MM has now acted, Leon is gone, his new store already closed and presumably the others to follow once current subscribers expire.

My take (was refining this for posting to the other thread but perhaps better here): Regarding how an individual should be treated, in the UK we have a register of sexual offenders, it's not public to prevent vigilante attacks but its operation is well known, below is a partial quote from a news article in the Northern Echo newspaper explaining the details of how it works:


Based on that, I'm of the opinion that any individual convicted of a sexual offence by the courts should be banned from UMD for the length of time they would be on the register for. And that the T&C should state that anyone convicted of a sexual offence should not join, or remain a member, until that offence is legally "spent". I'm assuming other developed countries have similar laws and the concept of an offence being spent (debt to society paid) - can anyone confirm that?

To allow for miscarriages of justice, if someone clears their name and gets a conviction overturned, they can be allowed back immediately.

(Was going to be part of a longer post but this is the core part)

I think there's a discord? Idk I'm not on it but I'll probably check it out. From what I've heard it's pretty poorly run but this might be an opportunity to start a new server with competent moderation

Ok, true story; there's an active producer here who cost me tens of thousands of dollars by operating a pirate forum that specifically targeted MPV. (The home page of the forum prominently displayed the MPV logo).

And while other producers had something to say to MM about it, I never did. That's because this is his house/business, not mine. (The person in question is, however, persona non grata at quicksandfans).

My point is that when someone commits an offense away from UMD, there are other, appropriate venues for investigation, judgement and punishment. It seems that these were exercised for the issue at hand.

There's no practical need to drag external issues here for further examination/action.

Penny, I respect you but this post is not fair. I've been talking with you and tons of people and getting advice, and also making moves in the backend to prepare not only for Leon's exit but to figure out who else needs to go, what to do with policy, and how to communicate this to our community in a way that can possibly bring us back together.

As I'm doing that, the whole time you've been out here accusing me of basically enabling a rapist, as if I've already made the decision to keep Leon around, which I told you was not true. I told you exactly what was happening and I've asked you to give me time to lead the community on this so things don't end even worse for us in the long-run, but you would not give any benefit of the doubt. You cut the conversation short and stopped talking to me. Immediate action on the front-end may look good, but real introspection about the entire process is where I'm at. It's been 3 days and the reverberations about this will heard on this site forever. Give me a minute.

This is all I'll say about me, because it's not about me and I'm not a victim. I just think it's important to respond to this and let the community know they have never been left alone. People need to feel safe here, because they are safe. I'm writing more responses and will post them soon.

Peace,
Messmaster

Someone post a link to that fuck around / find out TED talk

Classy... Do a point for point response or don't bother.

Just a friendly reminder guys:

We have a Terms of Service that looks to be being broken by one or two individuals with nearly every single post they are making.

Anyone who feels a bit uncomfortable, there are other ways of making your feelings known without weighing into any discussions. Feel it's important to mention to those who may feel strongly but not brave enough to disagree with certain things being said, from certain individuals who keep ranting on.

Personally, very quickly; I think Penny has every right to step away, and also if she wants to fairly make a statement on it - after all, she has decided to leave so case closed on that front really. There is FAR worse that has come to light in the past couple of days; priorities and morality people.

Vote Biden in the mid-terms

You don't deserve a point by point response because you comments have all the same tone. Men are the victim, women have it coming, obviously Leon the guilty sex offender is the true victim. Women should be here for your and everyone like you's pleasure. Truthfully that was my classier response. If you want the truth it'll be far worse. Btw you are so proud of your comment it is gone and you didn't bother to quote it here because you obviously are ashamed of it or you realize everyone is going to know you are truthfully scared of women.

A psychotic, political, stupid and meaningless screed; a laundry list of moronic MAGA buzzwords strung together like someone spilled a bowl of alphabet soup. It's not worthy of a response. Is stepping in dogshit worthy of a response? No, you scrape it off of your boot, and move on. This is the DM equivalent of a vile turd, delivered with malice, hate, and the intent to harm.

