So I've noticed something for a while now and I'm curious if I am in the minority here.

When there is a scene with more than 2 girls in a pie fight scene, often there are soooo many wasted pies and pie hits. Too much commotion and craziness and a lot of pies end up dropped, hit on the side of the head, or even worse, the shoulder.

Do customers out of control shoots? Like part of the allure is the wild pie fight aspect? Me personally I am looking for a bit more organization and blocking for pie fights. It seems some scenes there isnt any direction given to the models.

A good example of a proper scene would be MG's Great Race Pie FIght. You can tell (at least the first half) the girls are instructed to almost take turns hitting each other square in the face, and it honestly turned out amazing.

Anyways just wanted to see if anyone else had any opinions on this or if any producers wanted to weigh in.

I wouldn't say you're in the minority. I know I'm not a producer so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I'm pretty sure the chaos is the reason they are ordered in customs and bought by those who see them. Sometimes the naturalness of it IS the most appealing part, even if that means not getting the usual great hits from the producer it comes from that we're accustomed to. I also imagine it would be much harder, energy draining and just plain awkward to keep reminding the models involved to unnaturally react and just sit there and take it when it's supposed to be a pie "fight". It's why some people like me prefer just a scene where there happens to be more than model rather like some of Anglefan's multigirl scenes, rather than something like the Messygirl Great Race Scene. Although maybe that's not the best example because I actually do love the Messygirl scene too, but you get my point

KakeKid,

I've heard a number of people express similar sentiments re:undirected-pie-fights over the years. And I halfway-share in your problems with them. It can certainly be frustrating when multiple lovely faces never get properly plastered with pie due to the freewheeling nature of the chaos. On the other hand, the freewheeling chaos has its charms for me too too, yielding a pie fight that is much more natural and spontaneous-feeling.

I guess the fence is creasing my ass on this hot button issue of our day!

I like the APPEARANCE of an "out of control" pie fight. In reality I know that in most mainstream films and TV it was the result of careful planning and often multiple takes, often involving cleaning up the "receiver" before the next shot.

In reality few film makers are going to risk a camera getting hit with a pie in an out of control fight and if the camera tries to zoom in from the safety of the sidelines chances are good that a participant will block shots.

I think Life magazine said it took four days to shoot the four-minute pie fight in "The Great Race". Most of our fetish producers can't afford that.

Oh yeah, it's been happening since forever. My personal opinion is that it's a result of both over-preparing too many pies for the scene and abandoning directorial responsibilities midway through the shoot. This'll leave your talent (who, if they're good, will be craving direction throughout the entire process) to fend for themselves and the natural instinct will be "Well I've hit her in the face with a pie 15 times already. How about somewhere else?"

But then that's where the unfortunate side of WAM production comes into play. In TV and movies, actors get days or weeks to rehearse and make sure every step and every move is perfect come shoot day. In indie WAM production where talent charges by the hour, you get maybe 15 minutes and let Jesus take the wheel. And it's not like you can stop rolling in the middle of a giant pie fight to correct something unless you want jump cuts and continuity issues everywhere.

It really makes you appreciate the work and talent of those TV and movie actors to execute our favorite classic pie fights to perfection. Take away the time, skill, and direction and you're left with a bunch of girls who had probably never thrown a pie in their lives before acting like...a bunch of girls who had never thrown a pie in their lives.

I personally hate filming pie fight scenes, especially if the models are new!!! I've had a couple good ones with new models, and I've had some bad ones. I like to have a model film at least 3 solos before filming with another model in a pie fight. It sucks seeing a perfectly good pie go to the shoulder or have half of it go on the floor.

I found long ago that if I had people doing things to each other both at the same time, you generally get poor footage as they tend to face each other instead of the camera, and then all you can really see is arms blocking the view of the actual messing. So I always tell our people to take turn and turn about, remember to face at least partially to the camera, allow the other person to do whatever she's doing to them, and then get their own back tit-for-tat, rather than a frenzy of both together.

For me being able to see the actual mess being applied is the grail. In an all out frenzy you can't really see what is happening to any specific person clearly, mostly you just see the results, but miss seeing the actual clean-to-messing. This doesn't just apply to pies but to any situation where two people are messing each other up. Turn and turn about gives much better viewing, and can still be quite spontaneous, as the first recipient accpts her fate but then exacts her revenge.

Anything more than 2 models in one scene is really tough... and REALLY expensive.
There's a reason why I've only done a couple 3-girl scenes over my entire 20-year run. The first was the "Silent Movie" scene with Deana and friends, which was super planned out and took basically an entire afternoon. (3 hours? More? Back then the girls were happy to get $100 for that. I miss those days!) That was definitely me trying to do The Great Race on a shoestring budget. Fun but exhausting. Today I would NEVER attempt that... I'm too old!

The second (SS58) was VERY organic (because Jill's sister absolutely wanted to participate, and Jill wanted to drag her friend in too) and honestly came out amazing. And it was cheap! Like, INSANELY cheap by today's standards. (It cost me less than ANY one-model shoot has since.... 2021?!? )
But that was also really planned out, and I made sure to set up each gag first. I also remember I only had space for 20 pies, so halfway through I went back to the kitchen and brought out the rest! Came out great, but you'd be amazed how quickly you go through pies with 3 girls.

And finally, Elle & friends was just supposed to be a 2-girl shoot... But then Elle pied me, I pied her back, her friends pied her TOO.... And it devolved into chaos. Honestly, the best of both worlds... All the "real pies" had been used so the chaos was just them pie wrestling for a while.

So to summarize: All three were great experiences, and huge sellers... But also super tricky, and these were with some of the best models I ever worked with. If everything's not exactly right in a mutli-girl scene, it can go sideways in a hurry.

