Seems like the only acceptable discussions are XXX WAM or custom producer stuff. Mainstream WAM is hardly allowed. I understand content with underage people around but so often very loose reasons are given to remove any content.

I think a part of it is that umd has a few overlords that dictate how and what is allowed like payment processors and censorship from third parties which is not in Messmaster's control. For example if someone reports something on site it has to be looked into in a specific timeframe and I'm not sure any user wants to push on the boundaries of doing that without getting banned ip wise. But I'm relatively new still and don't think I'm that qualified to comment other than my own experiences with using umd

But I miss being able to brainstorm without being reminded of what or how I can type things without facing mods wrath. Sometimes my Brains on autopilot with umd

If you ever see something removed that you think shouldn't have been, you can appeal it to MM, either drop him a personal message or click "Report" on the deleted post, select "Needs Attention", put "I don't think this should have been removed because" and fill in the details of why you think it shoudn't have been removed. Mods do make mistakes, you can always appeal to MM for any decision taken.

It's certainly not true that only XXX or custom stuff can be discussed though. The main restriction is just that stuff specifically made for kids can't be discussed in detail. It's still fine to say "I first got into WAM watching TISWAS / Nickleodeon / Crackerjack as a kid", but not to go into detail about eposides or segments or precise celebrities who appeared. Even if it was only adults getting messy, if it was made for an under-18 audience, it's off-topic here. We don't want to be sending search traffic to sites aimed at kids. Plus of course anything with any actual kids in it is an absolute no-no.

Shows made for an adult audience (i.e. not shown during defined kids-time TV, and not made by a kids channel) are fine, so the various reality shows that have gunge segments like Big Brother or I'm A Celebrity, or active game shows like Fort Boyard, are all fine, and I'm surprised they don't get discussed more than they do. Back in the day The Crystal Maze had some awesome fully clothed wetlook scenes, I remember including some on a VHS cliptape (yeah, I'm that old ).

It's recently come to mod attention that one of the Latin American shows that regularly features pies is actually made for a teen (and under 18) audience, hence that's no longer allowed, but the other Latin shows are as far as I know OK.

I think the biggest change is the required user ID to post any suggestive photos, more than anything else. It really creates a bind for the average user: you could keep your anonymity by not posting your face in the past but now, you can't do that because you can't verify ages if you don't have a face. So that means you need to post your face marking you obviously of age or submit ID (and I think the rule is "submit" anyway just so all are safe) and that's a problem for those with professional and/or family reasons for needing to hide. I, for one, can't take the risk of my ID being leaked or hacked or anything and I know I'm not alone.

The general hassle of submitting an ID makes casual "I'll just post this on a whim" no longer a thing and the ID rules have pretty much eliminated all user/amateur content. It's made the site largely about paid content and sales than it ever used to be. I'm glad that content is being produced, but we're pretty much here to consume that rather than discuss and exchange fetish fun of our own.

I get the privacy concern, but TBH I trust MM rather more than I trust huge corporations. He stores the ID data on a machine that has no network connection, and even the best hacker in the world isn't going to be able to break into a machine that's not connected to the network.

Other than the pic on your ID, there's never been any need to show faces here (and still isn't), for starters a face pic doesn't prove anything, who's to say it's genuinely the face of the person posting? The only thing needed to allow explicit posting is to have uploaded ID.


TBH i think we have more enthusiastic amateurs now than we have for a while, which is good to see. I'm particularly thinking of the amazing scenes JD & Messy Andi have been posting.

One good side-effect of the new rules applying to tube sites, they've largely eradicated the casual piracy that used to plague things, both for amateurs and pro producers. I know piracy still happens in closed groups, but it's a lot less prevalent than it used to be when people (who presumably hated all models and wanted to bankrupt them) would rip entire websites to tubes.

I do get it's not as straightforward to post amateur content just for fun as it was back in the day, sadly the idiots who kept uploading abuse videos, and the tube sites that refused to do anything effective to put a stop to it, proved that too many people just can't be trusted to behave decently.