A message like this to another member of this site is f'ing ridiculous. I trust that MM and the admins are handling this.

There is an open forum of opinions, and there is personal attack. This is a personal attack (and from a very weak, [pejorative removed -MM] who, if he had any brains at all, would turn off the television and go read a book or three, starting with the Constitution and the Book of Matthew).

MAGAChris, What you know about class can be fit into a thimble with room for all of the contents of a thimble.

[flame off]

Chris, as I have read your posts in this thread and others you remind me of a friend of mine. They lived in Seattle. Seattle right now is a hot bed of far right and far left extremism. It is a gaslighting mess. My friend had to move out of Seattle to get away from that environment of constant gaslighting. It has made them a better person. Please consider doing the same.

This thread is not about you. Yet you have made it about you. This thread is about Penny, her feelings and saying goodbye. At least show an ounce of decency and respect that.

UMD/MM made the decision, and I understand the tough position he is in.

Go read the original post, which was started by Penny, politicizing the outcome of this entire thing. I have no sympathy for far left extremist "activist" who are seeking to destroying everyone and anyone that do not conform to their Borg mindset.

Yes, I deal with these people where I live everyday. They can shout loud and yell a lot. So can I.

They're not allegations - they're fact. I have the video.

That's slander. So quote me, or stop putting words in my mouth.

That word does not mean what you think it means.

Books. Try 'em. They're good. Educational and whatnot.

Slander? Seriously? I am just saying what everyone interpreted your Misogynistic Manifesto to read. Maybe you need to read your own word and try to interpret them yourself. Either way if you didn't get your law degree from watching Fox News you would learn what I typed was not ever close to slander but an opinion.

Alright, let's talk about misogyny. Cause it seems like to you everything is misogyny.

Here's what is misogyny to me (at least this was the definition when I was growing up and it still is). Examples:
- Believing women are inferior to men
- Believing women should have less rights then men (like voting, getting jobs, etc.)
- Treating women badly, and let's be specific: rape, molest, violence, etc. those kind of stuff that lands people in prison
- Abusing power dynamics to get sexual favors from women

Now, if I supported any of these points, show it to me. I did not.

Here's what misogyny by your standards. Examples:
- Wanting to determine facts especially in a "he said, she said" situation, and taking more time to deliberate and make a decision
- Concerned about the legitimacy of specific rulings because we know it's highly subjective and politicized these days
- Not immediately believing the victim
- Asking questions (to the victim), having a discussion and debate, especially if multiple perspectives are provided
- Being related to or continue doing business with the convicted person (guilt by association)
- Asking if it is warranted to go beyond the legal punishment already handed out
- Wanting the punishment to be proportionate to the crime
- Men are your customers, so try not to take it too far in insulting your customers
- Saying mean stuff or "mean tweets" or just factual observations that hurts people's feelings
- Not pledging to be "down with the patriarchy"
- "Activism" for more damage to this platform, when things have been by all objective standards resolved in your favor
- Lack of tolerance for anything but what they want

For crying out loud, some people are reacting like Leon is Harvey Weinstein (and we knew that piece of shit never got convicted... so much for the legal system).

Pure horseshit. None of this is based in reality. More political nonsense by the [pejorative removed -MM] who loves nothing more than to throw bombs in the UMD forum and cry for his mama when he gets called out on his pure, unadulterated horse manure.

What is evident here from MAGAChris is "The rules for me are not for thee". Another laundry list of Mindless MAGA talking points from our resident fuck-your-feelings you-hurt-my-feelings incel snowflake who blames all of his own problems on wimmins, libtards, simps, and George Soros.

Cry me a river, Mister Misunderstood. And for god's sake, start thinking. These posts are moronic, meaningless, used-toilet-paper political screeds not even a 6th grader would own up to.

Do better, or sit down.

