Recently I came across on Twitter a photographer (non WAM) who was attempting to get crowd funding for a glamour photo shoot with three models. The content from which he intended to then sell for profit. In return those who donated got the content for free and a few other perks as well. I thought "cheeky git" as I fund my shoots out of my own pocket, fortunately most videos break even some even make a profit but ultimately it is me who takes the risk. I was sceptical if anyone would donate as this deal was not like ordering a custom where the buyer can get the content tailored to their tastes. However he was successful and managed to reach his target and the shoot took place. This has got me thinking is he a cheeky git, or a plucky genuis getting others to fund his business project? Or a bit of both?

So my question is would this concept work for WAM shoots? As any producer will tell you they are not cheap to do with costs of models, travel, studio, equipment, mess and cleaning supplies, food (for eating), electricity and heating. If anyone was willing to contribute to these costs to help make a shoot happen I'd be mad to turn them down! I'll be clear this is not an offer to start doing custom videos. However perks of donating could include copies of the videos and photosets when released, having the models record a short personalised message for you, entry into some kind of draw to win a prize. I'm not sure how attractive a deal this would be for people though so please vote in the poll below and let me know. Also if you vote yes, either post below as to what sort of perks you'd be interested in having or if your shy drop me a message.

I reckon it'd work. A little off, some behind-the-scenes (no editing, save on time), depending on how much the donation is, add a couple more things like your suggestions.

I'd worry though that 'glamour' has pretty general expectations, whereas there's a large-ish minority here that has some fairly specific requests/requirements. So 4 out of 5 would be happy, but that 1 might be a loud grumpy beggar moaning about the lack of close ups of individual beans being squashed between the third and fourth toes on the left foot

Definitely need to set out what the funded video would consist of.

I have particular tastes and buy wam videos based on each video I see samples of. Aside from that, I would consider having a custom done, but I wouldn't be interested in co-funding a video with other people, on the chance that it would appeal to me once produced. So my answer would have to be no.

I am very surprised that this hasn't been done by now. Conceptually it's a no-brainer. We might collectively be able to afford a model who would ordinarily be out of our league - say a Lorna Morgan type.

Main issue would be finding a vehicle to do this with as typical crowdfunding sites wouldn't touch it. Unless you had a coded campaign for something which was actually a wam shoot!

I've helped sponsor or co-fund a couple of scenes with a producer from whom I regularly commission customs. The producer was working with a model and client on their own scene, but knew that it was in the wheelhouse of what I normally requested in my scenes, so this person contacted me about helping out. I put in an amount of money somewhere in between the cost of purchasing a clip in the store and commissioning my own custom. In one scene, it added substantially more mess and the other went toward adding a second girl to the scene. In both cases, I got an early copy of the scene (one of which was shot a couple of months ago and is still unreleased) and was able to make a couple of minor requests that didn't impact the original client's overall wishes for their scene; i.e. a close-up camera angle.

I realize that this scenario is probably a little more personalized than a straight crowdfunding endeavor, but I think that due to how specific individuals' tastes can be, people would be willing to pony up for a scene featuring a producer and/or model that they really like. Perhaps you could list the perks in stages. For example, $10 would get you an early released copy of the scene, $25 could get you some bonus behind-the-scenes footage or photos, and just scale it up from there. Hell, the Broken Lizard guys crowdfunded the entire sequel to Super Troopers with perks ranging from a ticket for $10 to having the cast be groomsmen in your wedding for $25k. It's up to you what you want to offer and how to best manage people's expectations. Good luck!

Levels of perks based on donation amounts would be a good idea.

"Behind the scenes" videos may be trickier than you imagine as most of the crew (myself included) aren't prepared to be in front of camera. Could possibly work something out but I'm not sure how interesting stuff like cleaning up and stopping the cats from jumping into buckets of gunge would be!

As for folks expectations then I have a pretty large body of work for people to look at so people should be able to see what sort of thing we'd be doing. I imagine it would only be people who like what I do already who would donate if I decide to do it. As I said doing customs isn't an option but if people donated and made requests within the scope of what we do anyway I think that could work. For instance requests for a game, making sure a girl is gunged with a particular colour of gunge or choosing a model to get pied.

It's obviously a much safer business model to start with. You can look at the total pledges and know if you have enough to shoot xyz, rather than speculatively making something and having to hope that you sell it. Also a good gauge of what the market wants. But also, somebody might be willing to pledge a small amount for a film that they might be 50/50 on whether they would actually buy. If they eventually don't then $3-$5 isn't so much they'd miss it, but a few folks doing that alongside bigger pledges might be enough to help you meet budget.