I voted for "Maybe Some".

The reason is that I feel like this forum has become more of just an advertising venue for WAM producers to advertise new videos in the past year or so. Obviously, that's not a problem in & of itself. Producers have always been highlighting their content on this forum since it started. But I remember back in 2019-2020 when I first started posting here, it felt like there were more forum posts and threads just about WAM in general, and discussing favorite WAM movies, mainstream content, etc. in between all the producers selling their videos.

This might just all be in my head but it does feel like the forum has kinda...slowed down I guess? Maybe the new guidelines on talking and referring to mainstream/non-WAM producer clips and movies have slowed things a little bit but I dunno.

I still love this forum, just feel like its losing steam so to speak.

I have had the same impression, and while the new moderation rules may have had a hand in it, TBH the most noticable slowdown to me seemed to be immediatley after the MostWam debacle at the end of October last year, which had several effects:
- They used to post multiple updates a week, many of which would get responses and discussion.
- Fans of theirs used to sometimes post speculative threads independently of their ad ones, adding more traffic.
- We lost good people as a result of some of the extreme ranting and unplesant messaging that followed.
- MM gagged or booted out some of those posting the more extreme views / messages.

Overall, I got the impression there was a significant drop in forum traffic, which is slowly recovering now as new members join and all of that fades into the past.

Weirdly, and with no inkling of what was actually coming, about this time last year I'd actually wondered what things would be like if MW retired from the business, I'd got a vague impression of a loss of enthusiasm over the summer and wondered if they were planning to quit.

As a producer, on the sales report page you get to see what other producers your own stuff shared a basket with - not in any detail, but just that people who bought my content also bought from X, Y, and Z other producers at the same time. It's called "Friendly Assists". And as you'd expect, the other producers who show up on my page are mostly others who do fully clothed WAM, and this time last year, MW was always at the top of that list for me. I did wonder, if they sold up or shut down, whether I'd lose a bunch of sales as a result. And then the train-wreck happened two months later.

In actual fact afterwards sales went up, not down, I imagine many other producers of clothed content saw the same effect. But there definitely was a sharp slowdown in the forums in the aftermath, and my gut impression is they are still slower than they were.

There have been slowdowns before though, things always recover in the end. There aren't really many other places to enthusiastically discuss WAM, on the big fet sites like fetlife we're a tiny minority, and if it wasn't for MMs personal dedication this place wouldn't exist. UMD successfully weathered the storm when social media first appeared and was wiping out forums left right and centre - anyone else remember when every second website had a phpBB forum attached? - so this too will pass.

I'll goddamn well fight all of you!

So, arbitrarily, content with exclusively adults is removed. With mainstream WAM, that accounts for most of it entirely, especially with the loose interpretation of this, as the "Esto Es Guerra" style south American shows are for some reason not fine. Never mind those same "kids shows", speaking of Guerreros Puerto Rico or EEG, they have gorgeous scantily clad women twerking and acting seductive -- but NO, because this show which is 100% adults and is almost entirely these adults running around on obstacle courses, but because someone thought it might appeal somehow in some way to a child -- REMOVED/DELETED/DO-NOT-DISCUSS.

Probably the same with Chega Mais, if they were still around, kind of glad these shows aren't as popular, because it would just mean more deleted threads.

I don't know the real reason for this, because at face value it's ridiculous to remove content with adults because someone suggests the show is not exclusively made for adults, but that limitation is pretty awful. I wonder if it was done to drive people towards producer content, because more and more it's obvious what this forum is about in 2023.

Does someone think if they starve out this forum of the majority of the dwindling mainstream content it will drive people to producers? No, it's just killing this forum, think again.

From a psychological standpoint, the mainstream stuff is what creates this community, it is what drives people to find producers. This forum should obviously be careful with anything with underaged participants but that is it. Trying to cull mainstream content thinking it's going to make more people buy from producers is a recipe for failure.