Your Manifesto has been wiped from Umd so let's just go with what you have said. You have chosen to believe a man who in his own words felt up a model after a shoot. It isn't like there is a question the event happened. He testified to it under oath. Secondly, feeling like you a man should even have a right to question or judge a victim of a sexual assault. That is and of itself is holding yourself above a woman. The fact that you use terms like patriarch and man hating. The women in this group don't hate men. They hate men like you and how you are behaving. The fact that you can't see why we would not want someone who abused a woman or the people that hid it from this forum to be here just says to the women here that if this happens to you then we won't believe you or treat you as equals with respect. Then belittling women because they chose to do this to either have fun or make some extra money or both.

I did say this is a grey area "he said she said" situation, and given my life experience and the current political climate, I am inclined to believe him. Why? Because he pleaded guilty and he's not in prison. If it was as terrible as you said, we would not be having this conversation today and Leon would be behind bars.

Every person has the right to question and form an opinion and yes "judge" others. Our jury system allows both men and women to serve in such cases. Your ideas that only women can judge women is ridiculous and goes against the principles that founded our modern society, and itself is putting men and women on UNEQUAL footing. That is misogynistic.

Go and re-read my post, real sexual abusers would be behind bars, and we would not need to have this conversation because their business would not exist. My point of contention is your witch hunt.

And you're full of shit, especially this statement: "Then belittling women because they chose to do this to either have fun or make some extra money or both." Quote me or stop putting words in my mouth.

I have no problems with women being in this profession, I need them to be in this profession. I have a problem when they start the political activism and attacking other men here, which is what the original post was about. If you want to be an activist, go be one but do it on your own clock and when you're on the job, at least be professional and keep business separate from your personal life.

My 2 cents worth: If someone is either convicted of a sexual crime, or it's well-known that they are a perv towards their models, they should be banned.

If someone is convicted of a non-sexual crime, it has no real bearing on things here, unless they are dishonest and operate a store.

Perhaps too, a stronger policy on respect for women. Yes, with WAM they become 'objects' of our desire, but they are certainly not objects at all, they are human beings. We need to treat them that way, and if someone disagrees, it ought to be grounds for banning, if we are to keep this a safe place for women.

A real grey area is when WAM gets mixed with bondage. We may see a scene where a woman is tied down and pied or otherwise messed up against her wishes. She may even struggle, and we've all seen the ball-gags, the forced-eating devices and more on here. Who gets off on seeing that? People who fantasize about doing similar in real life? Why are we catering to those who fantasize about harming women? (even if they don't and no models are harmed)

I'm jumping ahead too far, but these thoughts occurred to me and I thought I'd express them before I forget them.

This is a pedantic point, but I don't think that's quite true. You have to take an oath when you give evidence during a trial, but not when you enter the plea ("guilty" or "not guilty") during an arraignment. See:
https://www.cps.gov.uk/rasso-guide/first-hearing-crown-court-plea-and-trial-preparation-hearing-0

However, I don't think it makes much practical difference. I.e. if you stand up in a courtroom and say "I'm guilty" then you shouldn't really be surprised when people believe that you're guilty.

As usual, feels good in principle, open to abuse in reality. Alright, what's stopping a female model who had a business falling out with a male producers to start a fuss here and say "he's a perv to me"?


Now, we have the crazies coming out from the woodwork. So in your other post you don't like quicksand. Now you don't like bondage, and force feeding too. Hey you know what, I'm not into those stuff as well. But intolerant extremist like yourself will casts whatever you don't like as "doing harm". Jesus Christ, pass your moral judgement somewhere else.

I'm just going to try and steer this back on topic and offer my support for Ms. Banks. I would love to go on a rant about how both these threads have brought out the absolute worst in this community. I'd love to rant about how this is the most embarrassed, ashamed and disdainful I've been of this place since I've been here, and I'm slowly getting the sinking feeling that it's only going to get worse. I'd love to go on a rant about how a week's worth of incels, misogynists, predators, rape apologists and women hating, faux-intellectual, buzzword spewing, victim blaming dregs holding back progress have crawled out of their dark, moldy corners of the internet, and yet it's people trying to make a positive change like Penny that are made to feel like leaving is the only course of action. I'd love to launch frustrated attacks at certain people and express genuine concern for the women in their lives but I don't want to make this about me and make this place just a breeding ground for more idiocy and speaking out of either strong emotions or just plain hate.