Thought about this idea myself if I'm honest if people were to donate to a shoot for a model for me then depending on the donation fee they would get either one/two or if donated enough they would get all the clips I shoot problem being your then loosing customers

I have done things along those lines from part sponsoring scenes in return for media to part sponsoring entire shoots and being involved on the day. For your shoots, a sponsor could perhaps influence the girls, games, outfits and mess. Heck, you can even save yourself some work and get a sponsor to compile any quizzes! Depending on the number of sponsors there'd be the potential for a last scene vote to determine who gets the last gunging of the shoot. Behind the scenes stuff sounds great but the reality is probably more Bob wondering if the batteries and memory cards will last, and wondering if the model in the shower will come back! Rather than the giggles of scantily clad ladies discussing the finer points of gunge! "Quick questions with..." bonus scenes might work with experienced models shooting in the down time between games.

That would somewhat defeat the point of doing it in the first place though. I would still need the cash myself upfront if the money was locked up and unable to be touched until the videos could be delivered.


You're right the main crowd funding sites state no pornography. I'm not quite sure how the photographer I mentioned managed to get away with using Go Fund Me.


Not really as you'd just be getting the cash upfront as opposed to hoping they buy later.


Getting a sponsor to write questions for me sounds like a plan! I'd be a bit wary about votes for girls as the number of late cancellations and no shows I've had over the years I'd be worried about letting people down. You're spot on with the behind the scenes video, I think that would be more mayhem than messymayhem, we did once have some of the ceiling come down on us while we were eating lunch once!

As others have said. A TRUSTED producer, otherwise no way. I helped two "crowdfunders" one never followed through, the other said they made the donation to charity but didn't do the shoot. It wasnt massive money so I'm not fussed.

Contributing to a particular model that you wouldn't normally be able to afford, that would be cool.

I'm not very good at scenarios so I like to sponsor the mess, I've sponsored the glop bath at messygirl more than once and I received all the footage that day. That worked well for me.

G

It's not that one is better than the other, just different.

Personally, I think classic crowdfunding, like Kickstarter, is better for a 1 - off event. Maybe a special guest, or something. This is because the potential customer pool is really small, so in essence, you're selling the product before you have it made.

There are other types of crowdsourcing options, such as Patreon, which appear to be more long-lasting. If you have a release schedule you can keep, this may be a better option, since it's kinda like running a store/having a membership site, and their are teired membership levels.

Me personally, it's the model that's the wildcard. They could raise their right hand, solemnly swear on a stack of bibles on their mother's grave that they will be there at the given time, only to fall of the face of the planet when the time comes. If I didn't have to deal with that, I could have a much more consistent production schedule. That's one reason I don't advertise for anything that hasn't already happened.

So, to answer the question asked, if given the option to participate in a crowdsourcing campaign, I would decline. Despite the producer's best intentions, there's no guarantee that the model would actually show.

For me it would depends on who was offering, how cheap the pledges could be to get a worthwhile reward and also content, although I'm not as particular as some people on here can be, there are certain 'deal breakers' that if they are not there. For example so degree of nudity. But, I would certain be open to the idea.

If it were a good idea, it would have to find another home besides the UMD. Crowdfunding is explicitly banned in the rules:


"Crowdfunding and Fundraisers
We do not allow the advertisement of any crowdfunding campaigns, or requests to receive money from multiple people, if there is a promise of a product or service for it, because we cannot guarantee delivery of that product or service. Plain fundraisers, where there is no expectation of anything in return, are acceptable. We do not allow raffles, either in isolation, or in combination with paid product, because we cannot vouch for or guarantee the winnings after the customer has paid for the chance to win."

I mean yeah, if it's that clear cut, then he's a fucking genius. However, crowdfunding is rarely a clean business proposition. There have been a LOT kickstarters and gofundme projects that have had one of the two disastrous results.

1. The goal is never reached. In this case the originator has to give all the money back. This is time, energy, and money consuming especially if you see you're near the goal and start getting your stuff together for the project.

2. The goal is massively overexceeded. This one has happened a lot in crowdsourced video games. "No Man's Sky" particularly comes to mind. Needless to say, what people spent their money one was not what they got. Either they WERE entitled to more (things promised that didn't happen), or at least thought they were (things hoped for but didn't work out to logistics), and the producer got the shit bashed out him all over the internets.

This doesn't even account for flakes, you know flakes. Models that don't show, customers that set up customs or sessions and don't show, or pay, etc.

Yeah...my take is F that, it really doesn't seem worth the trouble having to cater and all that nonsense. There are a LOT of entitled little shit lords now a days...

This is not at all an unusual concept in music. The production of a CD album for instance can easily cost tens of thousands of pounds. Many artists use this method to fund such an expense. There is often a choice of level of contribution, along the lines of (say) £5 for a digital download, £10 for a physical hard copy, More for a hand written thank you note along with the CD etc., right up to a meeting with the artist concerned.