If you look up the Wikipedia articles on the various shows (Google Translate is handy for converting them from the original Portugese or Spanish), it reveals that Passa ou Repassa is a Brazillian version of the American Double Dare (which we also had in the UK) and which definitely is a kids (or at least teenager) show. The contestants can be any age fromn 16 up.

Likewise EEG is also a youth programme and may have under-18 people on screen.

Now to be honest until a couple of weeks ago I didn't know those shows were youth-based, one of the other mods flagged PoP and linked to the Wiki article for it. But no matter how adult they dress or sexily they act, 16 and 17 y/o do not belong on UMD.


That's described as a telenovella broadcast in a 7pm slot. Which means it's general entertainment and not a kids show. So if there's a WAM scene and someone posts or links to a clip of it, then as long as there are no kids in that actual scene, all well. ISTR we did have to nuke a post that linked to en entire episode of a South American show a while back, because the scene immediately after the WAM one had a ten year old kid front and centre. A clip of just the preceeding scene on its own would have been fine. Same reason whole episodes of Noel's House Party can't be linked here, only clips that are just the gunge sections.


Ok, consider what happens if a forum allows such posts. All of a sudden you have a nexus of people wathcing and discussing made-for-kids shows as effectively porn, posting links, organising to rig votes to ensure the sexiest woman gets gunged regardless of who the kids would have voted for. All of that activity is being traced by the security services and/or various private security people. We all know from experience that there are people wth absolutely no filters or concept of boundaries, so the presenters of those kids shows will start getting bombarded wth inappropriate requests to dress more sexily for the gunge. And one day the forum owner wakes up to find a nice friendly police officer at the door wanting to have a little chat, down at the station, on record, about this forum full of pervy guys sexually harassing kids TV show people that they run.


That has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's keeping a sefe boundary between an adult fetish community, and content that is made for, and/or featuring, people under 18.


My take on that is "leave the kids shows for the kids to enjoy". Yes, sure, a few of them will see someone get messy and realise they like it for more than just comedy reasons. And unlike those of us who grew up in the 80s and spent two decades convinced we were the only people on the planet into WAM, they'll go to Google, enter a search term, and find this place or one of dozens of producer websites.

Personally I don't really understand why anyone would still be into mainstream content once they've discovered that producer scenes exist. Way, way back, in the 90s, long before I ever went on-line, I wanted to hire models and shoot scenes, entirely because mainstream stuff was so badly filmed from an "enjoy the messiness" point of view. Mainstream directors aren't thinking about wam pleasures, they're thinking about comedy and entertaining a general audience. So they constantly cut from camera to camera, cut away to the host telling a joke, put the credits over the main WAM action shots, or do any of a dozen other things that make the scenes incredibly frustrating to watch.

I remember an episode of Bob's Your Uncle - this was the game show for newly-weds presented by the hugely popular presenter and comedian Bob Monkhouse, and which featured one round played in a swimming pool where the bride and groom, in their wedding attire, sat in leaky rowing boats and had to answer questions. If they got a question wrong, another memner of their wedding party, also dressed in their wedding finery, had to join them in the boat, making it sink faster. The loser would be the party who's boat completely sank first and tipped them all into the water. Now in this particular episode one party had just got a question wrong and the very good looking sister of the bride, in an absolutely gorgeous very smart skirt suit, had to get into the boat, which was already half-full of water, and sit down in it. We got to see her step in. And then just as she was about to lower her beautiful skirted bottom into the water, the director cut away to a full-screen shot of Bob's face, telling a joke to camera. By the time they cut back to the game, she was sitting fully down in the boat and what would have been a glorious money-shot of her skirt making contact with, and sinking into, the water, was lost forever.

But regardless of that, if people wanted to post those scenes here, as long as no kids in the wedding parties (from memory it was only ever adults in the UK version - insurance would probably have banned kids, imagine the hell that would break out if someone's kid drowned on set), then that would be perfectly fine.

The rules aren't arbitrary. Nothing with kids, nothing made for a specifically kids audience. General family audience is fine, soap operas, reality shows, game shows, no problem. There's no desire to suppress mainstream content. Just, as MM puts it in the ToS, "Keep the kids out."