So all I'll say is I'm really sorry to see you go, Penny. So much more than just content, you've been a voice of reason, an advocate for those who don't feel safe to speak, and have been brave enough to offer opinions from the perspective of a producer, a woman, and unfortunately a sexual assault survivor. And although it's depressing that that's just one more needed, valuable voice that this site really needs to get better gone, and the site is now inching ever more towards the side of people that either don't know or just plain don't care about the views, safety and experiences of women and any other marginalized or vulnerable demographic here on UMD, I can absolutely empathize and understand your decision to leave. I just wish more people had the smarts, experience and bravery to speak up like you have, because that's the only way positive change is going to happen. I know it probably doesn't feel like it but at least a small handful of people have been encouraged and felt brave enough to speak up because of you, myself included. I know it's not much, but you can rest easy you did some good while you were here. I'm sorry the vast majority haven't benefitted, or worse, actively stood against it.

I really hope you find somewhere you aren't made to feel unsafe, doesn't damage your physical and mental health and where you are wanted, respected, valued and safe. You deserve it. You made a difference here, and a small group of people really value what you've brought as a person and advocate, not just a content creator. Go well. Much aroha.

You are siding with Leon who he's admitted he groped the model over the model. There is no grey area when both parties agree the act happened. You are asking the victim to explain herself to you. Who the fuck are you to request that? You don't have the right to judge anyone. A court does and the court found there was cause and judged him. As for you theory about he'd be in jail if he was guilty. This is not a rape, thank god, there are plenty of situation where men have not gotten jail time and forced to go into counseling. Your logic is stupid and moronic if that is the excuse you are using. "Your line of work" "we are your customers" like men are in charge of what content women make. You are attacking a woman, penny, and then claiming the real victim is Leon. Do you know what though, if you can't see it then you aren't going to. So, I will repeat what I said earlier. Slither back under whatever rock you climbed out of and fuck off.

No sadly it was not and is not (well maybe the very early days before it was so commercial). Look at how many women join and leave due to nature of the people on the site. Yes there is good and bad in all life, sites groups etc but we do seem to have more than our fair share.

What life experience would that be, exactly?

And he pleaded guilty under the bad advice of his attorney and the personal situation he was in (kids and that stuff). There was no judgement, he pleaded guilty. I am sympathetic towards Leon's situation yes, it does that not mean that I think he is without fault. I think we should be aware that he was up against a bad no-win scenario, and choose the path which he thought at that time would result in the best outcome. Go re-read my post, where I mentioned he will have to live with the consequences of his actions, whether it be his inappropriate behavior or choice in pleading guilty. Now, if after knowing that you want to condemn Leon, go ahead. My point is that people should make informed choices and judgements and not act like sheep.

Btw, that quote from me was a factual statement. Most customers are probably guys. And I'm giving free advice to tone down the politics and activism.

In my line of work, I listen to my customers and cater to their needs, even IF it makes me personally unhappy, uncomfortable and goes against my values. As long as my employer does not commit a crime against me (and they have not), it is my choice to remain in that line of work. Do I wish things would be better? Absolutely. Do I make a huge fuss about it in the workplace? No I don't. If you want change, go vote, or join an NGO, but leave this toxic BS out from business.

That's politics and I don't want to unnecessarily bring in more crap. Suffice to say, I have seen multiple cases of people losing their livelihoods because of some extremist 1% ideologues, that would never have survived an actual legal challenge.

Men are definitely victims sometimes. But this is not the time or place to take wage that battle. For now let's keep focus right now on the victims of this story and how the community deals.


That one hurt