Also, these days? You're gonna pay 3X as much for a 3-girl shoot as a single model one. No exceptions. So easily $1000 even for "cheap" models and $2K or more for good ones. Will you recoup that investment? Hard to say. My rule of thumb is usually, "2-girl scenes always sell better than single-girl scenes... But they do they sell TWICE as well? Not often... But they still cost twice as much!"

I understand that the chaos is something that some people are looking for but it seems like sometimes there isnt much direction given to the models. For instance, something to the effect of "Focus on pies straight to the face, that is the money shot. And if you are going to be hit by a pie just stand there and take it, remember that your face WANTS the pie, that is what the goal is. Also approved hit spots are face, top of the head, chest, or ass. Other than the face dont pie the same place twice." Or something to that effect. Is this too much to ask of models? It might be way more complicated than that but some of these scenes just look like there wasnt any explanation of what to really do at all.

That's good direction and you can say that to them once, but in the fog of pie who knows what info will be retained. Keep in mind that a lot of times a model is walking into the spare room studio completely brand new: they might not have met the producer in person, they might not have ever worked with the other models before, they might not have ever been hit with a pie before. All that on top of whatever thoughts are in her head about if this shoot is going to go in a creepy direction, what her footage will be used for, and if she's going to do a good job for the money. It's a lot to expect her to remember the nuances of good pie fight action 10-minutes into the scene. You could give them the script ahead of time, but good luck getting them to study lines and blocking off the clock.

If you really want them to get it right while the camera's rolling, you need to practice, practice, practice. And there are very few--if any--producers who are going to walk through a dry run two or three times while the meter's running. That's why so many scripted scenes have dudes feeding lines in the background or cutting the take to give direction.

The first scripted scene I tried to shoot had a model who, midway through, was supposed to take a pitcher full of chocolate batter and pour it down the pants of her scene partner. It was my climax, my One Must Have Beat, my whole reason to do this. I gave them the script, I ran through the beats before rolling, I even gave a couple of reminders during the scene. And sure enough, as soon as that model picked up the batter, she poured it over the other girl's head. No hesitation, no second though, no time for me to stop her. I was so disappointed--and ever so pissed. It was almost as if they had colluded to ignore that part of the script, but more than likely they were just in a groove and assumed what the next move was.

That's why I'm probably never going to do another scripted food fight scene again. You need trained and dedicated actors, not models. And you need to pay them to memorize lines and blocking. And you'll also need to turn a half day session into a full day just to get a proper rehearsal in. You're not doing that for a fetish model's 2-hour minimum.

Thanks for the props KakeKid. The Messygirl Great Race Pie Fight was a personal investment of 1750. Since The Great Race pie fight scene has been the gold standard of movie pie fights, it was a no brainer to shoot it, but the planets all had to be aligned for us to do it. So in 2023 when we had the mega lineup of girls available at the time, it went into production. The first part was choreographed, then at the end we just let them go wild and got many great fun natural reactions. Making sure the camera was in position to capture it all was the key for the free for all. All in all the 1750 put in was a very wise investment, as this video has become our top seller of all time.

Nice! Does 1750 include the fees for the models? If so, 1750 for 6 girls to go topless...I've either been screwing myself or you have elite negotiating skills.

Yes, that was the bottom line total that also included the outfits and pies.

I was recently re-watching the Aquantics piefight at the end of Nightmare on Gunge Street - and I think this negotiates it skillfully, albeit with some significant editing effort. The 6 or 8 girls have been directed at points to just throw stuff freeform at each other to give that chaotic fight feel, but it's also intercut with choreographed hits - like Sammy Jane holding a pie and being turned between two girls and pied repeatedly until she goes "oh sod it" and pies herself. There are also cutaways to other girls (some portrayed as innocent bystanders) getting hit by pies thrown from behind the cameraman during the fight.

I always put 2 instructions in my scripts and it alleviates the chaos.

1. Pies to the face only

2. Dialogue between each pie

The dialogue thing insures they go slower.

Very interesting views here! Personally I'm not too fussed between scripted or unscripted, chaotic or organised. A 'fight' isn't really what I want to see, I want to see girls who enjoy being messy also making other girls messy, and enjoying being on camera in doing so. The 'fight' becomes more of 'if you're in the firing line, let it be, and let viewers see, but get them back!'. In a 'fight', the aim is to make others messy and often to avoid being hit, the latter not really offering much for viewers. I'm sure different models need different levels of direction, but surely the key is portraying somebody who enjoys the scene they're filming and who enjoys capturing all the best bits on camera? That said, I'm no producer..

Rich, this is wild, as these two scenes are some of my all time favorites from you! SS58 was one of the first where my jaw was on the floor with those three girls. And the Elle and friends scene was so authentically shot, hilarious, and sexy as hell. I really liked the part where Elle gets dragged into frame and reluctantly pied. It looks like she wasn't planning for that to happen at all.

this is one reason, in particular, that I love pushed pies.

JY

Elle's original volume is great, so it was awesome to see her back. I always thought Erin from that pie fight scene was a real cutie, too, I was pleased whenever she'd make a surprise appearance in a volume.

I completely agree with you. I'm fine with the idea of it building up into a controlled chaos kind of situation, but the whole point of it being a pie fight is as the end result of growing tension (at least in my opinion). I was brought into it with "Ariel's Pie Shop" and "12 Girl Pie Fight", so I like it when it's more how it happened with the Great Race Pie Fight -- 1 on 1, an errant throw, somebody stays too clean -- that kind of a thing, although I do like the idea of later on it having formerly united fronts turning on each other.

I believe Cali Logan has a three-way pie fight that has the style that you're probably referring to.