I am happy with the tos, the content in the forum, and the content that gets removed from this forum.

I am happy with the actions taken to protect children. The internet was becoming a terrible place for children where youtube videos for children shows had sexual comments or predatory challenge comments. This was in February 2019: https://www.theverge.com/tech/2019/2/22/18236847/youtube-kids-inappropriate-comments-demonetization-child-exploitation-ad-policy-updates and This was in February 2019: https://umd.net/forums/new-tos . The changes made to youtube and this site has helped protect children.

Let me explain why breaking the links to children shows helps protect children. A child might copy the name or url of their show and google search it to find more. The 1st image I attached shows what happens when you do that with a phrase from https://umd.net/groups/youtube-channels-update . This is in an incognito tab with the default safe search options. The 2nd screenshot shows when I search for the url of a show. That is what children may click on. Breaking the links helps protect children.

Imagine the alternative: there are no tos, there are no mods, there are links to questionable or illegal content, people are posting photos of amateur content that is questionable or illegal, there are hardly any producers making new videos, and there are just a bunch of links to old and low quality pirated videos from a decade ago. This site would shut down after making no profit to run it and being sued for a dozen different reasons.

I buy scenes here. I don't need to search youtube, tiktok, or any other "tube" site for it. I don't find "discoveries" or "mainstream" appealing at all since producers can make content that is so much better.

The last thing I want to know is that children are discovering this site because forum posts mentions their shows so it shows up in searches, or people from this site make bad comments on their shows. KTKO

The mainstream stuff is not anything new nor recent because of the credit card companies. Scenes with kids have been frowned on for a long time. The main debate used to be if kids happen to be in the background should it be allowed. Now the intended audience is the debate. With the way things evolve, all the credit card companies did was speed up the process. Watching the sites come and go the UMD has to protect itself the best way that is seen fit. Not everyone agrees with all the protections that were put in place. But we accept them because we want to have this place to chat more than we want to try and find another place or create another place. Yes there have been a lot of people that left, a lot of them because of disagreements with the way things have been done. Some people have just chose to lurk and not comment anymore for reasons of their own. If you think the forums suck, maybe it would be a better idea to try to promote stimulating conversations to bring the lurkers back out.

Loose reasons for things being removed simply comes down to the fact that no two people look at things the same way. I don't know that I would go down any conspiracy holes with this. It is just down to people being different.

I'm mixed on this.

On one hand, I remember what the UMD WAS and it was a bastion of guys and gals like me chatting up their favorite scenes, hanging in the chatroom (Which is virtually empty 75% of the time these days save maybe Mike and a handful of regulars) and coming up with wild ideas. Sure there was some prods on here but if anything, they merely complimented what we had here.

On the other, I see new producers, faces and kinda this renaissance period we are presently in where a whole new direction of wam can be produced, shared and discussed. I dig the options and what not but it does lack that chutzpah it had in the day.

The policy changes of mainstream scenes, I am mixed on and it's a hot take no matter how you probably slice it so proceed with caution.

On one side, I get that we need to protect this small haven and that involves creating policy that will reduce the likelihood of a mishap with enforcement agencies looking for a fight and it has already started. Just recently Arkansas, Virginia, Mississippi and Utah all passed legislation of some form restricting access to pornographic sites. Fact is ever since fuck ups like Pornhub failed to enforce compliance on it's creators causing this massive knee-jerk reaction from payment processors because one, ONE brand was caught in illicit activities. That is all it took. ONE and we are ALL dealing with this shit across the board. Even Producers/creators are not spared. Producers like myself have to run their clips by compliance at C4S regularly and if one lil thing doesn't look right (and the list is LONG) they spit it back out and we have to redo it all over again. It is as I have been saying: If we as a community fail to responsibly self govern, there will always be someone happy to do it for us, and trust me when I tell you that we DO NOT want that.

