica from Facebook dentists and soccer moms.

So, in fairness, the klaxons were already going off when you started dropping mad lyrics defaming Brie Larson's butt. But your digression didn't help either -- not unless you were trying to create a distraction while the perpetrators of the thread made their getaway out the back door in their jalopy.

I know you may not understand why women may feel sensitive even if your comments are not explicitly directed at them. That's why I am telling you, as a woman, that this is a microcosm of the sexism women experience daily. It doesn't need to be about me for me to recognize it and to encourage you to consider how you speak to and about women.

Even outside of that context, would you honestly make those sorts of comments to someone if she was standing in front of you? Would you want comments like that made about you or someone you cared about? I would certainly hope not, but if you can't see how cruel and unnecessary they are, I'm not sure what else I can tell you.

Yes, it absolutely helps if men curb themselves when they want to say something patronizing or unkind. But the solution is not as simple as "silence." My hope in speaking up was that even a few men here might honestly hear and reflect on how their attitudes and comments and modes of thinking could be hurtful and unwelcoming to women, even when they don't mean it or realize it. And that those men might make even one small gesture toward positive change that starts to shift and lift the whole community. I've put about the maximum amount of energy I want towards this effort, so I'm going to leave it at that.

And to the original post, I'm not a model so this topic isn't really about me, but I'll still say I have shared lots of my personal content over the years, all for love and never because I was paid to do it. So I can tell you for a fact there are women in the world who enjoy and sexualize WAM, you guys just scare them off. I became more active in the community because I rarely saw women posting, and I've hoped for years that I could contribute in some way with my pics and my participation to an environment where women with WAM fetishes could feel comfortable and included here. I think we've made some strides but gosh is there a long way to go.

Personally, I've always viewed absolutely everyone on this site (and in life) as a human being - and treated and spoken of people - male and female - with that due respect.

Women are powerful players in this game - and generally pretty generous ones at that, boys. It's best not to forget that and to treat them right. When you are dealing equitably with another human being the interaction is a negotiation - not a 'done deal'. Female performance is burlesque. Truly equitable interactions bear in mind carefully observed and respected boundaries and demand the respectful appreciation of an audience who knows the difference between fantasy and reality.

Our biggest obstacle to to a respectful state of intersexual harmony, however, is anonymity. We can't ever expect to have a truly high functioning society where 80 or 90 percent of members remain anonymous yet, ironically and paradoxically, we probably would lose most of those members without that hiding place. The worst behaviour emanates from anonymity.

For those to whom I refer in the paragraph above (the majority?!), this is not a community but a one stop shop for specialist wank material - much of it free. These ghosts have nothing vested in creating successful relationships. Some are only behaving antisocially for the sheer sexually frustrated hell of it. We can't expect socially high functioning behaviour from this group, but should we tolerate and or ignore their excesses?

It's left to the rest of us - who are either identifiable or project an identity vividly (and personal) enough to own a conscience (and preach to the converted :halo

This thread has diverged a bit, with 2 separate questions:
* Do WAM models actually enjoy getting messy?
* Is it ok to rate women based on their attractiveness, especially given that this is a fetish forum?

I didn't want to go off-topic, but I think there is some overlap between them. Basically, it depends whether you see WAM as an "us and them" situation (women are here to entertain and men are here to be entertained) or whether you see it as a shared interest that goes across sex/gender.

Thinking back to the London Splosh Games, there were some women who came along as participants, i.e. they paid to be there and get messy rather than being paid. Similarly, I've been to splunches (non-messy), where women have come along to chat about WAM, maybe because they've heard about it and are curious to know more.

Given that context, I'd like everyone to feel welcome. However, if there are a bunch of guys saying things like "she's a butterface" or "I wouldn't kick her out of bed, but I'd want the lights off", that's going to create a hostile environment, and make women feel that they're being judged too. (Just to clarify, this never happened at any of the London events I went to.)

Putting it another way, there are some websites (e.g. "Am I hot or not?") where people specifically volunteer to be rated from 1-10. So, feel free to cast your vote there, even if it is a minority opinion. However, I don't think it's very constructive to do it here.

As I said above, when I go to non-wam munches, there are loads of other women who want to try WAM. Jo organised the event on the Wirral. In my experience, there are a lot of women who are active WAMers (I count myself amongst them, as would, I suspect, most of the women on this forum), women who are active on the fetish scene who want to try WAM and people who aren't really that kinky who probably would like to do it.

I was talking to someone not so long ago in the wider fetish scene who wanted to try WAM, and we were discussing whether to do an event. But, TBH, we probably wouldn't advertise it on here, simply because of the attitudes that have been highlighted higher up this thread.