Good luck to UK contestent Olly Alexander in tonight's Eurovision Song Contest...

Seconded, he has a brilliant song.

Though I also love the symphonic metal of Ukraine's entry.

But the absolute knockout has to be Ireland's Bambie Thug. They are just amazing in every conceivable way and the ranting and frothing from the reactionaries is an absolute joy to behold.

Graham Norton's commentary is enough for me, pure gold some of it.

In the end a fantastic night for non-binary representation, and a richly deserved win for Switzerland.

And Nemo wearing Bambie Thug's crown of thorns while doing their winning performance was just beautiful to see.

Congratulations to Nemo from Switzerland, who won with 'The Code'.
A very popular song, leading after the jury votes, although it went right down to the final public vote announcement.
The newer voting method, of jury votes followed by public votes certainly makes things much more interesting!

Croatia, another very popular song by Baby Lasagna, 'Rim Tim Tagi Dim' came second, with Ukraine's 'Teresa & Maria' by Alyona Alyona & Jerry Heil in third place.

Commiserations to our Olly who came 18th (out of 25).
He only received 46 jury votes, and no public votes, which was a surprise as this was one of the best staged songs from the UK for a long time.

On the non-binary representation, Conchita Wurst was magnificent too

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/8b8ETg1EIZE/hq720.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEhCK4FEIIDSFryq4qpAxMIARUAAAAAGAElAADIQj0AgKJD&rs=AOn4CLCg4UZxtVuwPK60nCjv-PDW9m7BUg

Very deserving of being hosed down or receiving a pie or two

I thought Croatia and France were by far the best two songs.
Olly Alexander had a reasonably good entry, but was let down by the staging, clearly nobody wanted to see that kind of performance, hence the nil points from the public. All he needed to do was throw in some mud and we could have posted the video on here

Stopped watching this year's ago. It was always a bit crap, but there was the odd bit of quality, like Abba, but now it's just a freak show.

Fundamentally disagree. It's an awesome celebration of diversity and inclusion and having two non-binary acts do spectacularly well, and one of them win, was absolute magic, despite all the swirling politics. I Bambie Thug, and Nemo was also amazing. The Ukranian entry was great too. Last year was fixed, so Sweeden would have it on the 50th anniversary of ABBA, but in reality Norway should have won, thieir track was amazing!

Non binary? WTF?

People who feel they are neither male nor female.

One important thing I've learned over the last 20 years, is that who someone *is* is something they should be able to define for themselves, not have imposed externally. I mean none of us would be happy of someone was to come along and say "WAM isn't a real fetish, that's not sexy" and try and deny us our wammer identities. So with all aspects of someone's sense of self and identity. There's a lot more complexity and diversity in the world than the West's traditional Abrahamic religious rigid demarcation of everything into binary boxes allows for, both in terms of sexuality and gender, and a whole lot more too. Sadly, because Western Europeans were so amazingly successful at imposing their views on the whole world - the British Empire truly was the greatest empire the world has ever seen - that binary view has infected lots of other cultures, and is taking decades to eradicate in some places. It's tragic how many countries still persecute gay people based on laws imposed by western colonialists, often in countries that previously had a much more diverse local culture.

I may have left wing views on the economy, trade union rights, workers rights, public services etc, but on some social topics like this I have equally conservative and right wing views. I think this gender ideology is absolute, total, utter and complete bollocks.

It isn't possible to be neither male or female. If you've got a dick, you're male. End of. This whole thing is at odds with nature and it's been allowed to fester and gain way too much traction. It's shite!!!!!

Its all got out of hand. Minority people seeking attention constantly and the news outlets propelling it to the forefront constantly.
The backlash against all this 'look-at-me' stuff is already beginning. It won't end well.

Great... you can't decide what you are. Keep it to yourself, why do we all have to deal with your identity issues

TV is riddled with it and every single program, advert and poster has to have minorities splattered all over it. Straight folk are the minority now.

Poll in the USA? What percentage of American people are LBGTQ+... the poll came back as people thinking it is something like 20%. It's actually nearer 0.05%

https://nypost.com/2024/05/15/world-news/peru-classifies-trans-intersex-people-as-mentally-ill/

This post is going to go badly from here on in... as you must not ever challenge this madness.

I have NOTHING against these people or their choices. But they are YOUR choices, not mine.

The world is doomed

Strongly agree with the last post, it's an abomination. There are TWO genders, end fucking of!!!!!

Anything else is either mental illness or "look at me" attention seeking, narcissistic twats. This insanity MUST be stopped

Sex and gender are two different things. Once we stop conflating the two, we can stop being defensive over our definition of one.

Even if you don't understand this or disagree, there really is no upside to being abusive toward people you think are wrong. Respect costs you nothing.

1, Sex and gender are not seperate, this gender rubbish is an invented pile of shit.