On the other hand, I get it. It's a raw deal. People like myself, Jaybee, GLAM and other messy wrestling prods/fans don't suffer as much because most messy wrestling was geared towards mature audiences anyways. Save maybe Big Top Pee Wee, a scene of that nature for a PG audience is rare. Have said all that, the fact that a good chunk of material that gunge/slime/pie/ect fans can discuss is neutralized out of the gate is understandably frustrating. Some may argue that it is infuriating and I would absolutely agree with you! In a perfect world where we can trust people to be responsible fetishists, do the right thing and not have the worry about governing bodies watching our every damned move, things would be different. Sadly, we live in a very different age with even more regulation and laws surrounding even the most simple enjoyments in life. Bottom line: It SUCKS! The rules and policies in place at UMD, I would LIKE to think are to prevent it from getting worse but MAYBE this thread might be a sign that this policy needs a revisit. I dunno. I am not MM and I am not his attorney. I don't know what options are at his disposal for merchant services. I am not looking at what policy terms and conditions he is under with his payment processors presently and it is certainly not going to be my head on a pike if he screws up.

Like I said, It just sucks.

In the end, I wouldn't mind seeing this forum regain SOME semblance of what we had here, albeit with a little bit more wisdom, more interaction and more engagement. I would encourage those who want to post, to post. Share your ideas! Share your stories! Jump into the hangout area and say "HI". Mike is a cool dude and he doesn't bite LOL (I promise I will make it a point to be there a bit more! In the meantime, MM you could make a mobile app for the hangout area and that would certainly help )

WAM is bigger than just sharing mainstream content. It's also the exchange of experience and ideas. Yeah it's fun and all but how I came into production was I got tired of talking about it and I wanted to create something NEW to talk about. Now I swap war stories with other producers and models. We laugh over stupid stuff that occurs during shoots, gaffs we make, share ideas, pointers and bonds are forged. It has only strengthened my affinity for the mainstream scenes that I remember because now I know fully what it took to put those scenes together (and it ain't easy and I will fight anyone who says otherwise).

So yeah, I'm split 50/50 on this one. I see areas of improvement for sure but I understand what causes certain abrupt changes in policy, overreaching or not.

Just want to reiterate, but even if DungeonMasterOne is trying to say I was somehow in favor of 16-17 year olds, obviously that is completely wrong and my direct statements contradict it.

It looks like he's weasel-wording around, bringing up a Wiki page that says Domingo Legal is a teen show, then using that to make this bold, "The UMD will never host 16 year olds! Never!" as if anyone here was promoting it at all, directly replying to me so maybe trying to make someone think I was in favor of it.

The only version of Passa Repassa anyone here is interested in is the 100% adult version that's been the norm for the past many years, which has 100% adult low-tier Brazilian celebrities.

Anyone here interested in EEG in only interested for the beautiful 20-40 year old South American women (or men) getting messy. Not some brief glimpse into the audience where there might be someone underaged, give me a break. If someone links a full episode and there is that shot -- remove it. If someone uploads an edited clip and it's just adults, no reason at all to remove it.

All this nonsense about wiki page definitions, what time it airs or who might be watching it is idiotic.

If it's all adults, it should be fine. It not, then No - but none of this subjective interpretations that just so happen to ensure whatever rare mainstream WAM is out there that about 90% of it is now off limits.

I think one important aspect we are missing is the cultural gap of American programming and Brazilian/Latin American programming. Brazil doesn't have the tendency to stigmatize a woman's body or sex as we Americans do so what we perceive as "mature" viewing only could easily be seen during daytime hours of Brazilian TV so to look at time slots is redundant. It's also not outside the norm to see underage audience members on a more mature game show there much like it wasn't uncommon to see a teen in the crowd of an episode of RAW is War during the Attitude Era of WWE but also to keep in mind is WWE in that time told you they were for mature audiences only.

My suggestion might not be the best solution but its an idea. What if these scenes in question where IE: a brief background shot shows an underage audience member was edited out clever using masking or patch replace in a video editor? It's work on our part but it could be a solution or start to finding some middle ground here.