Quite how this would work with a WAM product I do not know. But as has been said earlier in this thread, it's success would depend on how trustworthy the prime mover seemed to be. If it was a well known producer with a large following then OK. A new producer to the market might find it more difficult to raise the necessary funding and of course they are the ones who need it most.

While it sucks for the originator, they shouldn't have to do any manual refunds. In my experience, Kickstarter will only charge money to supporters (and pass it on to the originator) if the campaign is successful.

Indiegogo also has a "flexible funding" option, where all pledges get paid to the originator, whether they reach the target or not.

I actually do crowdfund outside the UMD. It's about $20-$40 for me to produce a scene, supplies included. But as it was said, the practice is forbidden here. While messmaster is Banning it to protect people from scammers, it is a hinderence for us who offer it.

All of the pics on my profile page were crowdfunded. It only took about 10 people offering $5 per scene. I will even offer free downloads to anyone interested.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cytx2z23db7metm/20170316_000635.mp4?dl=0

I agree with Emi.

Firstly well done Bob!

Thinking outside of the box, bringing in fresh ideas, and being brave enough to have a go is what keeps things exciting, inspires others and makes this such a great community.

I'll be really interested to see how this goes...
I've always been in the crowd funding wam shoots won't work group, but I'd love to be proved wrong.

Best of luck xx

I thought crowdfunding for wam shoots was specifically banned here after the "vanishing model" scams of a few years ago? Other than that I imagine it could work as long as the final result matched what was promised, but the fine detail of what was going to be done (and what the result was going to look like), all the way down to what camera angle(s) would be used and what each model would wear (or be nude) were specified in advance. A lot of people do have very specific tastes - many pie fans want only headshot close ups, for example. So a lot thought and planning would need to go into the initial offer.

It's really all about reciprocal trust (like all successful business is, ultimately).

With crowd funding the donor is not taking the risk instead of the producer - but sharing the risk with the producer in the way they haven't been used to doing.

But the producer's risk is still the greater one in the end - and this is the bond that seals the deal and ensures it gets done and that everyone is happy - or if it all goes wrong - refunded.

If we agree that this is a model only suitable for trusted producers, then the reciprocity is in the risk to their reputation too. This is not to be underestimated. You go wrong as a producer in a small world like this one - you're finished! You can't run very far with a few hundred dollars you've already spent!

So, I think it can work - if the commitment is there - and where the idea is pitched in such a way that the outcome will be both appealing, coveted and yet reassuringly reliable and unsurprising.

It's also worth mentioning that MadLoversCosplay have been producing using the Patreon model for nearly two years now and posting appeals on this forum.

Fundraising is just part of the general reality these days.

I would want to be in it and get wet and messy

You'd be a hero right up until someone isn't happy with the end product.

It's great in theory but there's so many variables and everyone has their own preferences.

There is potential and it must be do-able. Potentially, if the people contributing up front are 'known' customers contributing to a producer who has some history with them and so has some idea of what they do and don't like then that could reduce the risk.

You could take suggestions from contributor to avoid offering perks because as soon as you're offering a specific perk, people have their own expectations and that can get complicated when one person is wanting something different to the next person.

Preordering is a safer way of 'selling' it than crowdfunding. The big question is, who's willing to be the middle man? They'll get their slice of the revenue in exchange for having to deal with any customers who didn't receive what they hoped for.

There's many different scenarios; is it a producer who's working on a shoestring budget with next to no funds in the kitty, is it a producer who's wanting to try someone very different to their usual work and so wants to mitigate the risks, is it a producer who's wanting to try something far bigger than they've ever done before, is it a producer who's wanting to hire a more expensive model but wants to mitigate the risk, etc etc etc etc.

It must be possible since crowdfunding in general does work, it would be interesting to know the statistics for how many crowdfunding projects fall flat on their face, how many deliver the product and have happy customers, how many deliver a product that falls short of what was promised / promoted, how many are delayed and by how much, etc etc etc

Notice the number of etceteras in this post... there are so many variables and each variable is a potential pit fall.

So yeah, who would want to be the middle man?

That's why I think it can only be done by a producer with a track record. It's no way to make your first video.

Expectations need to be carefully managed and the deal very carefully and clearly worded.

Surprise people only by doing exactly what they expect you to do but with a few bells and whistles (that's why they're a fan). Any surprises should be fully expected [sic]

A wam video is like a good joke. The perfect tension between predictability, expectation and surprise.

HI there. I would love to fund a shoot As long as the model was a female. I would have to pick the mess, pick the outfit and how they got messy

And therein lies the problem as crowd funding can be misinterpreted as being a cheaper way of buying a custom.

Nobody would want to be the middleman in those transactions, Would they?