2, I don't respect these strange people who have to flaunt their delusions, they should keep it to themselves and stop pushing it into real life. It's degenerate behaviour, like the last days of the Roman empire, and that didn't end well.

I don't go around pushing my WAM fetish into everyone's face, I keep it to myself, these individuals should do the same

While you're here at least, you'll have to show them respect. Please stop with the disparagement and demonization. That's venting, not conversation.

I honestly find it ridiculous that anyone would proudly consider themselves "fiscally left-wing but socially conservative". These two realms of politics are not independent of each other. The reason that fiscal conservatives are (usually) also social conservatives is because socially conservative values play an integral role in supporting the status quo, most notably the institution of capitalism. For instance, social conservatives talk a lot about "traditional family values". However, there's actually nothing traditional about these values. The nuclear family is a relatively recent product of the industrial revolution, designed to supply the capitalist system with a steady supply of workers. There are numerous other examples like this.
I also find it ridiculous, (though not entirely surprising) that someone with such a "deviant" sexual fetish would go around promoting socially conservative values. It's like the gay person who votes for an overtly homophobic political party and then acts surprised when he finds himself being persecuted. As someone with a WAM fetish myself, I would much rather live in a socially progressive society where I'm less likely to be judged on that, and people feel more free to experiment with their fantasies, rather than a socially conservative society where people are weighed down with shame and guilt over them.
And finally, if someone is LGBT, non-binary, or falls into any category you don't totally understand, they have the right to live however they want. If you've got nothing better to do... [Ending edited out (instead of whole post being removed) for ad hominem response -MM]

Yes, the people have absolutely the right to live how they want and identify as they want.
I don't care if they identify as a twin cock helicopter.

But... I don't go around telling everyone else they have to accept who/what I am, waving flags, changing laws, painting everything in a rainbow, and forcing other to accept their choices.

If I see a girl, she is a girl in my eyes. If I see a guy, I assume he is a guy. I can't mind read that you actually identify as a toothbrush, so don't be stupidly offended if I address you as something that has been the basic go-to identification of the human race.

The human race is doomed... sorry, we now seem to no be on an irreversible path of self destruction.
This can't end well

Anyway... back to the pies

They have the moral right to wave a flag of identity just like you or I can. That's not forcing your opinion, it's just being proud of who they are. That said, I think laws do need to exist to protect marginalized groups from bigots who see anyone trying to gain equal rights as a threat.

Like I said, this thread can't end well. It's everyone for their own opinion
Best stop here I think

For over 100 years, the only people represented in media were hetrosexual. Up till the 1960s, the only way you ever saw black women on TV was as maids or similar - to the point that when Oprah Winfrey was a child and saw Strar Trek, with Lieutenant Uhura as the bridge comms offiicer, for the first time, she dragged her entire family to watch saying "There's a black woman on TV and she ain't no maid!"

Representation matters, because it means people get to see / look up to / think about characters who are like them.

Growing up in the 70s almost every movie star was a white hetro guy. James Bond. Luke Skywalker. Columbo. All great characters played by great actors, but all pale, male, and hetro. There was the odd black guy, like Kojack, as that taboo had fallen with Star Trek but they were still rare. Women were playthings, not proper characters. In a fight their role was to scream and be rescued, not to help the hero or be heroes themselves.

I didn't realise it at the time but when Princess Leia shoots and kills a stormtrooper while Luke is trying to extend a bridge in the original Star Wars, that was actually revolutionary. And then there was Ellen Ripley in Alien. As a believer in equality I took those in my stride but looking back now I realise just how unusual they were.

But even then, there was no representation of anyone who wasn't hetrosexual, at all.

Straight people aren't a minority. It's just that other people are now also being represented, and getting to see their stories shown alongside ours. This is a good thing, this is progress.

Agree, stop this thread. It will only turn into a shouting match.

I see that the two transphobic bigots who started this debate suddenly want it to end. This is exactly what we want to see, bigots keeping their mouths closed and their views to themselves. A little pushback is all it takes.

I'm temporarily locking this thread while referring it to MM for final decision, however a few points:

1. No-one in the real world has ever identified as any kind of helicopter, that's something those opposed to a wider view of gender made up to disparage trans people.

2. The "opinion" that MM expressed, that while here in UMD, everyone must treat everyone else with respect, is not an opinion, it's the core value of the site rules as expressed in the ToS.

https://umd.net/termsofservice - right at the top: "Don't Ruin the Party Vibe!"

3. Which ever side of a debate anyone is on, name-calling and swearing at people doesn't usually help, and also breach the vibe check.

4. Only MM or the mod team can end a thread (by locking it). Making statements like "end of" or "stop this here" aren't helpful.

Thanks DM1. Thread unlocked now. Any further ad hominem attacks will be removed, and anyone who doesn't show respect to others on this site will just be gagged or removed. If you can't keep the vibe then you're violating the TOS and don't need to be here.

Now everybody have a great damn weekend

Well that certainly escalated far from the purpose of my original post!