Are we about to kiss?

Your suggestion is copyright infringement.

The best solution would be to have a completely separate forum. When people ask where are all of the "mainstream" links, a link to that forum can be provided. That forum can have its own tos and mods which allows this content. People already link out to other forums like https://www.quicksandfans.com/ . There are templates to setup a forum. You could probably even start a subreddit for it. I wasn't even going to suggest this because I'm not interested, but that is your best middle ground option.

That's partly what I thought but wasn't too sure how mainstream clips are classified as there are people who still currently sell clips of these scenes who I know for a fact don't own the licensing to those scenes. Also no one is profiting off said shared clips. They are simply being edited for adult consumption so not sure where that falls. I honestly never looked beyond simple search methods and sharing my findings with others.

Your suggestion certainly works as an alternative though as far as I can see! Good on ya!

This.

I think this forum is still pretty cool. I'm mainly here to browse and purchase but there have been many interesting threads that have been a joy to read and interact with.

I would not call it copyright infringement. I think it falls under the fair use guidelines. But as long as you are linking a video from the Tube of You it is fair game because the folks at the Tubes of You are responsible for monitoring and enforcing copyright standards. Nothing posted here from the Tube of You violates any copyright.

A sub-reddit is a good idea! There are a lot of things that could be resolved that way. But it also opens up some of the protections that are in place here like the Google search stuff. If anything, a sub-reddit that is just a link repository would avoid all the Google stuff where the links and discussion stay here.

I don't think it qualifies as fair use. The edited and reuploaded "mainstream" video would likely be caught automatically by youtube and get taken down. It would be against the tos of this site to upload and host copyright protected material. I don't see how this is any different from the type of piracy that edits a producer's video to remove their watermark and upload it to a different "tube" site.

https://www.youtube.com/howyoutubeworks/policies/copyright/
https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-fairuse.html

Reddit seems perfect for the people here who are unhappy that their links are removed. It should be easy for you folks to create a community subreddit. You can all be mods and make up your own rules. You can post whatever links that you want there. Within a few weeks, I'm sure you could get a few hundred links posted of your favorite "mainstream" shows there.

It depends on the copyright holder. For instance, on YouTube, you can share select music and clips of movies or tv shows provided it is not the entire feature/episode (I forget what the cap is for length) and the copyright holder OKs it with YouTube. Otherwise yes, it will get booted.

Lots of interesting points, but here's the bottom line: This site is MessMaster's private property, and as such he has the absolute right to set the rules for it. Here's the relevant section direct from the Terms of Service:
_______________________________________________

Keep the Kids Out! No one under 18 can be present anywhere in the content in absolutely any context, even the background. We do not allow uploads, discussion, or links about any site, picture, screenshot, video, movie, or show whose intended audience is children, even if no children are actually present in the content. We allow reasonable discussion of fetishes from the perspective of being rooted in childhood development, but we cannot allow for the actual events to be described salaciously. Newly uploaded content depicting the actual logos or titles from children's shows will not be allowed. Illustrations, cartoons, and animations are allowed, including those created by artificial intelligence, but the characters cannot be depicted as, or appear to be, children.
_______________________________________________

No kids, period. Not in the foreground, not in the background, not in the studio audience, and not if the intended TV audience is kids either.

As with anything else on the site, if anyone thinks the rules should be changed, drop MM a message, he's always willing to discuss things and is very approachable, he's not some distant God-Emperor of WAM (though there's a cool theme for a spectaculat new Las Vegas casino complex! )

But at the moment and for the last few years, those are the rules, which we mods work to apply.

Also, in response to some of the rest of the discussion, the no-kids thing isn't, as far as I know, just down to the card company rules, but also to protect the entire community from appearing to the outside world as a haven for peadophiles. Because if we allowed unfettered discussion of mainstream kids-show content, that is how the press and the authorities would look at it.

**edit**

I'd done a detailed point-by-point response to SloppyT's comments but reading it back realised it probably came over a bit too aggressively, so will just say:

At no point was I suggesting you wanted under-age content to be allowed, I get you're only interested in the adults. All I was trying to do was explain the rules, and the reasons for them.

As to time slots, wikipedia, etc - as mods we have to try an apply MM's rules in a fair and even-handed way. Looking up what info there is on a show, and seeing when it was broadcast - 8am-noon on Saturdays and 4pm-6pm weekdays are, in most countries, "kids TV time" - are reasonable ways to work out, if we're not familiar with a given show, whether it was made for kids, or made for a general audience.

I get that its upsetting when stuff you like, that used to be allowed, isn't any more. But times change and as Nostalgic Erotica Prod said elsewhere in the thread, if we don't regulate ourselves, other people will do it for us, other people with way less sympathy for WAM than we have.

Back when I first went on-line in the mid-90s, the Internet really was the wild, wild west. There were no rules, no restrictions, the vast majority of the population, including police and governments, had no idea what on-line even was. But that's ancient history now. The world, including the Internet, and the regulatory environment, has changed beyond all possible recognition since those days. We have to change with it.

I don't create videos so I don't know about this. Sounds like you want someone to break up the "mainstream" shows into short clips of your favorite parts and reupload them. I don't even agree with this. Imagine having the best parts of a producer's video broken down and uploaded to something like redgifs.


This is a perfect summary of the rule. I hope that people can understand why the rule exists. Maybe people do not understand its purpose. I believe it is meant to protect children, protect the site against lawsuits, and protect this sites reputation from a bad press. Maybe a FAQ could be added to explain the purpose of the rule to people whose link is removed.

I am even conflicted about my idea to use reddit. I can argue that it would be against the rules to link out to a website which links out to content that is breaking the KTKO (or even piracy) rules. It is trying to circumvent the rules.

Nobody. NONE. Not a single person in this thread is suggesting any video with any under 18 in any capacity be allowed. NOBODY.

None in the foreground or background or studio audience. I said as much already.

The crux of this issue is: When there are NO under-18s, NONE AT ALL, in the video in any capacity... buuuut the show or youtube clip is somehow determined to be geared at younger audiences -- why are those videos removed and deleted?

Case in point: A lot of the Ratata or Multido type videos have a lot of mess in them. They do not have children in them at all. All the actors involved are of adult age. Yet, the videos are childish in nature and clearly targeting a young adult audience. Those are also off limits and by doing so, a lot of good content is not allowed.

Meanwhile, producers are freely able to promote "SEXY PROM QUEEN TAKES DILDO" or videos with adults dressed as school girls. Why? Why is that allowed but mainstream videos are savagely curtailed?

That is the thing. The stance on the forums is that the sites that are being linked have the responsibility to police their content. There is no rule breaking going on. The piracy aspect as it relates to non-WAM produced content is not an issue here. Now, content that is piracy of WAM producers is only allowed in the context of letting a producer know that their work is on those sites so that they can file a copyright claim. There is no way to prove that the person that uploaded the content being shared does not own the copyright unless you are the copyright holder. Yes, I have had this argument about copyrighted material being shared and the response I have gotten has been you can't prove it and the sites hosting the material are responsible for any copyright issues. There is no rule about sharing links to mainstream WAM content that is copyrighted. So as long as there were not links shared to reddit threads that contained copyrighted material from WAM producers it is a free and clear thing. Sure there are ethical issues that could be discussed concerning it. But ethical things are not the rules.

I don't understand. It is not clear to me. I just watched these channels to try and understand your viewpoint. These childish Ratata and Multido videos look like they target a child audience to me. They feature messy aspects that seem intended to entertain children and make them laugh or surprised. What makes it clear to you that the target audience is young adults?

The argument I can see for why these channels are not targeted for kids is that they are not flagged "Made for Kids". There are scandals where channels do this because they would loose ad monetization if they marked their channel correctly. I watched these channels without an ad blocker and I got an ad. They use every loophole they can to do this so that they can get ad money from children watching shows. While watching these shows in incognito, I got related recommendations for other channels for childish content including ones that were marked "Made for Kids".

I agree that it is not fair to you since it can be hard for the mods to determine the target audience when deciding to delete a post. I can understand why you would disagree with some of the decisions.

Have you considered the subreddit option? It seems perfect for you. You can message here and to all of the users that agree with you that you created it. Other users can contribute their links. You can delete links there which you do not like. It is free for everyone. It would contain all of the "mainstream" wam or Ratata and Multido shows that you desire, and it would help you discover more. I would hope that if the subreddit is created and is intended to be sexual with sexual comments, that it is marked nsfw to keep the kids out of it.

Also, by no means am I intending to speak on behalf of this site. I am not directing people to leave. I just disagree. I don't think it "sucks". I am trying to give options to help. I can understand why people don't like the rules and having their links removed. I don't have any hope for you folks in convincing that the rules should be changed based on any argument made here. I have a lot of hope for you that a subreddit will give you exactly want you want.

Because, as I quoted from the ToS above, those are the rules MM has set:

"We do not allow uploads, discussion, or links about any site, picture, screenshot, video, movie, or show whose intended audience is children, even if no children are actually present in the content."

Now if you think the rules are too strict, by all means message MM and ask about them, he's not some remote inquisitor-general waiting to burn people at the stake, he's a friendly and approachable guy. But consider he's been running this place for 25 years and has a wealth of knowledge and experience that none of us do, and almost certainly know a lot more about the ins and outs of whether to allow different types of content or not.


Producers are required to hold detailed documentation on all their models and crew, to be able to prove that everyone is over 18. For example, no-one gets to work for us here at the Hall without providing their passport or driving license for us to take a record copy of, no exceptions. So UMD can safely assume that everyone in a producer video is over-18 and has signed a model release and provided ID. In addition MM holds ID documents for all producers - he knows who we are, we know who our people are.

You don't get any of that assurance with mainstream content, you have to guess what age people are, or take it on trust that none of the people featured are under-age. While a TV studio will have ensured they got model releases for everyone in a game-show, if they're not shooting fetish material they have no need to check ages or ensure over-18. TBH the "allowed if not a kids show" is still a compromise / risk, as a 17 y/o could perfectly legally take part in a mainstream show. But for the time being that risk is allowed.

It's as I said, I don't have an issue revisiting this subject. I get some of the frustration. Hell, I don't even have a problem discussing some sort of consensus where whatever happens off site, is not of the UMD's jurisdiction or concern. The only issue I see is any association here on the UMD that I see being problematic.

The issue is, what some people who are basically getting heated at the leadership of this site fail to understand if shit goes sideways, I doubt highly any member of this forum is stepping up to pay for MM's legal fees if the wrong attention comes onto him and this site.

At the end of the day, it all falls on his head because it's his name on the domain reg and no one else's. If he feels that this is the only way to not just protect the community but his own livelihood, it's within his right.

Now, I'm not saying don't try and ask. I am not saying be silent. I'm not saying you need to agree with it. Hell, I am not even saying that you need to like it, but whatever ultimate decision comes out of the other side of this thing, we gotta both respect and accept it because it isn't any of us who have the face the consequences if he is wrong.

Actually, in this, UMD is the most lax! Clips4Sale, you are required to create a model profile along with uploading all signed release paperwork, Valid ID and be verified yourself to open up shop. In every clip, you need to attach the model profile for each one that appears in the clip. Caught the leg of the other camera operator in the frame of your shot? Guess what you are doing: Creating a model profile for them as well or you are scrapping that bit of footage, and yes, clips have been rejected because of this. In fact, just a day ago, my clip was rejected because our video bumper features brief shots of all the women we have worked with to date and they demand now we attach the appropriate model profile for every model who appears in our intro. AN INTRO! Don't get me started on the precarious balance you need to have when writing your descriptions.

Trust me when I say that it can get a whole lot worse than what we have here.